Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #420 on: July 01, 2014, 12:54:42 AM »
Nice. I like playing as Khajit.

This is what happened last time I played Skyrim. Does this look normal to you?


*

Offline beardo

  • *
  • Posts: 5230
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #421 on: July 01, 2014, 12:57:57 AM »
No. It never did.
The Mastery.

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #422 on: July 01, 2014, 02:02:54 AM »
I rolled an Imperial Spellsword. Normally I would play as a Dunmer but I couldn't bear to look at those faces again.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #423 on: July 01, 2014, 05:15:51 AM »
I've said before that Morrowind's biggest flaw isn't the combat, but how clunky, convoluted, and generally just difficult to play it is.  And when I say "difficult," I don't mean the positive way that implies challenge and a sense of achievement, but the negative way that implies tedious busy work.  The inventory/equipment scene, with its tiny icons and forcing you to drag rather than click, is a nightmare.  The journal is an incoherent mess, even after you get the expansion that adds the categorization.  And the lack of quest markers is nothing more than a tedious time sink.  Yeah, I know that last one is going to be controversial, so I'll elaborate.  Finding the quest objectives by way of following simple directions is not more challenging, or somehow more indicative of being a smart, mature player than finding the objectives by way of following quest markers.  The only difference is that you're constantly having to stop and check your map/journal.

I don't hate Morrowind.  It does do a lot of things very well, and I'm still hoping that at some point way down the line I can get back to playing it.  But as far as its cult following goes, I suspect that a lot of that stems more from nostalgia and elitism than the actual merits of the game.  No, I'm not accusing anyone here of that; I just mean in general.

Offline Blanko

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #424 on: July 01, 2014, 05:23:16 AM »
tl;dr: filthy casual

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #425 on: July 01, 2014, 05:44:32 AM »
I've said before that Morrowind's biggest flaw isn't the combat, but how clunky, convoluted, and generally just difficult to play it is.

Oh boy.

Quote
And when I say "difficult," I don't mean the positive way that implies challenge and a sense of achievement, but the negative way that implies tedious busy work.

tl;dr

Quote
The inventory/equipment scene, with its tiny icons and forcing you to drag rather than click, is a nightmare.

This is a new one. I've never heard a complaint about this specific feature of the UI. The size of the icons depends on your resolution. "Drag rather than click" is a bit misleading, since you don't actually have to hold down the mouse button. You do have to click twice to equip or unequip something. This makes it more difficult to accidentally equip items in a cluttered inventory.

Quote
The journal is an incoherent mess, even after you get the expansion that adds the categorization.  And the lack of quest markers is nothing more than a tedious time sink.  Yeah, I know that last one is going to be controversial, so I'll elaborate.  Finding the quest objectives by way of following simple directions is not more challenging, or somehow more indicative of being a smart, mature player than finding the objectives by way of following quest markers.

How is following directions not more challenging than following a quest marker? Your entire complaint seems to be that it's more challenging, except you've used the word tedious instead.

Quote
The only difference is that you're constantly having to stop and check your map/journal.

No, that is not the only difference. The most important difference between the two methods is that one makes sense within the game world, and the other is an undisguised game mechanic. Quest markers require less effort from the players and developers. Written directions require you to pay attention to your surroundings and notice landmarks.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

*

Offline beardo

  • *
  • Posts: 5230
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #426 on: July 01, 2014, 06:01:51 AM »
"Could you go fetch my ring for me? I dropped it in a cave."
*magically know the exact location of said cave and ring*
The Mastery.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #427 on: July 01, 2014, 06:39:46 AM »
How is following directions not more challenging than following a quest marker? Your entire complaint seems to be that it's more challenging, except you've used the word tedious instead.

Quest markers require less effort from the players and developers. Written directions require you to pay attention to your surroundings and notice landmarks.

That's just busy work.  If you want to be pedantic, then yes, I suppose it is more "challenging" to open up your journal and read "Turn right at this rock," as opposed to simply knowing from the start to turn right at the rock.  I just don't think that's the kind of challenge that justifies having the player spend several seconds flipping through their journal, and when you take into account that they're going to have to do it multiple times each quest over dozens of quests, you're looking at a lot of potential tedium and frustration.

Quote
The most important difference between the two methods is that one makes sense within the game world, and the other is an undisguised game mechanic.

"Could you go fetch my ring for me? I dropped it in a cave."
*magically know the exact location of said cave and ring*

What if the quest givers had lines like "Here, let me mark that on your map for you"?  Would that make it okay?

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #428 on: July 01, 2014, 06:49:02 AM »
How is following directions not more challenging than following a quest marker? Your entire complaint seems to be that it's more challenging, except you've used the word tedious instead.

Quest markers require less effort from the players and developers. Written directions require you to pay attention to your surroundings and notice landmarks.

That's just busy work.  If you want to be pedantic, then yes, I suppose it is more "challenging" to open up your journal and read "Turn right at this rock," as opposed to simply knowing from the start to turn right at the rock.  I just don't think that's the kind of challenge that justifies having the player spend several seconds flipping through their journal, and when you take into account that they're going to have to do it multiple times each quest over dozens of quests, you're looking at a lot of potential tedium and frustration.

Then we'll just have to disagree to disagree. I think a method of directing the player that is actually integrated with the game world is worth a few seconds of reading. I should clarify that this isn't something that needs to be done multiple times for each quest. Most quests in the game either don't require directions or only require very simple directions like "travel to this inn". Those quests that do require instructions for navigation only have you follow the directions once.

Quote
What if the quest givers had lines like "Here, let me mark that on your map for you"?  Would that make it okay?

Sometimes they do. I'm not sure why that would change my opinion of the quest marker.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #429 on: July 01, 2014, 06:12:49 PM »
Wouldn't that explain how you know where to go, rather than having to follow a set of directions?  I agree that when you're inside a dungeon, having a marker is kind of silly, but I don't think it's a big stretch to be able to mark down on your map where you're going in the overworld.

Also, Morrowind in TESO is quite accurate to the lore and its prior depiction.  I mean, Vvardenfell itself isn't available to explore, and if it ever is, it probably won't match up topographically to Morrowind, but I have no complaints about how the mainland looks or how the inhabitants act.  The Dunmer talk about the Tribunal and complain about their new allies all the time.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7653
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #430 on: July 01, 2014, 06:15:36 PM »
Quest markers are an invaluable addition to any RPG.  Yes its more "real" to not have them but since you can't ask for directions or ask for more specific directions or clarification then it turns into a game of geographical hide an seek.

Imagine if you were told to go to a location you'd never been to before and all you had was "its on the northern side of the cliffs.  You'll know it from the rock that looks like a wolf if you look at it just the right way". It would SUCK!
And its not like you can ask him questions like " is it closer to the bridge or the town?".

So OK they put a giant mark on the map.  Great... So now you have to make sure to look at the map all the time to figure out if you're going the right way.  But unlike real maps, game maps may not be visible while walking. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #431 on: July 01, 2014, 06:22:33 PM »
I can see both sides of the quest marker argument. Morrowind's quest system seemingly adds depth and immersion, but it is also far more tedious than Oblivion's (I won't even get into Skyrim's). However, I have played a good bit of Morrowind (never beat it, but spent about 70 hours in it) and the journal system, while annoying, isn't too bad. Like Alex mentioned, you don't really need to refer back to your journal that often because its easy to understand exactly where you need to go. I rarely got completely lost in Morrowind, but I did get side-tracked and off-the-beaten-path several times because of a lack of quest markers. Getting lost isn't necessarily a bad thing in a game like Morrowind, because I would often run into other things to do that I wouldn't have discovered otherwise.

The journal itself in Morrowind is a huge problem though. I hated having to go through pages of fluff just to find out what to do for a quest that I picked up several hours earlier. I am willing to put up with it though, because it does add to the immersion and depth to the game. Realistically, quest markers aren't going to appear on the over world. It makes sense that you'd have to record all your thoughts and tasks in a journal instead of a sci-fi looking menu (talking about Skyrim). Oblivion does it better than Skyrim, since it meshes Morrowind's journal system with newer concepts (like markers). Realism is pretentious and overrated in video games, however. Morrowind is an RPG, the G stands for game. Not everything needs to be realistic. Quest markers and a less messy journal system would have improved Morrowind in the long run: making it more accessible and less intimidating.

All this talk about Morrowind is making me want to play it again. But I'd have to settle for the original xbox game-of-the-year version because I don't have a working computer right now. I like the Xbox version, but the load times are ridiculous (understatement).

Every time I try to play Morrowind I noob it up and end up dying a lot due to whiffs and magic failure. Is there a build that I should focus on that is easier for beginners to pick up and play? I like playing as Red Mage-esque characters (jack of all trades).
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 06:38:23 PM by Vauxhall »

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #432 on: July 01, 2014, 08:09:44 PM »
Wouldn't that explain how you know where to go, rather than having to follow a set of directions?  I agree that when you're inside a dungeon, having a marker is kind of silly, but I don't think it's a big stretch to be able to mark down on your map where you're going in the overworld.

That wouldn't explain why there's a quest marker attached to your objective.

Imagine if you were told to go to a location you'd never been to before and all you had was "its on the northern side of the cliffs.  You'll know it from the rock that looks like a wolf if you look at it just the right way". It would SUCK!
And its not like you can ask him questions like " is it closer to the bridge or the town?".

I don't need to imagine, because there are games (that don't suck) that use this system. When the directions are well written, it works perfectly.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #433 on: July 01, 2014, 08:14:09 PM »
So OK they put a giant mark on the map.  Great... So now you have to make sure to look at the map all the time to figure out if you're going the right way.  But unlike real maps, game maps may not be visible while walking. 

Arma allows you to use maps while moving in a really realistic fashion. But it's a military sim, so..

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #434 on: July 01, 2014, 08:43:36 PM »
16:13   Saddam   On the notion of Ashlanders
16:13   beardo   Have you offended any yet?
16:14   beardo   Have you been challenged yet?
16:15   Saddam   [One of them] just ran up to me and asked me to help his tribe
16:15   beardo   An Ashlander asking a Nord for help.
16:15   Saddam   Yes
16:15   beardo   He must be desperate
16:16   beardo   Also, why are Ashlanders on the mainland?
16:16   Saddam   I have to help the wise woman of his tribe convince the war chieftain to stop attacking a Tribunal temple
16:16   Saddam   That's not a bad story for a quest
16:16   beardo   how's your speechcraft?
16:16   Saddam   But they could have begun it in a more...realistic fashion
16:17   Saddam   Speech is not a skill in this game
16:17   Saddam   I don't think it is, anyway
16:17   beardo   not playing

*

Offline Vongeo

  • *
  • Posts: 634
  • I don't get it either
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #435 on: July 02, 2014, 07:33:27 AM »
16:13   Saddam   On the notion of Ashlanders
16:13   beardo   Have you offended any yet?
16:14   beardo   Have you been challenged yet?
16:15   Saddam   [One of them] just ran up to me and asked me to help his tribe
16:15   beardo   An Ashlander asking a Nord for help.
16:15   Saddam   Yes
16:15   beardo   He must be desperate
16:16   beardo   Also, why are Ashlanders on the mainland?
16:16   Saddam   I have to help the wise woman of his tribe convince the war chieftain to stop attacking a Tribunal temple
16:16   Saddam   That's not a bad story for a quest
16:16   beardo   how's your speechcraft?
16:16   Saddam   But they could have begun it in a more...realistic fashion
16:17   Saddam   Speech is not a skill in this game
16:17   Saddam   I don't think it is, anyway
16:17   beardo   not playing
Its a perk, you have to mages guild to get.
Maple syrup was a kind of candy, made from the blood of trees.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #436 on: July 03, 2014, 01:19:15 AM »
Yes, there's the "Persuade NPCs" perk, and the Fighters Guild skill line has the "Intimidate NPCs" perk, but they don't make up a skill in and of themselves.

I can't stand the way that the quests/activities/enemies of similar levels are all lumped together in the same zones.  You're supposed to toughen yourself up in the noob zone, and then you can move on to the next zone that has slightly higher-level content, and once you're powerful enough you move on to yet another zone, and so on.  It's ridiculous.  I'm already sick of Morrowind, but I can't go to Skyrim because I'll get slaughtered by the enemies along the way.  And even if I did make it there, I wouldn't be able to do anything because all the content there would be high-level.  Apparently everything and everyone in Skyrim is just way more powerful than everything and everyone in Morrowind.  Bet you didn't realize that while playing their respective games.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 06:27:13 AM by Saddam Hussein »

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8569
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #437 on: July 03, 2014, 01:47:53 AM »
I can't stand the way that the quests/activities/enemies of similar levels are all lumped together in the same zones.  You're supposed to toughen yourself up in the noob zone, and then you can move on to the next zone that has slightly higher-level content, and once you're powerful enough you move on to yet another zone, and so on.  It's ridiculous.  I'm already sick of Morrowind, but I can't go to Skyrim because I'll get slaughtered by the enemies along the way.  And even if I did make it there, I wouldn't be able to do anything because all the content there would be high-level.  Apparently everything and everyone in Skyrim is just way more powerful than everything and everyone in Morrowind.  Bet you didn't realize that while playing their respective games.

It's almost as if gameplay trumps lore or something. If ESO implemented what you're suggesting the game would be a clusterfuck.

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7653
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #438 on: July 03, 2014, 01:48:25 AM »
I can't stand the way that the quests/activities/enemies of similar levels are all lumped together in the same zones.  You're supposed to toughen yourself up in the noob zone, and then you can move on to the next zone that has slightly higher-level content, and once you're powerful enough you move on to yet another zone, and so on.  It's ridiculous.  I'm already sick of Morrowind, but I can't go to Skyrim because I'll get slaughtered by the enemies along the way.  And even if I did make it there, I wouldn't be able to do anything because all the content there would be high-level.  Apparently everything and everyone in Skyrim is just way more powerful than everything and everyone in Morrowind.  Bet you didn't realize that while playing their respective games.

So then what happens if you roll a Nord?  Do you NOT start in Skyrim?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online
« Reply #439 on: July 03, 2014, 01:49:38 AM »
I can't stand the way that the quests/activities/enemies of similar levels are all lumped together in the same zones.  You're supposed to toughen yourself up in the noob zone, and then you can move on to the next zone that has slightly higher-level content, and once you're powerful enough you move on to yet another zone, and so on.  It's ridiculous.  I'm already sick of Morrowind, but I can't go to Skyrim because I'll get slaughtered by the enemies along the way.  And even if I did make it there, I wouldn't be able to do anything because all the content there would be high-level.  Apparently everything and everyone in Skyrim is just way more powerful than everything and everyone in Morrowind.  Bet you didn't realize that while playing their respective games.

It's almost as if gameplay trumps lore or something. If ESO implemented what you're suggesting the game would be a clusterfuck.

What Saddam is describing isn't good lore or gameplay. He also didn't suggest anything.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.