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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #620 on: July 25, 2014, 04:04:58 AM »
Morrowind is a 2D turn-based RPG masquerading as a 3D real-time action-adventure game.

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Offline Snupes

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #621 on: July 25, 2014, 04:24:21 AM »
You're right. The game doesn't dangle shiny objects in front of your face to get your attention. It simply presents the world to you, and tells you that you're free to do as you wish. If that doesn't interest you, you probably won't like the game.

I feel like that's a vast embellishment of it. I love games where I can go off and do whatever I want and I generally do so. I'm not just talking about the main story, I'm talking about everything. Morrowind is a pretty interesting world, but there's really no catalyst for the desire to want to see more and, in comparison to games nowadays, there really is not all that much. Perhaps I'm spoiled by stuff like Skyrim (a game I don't even have a positive opinion of), but my adventures of traveling off the beaten paths of Morrowind so far have consisted of finding caves with mean people in them who want to kill me and finding nests and stuff. You guys seem to think I'm trying to disparage the game or something when I'm really trying to like it and understand why people froth at the mouth about it. I want to like this game, so I'm trying to have a discussion about it.


If you're asking every single NPC about directions to the nearest Fighter's Guild, to give you a little advice, latest rumors, etc. you'll certainly get tired of reading. If you're just reading the important stuff, and only engaging non-quest NPCs in conversation when you feel like it, the amount of reading is perfectly normal for an RPG.

Yeah, that I understand now. It just sucks 'cause I like talking to miscellaneous villagers in RPGs, it helps immerse me more.
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Offline Particle Person

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #622 on: July 25, 2014, 05:34:29 AM »
You're right. The game doesn't dangle shiny objects in front of your face to get your attention. It simply presents the world to you, and tells you that you're free to do as you wish. If that doesn't interest you, you probably won't like the game.

I feel like that's a vast embellishment of it. I love games where I can go off and do whatever I want and I generally do so. I'm not just talking about the main story, I'm talking about everything. Morrowind is a pretty interesting world, but there's really no catalyst for the desire to want to see more and, in comparison to games nowadays, there really is not all that much. Perhaps I'm spoiled by stuff like Skyrim (a game I don't even have a positive opinion of), but my adventures of traveling off the beaten paths of Morrowind so far have consisted of finding caves with mean people in them who want to kill me and finding nests and stuff. You guys seem to think I'm trying to disparage the game or something when I'm really trying to like it and understand why people froth at the mouth about it. I want to like this game, so I'm trying to have a discussion about it.

It's interesting that you feel spoiled by Skyrim, since it has fewer locations and less variety among them. Concerning dungeons: Skyrim has 176, which include Daedric shrines, caves, Dwemer ruins, mines, forts, and ruins. Morrowind has 224, and they include caves, ancestral tombs, daedric shrines and ruins, Dunmer strongholds, Dwemer ruins, grottos, mines, and Velothi towers.

Skyrim has 16 settlements, which range from major cities to minor cities to towns. The only variation in architecture is between the five major cities. Morrowind has 27 settlements, including Ashlander tribes, imperial towns, Dunmeri towns (Hlaalu, Redoran, or Telvanni), plantations, and the four major cities.

I could go on. Factions, weapons and armor, spell effects and enchantments, clothing, types of creatures, skills. There's more of pretty much everything in Morrowind. The claim that "there really is not all that much" compared to games nowadays is demonstrably false. I know this is definitely cheating, but include Tamriel Rebuilt in those numbers and you can quintuple everything. We may never see a mod of the same scale created for any other ES game.

Each interesting artifact in Skyrim is almost invariably both levelled and/or attached to a quest. In Morrowind, there are dozens of artifacts that you'll only find if you happen to stumble upon them, and they aren't scaled to your level.

Are you using any mods? MGSO (Morrowind Graphics and Sound Overhaul) is an excellent collection that does exactly what the name suggests. I'm very picky about my mod selection, so I'm usually wary of compilations like this, but it is assembled with great care. It's also comes with a very simple installer. Here's an album of some of shots of my setup.

I could froth at the mouth about Morrowind all day. I like hearing reactions from new players. Especially if they aren't enjoying it, because I like having my jeromes rumbled.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #623 on: July 25, 2014, 06:40:33 PM »
Right, Morrowind doesn't immediately shove you head first into another universe-threatening disaster as the only true hero of destiny who can put an end to the chaos. It's a tad more subtle. The sense of urgency in Skyrim is uncomfortable for any roleplayer who doesn't immediately want to begin the MQ.

But that's exactly what it does!  That's what all Elder Scrolls games do!  You're "the only true hero of destiny who can put an end to the chaos" from the moment the Emperor decides that you might fit the prophecy and ships you off to Vvardenfell.  The main difference when it comes to the "sense of urgency" is that in Morrowind, it's the other characters who aren't treating this super-important problem with the gravity and attention it deserves, rather than the player.  And it's far easier to maintain suspension of disbelief over the idiosyncrasies of the player character than those of the NPCs.

Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #624 on: July 25, 2014, 07:15:38 PM »
What do you mean with "super-important problem with the gravity and attention it deserves"? What would give you, the player character, the idea that it is a super-important problem when none of the NPCs tell you that? If anything, the game goes to great lengths in explaining that they've been dealing with the issue for a long time, and it's only natural that the inhabitants who are used to the protection of the Ghostfence aren't going crazy when seemingly nothing has changed. For most of the game, you're not even dealing with the problem, you're just finding out what the problem is and whether you actually fit the bill to be getting rid of it. It's not massively urgent when the problem has been existing for a long time in the game world.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #625 on: July 25, 2014, 07:24:40 PM »
Right, Morrowind doesn't immediately shove you head first into another universe-threatening disaster as the only true hero of destiny who can put an end to the chaos. It's a tad more subtle. The sense of urgency in Skyrim is uncomfortable for any roleplayer who doesn't immediately want to begin the MQ.

But that's exactly what it does!  That's what all Elder Scrolls games do!  You're "the only true hero of destiny who can put an end to the chaos" from the moment the Emperor decides that you might fit the prophecy and ships you off to Vvardenfell.

Yes, you're the hero in every game. Good observation. However, in Morrowings, you aren't beaten over the head with that fact right from the beginning. One of the first things you do in Skyrim's main quest is kill a dragon. If you don't get sidetracked at all, you'll be level 2 or 3 by this point. When you kill the dragon. It's as if the game is afraid you'll lose interest if you don't immediately feel muscular and powerful, so it begins with a pat on the back before it lovingly wipes the drool from your chin and gently nudges you toward the next quest marker.

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The main difference when it comes to the "sense of urgency" is that in Morrowind, it's the other characters who aren't treating this super-important problem with the gravity and attention it deserves, rather than the player.  And it's far easier to maintain suspension of disbelief over the idiosyncrasies of the player character than those of the NPCs.

Something tells me you haven't played very far into the main quest. Or spoken with an NPC. Everybody is afraid of the Blight and the spread of Red Mountain's influence. The Buoyant Armigers, the Temple's most powerful military order, are stationed at Ghostgate just to prevent the spread of anything from Red Mountain.

Still, the extent of Dagoth Ur's plans aren't immediately obvious. That's one of the major differences between the two stories. You don't start out as a hero in Morrowind, and the villian isn't as obnoxiously villianous. You don't discover that you're the Neravarine until fairly late in the MQ, and it actually feels like a momentous discovery. It feels like something truly earned. Killing a level-scaled (epic dragon pun) dragon in the first half of Act I does not.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:24:27 AM by Alexandyr »
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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #626 on: July 26, 2014, 04:53:09 AM »
When I talk about a missing sense of urgency, I'm basically referring to Caius, and by extension, his superiors in Cyrodiil.  It's obviously very important for them to see the prophecy fulfilled and stop Dagoth-Ur, or else the Emperor wouldn't be resorting to such measures as pardoning a convict and offering him a position in his elite spy agency.  But this simply doesn't jibe with how little they seem to care about you once you're off the boat.  Things like casually asking you to join the Blades and shrugging it off if you decline, not bothering to explain why you're so important, and immediately just assigning you pointless missions gathering information that they clearly already have - or else why would you even be here?

I understand what you're saying about subtlety, and I don't think that the game would have been improved if everyone was fawning over you right from the beginning like in Oblivion.  Instead, what they should have done was start it out like Daggerfall, with you already being a trusted agent of the Empire, sent to Vvardenfell to investigate rumors of the Sixth House and mysterious prophecies.  There, you meet your contact, Caius, who points you in the direction of people he's identified that might have information on these topics, and so on.  This way, you're the one who's putting the pieces together and figuring out what needs to be done, rather than it all having been decided ahead of time and behind your back by the Empire, which is now using you as a pawn while telling you as little as possible.

A change like that would have made for a more interesting draw into the story.  It doesn't need a juvenile power fantasy, as you apparently interpreted from my defense of Skyrim, but a sense of agency, a feeling that you yourself are an active character who is driving the plot forward.  Maybe this bugs me more than it does most people, but to put it simply, I don't like RPGs where your role extends to little more than being the toady of some other character or institution.  That's probably why I felt instinctively outraged when I heard about how this Trahearne fellow, even though I've never played GW2 and almost certainly never will.  And before anyone says it, yes, I know Caius eventually fucks off back to Cyrodiil, and it looks like the main quest gets a lot better from then on.  (No such luck with Oblivion. :()  I'm specifically criticizing the beginning, not the whole thing.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #627 on: July 26, 2014, 05:45:21 AM »
When I talk about a missing sense of urgency, I'm basically referring to Caius, and by extension, his superiors in Cyrodiil.  It's obviously very important for them to see the prophecy fulfilled and stop Dagoth-Ur, or else the Emperor wouldn't be resorting to such measures as pardoning a convict and offering him a position in his elite spy agency.  But this simply doesn't jibe with how little they seem to care about you once you're off the boat.  Things like casually asking you to join the Blades and shrugging it off if you decline, not bothering to explain why you're so important, and immediately just assigning you pointless missions gathering information that they clearly already have - or else why would you even be here?

You're given a coded message to deliver to an agent of the Emperor. That's about as serious as the game can be while still allowing you freedom of choice. Would you rather an armed escort deliver you to Caius directly? He doesn't shrug it off if you refuse to follow his orders. He actually becomes quite hostile (verbally). He doesn't explain anything to you initially because it isn't certain whether or not you can actually fulfill the Neravarine prophecy, and he doesn't have all the answers anyway.

The Empire is essentially doing what it can to prepare you to fulfill the Prophecy. This is why the first few missions involve gathering information about the Neravarine and the Sixth House. Caius can't just tell you himself, because he does not have the detailed information that the informants you soon meet provide through their notes and reading recommendations. That's why you deliver the notes to Caius. You would probably have a better understanding of this if you actually played the game instead of just reading about it.

Quote
I understand what you're saying about subtlety, and I don't think that the game would have been improved if everyone was fawning over you right from the beginning like in Oblivion.  Instead, what they should have done was start it out like Daggerfall, with you already being a trusted agent of the Empire, sent to Vvardenfell to investigate rumors of the Sixth House and mysterious prophecies.
 

You aren't really an Imperial agent in Daggerfall, just a good friend of the Emperor. Your character would never have an official affiliation with any political group before the game has even begun. That's entirely contrary to the spirit of the games.

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There, you meet your contact, Caius, who points you in the direction of people he's identified that might have information on these topics, and so on.  This way, you're the one who's putting the pieces together and figuring out what needs to be done, rather than it all having been decided ahead of time and behind your back by the Empire, which is now using you as a pawn while telling you as little as possible.

That's a really good idea. The first quest could have been something like visiting an informant, named, say, Hasphat Antabolis, to gather information about the Sixth House. The next quest could have you visit another informant, maybe an Orc this time, to receive notes further explaining the Neravarine Prophecy. Perhaps the next quest could involve visiting informants from a different city. Let's say Vivec. There could be three of them this time. Why didn't they do this?

Seriously, have you played this game?

A change like that would have made for a more interesting draw into the story.


mfw

« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 08:20:52 AM by Alexandyr »
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Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #628 on: July 26, 2014, 10:59:03 AM »
It's obviously very important for them to see the prophecy fulfilled and stop Dagoth-Ur, or else the Emperor wouldn't be resorting to such measures as pardoning a convict and offering him a position in his elite spy agency.  But this simply doesn't jibe with how little they seem to care about you once you're off the boat.

That's because they don't care. Very few people actually give a fuck about the prophecy of the Nerevarine, which is why you have to go around asking specific people about it. The official Empire stance is likely to be "just let the Tribunal do what they're doing", and given that the Nerevarine Cult is all about dismissing the Tribunal, I doubt they had the conscious choice in messing with it.

This is pretty much conjecture on my part, but I think Vivec was responsible in getting the Nerevarine pardoned and shipped off to Vvardenfell. He pretty much alone had a good idea of what Dagoth Ur was planning on doing, while the Tribunal was set on just passively protecting the Ghostfence. Now, here's one of the things I really like about Morrowind: you never do anything as the Nerevarine that another person couldn't have done as well. Contrast to Skyrim where you have the obvious superhero ability in dragon shouting. In fact, you never do anything that straight-up proves you're the Nerevarine, as all you ever do is get recognized as the Nerevarine, first by the Ashlanders and then by the Houses. But ultimately, being recognized would end up being good enough for Vivec's purposes, as the Nerevarine is effectively the only person Dagoth Ur would welcome in his base. Even when you go confront him at the end of the game, he shows disappointment that you're not there to join him instead, as he had expected. This makes the Nerevarine a prime candidate for putting the end to Dagoth Ur's plans, and Vivec was fully aware of that.

Conjecture aside, I don't know why you would assume something when the game is trying to tell you something else entirely. You're correctly interpreting the Imperial stance as not giving a fuck, so why are you so hellbent on thinking it's something else? Like Alexandyr put it,
Quote
Seriously, have you played this game?

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #629 on: July 26, 2014, 11:24:16 AM »
Really Saaddaam, stop reading about the game and just play it. I already regret posting the conversation with Dagoth Ur. If you keep saying wrong things I'll end up ruining the entire game trying to correct you. Although I would enjoy reading more of the funny wrong things you have to say, I would rather you just play the game and enjoy it. Same goes for Parsifail and Snupe Dogg, if you two are still trying. If you still don't like the game after giving it a reasonable chance you can return and I'll tell you why you were wrong.
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Offline xasop

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #630 on: July 26, 2014, 11:34:31 AM »
If you still don't like the game after giving it a reasonable chance you can return and I'll tell you why you were wrong.

I already hate this game. It doesn't even have basic functionality like the ability to knock your opponent over with shells, which Mario Kart has had for decades.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #631 on: July 26, 2014, 05:51:06 PM »
First of all, you two keep contradicting each other.  Stop tag-teaming me and start insulting each other.

Second of all, I have indeed played Morrowind for quite a while, and I do like it overall.  I'm just criticizing the beginning of the game as not being a very interesting introduction into the world and story, partially because it tells rather than shows, but mainly because the Empire has already been (to an extent) making arrangements and planning out your path from the very start, which I find to be a very undermining element in a RPG.  NO U

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #632 on: July 26, 2014, 06:00:50 PM »
Second of all, I have indeed played Morrowind for quite a while, and I do like it overall.  I'm just criticizing the beginning of the game as not being a very interesting introduction into the world and story, partially because it tells rather than shows, but mainly because the Empire has already been (to an extent) making arrangements and planning out your path from the very start, which I find to be a very undermining element in a RPG.  NO U

Nitpicking much? Oblvion and Skyrim do the exact same thing, Oblivion moreso than any other ES game. Your character's entire path is determined by higher powers. At least Morrowind's approach is the most subtle of them. Also, how does the main storyline really impact the gameplay as a whole? Can you not find any enjoyment in the adventure because your basic path is predetermined?

Not to mention that your entire path in any game ever made is determined by the developers who made the game. Why aren't you pissed about that? Seems like the same thing to me. Maybe you should stop playing video games?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 06:02:45 PM by Vauxhall »

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #633 on: July 27, 2014, 12:02:18 AM »
First of all, you two keep contradicting each other.  Stop tag-teaming me and start insulting each other.

Second of all, I have indeed played Morrowind for quite a while, and I do like it overall.  I'm just criticizing the beginning of the game as not being a very interesting introduction into the world and story, partially because it tells rather than shows, but mainly because the Empire has already been (to an extent) making arrangements and planning out your path from the very start, which I find to be a very undermining element in a RPG.  NO U

Your criticism is what gave you away as not knowing what you're talking about. You said the game would be better if it did exactly what it already does.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 12:14:11 AM by Alexandyr »
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Offline xasop

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #634 on: July 27, 2014, 02:36:32 AM »
Second of all, I have indeed played Morrowind for quite a while, and I do like it overall.  I'm just criticizing the beginning of the game as not being a very interesting introduction into the world and story, partially because it tells rather than shows, but mainly because the Empire has already been (to an extent) making arrangements and planning out your path from the very start, which I find to be a very undermining element in a RPG.  NO U

As someone who has never played an Elder Scrolls game before Morrowind, this is total and utter codswallop. Caius encourages you to go out and seek work. Granted, I only have experience with one of the alternatives he suggests, but I assume any other alternative would have you going out and exploring the world just as running errands for the Mages' Guild does.

If by "shows" you mean "waves in your face", then no, it doesn't. But it does encourage you to go out and see the world for yourself.
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Offline beardo

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #635 on: July 27, 2014, 03:12:54 AM »
Wealth beyond measure, outlander.
The Mastery.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #636 on: July 27, 2014, 03:25:27 AM »
Nitpicking much? Oblvion and Skyrim do the exact same thing, Oblivion moreso than any other ES game. Your character's entire path is determined by higher powers. At least Morrowind's approach is the most subtle of them. Also, how does the main storyline really impact the gameplay as a whole? Can you not find any enjoyment in the adventure because your basic path is predetermined?

Not to mention that your entire path in any game ever made is determined by the developers who made the game. Why aren't you pissed about that? Seems like the same thing to me. Maybe you should stop playing video games?

I have a feeling that you completely misunderstood my point.  I'm not talking about the actions of the player being determined, but the actions of the character itself, within the very context of the story.

Your criticism is what gave you away as not knowing what you're talking about. You said the game would be better if it did exactly what it already does.

No, I said the story would have been more interesting if they had let you approach it from the angle that you're the one who's actively investigating what's going on and trying to solve the mystery, not Caius and the Emperor doing it quietly behind the scenes.

As someone who has never played an Elder Scrolls game before Morrowind, this is total and utter codswallop. Caius encourages you to go out and seek work. Granted, I only have experience with one of the alternatives he suggests, but I assume any other alternative would have you going out and exploring the world just as running errands for the Mages' Guild does.

If by "shows" you mean "waves in your face", then no, it doesn't. But it does encourage you to go out and see the world for yourself.

I was really just referring to the main quest.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #637 on: July 27, 2014, 03:30:26 AM »
No, I said the story would have been more interesting if they had let you approach it from the angle that you're the one who's actively investigating what's going on and trying to solve the mystery, not Caius and the Emperor doing it quietly behind the scenes.

Are you reading what I'm posting? That is exactly how it works. Caius simply points you towards people that are familiar with Morrowind, its culture, and its religions and superstitions. You go to these people, do a small favor for them, and then they give you information in the form of dialogue, books, and notes. Hasphat even gives you the names of a few rare books you can find to learn more. The only thing the Emperor does behind the scenes is have you released. Caius doesn't know much more than you do about the Neravarine or House Dagon after you've completed the information gathering quests.

In other words check yourself before you vehk yourself
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 03:33:26 AM by Alexandyr »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #638 on: July 27, 2014, 04:33:52 AM »
I can now see why Saddam normally sticks to one post quips and evades entrenched arguments.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #639 on: July 27, 2014, 05:43:11 AM »
I don't hate Morrowind.  It does do a lot of things very well, and I'm still hoping that at some point way down the line I can get back to playing it.  But as far as its cult following goes, I suspect that a lot of that stems more from nostalgia and elitism than the actual merits of the game.  No, I'm not accusing anyone here of that; I just mean in general.

This is what really rotates my jeremies. There are many reasons this game has a fanatical following, and none of them are that it came out a long time ago. There are a lot of genuine reasons to prefer Morrowind over any other entry in the series, but because it's an older game detractors dismiss the zeal of its fans as nostalgia. Perhaps the only major thing that nostalgia really helps with is tolerating the vanilla graphics. I, like many people, have played the game consistently for 12 years. I've actually experienced more of its content after Oblivion and Skyrim's release than before, so I know my perception isn't distorted by nostalgia. As I've said before, it's my favorite item of entertainment media ever, and I'm not just saying that because I'm drunk. I've said it before.
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