# | Description | Date | Author |
1: | Initial version | 27/12/2014 | pizaaplanet |
I suppose we'll be keeping our current post count and whatnot. Is there any way to merge my account from the other forum with this one? If not, it's not a big deal, but it would be cool if that was possible.
What of post counts and e-peens and other such things. :PWe hope to merge everything we can. Assuming we overcome potential technical difficulties (which I'm confident we can do), we should be able to merge people's accounts from both forums, preserving their posts, post counts, etc.
Daniel will retain veto power over the ZC's decisions.Just out of curiosity, will ZC decisions need to be approved by Daniel, or will they stand unless he uses his veto power? Is there any time limit for Daniel to use his veto power before he's stuck with the ZC's decisions?
So the council has to be elected but the president doesn't? And nor does his Vice? How does that work?
- The Society
- President/VP - Daniel will be the President of the reunited society. Lord Wilmore will be the Vice President. These positions are at Daniel's discretion.
- The Zetetic Council - A democratically-elected body of 5 members will be electable yearly. They will be officially recognised as such within the Society and will therefore be expected to act as its legitimate representatives. Their exact remit and structure of the council will be established post-reunification (and pre-election) through a general agreement of all members of the Society and forum regulars (unless they deem that such a body is unnecessary). In principle, they will be a decision-making organ of the society wherever possible (e.g. not in charge of membership and merchandise - see below). Daniel will retain veto power over the ZC's decisions.
So the most flaky, unreliable and perpetually absent member of the society is the person we put in charge of distributing goods when people give REAL money for them? Come on. This is ridiculous. It has always been a great source of embarrassment how people can give money to the society and Daniel trousers it for 4 months and no one can get hold of him. Give the job to someone else.
- Merchandise - This remains within Daniel's remit and will likely operate as it does currently on theflatearthsociety.org, under the condition that it will be performed at no profit. After reunification, we may investigate alternative pathways (e.g. Zazzle/CafePress), should there be significant demand for such a development.
Just out of curiosity, will ZC decisions need to be approved by Daniel, or will they stand unless he uses his veto power? Is there any time limit for Daniel to use his veto power before he's stuck with the ZC's decisions?Their decision would stand unless vetoed. In principle, he could always overturn a decision.
So the council has to be elected but the president doesn't? And nor does his Vice? How does that work?Many people (in the reunification thread, but also Daniel himself) used the "Queen of England" analogy. Not all leaders are elected. This deal gives you a Parliament.
A president is the leader of a country or a division or part of a country, typically a republic, a democracy, or a dictatorship. The title "president" is sometimes used by extension for leaders of other groups.
I don't want Daniel in charge of a site that I like using.I believe the original proposal makes it clear that we would remain in charge of the forum.
I agree with the idea of reunification, but I do share some of Thork's sentiment regarding the old guard (though not as passionately). I suppose I'd want to know what fail-safe there is in the event that Daniel decides he doesn't like the current state of affairs, and wants to run everything again and de-admins us all? We could always spin off again, but no sister FES forum has ever done as well as this one, and that's coming from someone who made his own with Parsifal years ago. I agree with secret user that we are closer than I can ever recall. But, if everyone agrees this is where we should go then I'm on board. I have a feeling a lot of people feel as Thork does (again, not as strongly). If they didn't feel that way, I don't see how this place would've thrived for the past year plus. Anyway, just my two cents. Let's do it.
I suppose I'd want to know what fail-safe there is in the event that Daniel decides he doesn't like the current state of affairs, and wants to run everything again and de-admins us all?The forum would run on our servers, not his. Even with admin privileges, he couldn't do anything we couldn't undo.
That strongly depends on the nature of the friction. I feel that it's entirely too early to worry about that. He's giving us full control of the reunified forum. He's putting himself in a position where retaking that control would be a tall order.
Daniel and Wilmore proposed that they should only have an advisory function on the forum. They've literally deprived themselves of having a say in how the forum runs.
I agree with Thork. Things are going fine here, and I don't see a need to change that. We've never been as close knit of a community as this past year.Agreed.
I also do not see a need for the ZC. Just thought I'd throw that out there.I'm still not even sure what it does or why it's necessary. It just seems like a weird, political, Thork (did he even come up with it? it seems like something he would) brainchild with no real purpose.
From what I can tell, it's a holdover from the past that exists just because.
I also do not see a need for the ZC. Just thought I'd throw that out there.The ZC was ill thought out. We had 5 people with very little power to do anything on it.
I also do not see a need for the ZC. Just thought I'd throw that out there.The ZC was ill thought out. We had 5 people with very little power to do anything on it.
It should have had Parsifal who ran the website, PP who ran the forums and wiki, someone who did merch and membership, a press-officer and a social media person.
Between the 5 of them, they could have actually got stuff done. What could Tom Bishop or I do? We had no actual power to improve anything.
I think at its inception everyone was a little frightened of how PP and Parsifal might run the place. We had left a place where there was zero trust. Trust is actually something we have here now. and it took a long time to build and is likely the reason people feel the society has a good feeling about it over here. Going back and putting Daniel in charge of things will vaporise that. If we have another ZC or similar in the future, people should be elected into positions. Not just on a board of talking heads.
please stop derailing this one with your opinions
Everyone's input is welcome.
This thread is about the future, not the past.
If we have another ZC or similar in the future ...
The only problem I have is that I like this site's theme and logo infinitely more than the old site's.
The themes are identical, aside from the small improvements we've made since the split. Are you referring to the board read/unread icons, which are derived from each board's logo?
This place feels more supportive and comfortable than the other site ever did.
Are you going to do this on an individual-by-individual basis, or based on usernames (or something else)?I suppose we'll be keeping our current post count and whatnot. Is there any way to merge my account from the other forum with this one? If not, it's not a big deal, but it would be cool if that was possible.What of post counts and e-peens and other such things. [emoji14]We hope to merge everything we can. Assuming we overcome potential technical difficulties (which I'm confident we can do), we should be able to merge people's accounts from both forums, preserving their posts, post counts, etc.
Are you going to do this on an individual-by-individual basis, or based on usernames (or something else)?We will most likely ask people to tell us which accounts they'd like merged closer to the date. A brief look at what's possible suggests that we should be able to merge existing accounts as well as attribute posts from deleted accounts to users (e.g. Thork's old posts). But, of course, we won't do anything people wouldn't want, so an individual basis sounds safest.
I agree with Thork. Things are going fine here, and I don't see a need to change that. We've never been as close knit of a community as this past year.Nor have you ever talked so little of FET.
Are you going to do this on an individual-by-individual basis, or based on usernames (or something else)?We will most likely ask people to tell us which accounts they'd like merged closer to the date. A brief look at what's possible suggests that we should be able to merge existing accounts as well as attribute posts from deleted accounts to users (e.g. Thork's old posts). But, of course, we won't do anything people wouldn't want, so an individual basis sounds safest.
No one seems to have commented on Daniel's running of all the merch. A task he has failed at repeatedly and as mentioned is a source of major embarrassment. Can't we make 3rd partying it a part of the negotiation? He obviously finds it a chore anyway, which is why he does it so infrequently.Why are you so intnt on thowing out the owner of the website. Did you throw kids out of their own sandboxes when you were a child? So you could be the boss. If Daniel wanted to give away his rights and oownership, he would have done it. Everyone should work together to make the best FE website that we can. If you don't like Daniels, then start another new FE website and see if yours is better.
I hate it that someone who puts so little in, is leader forever. I don't think I'm going to win that argument. I just think its wrong that someone who hasn't bothered with the society since its first year still runs it 9 years later. How do you ever get rid of such a person? The only answer we found was to go elsewhere.
Are you going to do this on an individual-by-individual basis, or based on usernames (or something else)?We will most likely ask people to tell us which accounts they'd like merged closer to the date. A brief look at what's possible suggests that we should be able to merge existing accounts as well as attribute posts from deleted accounts to users (e.g. Thork's old posts). But, of course, we won't do anything people wouldn't want, so an individual basis sounds safest.
Can I not have an alt of the same username?No. You would have no way to choose which account you'd be logging in to, since your username is the only way to choose.
What about the spambot/DoS accounts? Will they get merged too?We'll purge what we can, i.e. hopefully everything. The recent spambots are all 0-post accounts with very clear characteristics, so we should be able to do it manually. There might be some old spam posts on the other forum that would probably be merged as parts of ancient threads, but we should be able to delete the accounts and stop new ones from appearing.
I also do not see a need for the ZC. Just thought I'd throw that out there.I'm still not even sure what it does or why it's necessary. It just seems like a weird, political, Thork (did he even come up with it? it seems like something he would) brainchild with no real purpose.
I also share Thork's concern about the merchandise, but with no one here haven taken up the merch role I suppose it's moot. Let the merger begin.
What of the concerns? Merchandising, web control, membership, etc?We're addressing them as they're brought up. You brought your concerns up months ago, and they've been addressed. Restating them over and over and crying won't change that.
Are you just looking to get a general yes and push through without addressing these, or will you go back with the community concerns and try to renegotiate?Those accusations have also gotten pretty old. I'm not going to respond to them anymore, unless literally anyone other than Thork thinks they're justified.
The two societies' forums will be merged by way of tfes.org inheriting theflatearthsociety.org's database. The resultant forum will remain under the current administration, moderation and rules of tfes.org.
The two societies' forums will be merged by way of tfes.org inheriting theflatearthsociety.org's database. The resultant forum will remain under the current administration, moderation and rules of tfes.org.
Does this mean that I will be effectively demodded?
I forgot you existed.The two societies' forums will be merged by way of tfes.org inheriting theflatearthsociety.org's database. The resultant forum will remain under the current administration, moderation and rules of tfes.org.
Does this mean that I will be effectively demodded?
That's a pretty harsh response after all the EXCELLENT moderating I did for you in regards to harassment issues in the past.Yeah, I remember that now. I removed the comment because I realized you must just be moding/active on the other forum which I never go to anymore. Carry on.
For what it's worth, mod or not, I'm still in favor of reunification. The under forums are so stale without all you Morlocks.
Yes
TakI can make a good guess as to what you're doing, but that word can mean either "yes" or "not" (among many other things) in various languages. Can we please keep it simple?
Better?TakI can make a good guess as to what you're doing, but that word can mean either "yes" or "not" (among many other things) in various languages. Can we please keep it simple?
Just to let people know, I'm leaving for New Zealand (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2115.0) in two days, so reunification won't actually be able to happen for another couple of weeks.That's not strictly accurate. The reunification of the societies can happen immediately after the conclusion of the vote. It's merely the merging of the fora that might be delayed.
The other side is Daniel and Wilmore. There isn't going to be any voting.Doesn't that tell you everything? We are going to end up being 'Daniel and Wilmore'. And neither are present very often. I know you all think we can have the kind of service over here and be a part of the community over there, but the only reason we never had good service over there is because everything is decided by 'Daniel and Wilmore'. And you all voted to go back to that.
The other side is Daniel and Wilmore. There isn't going to be any voting.Doesn't that tell you everything? We are going to end up being 'Daniel and Wilmore'. And neither are present very often. I know you all think we can have the kind of service over here and be a part of the community over there, but the only reason we never had good service over there is because everything is decided by 'Daniel and Wilmore'. And you all voted to go back to that.
There's a reason we came here. It was 'Daniel and Wilmore'. And the instant we go back, Daniel and Wilmore are going to see it as the 'Daniel and Wilmore' show again.
I dislike Daniel's attitude so much that I don't want to generate content for his site. That includes posts. I don't think I can follow you all. I never created a dual account over there. I never missed that site. If you want to post there, do it. Why am I being forced to? You are all free to go over there any time you like ... and you don't. :'(
I didn't vote but I kinda agree with Thork. I really hate Daniel and Wilmore's attitudes toward the forum. I stopped posting on that site completely after the split.
I know it's what everyone else wants, which is why I didn't vote, but unless it's vastly different than what it was I may not be posting too much either.
Why would voting be productive if everyone else wants thisBecause if more people share this sentiment, then it suddenly becomes something that not everyone wants.
I'm not panicking. And if they're coming here then that is vastly different and I don't mind reunification. See how easy that was?It was as easy as reading the OP before spreading FUD.
I don't understand why people suddenly started taking Thork's tantrums seriously, especially now after we've secured more power than we originally planned.Thork's tantrums are made a powerful enemy
Also, not voting on a proposal you're opposed to is the least productive thing possible. We can't hope to accurately represent what people want if they actively hold themselves back from telling us what they want.
...I'm happy to discuss things at length to make sure that everyone is informed and satisfied. Just, please, don't succumb to random panic.
Also, not voting on a proposal you're opposed to is the least productive thing possible. We can't hope to accurately represent what people want if they actively hold themselves back from telling us what they want.
I'm sure you mean accurately represent what people want who fell on your side of the schism....I'm happy to discuss things at length to make sure that everyone is informed and satisfied. Just, please, don't succumb to random panic.
Again, everyone with 50 or more posts on tfes.org prior to ~Dec 27th right?
Also, not voting on a proposal you're opposed to is the least productive thing possible. We can't hope to accurately represent what people want if they actively hold themselves back from telling us what they want.
I'm sure you mean accurately represent what people want who fell on your side of the schism....I'm happy to discuss things at length to make sure that everyone is informed and satisfied. Just, please, don't succumb to random panic.
Again, everyone with 50 or more posts on tfes.org prior to ~Dec 27th right?
Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.There is a thread about it on the other forum.
Are they talking about this merger at all on the other forum?
Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.
Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.There is a thread about it on the other forum.
However, as we are not full members there (not all of us anyway) we do not have a say in the political procedures. Daniel, Wilmore, and Davis are the ones who should be talking to you about it, making a poll, etc...
You can't expect us to do this work for you when it's not our forum.
Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.There is a thread about it on the other forum.
However, as we are not full members there (not all of us anyway) we do not have a say in the political procedures. Daniel, Wilmore, and Davis are the ones who should be talking to you about it, making a poll, etc...
You can't expect us to do this work for you when it's not our forum.
I'm sure that the natives in the Mid-Americas would have liked to have been consulted when France sold a large landmass to the United States government. Does it make it okay because the French government sucked? Does it make the voices of the purchased less meaningful? Did they feel okay about being acquired because their comments fell upon the deaf ears of their government?
Or, do you think that it would have been nice if there were even allowed to vote? It's not like we're talking about strangers, these are people engaged in a community that is about to be merged and because our "government" is ineffective and aloof we get no say. And when one tries to make their voice heard, their vote is stricken away. Gotham isn't a stranger either, we all know him (or at least of him).
I have no experience with how these forums are ran, but it seems to me that we will be replacing one tyrant for another.
I will be perfectly happy to have Gotham's vote unstricken. I feel it will show that the administration of this forum is at least amiable to the wants of the members of the "old" forum.
Because we all know that a poll on my end will be as effective as... well as effective as the incumbent administration.
Of course, very shortly half of them will be our admins ... and still just as unconcerned about our opinions, and it really will be our problem.Because we all know that a poll on my end will be as effective as... well as effective as the incumbent administration.
I don't understand. Make a poll, or contact your admins to make a poll. This isn't really our problem. If your admins refuse to acknowledge the userbase on their own forum then there's not much we can do to help you.
Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.There is a thread about it on the other forum.
However, as we are not full members there (not all of us anyway) we do not have a say in the political procedures. Daniel, Wilmore, and Davis are the ones who should be talking to you about it, making a poll, etc...
You can't expect us to do this work for you when it's not our forum.
I'm sure that the natives in the Mid-Americas would have liked to have been consulted when France sold a large landmass to the United States government. Does it make it okay because the French government sucked? Does it make the voices of the purchased less meaningful? Did they feel okay about being acquired because their comments fell upon the deaf ears of their government?
Or, do you think that it would have been nice if there were even allowed to vote? It's not like we're talking about strangers, these are people engaged in a community that is about to be merged and because our "government" is ineffective and aloof we get no say. And when one tries to make their voice heard, their vote is stricken away. Gotham isn't a stranger either, we all know him (or at least of him).
I have no experience with how these forums are ran, but it seems to me that we will be replacing one tyrant for another.
I will be perfectly happy to have Gotham's vote unstricken. I feel it will show that the administration of this forum is at least amiable to the wants of the members of the "old" forum.
Why?
This vote is for this forum's members. Why not just make a poll on your end? Based on what I know about the admins here, if there was a sizable "no" on that end, they'd probably bring that issue up before the merger.
Or would you prefer I do it for you?
Of course, very shortly half of them will be our admins ... and still just as unconcerned about our opinions, and it really will be our problem.Because we all know that a poll on my end will be as effective as... well as effective as the incumbent administration.
I don't understand. Make a poll, or contact your admins to make a poll. This isn't really our problem. If your admins refuse to acknowledge the userbase on their own forum then there's not much we can do to help you.
I think all this boils down to Daniel noticing our presence on Wikipedia and then facebook and not liking the idea that this half was on its way to being more successful. He wants to either remain in charge, or slow our progress which is now very apparent by everything being left until "after reunification". A process he will be in no hurry to resolve. I can't fathom pizaaplanet's motives. Why he'd rather be confined to Daniel's terms than doing whatever he sees as best here, I can't work out. He obviously has some motive that he won't share and its likely dark and evil because that is the type of mischievous little git that he is. >:(
I know pizaaplanet will rush in here to tell everyone my opinion is that of a crazed loon and not to listen and that I've had my say, but it seems despite Pongo confirming my suspicions about the attitudes and motives of our new overlords, no one is listening. Hearing yes, listening, no. I cannot have my way on this as I am in the minority, but I'd very much like to store up a huge "I told you so" and this is part of it.
Of course, very shortly half of them will be our admins ... and still just as unconcerned about our opinions, and it really will be our problem.Because we all know that a poll on my end will be as effective as... well as effective as the incumbent administration.
I don't understand. Make a poll, or contact your admins to make a poll. This isn't really our problem. If your admins refuse to acknowledge the userbase on their own forum then there's not much we can do to help you.
I think all this boils down to Daniel noticing our presence on Wikipedia and then facebook and not liking the idea that this half was on its way to being more successful. He wants to either remain in charge, or slow our progress which is now very apparent by everything being left until "after reunification". A process he will be in no hurry to resolve. I can't fathom pizaaplanet's motives. Why he'd rather be confined to Daniel's terms than doing whatever he sees as best here, I can't work out. He obviously has some motive that he won't share and its likely dark and evil because that is the type of mischievous little git that he is. >:(
I know pizaaplanet will rush in here to tell everyone my opinion is that of a crazed loon and not to listen and that I've had my say, but it seems despite Pongo confirming my suspicions about the attitudes and motives of our new overlords, no one is listening. Hearing yes, listening, no. I cannot have my way on this as I am in the minority, but I'd very much like to store up a huge "I told you so" and this is part of it.
Do you begin to at least see the point of view I'm raising? Do you begin to see why, "it's not our problem" sounds indecorous in light of the position we are in?
No, I don't. It's not our problem because we can't control your admins or mods. Get your own things together and create a poll. If that poll shows that the userbase at .org does not want to unify, then I'm sure the matter will be brought to the attention of PP and Parsifal and appropriate measures will be taken. All you're doing now is whining. Do something productive.A history lesson for Vauxy. The old site has been run badly for many many years. Those with the get up and go to try something else came here. Those with no desire to do anything about the shit state of affairs on the other site, stayed. Pongo stayed. How then do you think he is going to muster the energy with all the other can't be bothered to change anything members of his site to actually change something? All the people who would do anything about the mistreatment of users on the other site are already here.
You are aware that theflatearthsociety.org and tfes.org are different sites right?
Since you seem to be just as inactive as Daniel in getting your issues resolved. I'll make the damn poll for you. Stay tuned.
I know pizaaplanet will rush in here to tell everyone my opinion is that of a crazed loon and not to listen and that I've had my say, but it seems despite Pongo confirming my suspicions about the attitudes and motives of our new overlords, no one is listening. Hearing yes, listening, no. I cannot have my way on this as I am in the minority, but I'd very much like to store up a huge "I told you so" and this is part of it.
A history lesson for Vauxy. The old site has been run badly for many many years. Those with the get up and go to try something else came here. Those with no desire to do anything about the shit state of affairs on the other site, stayed. Pongo stayed. How then do you think he is going to muster the energy with all the other can't be bothered to change anything members of his site to actually change something? All the people who would do anything about the mistreatment of users on the other site are already here.
A history lesson for Vauxy. The old site has been run badly for many many years. Those with the get up and go to try something else came here. Those with no desire to do anything about the shit state of affairs on the other site, stayed. Pongo stayed. How then do you think he is going to muster the energy with all the other can't be bothered to change anything members of his site to actually change something? All the people who would do anything about the mistreatment of users on the other site are already here.
I've been a member since 2007. I am aware of the concerns.
I have created the poll.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62575.0#.VLQtACvF9fQ
A history lesson for Vauxy. The old site has been run badly for many many years. Those with the get up and go to try something else came here. Those with no desire to do anything about the shit state of affairs on the other site, stayed. Pongo stayed. How then do you think he is going to muster the energy with all the other can't be bothered to change anything members of his site to actually change something? All the people who would do anything about the mistreatment of users on the other site are already here.
I've been a member since 2007. I am aware of the concerns.
I have created the poll.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62575.0#.VLQtACvF9fQ
What are you trying to prove with that poll? All it shows me is your inability to listen to my concerns and responses as you bull ahead with your initial proposal that's already been addressed as flawed.
What are you trying to prove with that poll? All it shows me is your inability to listen to my concerns and responses as you bull ahead with your initial proposal that's already been addressed as flawed.Well what are your concerns then? You're angry that no one is listening and then get angry when someone tries to make a poll about it on that site - what is it that you want to be heard?
What are you trying to prove with that poll? All it shows me is your inability to listen to my concerns and responses as you bull ahead with your initial proposal that's already been addressed as flawed.Well what are your concerns then? You're angry that no one is listening and then get angry when someone tries to make a poll about it on that site - what is it that you want to be heard?
What are you trying to prove with that poll? All it shows me is your inability to listen to my concerns and responses as you bull ahead with your initial proposal that's already been addressed as flawed.Well what are your concerns then? You're angry that no one is listening and then get angry when someone tries to make a poll about it on that site - what is it that you want to be heard?
The poll is clearly a farce. It's patronizing and as relevant as a poll on your favorite ice cream flavor if the results aren't used for anything. Vauxhall can't assure anyone that the poll is anything other than hot air. Has any administrator of either site said they would factor in the results of this poll? It's like telling me you'll listen to me after you lock me in a soundproof room and frankly, your obtusity in matter is insulting.
If I just wanted to hear myself talk I would post in CN.
I understand your point. Now here's mine.Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.There is a thread about it on the other forum.
However, as we are not full members there (not all of us anyway) we do not have a say in the political procedures. Daniel, Wilmore, and Davis are the ones who should be talking to you about it, making a poll, etc...
You can't expect us to do this work for you when it's not our forum.
I'm sure that the natives in the Mid-Americas would have liked to have been consulted when France sold a large landmass to the United States government. Does it make it okay because the French government sucked? Does it make the voices of the purchased less meaningful? Did they feel okay about being acquired because their comments fell upon the deaf ears of their government?
Or, do you think that it would have been nice if there were even allowed to vote? It's not like we're talking about strangers, these are people engaged in a community that is about to be merged and because our "government" is ineffective and aloof we get no say. And when one tries to make their voice heard, their vote is stricken away. Gotham isn't a stranger either, we all know him (or at least of him).
I have no experience with how these forums are ran, but it seems to me that we will be replacing one tyrant for another.
I will be perfectly happy to have Gotham's vote unstricken. I feel it will show that the administration of this forum is at least amiable to the wants of the members of the "old" forum.
Why?
This vote is for this forum's members. Why not just make a poll on your end? Based on what I know about the admins here, if there was a sizable "no" on that end, they'd probably bring that issue up before the merger.
Or would you prefer I do it for you?
It's your problem because of this, "It's not our problem" attitude. A significant portion of the people being effected by the merger have no voice in it whatsoever (Their side doesn't listen and their vote is taken away by the side that expounds its benevolence to the users -- Am I seriously the only one that sees the irony in that?) and when that issue is addressed we get a response that amounts to "lol, not our problem."
Try imagining it in reverse; Saddam posts a link on these forums that says the "old" site is going to merge with this site and all the rules from theirs will override. The admins on the site you actively post on are non-existent (remember, you're pretending) and when you wander over to the other to see if your voice matters, you are told that only posters that have >50 posts on this site can vote (mind you that the deadline to obtain 50 posts was set in the past). You say that this is going to effect you and you should at the very least have a say and all you get are replies saying, "Sorry, not our problem. Try talking to your admins that we all know don't respond to anyone."
Do you begin to at least see the point of view I'm raising? Do you begin to see why, "it's not our problem" sounds indecorous in light of the position we are in?
The poll is limited to people who had made at least fifty posts prior to Dec 27th simply to ensure that everyone voting is at least reasonably invested in the community here. It sucks that gotham's vote can't be counted, as we all know that he's sincere despite his low post count, but I can't think of a better way to make sure that the voting is representative of our community, and it would be something of a slippery slope to start making exceptions on an individual basis.
I don't think you understand, Pongo. Your voice isn't being heard because your administration decided it doesn't need to be heard. It's not our problem how Daniel decides how things are run on his site, and it's not our job to invite people from Daniel's site to raise their concerns in regards to how our site is run. I'm sorry, but it just seems to me like you have a problem with Daniel, not us. He's the one who's decided to not give his community the courtesy of making this kind of decision for themselves.
What are you trying to prove with that poll? All it shows me is your inability to listen to my concerns and responses as you bull ahead with your initial proposal that's already been addressed as flawed.Well what are your concerns then? You're angry that no one is listening and then get angry when someone tries to make a poll about it on that site - what is it that you want to be heard?
The poll is clearly a farce. It's patronizing and as relevant as a poll on your favorite ice cream flavor if the results aren't used for anything. Vauxhall can't assure anyone that the poll is anything other than hot air. Has any administrator of either site said they would factor in the results of this poll? It's like telling me you'll listen to me after you lock me in a soundproof room and frankly, your obtusity in matter is insulting.
If I just wanted to hear myself talk I would post in CN.
The only people who could make a meaningful poll, then, are Daniel and Wilmore, right? So why are you complaining to us?
What are your concerns about the merger?
I understand your point. Now here's mine.Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.There is a thread about it on the other forum.
However, as we are not full members there (not all of us anyway) we do not have a say in the political procedures. Daniel, Wilmore, and Davis are the ones who should be talking to you about it, making a poll, etc...
You can't expect us to do this work for you when it's not our forum.
I'm sure that the natives in the Mid-Americas would have liked to have been consulted when France sold a large landmass to the United States government. Does it make it okay because the French government sucked? Does it make the voices of the purchased less meaningful? Did they feel okay about being acquired because their comments fell upon the deaf ears of their government?
Or, do you think that it would have been nice if there were even allowed to vote? It's not like we're talking about strangers, these are people engaged in a community that is about to be merged and because our "government" is ineffective and aloof we get no say. And when one tries to make their voice heard, their vote is stricken away. Gotham isn't a stranger either, we all know him (or at least of him).
I have no experience with how these forums are ran, but it seems to me that we will be replacing one tyrant for another.
I will be perfectly happy to have Gotham's vote unstricken. I feel it will show that the administration of this forum is at least amiable to the wants of the members of the "old" forum.
Why?
This vote is for this forum's members. Why not just make a poll on your end? Based on what I know about the admins here, if there was a sizable "no" on that end, they'd probably bring that issue up before the merger.
Or would you prefer I do it for you?
It's your problem because of this, "It's not our problem" attitude. A significant portion of the people being effected by the merger have no voice in it whatsoever (Their side doesn't listen and their vote is taken away by the side that expounds its benevolence to the users -- Am I seriously the only one that sees the irony in that?) and when that issue is addressed we get a response that amounts to "lol, not our problem."
Try imagining it in reverse; Saddam posts a link on these forums that says the "old" site is going to merge with this site and all the rules from theirs will override. The admins on the site you actively post on are non-existent (remember, you're pretending) and when you wander over to the other to see if your voice matters, you are told that only posters that have >50 posts on this site can vote (mind you that the deadline to obtain 50 posts was set in the past). You say that this is going to effect you and you should at the very least have a say and all you get are replies saying, "Sorry, not our problem. Try talking to your admins that we all know don't respond to anyone."
Do you begin to at least see the point of view I'm raising? Do you begin to see why, "it's not our problem" sounds indecorous in light of the position we are in?
You chose to stay. You chose admins who don't give a damn. You chose a poorly run forum. This isn't like two countries: you could move with the ease of a few clicks. Hell, you could have posted in BOTH forums and we wouldn't care. The way I see it, you basically said "Yes, I will let Daniel decide the forum." It was your choice and now that Daniel is doing it, you're being angry. I'm sorry but Daniel is your representative in the forum merger just like PP and Parsifal is ours.
Though if you think a poll would be useless, why do you want to vote here? It would be equally useless then, wouldn't it?
Ok so:I understand your point. Now here's mine.Oh, so it's not really about reuniting a community as much as getting the .org with the higher Google results? That's fine if that's what it is, but it really shouldn't be called a reunification proposal.There is a thread about it on the other forum.
However, as we are not full members there (not all of us anyway) we do not have a say in the political procedures. Daniel, Wilmore, and Davis are the ones who should be talking to you about it, making a poll, etc...
You can't expect us to do this work for you when it's not our forum.
I'm sure that the natives in the Mid-Americas would have liked to have been consulted when France sold a large landmass to the United States government. Does it make it okay because the French government sucked? Does it make the voices of the purchased less meaningful? Did they feel okay about being acquired because their comments fell upon the deaf ears of their government?
Or, do you think that it would have been nice if there were even allowed to vote? It's not like we're talking about strangers, these are people engaged in a community that is about to be merged and because our "government" is ineffective and aloof we get no say. And when one tries to make their voice heard, their vote is stricken away. Gotham isn't a stranger either, we all know him (or at least of him).
I have no experience with how these forums are ran, but it seems to me that we will be replacing one tyrant for another.
I will be perfectly happy to have Gotham's vote unstricken. I feel it will show that the administration of this forum is at least amiable to the wants of the members of the "old" forum.
Why?
This vote is for this forum's members. Why not just make a poll on your end? Based on what I know about the admins here, if there was a sizable "no" on that end, they'd probably bring that issue up before the merger.
Or would you prefer I do it for you?
It's your problem because of this, "It's not our problem" attitude. A significant portion of the people being effected by the merger have no voice in it whatsoever (Their side doesn't listen and their vote is taken away by the side that expounds its benevolence to the users -- Am I seriously the only one that sees the irony in that?) and when that issue is addressed we get a response that amounts to "lol, not our problem."
Try imagining it in reverse; Saddam posts a link on these forums that says the "old" site is going to merge with this site and all the rules from theirs will override. The admins on the site you actively post on are non-existent (remember, you're pretending) and when you wander over to the other to see if your voice matters, you are told that only posters that have >50 posts on this site can vote (mind you that the deadline to obtain 50 posts was set in the past). You say that this is going to effect you and you should at the very least have a say and all you get are replies saying, "Sorry, not our problem. Try talking to your admins that we all know don't respond to anyone."
Do you begin to at least see the point of view I'm raising? Do you begin to see why, "it's not our problem" sounds indecorous in light of the position we are in?
You chose to stay. You chose admins who don't give a damn. You chose a poorly run forum. This isn't like two countries: you could move with the ease of a few clicks. Hell, you could have posted in BOTH forums and we wouldn't care. The way I see it, you basically said "Yes, I will let Daniel decide the forum." It was your choice and now that Daniel is doing it, you're being angry. I'm sorry but Daniel is your representative in the forum merger just like PP and Parsifal is ours.
Though if you think a poll would be useless, why do you want to vote here? It would be equally useless then, wouldn't it?
I understand most of your point (more on that later) and have been trying to get people to realize that this merger feels like a slap in the face. Like no one cares what we think or how we feel. And it sets a poor prescience for the pending merger. I'm sorry I didn't make 50 arbitrary posts here before Dec 27th. Perhaps if I had people would see me as one of them, not one of the others.
I don't understand your question about the poll.
The only people who could make a meaningful poll, then, are Daniel and Wilmore, right? So why are you complaining to us?
I've already addressed the "it's not our problem" argument.
No, he wants our administration to let the .org people vote here instead of over there because doing so would be useless.The only people who could make a meaningful poll, then, are Daniel and Wilmore, right? So why are you complaining to us?
I've already addressed the "it's not our problem" argument.
I never said that it isn't our problem. The problem, as I understand it, is that the input regarding the merger from theflatearthsociety.org users is not being taken into account. I think that's a problem for all of us. What can anybody here do, though? None of us are administrators there. You're complaining to the wrong people.
No, he wants our administration to let the .org people vote here instead of over there because doing so would be useless.The only people who could make a meaningful poll, then, are Daniel and Wilmore, right? So why are you complaining to us?
I've already addressed the "it's not our problem" argument.
I never said that it isn't our problem. The problem, as I understand it, is that the input regarding the merger from theflatearthsociety.org users is not being taken into account. I think that's a problem for all of us. What can anybody here do, though? None of us are administrators there. You're complaining to the wrong people.
It's no matter if you have been a member of society as a greater[...]
No, he wants our administration to let the .org people vote here instead of over there because doing so would be useless.The only people who could make a meaningful poll, then, are Daniel and Wilmore, right? So why are you complaining to us?
I've already addressed the "it's not our problem" argument.
I never said that it isn't our problem. The problem, as I understand it, is that the input regarding the merger from theflatearthsociety.org users is not being taken into account. I think that's a problem for all of us. What can anybody here do, though? None of us are administrators there. You're complaining to the wrong people.
Internet forums are serious business.You are not wrong.
The merger will result in a unified community with better administration. You obviously dislike the way Daniel is handling things, and this unification will hopefully resolve that. I don't understand your concerns.
I would, honestly, still like to know what the difference between voting here and voting there is.The merger will result in a unified community with better administration. You obviously dislike the way Daniel is handling things, and this unification will hopefully resolve that. I don't understand your concerns.
And I fear you may never. However, I find myself repeating arguments so I'll abstain from further comments on the topic. I feel that I stated my opinion as well as I could and we may be forced to accept our misunderstandings are at an impass.
Its the difference between sex and masturbation.I would, honestly, still like to know what the difference between voting here and voting there is.The merger will result in a unified community with better administration. You obviously dislike the way Daniel is handling things, and this unification will hopefully resolve that. I don't understand your concerns.
And I fear you may never. However, I find myself repeating arguments so I'll abstain from further comments on the topic. I feel that I stated my opinion as well as I could and we may be forced to accept our misunderstandings are at an impass.
Its the difference between sex and masturbation.I would, honestly, still like to know what the difference between voting here and voting there is.The merger will result in a unified community with better administration. You obviously dislike the way Daniel is handling things, and this unification will hopefully resolve that. I don't understand your concerns.
And I fear you may never. However, I find myself repeating arguments so I'll abstain from further comments on the topic. I feel that I stated my opinion as well as I could and we may be forced to accept our misunderstandings are at an impass.
...I'm happy to discuss things at length to make sure that everyone is informed and satisfied. Just, please, don't succumb to random panic.
Again, everyone with 50 or more posts on tfes.org prior to ~Dec 27th right?
I wish we would continue to use our logo. It's so much easier to look at.
Oh boy, this is what happens when I sleep during the day. This post will specifically focus on Pongo's remarks. After I've posted this, I'll re-read the 2 or so pages of posts that came around today and respond to anything that remains, so please stand by.
Pongo, the reason we're not asking theflatearthsociety.org members for their votes is because it's outside of our remit. We have no control there, and no right to make formal decisions on your side's behalf... yet. Mind you, I've been asking for their opinions for quite a while - I've been active in the thread started by PP2 and did my best to satisfy people's concerns. I also invited people from theflatearthsociety.org to join the discussion as early as on the 3rd of August.
As many others pointed out, right now we're separate sites with separate administrations. I have previously suggested that Daniel should consult you guys on this, but right now it's simply his choice, not ours. I believe that I've done everything I can to ensure that the members of theflatearthsociety.org's members are listened to. The only opportunity you didn't get is to take part in the formal vote.
I agree that the "not our problem" attitude is nonsense. This is our problem, since a large chunk of the userbase we'll have to work for will soon come from the merger. I cannot, however, agree with your narrative of "evil Parsifal and pizaa are taking arr' jerbs and ain't even asking us about it!" - that's simply not what's happening.
Personally, I take particular offence with statements like this:...I'm happy to discuss things at length to make sure that everyone is informed and satisfied. Just, please, don't succumb to random panic.
Again, everyone with 50 or more posts on tfes.org prior to ~Dec 27th right?
But hey, let's humour you. No, literally everyone is welcome to discuss and ask questions about the proposal. What you don't get to do is vote on it, for at least two reasons now. Is the distinction clear now, or should I alternate between bold and regular fonts for a little longer?
Dammit Pongo, you've seen how this stuff works. I can't help but feel that you're only here to stir pointless drama. If you have actual concerns about the proposal, drop them here or PM me.
Now, why did I arbitrarily (and I agree, it's largely arbitrary) choose to restrict the vote to people with 50+ posts? Really, it was mostly to stop people from gaming the system. I worried that there might be some people who would start making alts, or that some randoms with no interest in the tfes.org community would come along and start skewing the vote. Bear in mind that the conditions of the vote were open for amendments (see OP, towards the bottom of the post) and no one mentioned even a trace of disagreement at the time.
Long story short, the things you're complaining about don't even exist, at least to my understanding. We've done everything we humanly could to keep the members of the other side informed and to consult them. Given that you have more power on theflatearthsociety.org than I do, you may want to take matters in your own hands if you feel your side of the schism isn't playing nicely. Or, if you have any suggestions for what I can personally do to make things nicer over there, hey, I'm happy to try; but I'm not going to circumvent Daniel at a time where our mutual understanding is so crucial.
Of course, very shortly half of them will be our admins ... and still just as unconcerned about our opinions, and it really will be our problem.Admins in name only. They don't get to make decisions. We do. Whether they're concerned or not affects nothing.
I think all this boils down to Daniel noticing our presence on Wikipedia and then facebook and not liking the idea that this half was on its way to being more successful. He wants to either remain in charge, or slow our progress which is now very apparent by everything being left until "after reunification". A process he will be in no hurry to resolve.He won't need to be in any hurry at all, since we're giving the community a decision-making body of his own. Hopefully, we'll be able to create one that's more effective than the current ZC (which, arguably, was less active than Daniel as far as political goals are concerned).
I can't fathom pizaaplanet's motives. Why he'd rather be confined to Daniel's terms than doing whatever he sees as best here, I can't work out. He obviously has some motive that he won't share and its likely dark and evil because that is the type of mischievous little git that he is. >:(I'm literally being paid all the money to do this.
I know pizaaplanet will rush in here to tell everyone my opinion is that of a crazed loon and not to listen and that I've had my say, but it seems despite Pongo confirming my suspicions about the attitudes and motives of our new overlords, no one is listening. Hearing yes, listening, no. I cannot have my way on this as I am in the minority, but I'd very much like to store up a huge "I told you so" and this is part of it.It's difficult to do anything other than hear and not listen to you, because what you're claiming directly contradicts what's being proposed. You starting off with the assumption that the earth is round, and everything that follows from that assumption is just wrong. Several times now you've suggested that Daniel would be an admin and that this would somehow affect us. And I've responded several times, pointing out that this simply isn't the case. There's nothing more I can do.
(Everyone, please let me know if I've missed any major posts that need addressing from today. I feel that this covers the bulk of it, but I may have missed something)
Looks like we don't have to worry about that. The poll is overwhelmingly positive, so far
If the results of this poll are overwhelming negative... will this be taken into consideration?I can't answer that with authority, since if it happened we'd have to talk it through with Daniel, but personally I wouldn't want to force our administration upon the other site's members if they really don't want it.
Looks like we don't have to worry about that. The poll is overwhelmingly positive, so far
I'm just hoping that all those votes aren't from members here. I'd like to see what the .org only members think specifically, but didn't want to make the poll too restrictive.
I wish we would continue to use our logo. It's so much easier to look at.I'd like to second this. Our theme and logo is way more pleasant.
I wish we would continue to use our logo. It's so much easier to look at.I'd like to second this. Our theme and logo is way more pleasant.
It's the same theme.I know the background is the same. Maybe it's just the logo then that makes the layout look slightly different. It kinda looks slightly bigger in general, but that might just be the logo deceiving me.
I know the background is the same. Maybe it's just the logo then that makes the layout look slightly different. It kinda looks slightly bigger in general, but that might just be the logo deceiving me.
With that in mind, by a very clear majority vote, I'm pleased to announce that tfes.org accepts the proposal. Assuming theflatearthsociety.org accepts it as well (which I believe they already did, but I'll ask for a formal confirmation), we'll begin working on the forum merger as soon as possible. This will be slowed down by several factors:
- Parsifal's currently on his NZ trip.
- We need access to the server on which theflatearthsociety.org is hosted. Since Daniel shares this host with other people, he said he'd like to first move the site away from the shared server so that he can give us full access without compromising the other people's stuff.
- When those two things are out of the way, we should be able to start developing a solution to effectively merge the two fora. This shouldn't take long, but it will take some time and effort.
But, for the time being, as soon as I get confirmation from Daniel that their side accepts these terms, the societies are formally reunified!
So the council has to be elected but the president doesn't? And nor does his Vice? How does that work?
- The Society
- President/VP - Daniel will be the President of the reunited society. Lord Wilmore will be the Vice President. These positions are at Daniel's discretion.
- The Zetetic Council - A democratically-elected body of 5 members will be electable yearly. They will be officially recognised as such within the Society and will therefore be expected to act as its legitimate representatives. Their exact remit and structure of the council will be established post-reunification (and pre-election) through a general agreement of all members of the Society and forum regulars (unless they deem that such a body is unnecessary). In principle, they will be a decision-making organ of the society wherever possible (e.g. not in charge of membership and merchandise - see below). Daniel will retain veto power over the ZC's decisions.
If we have a despot in charge, call him that. Presidents are elected. Also, we've had Daniel for 10 years and he does very little. Even the United States gets rid of a president after 8 years. Lets have a change. Why are we stuck with Daniel? He does nothing, contributes nothing, doesn't know anything about flat earth history or the theories ... why are we stuck with him forever and ever? Fuck him. We don't need him.So the most flaky, unreliable and perpetually absent member of the society is the person we put in charge of distributing goods when people give REAL money for them? Come on. This is ridiculous. It has always been a great source of embarrassment how people can give money to the society and Daniel trousers it for 4 months and no one can get hold of him. Give the job to someone else.
- Merchandise - This remains within Daniel's remit and will likely operate as it does currently on theflatearthsociety.org, under the condition that it will be performed at no profit. After reunification, we may investigate alternative pathways (e.g. Zazzle/CafePress), should there be significant demand for such a development.
There. Not so bad. Only disliked two of the suggestions so we aren't a million miles away.
The thing is, Daniel hasn't moved a jot. He still wants to be the President, still wants control over the main site and all financial control. He wants it all, and wants everyone else to just run it all for him whilst he does very little other than get in the way. Why are we so desperate to put up with all his crap again? If you like his way of doing things, post over there. If you don't, stay here. Why are our choices being limited? I don't want Daniel in charge of a site that I like using. He will not change, he will not compromise, he is just a domain squatter. We don't need him or Wilmore. Neither contribute anything any more. Its time they handed over the reigns. They won't. Leave them to rot over there.
The problem with Daniel is that he isn't accountable to anyone, and he doesn't give a shit about anyone else's opinions. Lets not put him in that position of power again. He abuses it.[/list][/list]
Be that as it may, everything Thork said about Daniel will apply to this forum if it unites with himIt won't, because Daniel will have no control of the forum whatsoever. He'll be no more of a threat than Thork is right now.
This website evidently has sincere people and is apparently better moderated and thus has had far more potential than is possible for DanielWe are maintaining our current moderation team after the reunification. We are maintaining everything as it is currently. All the forum is getting is a 10-year backlog of posts and an expanded memberbase.
That reunion will tend only to make me shy away from serious commitment to this forum.So long as you make sure to base your decision on actual information and not Thork's impotent attempts at sabotaging this forum, fair enough.
We have agreed for Daniel to have ownership of the home page and library, but we've also made sure that regular members will have an easy way of direct contribution. From my point of view, the only risk is that Daniel might pull the plug on something, but honestly I doubt that'd ever happen.
Will you and Parsifal lose ultimate ownership of this forum in case of a split?No. The forum will remain on a server owned and controlled by Parsifal (either where it currently is or a new VPS dedicated to hosting FES). While we want to build this merger on the atmosphere of mutual trust, I feel that we've taken sufficient precautions in case things go wrong.
Does anything useful actually get discussed at the other site? The last time I popped in, it had been more than a week since the last post.
If anything does ever go wrong, I might perhaps be the first volunteer to meet him and discuss our concerns:Will you and Parsifal lose ultimate ownership of this forum in case of a split?No. The forum will remain on a server owned and controlled by Parsifal (either where it currently is or a new VPS dedicated to hosting FES). While we want to build this merger on the atmosphere of mutual trust, I feel that we've taken sufficient precautions in case things go wrong.
This is never going to happen, is it?
If my sources are correct (PizaaPlanet), we are waiting on Daniel to move the forums to a seperate server.
Any news on this front?I wish. We've last heard from Daniel on 26/02/2015 and Wilmore on 05/03/2015. I promise I'll post any updates here should there be anything to update people on, but right now... well, there is nothing.
Any news on this front?I wish. We've last heard from Daniel on 26/02/2015 and Wilmore on 05/03/2015. I promise I'll post any updates here should there be anything to update people on, but right now... well, there is nothing.
Well, it's looking like a rival flat earth group is forming around Eric Dubay who is decidedly more energetic and definitely critical of Daniel Shenton. I noticed that Dubay has another kind of demon, a different weakness: hard core crude anti-semitism which is unfortunate, but he's obviously a better researcher than Daniel.
I'm starting to think this might not happenThat is indeed a likely possibility. We can't do anything in Daniel's absence, and he doesn't appear to be responding to communication, even from Wilmore.
Today I did a Google Search for Flat Earth Society and the homepage of this site now ranks 3rd and the forum of the other site ranks 5th.Yeah, although that mostly seems to have to do with the other site's homepage being down for an extended period of time. I'm not sure if this will continue when/if they bring it back up.
I'm getting a "404" whenn I search on "the flat earth society". Has it been shut down permanently ?
And no one knows when it'll be fixed...I'm getting a "404" whenn I search on "the flat earth society". Has it been shut down permanently ?
No, it's experiencing technical difficulties.
And no one know when it'll be fixed...I'm getting a "404" whenn I search on "the flat earth society". Has it been shut down permanently ?
No, it's experiencing technical difficulties.
I was typing in a car. But fixed now, thanks.And no one know when it'll be fixed...I'm getting a "404" whenn I search on "the flat earth society". Has it been shut down permanently ?
No, it's experiencing technical difficulties.
Know.
t f e s are all the trolls that left our site. They tried to take over the site a while ago because they were not happy that Daniel was president and wanted to usurp him; they started their own by tarnishing our brand and trademark.
They have no interest in spreading the truth and simply confine themselves to their little forum where they make up fake groups like "The Zetetic Council" in an attempt to appear legitimate. In reality, this just reveals them for the trolls they are. They are 95% of the UA believers and for the large part they don't believe the earth is flat but are similar to groups like Leo Ferrari and Kay Burns Flat Earth Society of Canada which uses our beliefs as to mock us and the modern gullibility of man.
We were first and we are the legitimate society. This is evidenced by our widespread influence in articles, interviews, academic works, and books. We have banned mention of their site on ours because they performed a coordinated attack on us as well as spammed our forums with links to their site to increase their natural link back rate and to raise our bounce rate. Additionally, they purposely caused many of the problems our site was having at the time in an effort to move people from here to there while simultaneously legitimizing their supposed platform. Oddly enough, once they left, people stopped complaining about thousands of issues they had caused and we were able to maintain legitimate discussion again. Additionally, they stole the content of our wiki, largely derivative work of Daniel himself. As such we will soon be discontinuing our wiki which they left as a mess of incoherent garbage that often puts down the flat earth rather than discusses it. To add insult to injury, they again tried to bolster their rank through black hat methods by spamming wikipedia with links to their site. Apparently they didn't realize their society has no legitimacy and still don't.
We are on good terms, but make no mistake - they are the enemy of the Flat Earth Movement. If anybody is a shill, a term I really dislike using, its them. They have done more to hurt the flat earth society than any other person in our two hundred year history. The only reason we don't pursue legal action against them is because if they are over there, we don't have to worry about them causing trouble here.
They are the most despicable type of person and in my eyes are terrorists to the Flat Earth.
You want Daniel's shit logo?When did I say I did?
You want Daniel in charge of T-shirts that never arrive?When did I say I did?
You want Wilmore doing the social media in the most anti-social way possible ... by ignoring it.When did I say I did?
You want John Davis in charge of site updates?When did I say I did?