The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 21, 2018, 02:00:31 PM

Title: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 21, 2018, 02:00:31 PM
https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration (https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration)

So
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Universal Acceleration (UA) is a theory of gravity in the Flat Earth Model. UA asserts that the Earth is accelerating 'upward' at a constant rate of 9.8m/s^2.

This produces the effect commonly referred to as "gravity".

Except that the acceleration due to gravity is easily measured and is not 'Universal' everywhere on the Earth's surface. The reason for these small but perfectly measurable differences is predicted by Newton's law of gravitation but not by the UA. Increases or decreases in height affect the radius to the centre of a spherical Earth and local fluctuations in the density and thickness of the Earth's crust determine the effect of mass. There are other factors (see the link 1 below). In UA such factors would not have any effect indeed the UA theory should predict acceleration to be exactly equal everywhere in the world. Data to support Newtonian gravitational theory is readily available (link 2).

1. http://www.geol-amu.org/notes/m10-1-1.htm (http://www.geol-amu.org/notes/m10-1-1.htm)

2. New Scientist:
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Mount Nevado Huascarán in Peru has the lowest gravitational acceleration, at 9.7639 m/s2, while the highest is at the surface of the Arctic Ocean, at 9.8337 m/s2.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24068-gravity-map-reveals-earths-extremes/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24068-gravity-map-reveals-earths-extremes/)

Again, the key here is that fluctuations of +/-0.1 m/s2 are easily measurable using the most basic of kit found in any classroom. Light gate timers, meter sticks, that sort of thing. So if you don't believe NASA or New Scientist or the hundreds of other institutions who measure such data and who's errors are way below the statistically significant limit, go and do the experiment yourself.

In any event, I would say that the non-uniform value for acceleration due to gravity is one of the easiest ways to argue that FE theory is inadequate as a model. Again, any FE's who have data to the contrary and who can describe their methods and the apparatus used, please post here. I would be glad to repeat the experiment to verify or refute.

Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Curious Squirrel on June 21, 2018, 02:05:25 PM
https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Gravitation

Please ensure you've read through the wiki. While I might not agree that this is in any way an answer, you'd do best to address what they provide. If they provide an answer on the wiki and you ignore it, you won't get anywhere with discussions in other locations in the fora.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 21, 2018, 02:11:10 PM

In any event, I would say that the non-uniform value for acceleration due to gravity is one of the easiest ways to argue that FE theory is inadequate as a model. Again, any FE's who have data to the contrary and who can describe their methods and the apparatus used, please post here. I would be glad to repeat the experiment to verify or refute.

this is answered in the wiki.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 21, 2018, 02:50:41 PM
Look, your link sent me to a single sentence! I'm not being funny but anyone can make up words and claim that they represent an actual phenomena. Without any actual data this statement is simply that, a statement, made by a person (unknown). Do you not see that?

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Celestial Gravitation is a part of some Flat Earth models which involve an attraction by all objects of mass on earth to the heavenly bodies. This is not the same as Gravity, since Celestial Gravitation does not imply an attraction between objects of mass on Earth. Celestial Gravitation accounts for tides and other gravimetric anomalies across the Earth's plane.

Again, we must establish some boundaries for what is allowed into the debate. Otherwise the debate becomes meaningless. If the wiki is to be valued it must link to the data and the studies that establish the theory, otherwise YOU must do that here. Otherwise it is not a theory, it is a 'Hypothesis'. There is a huge difference.

It is not reasonable to expect someone to go looking for a phenomena so unusual and without reference points that it only appears on other flat earth boards. That is a red flag right there. If the wiki cannot elaborate in any way how celestial gravity works in comparison to Newtonian celestial gravity then why should any reader expect that the information exists elsewhere. Please can we stick to tested provable Physics with up to date data to back it up.

Curious squirrel. I have searched the internet, I am 5 pages into Google and can't find a single reference to a study of celestial gravitation. Could whoever wrote the wiki (the gatekeeper of such information?) please update the wiki with some links. Otherwise I respectfully suggest that this case is closed wrt UA. 
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Curious Squirrel on June 21, 2018, 03:05:59 PM
Look, your link sent me to a single sentence! I'm not being funny but anyone can make up words and claim that they represent an actual phenomena. Without any actual data this statement is simply that, a statement, made by a person (unknown). Do you not see that?

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Celestial Gravitation is a part of some Flat Earth models which involve an attraction by all objects of mass on earth to the heavenly bodies. This is not the same as Gravity, since Celestial Gravitation does not imply an attraction between objects of mass on Earth. Celestial Gravitation accounts for tides and other gravimetric anomalies across the Earth's plane.

Again, we must establish some boundaries for what is allowed into the debate. Otherwise the debate becomes meaningless. If the wiki is to be valued it must link to the data and the studies that establish the theory, otherwise YOU must do that here. Otherwise it is not a theory, it is a 'Hypothesis'. There is a huge difference.

It is not reasonable to expect someone to go looking for a phenomena so unusual and without reference points that it only appears on other flat earth boards. That is a red flag right there. If the wiki cannot elaborate in any way how celestial gravity works in comparison to Newtonian celestial gravity then why should any reader expect that the information exists elsewhere. Please can we stick to tested provable Physics with up to date data to back it up.

Curious squirrel. I have searched the internet, I am 5 pages into Google and can't find a single reference to a study of celestial gravitation. Could whoever wrote the wiki (the gatekeeper of such information?) please update the wiki with some links. Otherwise I respectfully suggest that this case is closed wrt UA.
If you check my post history I haven't referred to FE as a theory in a LONG time, because FE IS a hypothesis in the scientific sense. Most holes are 'patched' with things like this. The studies you can't find on celestial gravitation? There aren't any. For all intents and purposes it's an answer given to explain the phenomena that has been observed. Although some will debate whether the phenomena is even real, and there ARE a few other explanations for said phenomena. FE proponents would likely point to their lack of funding as to why there is nothing that has been done/published to verify this effect.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: edby on June 21, 2018, 03:11:10 PM
I have a puzzle about celestial gravitation. If the earth is accelerating upwards at 9.8 ms2, then so most the moon and stars and sun, otherwise there would be a crash.

Yet celestial gravitation is invoked to explain the different observed accelerations. In that case, why don't the heavens crash down anyway?
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 21, 2018, 03:14:55 PM
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The studies you can't find on celestial gravitation? There aren't any. For all intents and purposes it's an answer given to explain the phenomena that has been observed.

Well my point is that when people who have an exhaustively tested theory that matches all observations and experimental data. That IS a theory.
To come along and attempt to overthrow such a theory one might expect an even bigger body of evidence with even greater statistical certainty around the data. To NOT EVEN HAVE DATA in a foundational part of the theory is unforgivable. Until UA can be argued with ANY DATA at all it should remain a belief, a posit a musing. It should not have its own personal place on a preeminent FE website who's function is to try an educate people that the RE model is wrong. The two theories are not even in the same ballpark.

Just a question, but why do you DISbelieve the data and the evidence that DOES exist for the RE model?
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: juner on June 21, 2018, 03:25:47 PM
long paragraphs about topics that have been covered repeatedly, while not asking a question in FE Q&A

I see you still haven't paid attention to any of the warnings, read the wiki/FAQ, or learned how to use the search function. Moving this to FED in the event anyone wants to debate it.

This is not a FE Q&A post. I will give you one last warning, then it is a short ban to give you time to maybe familiarize yourself with the aforementioned.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Curious Squirrel on June 21, 2018, 03:50:25 PM
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The studies you can't find on celestial gravitation? There aren't any. For all intents and purposes it's an answer given to explain the phenomena that has been observed.

Well my point is that when people who have an exhaustively tested theory that matches all observations and experimental data. That IS a theory.
To come along and attempt to overthrow such a theory one might expect an even bigger body of evidence with even greater statistical certainty around the data. To NOT EVEN HAVE DATA in a foundational part of the theory is unforgivable. Until UA can be argued with ANY DATA at all it should remain a belief, a posit a musing. It should not have its own personal place on a preeminent FE website who's function is to try an educate people that the RE model is wrong. The two theories are not even in the same ballpark.

Just a question, but why do you DISbelieve the data and the evidence that DOES exist for the RE model?
I hope you haven't somehow come under the impression I believe in the FE hypothesis as anything more than an interesting thought experiment. You asked a question that had an already provided answer in the wiki. I do my best to assist with such threads when they show up in Q&A as a service to our hosts, the Flat Earth Society. As I said originally, you not thinking it's very strong, does not stop it from being the provided answer.

As for the rest, the general answer for the FE side, would be because they haven't checked the data themselves. If they step off a chair, they see the ground rise up to meet them. Evidence of the UA. This empirical evidence proves that gravity as modern science presents it cannot exist. So they must seek other reasons for certain phenomena. Thus, Celestial Gravitation. But without funding they cannot do anything to more thoroughly confirm the hypothesis. So it sits as being one of a number of potential solutions to the problem of gravimetric anomalies (and the tides). It just happens to be the one espoused within this sites wiki.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 21, 2018, 03:56:43 PM
celestial gravition is a force acting upon earth from the heavenly bodies, similar to what RE would call gravity.  its is a very small force, that increases as you increase elevation on earth (closer to celestial bodies).  it has a negative affect against the forces of UA.  this is why an objects weight would be less at the top of mount everest than at sea level.

and before you go on an ask how celestial gravitation works....well, we dont know.  the same as RE dont know how gravity works.  it can be measured/calculated but how it works is unknown, so not that big of leap that CG wouldnt be fully understood either, but it is observed.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 22, 2018, 09:50:46 AM
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empirical evidence proves that gravity as modern science presents it cannot exist

This is simply a lie. I am sorry but there are few theories that exist that have been as thoroughly tested and confirmed as Newton's Law of gravitation. It is a force of attraction that exists between all MASS. The attraction increases as the product of the two masses and reduces as the square of the distance between them. As such this theory predicts that the effect of stars on the Earth is virtually zero whereas the effect of local altitude fluctuations on Earth are significant and match the predictions made by the theory. The UA has no formula and no data and should not even be considered as it simply cannot be considered alongside Newton's law of gravitation. Science has a theory that works in every situation and UA has no theory, no data and absolutely no place in the debate until its absolutely contrary assertions have some evidence behind them. FE and UA theory are together presented in a scientific light. As such they must obey the rules of the scientific method. The price of admission is hard data.

It seems to me that what FE attempts to make the theories fit the conclusion, but without data. What RE theory did was analyse data in order to form theories and finally a conclusion. That is the correct way round.

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not that big of leap that CG wouldn't be fully understood either, but it is observed

BUT IT ISN'T OBSERVED....IT JUST ISN'T! As evidenced by the TOTAL LACK OF DATA.

Whereas I, or indeed any careful person with some scientific skills CAN ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATE THE UNIVERSAL LAW OF GRAVITATION.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiehallion_experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiehallion_experiment)

The famous Schiehallion experiment involved measuring the deviation of a plumb line placed next to the mountain Schiehallion in Perthshire (I used to live there). The deviation gives an instant indication of the evident force between masses and the numbers are in line with the aforementioned equation. Only when you can do such a direct observational experiment can you say something is 'observed'.

The reason gravity is less on top of a mountain is for this reason, not Celestial Gravitation which is yet to be detected and has no mechanism to explain it.

Guys, while you refuse to use the scientific method in your arguments you cannot co-opt its language, form and structure as if it is your own. I have comprehensively shown that there is no case to answer in this matter and as such will not be returning to this thread. I am very willing to engage in 'debate' but only when the most basic norms of establishing fact and fiction are adhered to. I engage in these debates so that the baseless assertions of FE theory are challenged in a manner that illustrates the difference between the scientific method and pure speculation. I do not say 'pure speculation' as an insult. I say it as an absolute fact in the case of celestial gravitation as pertains to UA. Without data or direct measurement that is all you have.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 22, 2018, 10:41:43 AM
Of course we have direct measurement.  The accelleration (undistinguishable from gravity) is more at sea level than higher up on mountains.  This is a fact and observed many times. 
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 22, 2018, 11:21:07 AM
Of course we have direct measurement.  The accelleration (undistinguishable from gravity) is more at sea level than higher up on mountains.  This is a fact and observed many times.

As I already stated, this is a function of the inverse square law. The force of attraction reduces as the square of the distance. This is Newtonian gravitation and has been measured. The size of the reduction agrees with the formula.

You are proposing the reason is Celestial gravitation without showing measurements or observation of this affect. To cite 'observed' you need an independant demonstration similar to the Schiehallion experiment for Newtonian gravitation. Note, Celestial gravitation must be substantial if it is affecting the result for gravity on Earth, so show me the data!

Not that it is my job to design an experiment to furnish data but one might start by setting up measurement stations in different countries where fluctuations are observed. One might then study the orientation of the stellar objects above and calculate the mean distance to the nearest and thus most influential (assuming CG proposes a link with distance). As the stars move in the sky one could plot the relationship between mean distance and gravity on Earth. If the stars are the source one might also consider other features such as mass.....hmmm this is beginning to sound familiar. If a relationship exists (i.e. straight line through the origin of a graph) bingo!

Now such a theory would also have to explain why the gravity at a particular location DOESN'T CHANGE while the configuration of stars above does, since that IS what we would see. Curious that, isn't it. How could one explain such an anomaly? The theory you propose does not stand up to the barest scrutiny. It is insulting that so little effort is put in and yet you make your statements with such conviction.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 22, 2018, 11:35:51 AM
Of course we have direct measurement.  The accelleration (undistinguishable from gravity) is more at sea level than higher up on mountains.  This is a fact and observed many times.

As I already stated, this is a function of the inverse square law. The force of attraction reduces as the square of the distance. This is Newtonian gravitation and has been measured. The size of the reduction agrees with the formula.

You are proposing the reason is Celestial gravitation without showing measurements or observation of this affect. To cite 'observed' you need an independant demonstration similar to the Schiehallion experiment for Newtonian gravitation. Note, Celestial gravitation must be substantial if it is affecting the result for gravity on Earth, so show me the data!

Not that it is my job to design an experiment to furnish data but one might start by setting up measurement stations in different countries where fluctuations are observed. One might then study the orientation of the stellar objects above and calculate the mean distance to the nearest and thus most influential (assuming CG proposes a link with distance). As the stars move in the sky one could plot the relationship between mean distance and gravity on Earth. If the stars are the source one might also consider other features such as mass.....hmmm this is beginning to sound familiar. If a relationship exists (i.e. straight line through the origin of a graph) bingo!

Now such a theory would also have to explain why the gravity at a particular location DOESN'T CHANGE while the configuration of stars above does, since that IS what we would see. Curious that, isn't it. How could one explain such an anomaly? The theory you propose does not stand up to the barest scrutiny. It is insulting that so little effort is put in and yet you make your statements with such conviction.

you sure are confident about gravity without even knowing how gravity works, interesting.

the effect of celestial gravitation is rather easy to observe.  first off gravity = accelleration as defined by Einstein.  are you saying Einstein is wrong?  i guess that is probably an important point to clarify, as based on my experience with you so far you tend to argue laws accordingy to you and not science.  so lets clarify that first please.   do you agree with Einstein's equivalence principle?  if so, then we can proceed.

all the experiments you are noting wouldnt be able to tell the difference between gravity and acceleration, so those tests are equally valid to demonstrating the variable accelleration at sea level vs mount everest.  these values are well published (as you know) and no need to go out and remeasure anything.  i think even you should be able to agree with that.

the only difference between the celestial gravitation and RE Gravity as it relates to the variability is that RE Gravity bases their calculation based on the center of gravity outward, CG bases it as distance from the stars.  and the same results.  sea level = 1g, higher elevations <1g. 

as far as position of stars affecting the values???  seriously, you are really just trying to find anything to argue on when nothing is there.  do you really think there is variability in the distribution of starts to affect the values???  look up in the sky next time its dark, stars are pretty consistently spread accross the sky

now try and engage in some intellectual honesty in your posts going forward, you are intentionally confusing discussion points to try and make your side of the argument appear more valid, and its very obvious to everyone reading your posts.  its ok to just say you dont know....i.e. the mechanics of RE Gravity are NOT known (same with CG)...unless you recently discovered how and then i will apologize to you are your forthcoming Nobel prize

full disclosure:  i dont subscribe to the UA model, but my objections have nothing to do with the issues you bring up, all of which are very easily dismissed and explained by the theory and observations.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 22, 2018, 01:36:35 PM
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you sure are confident about gravity without even knowing how gravity works, interesting.

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the mechanics of RE Gravity are NOT known (same with CG)...unless you recently discovered how and then i will apologize to you are your forthcoming Nobel prize

Look, I am confident that the relationship known as Newton's Law of gravitation accurately describes the relationship between Force, mass and distance. All measurable properties. I have a defined relationship that can be demonstrated in the lab. I am saying that gravity (or acceleration due to gravity, yes the one causes the other) is caused by mass. What you are saying is entirely unclear. You have no defined relationship, just a slogan 'CG'.

By the way, you have the audacity to say I am not engaging with 'intellectual honesty' when you arrive entirely empty handed to the debate with some lame notion of CG being a bit like Newtonian gravity but pointing the other way....give me an actual break!!!

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as far as position of stars affecting the values???  seriously, you are really just trying to find anything to argue on when nothing is there.  do you really think there is variability in the distribution of starts to affect the values???  look up in the sky next time its dark, stars are pretty consistently spread accross the sky

This statement shows that you do not understand the scientific method. It is simply not adequate to say the stars have a significant affect on objects on Earth and yet not explain exactly what properties of the stars cause the affect while also saying there is no point in measuring said effect. What kind of intellectual honesty is that? A scientist would say, 'It is proposed that the stars effect a force on objects on Earth, let us measure these forces under differing circumstances'.

For example, If, as you say, the sky is homogenous then the main factor influencing CG will be the proximity to the stars.

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CG bases it as distance from the stars.  and the same results.  sea level = 1g, higher elevations <1g. 

Why then can we measure differing values for g at various positions of equal altitude? That would suggest that another factor is at play. And yet CG was the only factor suggested to explain the anomaly of varying values of g and YOU claim that CG depends only on altitude.

You see the problem?

Once you propose a new hypothesis such as CG it must be tested and explained in a distinct way from the current theory/model. This is what happened with Special relativity. What you are proposing is that CG explains the variation in values of g and indeed that is what we measure when we measure g. But you cannot simply make such a claim without gathering data to support your case. Especially when the current model that encompasses fluctuations in altitude, crust density etc already agrees very closely with the Newtonian model. I think you are very confused and do not understand the most basic aspects of science. Are you a scientist? I am. I have been a qualified Engineer or Scientist in one way or another for nearly 21 years. What is your background? What actual science have you performed in a professional manner? I would respectfully suggest you back off making silly claims about my 'intellectual honesty' when you appear not to understand the difference between an opinion (CG) and a scientific law (NG).

Now, so far as me 'not understanding the mechanics of gravity'....guilty as charged. I never claimed to understand the fundamental cause of gravity. Nobody does. I merely claim to understand the relationship known as Newton's Law of Gravity and can make mathematical predictions about the properties related therein. If I have ever claimed more than this, please quote me. We await a unified theory of everything to join up the theories we have thus far.

Now I am trying to keep this thread about the science. I think anyone reading these threads who understands logic and how it pertains to science will see that. You appear to have no background in Science and little to no understanding of the scientific method. If you did you would understand the criticisms I have made above (and in previous posts). If my posts 'confuse' you (or others) might I suggest it is because you do not fully get the complexity of science needed to explain and justify a proper valid theory.

As they say, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. Proper, valid scientific theories are much rarer and must be defended against all who would attempt to misuse or misrepresent them. That is why I am on the forum. That is why I fundamentally disagree with your points.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 22, 2018, 02:29:08 PM
I am saying that gravity (or acceleration due to gravity, yes the one causes the other) is caused by mass. What you are saying is entirely unclear.

what you are saying is not correct.   an observer cannot tell the difference between gravity and acceleration.  not acceleration due to gravity and no. not one causing the other.  Gravity IS acceleration.  its the main building block of general relativity.  You either accept this as true and can debate UA, or not.  no point going any further if you cannot accept the equivalence principle as a basis for the discussion.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 22, 2018, 03:52:06 PM
Look, if you really want to get into it we would have to move to Einstein's model of space-time. I figured it would be better to keep it simple.

Semantics aside, how can UA account for the varying values of g across the Earth while it is possible to find values for g at equal altitudes that differ. The theory you lay out cannot account for such measurements. That is a significant problem fro the theory. That is where we should keep our attention.

Since space-time came up though. UA makes no prediction of gravitational waves. Einsteins general theory makes no mention of UA. They can't both be right. Indeed, the presence of UA suggests another new gravitational force must be incorporated into the universe. If it is a gravitational force (between masses) then Einsteins theory is either wrong or deficient. Good luck trying to argue that! Especially given the recent detection of gravitational waves. Or is that all a big conspiracy as well?

Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 22, 2018, 04:14:30 PM
Look, if you really want to get into it we would have to move to Einstein's model of space-time. I figured it would be better to keep it simple.

Semantics aside, how can UA account for the varying values of g across the Earth while it is possible to find values for g at equal altitudes that differ. The theory you lay out cannot account for such measurements. That is a significant problem fro the theory. That is where we should keep our attention.

Since space-time came up though. UA makes no prediction of gravitational waves. Einsteins general theory makes no mention of UA. They can't both be right. Indeed, the presence of UA suggests another new gravitational force must be incorporated into the universe. If it is a gravitational force (between masses) then Einsteins theory is either wrong or deficient. Good luck trying to argue that! Especially given the recent detection of gravitational waves. Or is that all a big conspiracy as well?

well actually you are the one that is misquoting and/or misunderstanding Einstein.  Einstein is the one that said gravity is the same as acceleration for the observer within the object (elevator/rocket/earth).  only an outside observer could tell if it was from gravity and not being accelerated.  well we don't have an outside observer, so thus we cant know if the forces holding us down is gravity (RET) or acceleration (UA).

Im sorry you cant understand this, i have really tried to make it simple.  you dont understand the equivalence principle even though it has been explained.  its the foundation of UA and GR.  i would not suggest we get into more complicated aspects of GR since you cant seem to grasp this one.  it explains how UA is possible.   you still havent discovered the biggest hole in UA yet as you are fixated on the wrong points, but will leave that for another day.

as far as varying "gravity", its already been explained how it works in UA, you have chosen to ignore or not accept it, and thats fine.  and you do realize that UA says there is no such thing as gravity, right??  kind of another import part you are missing. 
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: TomInAustin on June 22, 2018, 11:51:12 PM


as far as varying "gravity", its already been explained how it works in UA, you have chosen to ignore or not accept it, and thats fine.  and you do realize that UA says there is no such thing as gravity, right??  kind of another import part you are missing.

You did not explain it, you made a statement and now call it fact.  Please enlight us as to how acceleration at the top of a mountain would be less than at sea level?
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 23, 2018, 12:01:12 AM


as far as varying "gravity", its already been explained how it works in UA, you have chosen to ignore or not accept it, and thats fine.  and you do realize that UA says there is no such thing as gravity, right??  kind of another import part you are missing.

You did not explain it, you made a statement and now call it fact.  Please enlight us as to how acceleration at the top of a mountain would be less than at sea level?

actually i have, a couple of times to be exact.  but you are obviously lacking the ability or desire to read before posting.  you are not new here, you should know better.  but in the spirit of giving, below is one my responses.  feel free to read thru them all, its only 1 pages worth:

celestial gravition is a force acting upon earth from the heavenly bodies, similar to what RE would call gravity.  its is a very small force, that increases as you increase elevation on earth (closer to celestial bodies).  it has a negative affect against the forces of UA.  this is why an objects weight would be less at the top of mount everest than at sea level.

and before you go on an ask how celestial gravitation works....well, we dont know.  the same as RE dont know how gravity works.  it can be measured/calculated but how it works is unknown, so not that big of leap that CG wouldnt be fully understood either, but it is observed.

Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: ICanScienceThat on June 23, 2018, 06:20:30 AM
Is there a "standard" explanation for the Cavendish experiment? The one I've heard personally is, "it's fake."

Here's an apparatus you can buy from Frey's
https://store.schoolspecialty.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?minisite=10029&item=2206303

Here's one from Pasco
https://www.pasco.com/prodCatalog/AP/AP-8215_gravitational-torsion-balance/index.cfm
I even found the instructions
http://www.phys.utk.edu/labs/modphys/Pasco%20Cavendish%20Experiment.pdf
Here's a video of somebody using what looks like the Pasco kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olce8zLE1jM
and another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj0fNxhyh-Y

So not fake right? What's up with that?
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 23, 2018, 12:54:04 PM
You keep banging on about my inability to accept the equivalency of gravity and acceleration.....please quote where I have made any statement that indicates this. YOU are inferring it in order to do that classic thing that FE's do........create a smokescreen around the real issue.

Now back to the main event.....

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you do realize that UA says there is no such thing as gravity, right??  kind of another import part you are missing.

This is EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I keep pointing out that proper Physics is based on observations and measurements. Gravity is an acceleration caused by a FORCE experienced between masses. This has been measured indeed YOU could measure it yourself if you cared to do so.

You recently chastised a poster for not reading previous posts....dude it is you that seems unable to penetrate the simple logic being laid out in previous posts. Remember my reference to the Schiehallion experiment?

Quote
The famous Schiehallion experiment involved measuring the deviation of a plumb line placed next to the mountain Schiehallion in Perthshire (I used to live there). The deviation gives an instant indication of the evident force between masses and the numbers are in line with the aforementioned equation. Only when you can do such a direct observational experiment can you say something is 'observed'.

or we have the classic Cavendish experiment, referenced by the last poster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment)

Now finally, stop dodging the issue.....how is it possible to have a Universal acceleration that is slightly modified by the action of celestial gravitation where the only factor influencing CG is the altitude (i.e. proximity to celestial bodies).

As I have repeatedly pointed out there are gravity measurements that can be quoted for identical altitudes on Earth that are different. UA and CG cannot account for that. However, a system where the mass of the Earth itself attracts objects CAN!

DO you agree that attraction between masses can be demonstrated and that this forms the basis of a universal Law of gravitation between ALL masses. It is you that must answer this before we 'move on'.


Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 23, 2018, 12:56:49 PM
Regarding the Cavendish Experiment, see: http://milesmathis.com/caven.html

It is a highly sensitive experiment that was basically uncontrolled. There are forces much powerful than the alleged affect of gravity that would affect the objects.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 23, 2018, 04:11:01 PM
You keep banging on about my inability to accept the equivalency of gravity and acceleration.....please quote where I have made any statement that indicates this.

Gravity is an acceleration caused by a FORCE experienced between masses.

Good lord man, please stop, you are embarrassing yourself.  I have direct quoted you already pointing out your ignorance....the fact you don't get it is telling


And that is not what gravity is, seriously, have you ever taken physics.  That is neither the Einstein or Newtonian definition... Is it your own (again)?
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 23, 2018, 04:34:02 PM
I am still ploughing my way through this overblown dirge of pseudo scientific technobabble. But the clangers come thick and fast....

Quote
Any force below a certain minimum amount will not be expressed, and will not lead to motion. Especially with the example of the apple, I suspect that the air pressure between the apple and the torsion bar would prevent the calculated force from expressing itself.

This is S2 level Physics i.e. kids aged 12 should be able to point out the flaws in this statement after being taught Forces. Pressure is not a force, rather it is a Force applied equally over all surface of the apple, therefor cancelling each other. That's Newton's First Law. The only forces that would matter here would be un-balanced forces that would seek to accelerate the apple. That is Newton's Second Law. What would be of consequence would be the air that would need to be displaced, which would innevitably occur under the action of a continuous force irrespective of the air pressure.

What credentials has this barely literate (in the scientific sense) Miles Mathis that he is to be stacked up against a legend of the Scientific community. A man famed for his rigour and carefulness in carrying out scientific experiments.

However......let us persist and see what this dude has to say. In the interests of fairness! After all, I am sure we are going to find that he conducted his own experiment in order to uncover the systematic or random errors that might not have been considered by Cavendish.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 23, 2018, 05:12:25 PM
You keep banging on about my inability to accept the equivalency of gravity and acceleration.....please quote where I have made any statement that indicates this.

Gravity is an acceleration caused by a FORCE experienced between masses.

Good lord man, please stop, you are embarrassing yourself.  I have direct quoted you already pointing out your ignorance....the fact you don't get it is telling


And that is not what gravity is, seriously, have you ever taken physics.  That is neither the Einstein or Newtonian definition... Is it your own (again)?

Ok look.....I can see you really have got a thing for this. I wouldn't want to disappoint:

One cannot argue with the Mathematics:

g = -GM/r2 where g = gravitational acceleration, G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the attracting body and r the distance between the two objects.

This is Newton's universal law of gravitation.

If we introduce the second object with mass = m we have,

F = m x g = -GmM/r2 which is equivalent to F = m x a that is to say g is equivalent to a in the classical 'Newtonian' model of gravitation.

We can say this because in Physics we understand properties by their units and if they are vectors by their angular components also. In Physics we essential describe everything in terms of other things. It is rare that any property is expressed so fundamentally that it cannot be reduced any further. A rare example of this would be E=mc2 but even here we are unable to really define what mass or energy actually are. In which case, If I wanted to be a real pedant I could insist on every property being expressed in terms of length, mass, time and charge. That would get pretty tedious, no?!

Anyway, I have generally being referring to this classical model in my descriptions of gravity since it is simple and based on observation.

For a more fundamental treatment of what 'gravity' is we must expand our understanding to field theory, not just that we must alter our perception of the Cartesian co-ordinate system in which objects move.

Einstein thus formulated that objects do not as such 'accelerate' in gravity fields (although IT IS STILL PERFECTLY VALID TO DISCUSS THEM DOING SO AS ALL OBSERVATIONS AGREE WITH THIS CLASSICAL FORM OF GRAVITATIONAL THEORY) rather they travel in straight lines (geodesics) in space-time. Gravity in this model is thus seen as a warping of space time such that a curve is the shortest distance between two points.

Now as I said, 99.9% of the population, including the kids I teach use the Newtonian model of gravitation in order to make rational sense of the concept and discuss it without semantics clouding the wider debate. They do not live in a world of space-time or geodesic curves. Usually, I do not either. Personally I do not see the relevance to the discussion we are having here. There is a whole other thread currently ongoing where I invoke Einsteins general theory of gravitation as a method of supporting RE theory. As a matter of fact, I think it deserves its own thread.

I am not sure if you want me to use classical or modern interpretations of gravity but for the sake of allowing the conversation to flow can we please drop this already?
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 23, 2018, 07:00:26 PM
Regarding the Cavendish Experiment, see: http://milesmathis.com/caven.html

It is a highly sensitive experiment that was basically uncontrolled. There are forces much powerful than the alleged affect of gravity that would affect the objects.

So he continues with....

Quote
At first glance, it must be clear that the walls of Cavendish’s box and shed cannot be ignored. Even if we look at them only from a gravitational perspective, there is simply no way they can be ignored.

Which is exactly why Cavendish didn't ignore them!

....However, just before we dissect this can I just say.......how likely is it that this meticulous scientist, famed for his legendary attention to detail, even among scientists down through the ages...... What tiny chance is there that Cavendish had a 'bad day at the office' and his seminal experiment is actually bogus and masses DON'T actually attract each other (despite all the other DIFFERENT methods available to corroborate the result). Versus the chance that Miles Mathis, some dude who believes the value of Pi is 4, yup you heard right!!! Pi =4 people! Go get your circles out and measure 'em all again cause 2 x pi x r is no longer valid for calculating circumferences. In fact the new equation according to this dufus is C=8xr (go draw a circle and see how that looks!! teeheehee)

So Miles can't get his head around why the walls of the shed can be ignored. I suspect Miles struggles to figure out how to get his porridge out the packet in the morning but here goes........:

1. The walls of a rectangular building are symmetrical, therefor superficially their effects somewhat cancel out. In the case of a circular room the effect would be entirely cancelled and is studied in first year Physics where it is known as a 'shell of mass'.

2. The effect of mass not on the plane of rotation of the experiment would reduce as the cosine until mass directly overhead would have zero affect.
 
3. Wood is approximately 15 times less dense than lead and so would contain much 15 x less mass per unit volume.

and by far the biggest effect

4. The inverse square law; which states that the effect of the force reduces as the square of the distance. So double the distance the effect is quartered. Triple it and the effect is 1/9th etc.

The size of the wooden box was 10ft and the metal balls were 6ft apart which leaves 2ft between the metal balls and the wooden walls at their closest point. However the force of attraction at this point would be perpendicular to the allowed vector of motion. In other words, it would be the next wall over, the one that the ball was currently moving towards that would be doing the attracting that would create a moment of torque. The distance at this point would be 5ft where the force of attraction would be approximately 1/45th of the force (using 1/r2)

And of course don't forget that the attractive force at this point would be exactly cancelled by the opposite wall (behind). Only as the metal ball rotated closer to the wall in front of it would the attraction from that wall begin to exceed that from behind but this would at the same time be reduced as the cosine function due to the restriction of the vector of motion.

Anyhooo......combining these effects I have little doubt in stating that the contribution from the walls would be less by some three orders of magnitude. (combine points 3 and 4 only gives 1/45 x 1/15 = 1/675 even if we IGNORE the symmetry cancellation of point 1. I'm being generous!).


Miles continues with this absolute classic....

Quote
Other experiments are done in massive modern buildings that ......may have any number of different E/M fields, some created by the earth, some created by the iron beams in the buildings, some created by electrical networks in the building. None of this is considered.

Aside from the fact the Miles refers to E/M fields which would indicate 'light' we will assume that he meant electrostatic and magnetic fields. We can immediately eliminate magnetic fields as lead is not a magnetic material so would be unaffected. It is unclear what precautions might have been taken to reduce the effect of static charge build up but given that lead is a conductor it would have been easy to discharge the balls with a simple wire to Earth before running the experiment. Miles cannot confirm that this was not done.

Ok - that's all for now. It is getting tiresome reading this attempted hatchet job that is devoid of proper scientific analysis. It is clear that Miles is unable to conceive how to analyse the phenomena he invokes. Perhaps in future there should be a rule about not referencing crackpots with zero credibility. The type of person I'm thinking of would be schizophrenics who hear voices, people with persecution complexes, people with no Scientific qualifications or background, people who believe pi is anything other than 3.14....that sort of thing?
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on June 23, 2018, 08:07:07 PM
Please go do some basic research on your Ret gravity to at least know some basics, then make sure you actually understand the equivalence principal.  Then come back and we can discuss.  This is just a huge waste of time until you know what we are discussing.  You obviously have no general physics background, which is fine for a lot of things, but not here when discussing UA. 
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 23, 2018, 09:50:08 PM
chirp, chirp.....chirp, chirp.......chirp, chirp.........
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: juner on June 23, 2018, 10:30:19 PM
chirp, chirp.....chirp, chirp.......chirp, chirp.........

So you never did bother to read the rules, did you?

Given that you’re on 4 warnings, have a few days off to read the rules.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: ICanScienceThat on June 24, 2018, 12:11:47 AM
Regarding the Cavendish Experiment, see: http://milesmathis.com/caven.html

It is a highly sensitive experiment that was basically uncontrolled. There are forces much powerful than the alleged affect of gravity that would affect the objects.

That is an extremely long paper. As I work my way through this, may I ask, "Is this paper offered as the official stance of the FES or is this simply an example of a refutation of the Cavendish experiment?"

It seems to me that we do not need this entire document to get to whatever this guy's point may be. If he expresses a stance that you agree with, perhaps you might summarize for me what his strongest point is? I'll keep reading this, but if there is a point in you you would care to defend, I will give it extra attention.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: ICanScienceThat on June 24, 2018, 04:32:24 AM
Regarding the Cavendish Experiment, see: http://milesmathis.com/caven.html

It is a highly sensitive experiment that was basically uncontrolled. There are forces much powerful than the alleged affect of gravity that would affect the objects.

I have finally finished reading that paper. There is a lot in there that one might argue with, but none of that seems to matter a bit. Ultimately, the author does not seem to support the claims of FE. While he clearly makes some novel* claims, he states the following:
"The actual gravitational field is 9.81, and the E/M field is -.01. This means at the level of size of the earth, the gravitational field is more than 1000 times stronger than the E/M field."
And this:
"Both of my fields are contained by Newton's equation, which means my equations and theory show no variance from Newton, except in exceptional circumstances like this."

The author describes gravity as an expansion which is blocked by the presence of matter. All he's really saying about gravity is that he thinks gravity is not so much mass attracting mass but mass not repulsing other mass. Good old double-negative arriving at the same result. According to Miles Mathis, all mass is pushed towards all other mass with an inverse-square relationship.

*novel = the most diplomatic word choice I could come up with
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 24, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
Regarding the Cavendish Experiment, see: http://milesmathis.com/caven.html

It is a highly sensitive experiment that was basically uncontrolled. There are forces much powerful than the alleged affect of gravity that would affect the objects.

So he continues with....

Quote
At first glance, it must be clear that the walls of Cavendish’s box and shed cannot be ignored. Even if we look at them only from a gravitational perspective, there is simply no way they can be ignored.

Which is exactly why Cavendish didn't ignore them!

....However, just before we dissect this can I just say.......how likely is it that this meticulous scientist, famed for his legendary attention to detail, even among scientists down through the ages...... What tiny chance is there that Cavendish had a 'bad day at the office' and his seminal experiment is actually bogus and masses DON'T actually attract each other.

Appeal to Authority Fallacy.

Quote
Versus the chance that Miles Mathis, some dude who believes the value of Pi is 4, yup you heard right!!! Pi =4 people! Go get your circles out and measure 'em all again cause 2 x pi x r is no longer valid for calculating circumferences.

I've argued that Pi can be 4 or some value that is not 3.14... Pi assumes that it is possible for a perfect circle to exist, and that has never been demonstrated. In fact, according to QM, our reality is quantized rather than continuous.

Perfect circles are a HYPOTHESIS.

Quote
Aside from the fact the Miles refers to E/M fields which would indicate 'light' we will assume that he meant electrostatic and magnetic fields. We can immediately eliminate magnetic fields as lead is not a magnetic material so would be unaffected. It is unclear what precautions might have been taken to reduce the effect of static charge build up but given that lead is a conductor it would have been easy to discharge the balls with a simple wire to Earth before running the experiment. Miles cannot confirm that this was not done.

I encourage you to learn more about the world. Lead is affected by magnetism.

https://www.reference.com/science/lead-magnetic-63eae4007856bcb8

Quote
Ferromagnet is the typical name for a material that is naturally magnetic. This is in contrast to a material that simply becomes magnetic for a short while after contact with a magnet as a nail is wont to do after some time stuck to a ferromagnet. Lead has the opposite effect, where it actually repels the magnetic force of an object. This is called diamagnetism.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: ICanScienceThat on June 24, 2018, 04:55:35 PM
Hey guys, cool discussion and all, but I wonder if we can return to how any of this relates to FE and the whole UA vs Newton's law question? Did you notice that Mathis agrees with Newton's law? I mean, if you are accepting Mathis's analysis, then I really don't see how this helps the UA position at all. Please explain that first, and then maybe we can pick at various points in that essay.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on June 30, 2018, 06:28:47 PM
Quote
Ferromagnet is the typical name for a material that is naturally magnetic. This is in contrast to a material that simply becomes magnetic for a short while after contact with a magnet as a nail is wont to do after some time stuck to a ferromagnet. Lead has the opposite effect, where it actually repels the magnetic force of an object. This is called diamagnetism.

Tom, diamagnetism is a residual effect that all materials have. In this respect, I can be considered magnetic, indeed this is how MRI scanners work. However, the problem for the point you make is that diamagnetism is a dynamic not a static effect. In other words you would need an alternating magnetic field NOT a bar magnet (creating a static field) in order to even see this effect. In addition it is several orders of magnitude less than any static magnetic effect that might be observed between ferromagnetic materials (Iron, Cobalt and Nickel). In short, lead cannot in any meaningful way be influenced by the magnetic fields that might have been present in the Cavendish experiment.

Quote
I encourage you to learn more about the world. Lead is affected by magnetism.

Tom, it is you who needs to go learn more about the Physical world you attempt to dissect. I suggest doing what I did, go study Physics for at least 4 years and get a degree. Cutting and pasting quotes who's real meaning you do not penetrate is not helpful to the ongoing discussion and it belies the fundamental lack of real understanding I keep going on about. I make no bones that these exchanges are the point of my efforts on this site. Your ignorance of the basic Physics (and that of your fellow FE devotees) needs called out in every single nook and cranny and I intend to do so with vigour at every opportunity afforded.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 01, 2018, 12:02:44 AM
Quote
Ferromagnet is the typical name for a material that is naturally magnetic. This is in contrast to a material that simply becomes magnetic for a short while after contact with a magnet as a nail is wont to do after some time stuck to a ferromagnet. Lead has the opposite effect, where it actually repels the magnetic force of an object. This is called diamagnetism.

Tom, diamagnetism is a residual effect that all materials have. In this respect, I can be considered magnetic, indeed this is how MRI scanners work. However, the problem for the point you make is that diamagnetism is a dynamic not a static effect. In other words you would need an alternating magnetic field NOT a bar magnet (creating a static field) in order to even see this effect.

Incorrect again, Mr. Physics degree. Here is a video of lead a diamagnetic material being affected by static permanent magnets:

https://youtu.be/G2XECoY3TKs
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Theo on July 01, 2018, 12:14:03 AM
Quote
Ferromagnet is the typical name for a material that is naturally magnetic. This is in contrast to a material that simply becomes magnetic for a short while after contact with a magnet as a nail is wont to do after some time stuck to a ferromagnet. Lead has the opposite effect, where it actually repels the magnetic force of an object. This is called diamagnetism.

Tom, diamagnetism is a residual effect that all materials have. In this respect, I can be considered magnetic, indeed this is how MRI scanners work. However, the problem for the point you make is that diamagnetism is a dynamic not a static effect. In other words you would need an alternating magnetic field NOT a bar magnet (creating a static field) in order to even see this effect.

Incorrect again, Mr. Physics degree. Here is a video of lead being affected by static permanent magnets:

https://youtu.be/G2XECoY3TKs

Pencil leads are made of graphite as the video mentions numerous  times.


https://pencils.com/the-unleaded-pencil/

 There is no lead in pencils. Rather, the core is made up of a non-toxic mineral called graphite. The common name “pencil lead” is due to an historic association with the stylus made of lead in ancient Roman times.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 01, 2018, 12:42:56 AM
Does it matter? Graphite is right next to lead as a diamagnetic material.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism

Quote
Diamagnetic materials are repelled by a magnetic field; an applied magnetic field creates an induced magnetic field in them in the opposite direction, causing a repulsive force.

...

Notable diamagnetic materials[3]
Material   χv [× 10−5 (SI units)]
Superconductor   −105
Pyrolytic carbon   −40.9
Bismuth   −16.6
Mercury   −2.9
Silver   −2.6
Carbon (diamond)   −2.1
Lead   −1.8
Carbon (graphite)   −1.6
Copper   −1.0
Water   −0.91

In the video I posted we had a static permanent magnet and a diamagnetic material that was clearly interacting with it.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: rabinoz on July 01, 2018, 05:09:46 AM
Does it matter? Graphite is right next to lead as a diamagnetic material.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism

Quote
Diamagnetic materials are repelled by a magnetic field; an applied magnetic field creates an induced magnetic field in them in the opposite direction, causing a repulsive force.
...
Notable diamagnetic materials[3]
Material   χv [× 10−5 (SI units)]
Lead   −1.8
Copper   −1.0

In the video I posted we had a static permanent magnet and a diamagnetic material that was clearly interacting with it.
And don't you think that those designing this sort of experiment might know far more about than you might about the precautions necessary?

Here is one fairly modern experiment:
The Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A, The BIPM measurements of the Newtonian constant of gravitation, G (http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/372/2026/20140032).
This one uses "four test masses of Cu–0.7% Te free-machining alloy", which greatly reduces any stray torque due to variations in the already small magnetic field and movement of near objects. Fixed objects can have no effect.

There are many problems in the measurement of G hence the work continues. 
But the fact remains that after a hundred of more experiments the current value of 6.674 08×10−11 m3 kg−1 s−2 is within 1% of the value of 6.74 x 10-11 N m2/kg2 from Henry Cavendish's value.
He must have done something right. Now please present some flat-earth measurements with even that repeatability.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on July 01, 2018, 10:35:36 AM
Quote
Incorrect again, Mr. Physics degree. Here is a video of lead a diamagnetic material being affected by static permanent magnets:

Tom, congratulations are certainly in order for finding an example of magnetic interaction with a non ferromagnetic material that can be observed without creating superconducting effects by chilling to -80 degrees Celsius.

Quote
A thin slice of pyrolytic graphite, which is an unusually strong diamagnetic material, can be stably floated in a magnetic field, such as that from rare earth permanent magnets. This can be done with all components at room temperature, making a visually effective demonstration of diamagnetism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism#Levitation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism#Levitation)

The main problem still remains however, achieving observable interactions requires very specific, very highly engineered materials. In the case of an MRI scanner a very high power alternating magnetic field induced electrically. In the case of static magnets we require several very powerful rare earth magnets placed within 1mm from the material to achieve a very, very weak effect.

Now back to the original context, Cavendish did not have rare earth magnets in his experimental setup. He had the Earth's magnetic field. The difference in field strength is vast. A single rare Earth magnet typicaly achieves 1-1.2 Teslas whereas the Earth's magnetic field ranges from 25 -45 micro Teslas. This is a ratio of some 1:22000.

As I said in my original post, orders of magnitude different.

I will concede that I was not aware that diamagnetism could be achieved outside of chilled superconducting experiments (which I did myself once) but the effect is almost un-measurable and requires a stack of rare earth magnets. I only ever had 1! I did try to attract various materials including my pencil lead and it didn't work.

What is annoying about this exchange is the way it quickly diverges from the main idea and to focus instead on the extreme limits of esoteric areas of science. I freely admit I don't knot know EVERYTHING about science. Not even close. But I certainly know enough to know that magnetism played no part in influencing Cavendish's experiment. Your problem is that you have google at your disposal but not the sense to know that the examples you managed to find do not support the case. The best you can do is to find holes in my knowledge repository. As a Teacher of Physics with a normal degree and some years in Engineering you will find plenty holes in my knowledge. The difference is I know my limits. You, however, are passing yourself off as some kind of authority on this stuff when you clearly have no picture of science as a whole. The inconsistencies you find do not lead anywhere except further from the original argument.

Anyway, I concede I was not aware that in some extreme circumstances non ferromagnetic materials can show other magnetic (diamagnetic) properties.

From your end, can you concede that such properties are not significant in influencing measurements of g. Then we can continue back to the main question.

Does gravity exist between all masses?

And finally, how can UA be explained in the context of celestial gravitation when we can observe differing values of g at equal altitudes on the Earth's surface? This is the point of the thread.

Gravity has been measured countless times with greater and greater accuracy. I am actually angry at myself for even entertaining the idea of defending Cavendish's original experiment. This point is not a reasonable one for discussion. Lets stick to the theories FE proposes. How do THEY work. At least gravity has a long tradition of measurement through experimentation. Celestial gravity is just a vague notion concocted to plug yet another glaring hole in FE theory.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: SiDawg on July 02, 2018, 04:44:19 AM
Quote
Pi assumes that it is possible for a perfect circle to exist, and that has never been demonstrated

Huh?? This is like saying "it's never been demonstrated that perspective lines meet at infinity". You're kind of just questioning maths in general...

Parallel lines never meet. A plot of points an equal distance around a central point forms a circle.

You can debate the language I've used, but the concepts they describe are beyond debate. They just ARE. They don't require demonstration. Interestingly enough, they're both examples of "converging infinite series". Neither of them can be demonstrated: how can you demonstrate infinity?? Argh.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: rabinoz on July 02, 2018, 06:31:48 AM
Quote
Euclid's Elements
Book I
Definition 23
Parallel straight lines are straight lines which, being in the same plane and being produced indefinitely in both directions, do not meet one another in either direction.

Euclid's Elements, Book I, Definition 23 (http://webspace.ship.edu/mrcohe/inside-out/vu1/d_joyce/elements/bookI/defI23.html)
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2018, 06:47:38 AM
Quote
Euclid's Elements
Book I
Definition 23
Parallel straight lines are straight lines which, being in the same plane and being produced indefinitely in both directions, do not meet one another in either direction.

Euclid's Elements, Book I, Definition 23 (http://webspace.ship.edu/mrcohe/inside-out/vu1/d_joyce/elements/bookI/defI23.html)

The Ancient Greeks
Animal Reproduction 101


Flies spontaneously generate from rotting meat.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: rabinoz on July 02, 2018, 08:22:03 AM
Quote
Euclid's Elements
Book I
Definition 23
Parallel straight lines are straight lines which, being in the same plane and being produced indefinitely in both directions, do not meet one another in either direction.

Euclid's Elements, Book I, Definition 23 (http://webspace.ship.edu/mrcohe/inside-out/vu1/d_joyce/elements/bookI/defI23.html)

The Ancient Greeks
Animal Reproduction 101


Flies spontaneously generate from rotting meat.
That is an incorrect deduction from the observation of flies seeming to "spontaneously generate from rotting meat".
And before you criticise Aristotle too much, just consider that the idea of the spontaneous generation of flies, fleas, etc was not seriously challenged till 1668 and not finally disproved until 1859 by Louis Pasteur.

But you make the incorrect deduction that the "Earth is not a Globe" from the observation that "the earth looks locally flat".
I see little difference, but Euclid's "Definition 23" was not a deduction based on an observation but was  Euclid's definition of "Parallel straight lines".

Hence your post seems totally irrelevant.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2018, 08:46:04 AM
The Ancient Greeks didn't say "seem to." They said that creatures such as flies spontaneously generated from the unliving.

Quote from: Aristotile
Now there is one property that animals are found to have in common with plants. For some plants are generated from the seed of plants, whilst other plants are self-generated through the formation of some elemental principle similar to a seed; and of these latter plants some derive their nutriment from the ground, whilst others grow inside other plants ... So with animals, some spring from parent animals according to their kind, whilst others grow spontaneously and not from kindred stock; and of these instances of spontaneous generation some come from putrefying earth or vegetable matter, as is the case with a number of insects, while others are spontaneously generated in the inside of animals out of the secretions of their several organs.

The point is entirely relevant. The Ancient Greeks made a lot of assumptions about the world to a criminal level, without the necessity of evidence of fact.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: rabinoz on July 02, 2018, 09:21:47 AM
The point is entirely relevant.
Not at all relevant. Euclid's Elements Book I Definition 23 is his definition of "parallel straight lines", so is making no "assumptions about the world".
You might dispute his definition but that's quite a different matter.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
The Ancient Greeks made a lot of assumptions about the world to a criminal level, without the necessity of evidence of fact.
That's your opinion but where their "assumptions about the world" have not been supported by later evidence those "assumptions" have been discarded.

But many things that you claim are "assumptions about the world . . . . . . without the necessity of evidence of fact" often did have evidence, though they could have mis-interpreted some of that evidence.

But this seems way off the topic "Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:"
All I did was quote Euclid's definition of "parallel straight lines". 
That hardly seems justification for your diving into "spontaneous generation" and "Greek assumptions". A definition can never be classified as an assumption.

Now what about the question of "Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation?" Forget Miles Mathis, he's got nothing to do with any modern experiments.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Round Eyes on July 05, 2018, 07:46:44 PM

Now what about the question of "Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation?"

what specifically are you asking? 

you have to remember that all laws/math that you are using to try and prove a round earth were all developed based on the same earth that we are claiming to be flat.  a lot of the math would be the same, but the fact the math was done based on an assumed "round" earth is where some errors can occur.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: Jon56 on July 08, 2018, 09:51:07 PM

Now what about the question of "Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation?"

what specifically are you asking? 

you have to remember that all laws/math that you are using to try and prove a round earth were all developed based on the same earth that we are claiming to be flat.  a lot of the math would be the same, but the fact the math was done based on an assumed "round" earth is where some errors can occur.
Hi I hope you can help as you seem to be well versed in FE gravity. I’m new to this whole thing and studied Newtonian physics for a while for working out trajectories and various other things.
Newton came up with his theory’s to explain the movement of the observable planets in a simple way that could be tested by experimenting and observations. It all works rather well in a local environment i.e short range.
Eisenstein and his theory of relativity and later Stephen Hawkings works on a unified theory of gravity and the distortion of space time now works for the larger part of the universe we still have issues with quantum gravity but hey ho! At least we can work understand the workings of the bigger picture.
Now I studied this stuff and would like to study the FE models of UA and CG could you either point me to some stuff to read up on or explain it in a way I can make some kind of sense out of it all.
I’ve tried to follow this thread but to be honest there seems to be a whole lot of missing information.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: rabinoz on July 09, 2018, 12:30:18 AM

Now what about the question of "Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation?"

what specifically are you asking? 

you have to remember that all laws/math that you are using to try and prove a round earth were all developed based on the same earth that we are claiming to be flat.  a lot of the math would be the same, but the fact the math was done based on an assumed "round" earth is where some errors can occur.
I don't know what math could change.
At the time when Galilee Galileo did his experiments with ramps and later when Isaac Newton, Robert Hooke and others did numerous experiments with rsmps and pendulums etc, there was no thought of the earth being flat.
But I fail to see how that could affect the results of those experiments.
The earth being flat may changed Newton's deductions from the variation of g with altitude and may have left the poor fellow mystified as to why g varied the way it does with latitude.

And the earth's being flat may have affect his deductions from the, possibly apocryphal, apple and the moon. In Newton's day it had been accepted for some 1500 year that the moon orbited the Earth and even the distance was known with quite reasonable accuracy.
Newton realised that the same force kept the moon from flying away as caused the apple to fall to earth.
And I might point out that Newton's "Laws of Motion" alone prevent the moon from circling the way flat-earthers seem to assume.
So a flat earth would have changed the deductions from these observations but there was no significant belief in the flat earth then anyway, so why would it be considered?

But then we get to Henry Cavendish in 1787/88, again before your flat earth was "invented".
He measured the forces between known masses a known distance apart, an experiment that has been carried out probably a hundred times since with similar results.
How would the earth's being flat or spherical have affected the raw results of all these experiments and essentially they say that mass attracts mass.
Some try to ridicule Cavendish's experimental technique but he was highly respected in his day for his experimental technique and had done many electrical experiments involving very small forces before that time.

So, I think it is fair to say that the results of these early experiments stand even if you wish to interpret them differently.

Some results might seem very hard to explain with a flat earth and UA.
How, for example would you explain:Of course, many flat earthers simply dismiss as "fabricated evidence" any results disagreeing with the flat earth - a highly dishonest practice in my opinion.
Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: lookatmooninUKthenAUS on July 10, 2018, 07:54:48 PM
Just to reiterate a basic point I have been screaming from the rooftops in umpteen posts.

Even if Celestial gravitation were assumed to sufficiently explain the steady reduction of g with altitude, it does not explain how there can be different values of g at equal altitudes.

Can I also say, it ought to be a rule of engaging in any discussion that the data and the theory that stems from it be laid out in a coherent fashion before it is even considered. To entertain flat Earther's on this thread with tit for tat arguments about whether gravity exists when Celestial gravity exists ONLY AS A STATEMENT is ludicrous. The measurement of g has a history stretching back centuries with countless methods being employed, nearly all in agreement to within very small error margins. There is zero explanation of the difference between celestial gravitation and normal gravitation and no data exists AT ALL.

As Rabinoz pointed out......

Quote
The variation of measured g with altitude? "Celestial Gravitation" has been suggested, but that raises the question as to why "celestial mass" should attract  "terrestrial mass" but "terrestrial mass" not attract "terrestrial mass".



Title: Re: Q. Universal Acceleration versus Newton's Law of gravitation:
Post by: BillO on July 30, 2018, 09:01:45 PM
celestial gravition is a force acting upon earth from the heavenly bodies, similar to what RE would call gravity.  its is a very small force, that increases as you increase elevation on earth (closer to celestial bodies).  it has a negative affect against the forces of UA.  this is why an objects weight would be less at the top of mount everest than at sea level.

Sorry to resurrect an older thread.

If what you say is true, then as you descend a mine shaft in the UA/CG model your weight should rise as you are still under the acceleration, but the force due to CG decreases.

However, Newton's law of universal gravitation and shell theory predict that you weight will decrease as you descend.  The math:

(http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Mechanics/imgmech/eh3.gif)

Experiment shows this prediction to be precisely correct.  Weight decreases as one descends into the earth.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/travelling-gnome-experiment-visits-world-s-deepest-lab-1.1294979 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/travelling-gnome-experiment-visits-world-s-deepest-lab-1.1294979)