[Tau]

Most Muslims believe what the Qur'an tells them about non-Muslims. After reading it three times, and studying in a Mosque for two years before becoming observant, I know this. You evidently do not. Read the Sunnah as well, where these beliefs are confirmed. And every Muslim I ever met confirmed that nearly all of them upheld Qur'anic standards. One almost has to.

I'm not convinced you've ever met a muslim

Ask me if I give a shit what you're convinced of.

Why are you trying to convince us of things if you don't care what we think? Anyway, your characterization of muslims is highly in-congruent with my own experiences. Several of my fellow students are from the countries you would like to bomb (Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Oman, etc.) and none express the beliefs you're claiming they should.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Mention Israel to them and see what their beliefs are. Ask the "Palestinian" about his so-called "Right of Return". Ask him about al Nakbha. Ask the Egyptian to tell you HONESTLY about the life of Christians in the country, if he has the balls. Ask the Jordanian to tell you about the Government's recent request that Jewish visitors to that Kingdom not come looking openly like Orthodox Jews, for fear for their safety. That's just for starters.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Oh, and be sure to ask the "Palestinian" if he believes that the Jews ever had a Temple where the Dome of the Rock monstrosity now sits. If he actually admits that we did, ask him why so many of his compatriots deny it and watch him squirm.

[Ghost Spaghetti]

Maybe your being an asshole to people affects how kindly they look upon your cause...

[jroa]

Ask the Palestinians how it feels to have their country taken from them and to then get treated like second class citizens. 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Ask the Palestinians how it feels to have their country taken from them and to then get treated like second class citizens.

JROA, ask him why his people ever went there in the first place, since the Jews have a history that dates back there 4,000 years. Oh, and hand him a rock, and see if he has autonomic nerve function that causes him to throw it without thinking first.

[jroa]

Ask the Palestinians how it feels to have their country taken from them and to then get treated like second class citizens.

JROA, ask him why his people ever went there in the first place, since the Jews have a history that dates back there 4,000 years. Oh, and hand him a rock, and see if he has autonomic nerve function that causes him to throw it without thinking first.

DNA tests have proven that many (if not most) of the Palestinians have been there as long, or longer, than any Jews.  Oh, and speaking of throwing rocks, why do 8 year old Palestinian kids have to be escorted by IDF troops on their way to school in the "settled" areas just because the adult "settlers" can't resist throwing rocks at them?   Pot, meet kettle. 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Bullshit. I'm talking about the fact that Jews were there first. Arabs got there in the 600's. Or, if they ARE in fact Canaanites, then they are under Biblical ban and should be killed outright according to Torah Law, if you really want to go that far. I won't, myself. Deportation will satisfy me. And frankly, I don't care about children needing protection. Maybe if their parents didn't throw rockets and rocks it wouldn't be an issue.

[jroa]

Correction, Islam got there around the 600s, there were people there before Islam, and some of them became Muslim.  The people who were there prior to Islam may have been Canaanites, or they could have been of any number of other people who have lived on the land since before written records. 

By the way, DNA testing has shown that the Jew and Palestinians share common ancestors.  How can you say that the land belongs Jews, especially since there has not been very much of a Jewish presence there between the time that the Roman Empire governed the land and a half century ago? 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

We've been over this. In SEVERAL threads. I am not going over it again. Evidently, your education is not extensive enough for you to know what you are talking about. So I shall leave the matter here, so you don't embarrass yourself further.

[garygreen]

Most Muslims believe what the Qur'an tells them about non-Muslims. After reading it three times, and studying in a Mosque for two years before becoming observant, I know this. You evidently do not. Read the Sunnah as well, where these beliefs are confirmed. And every Muslim I ever met confirmed that nearly all of them upheld Qur'anic standards. One almost has to.

I'm with Tausami.  None of thing rings true to my own experiences, especially in the Middle East.  I'm no expert, but I did spend nearly a month in Jordan in 2014, and I absolutely did talk to the people I met about Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, Palestine, Israel, etc.  I encountered none of the hatred and bigotry you describe.  Not once in that time did I hear anyone express an opinion even close to being as hateful as yours are about Arabs.  Probably the most violent reaction toward Israel that I encountered was something to the effect of "Jews are assholes, and I wish they would just leave everyone alone."  That's pretty much nothing compared to the hateful shit you say on these fora on a regular basis.  You're one of the most hateful people I've encountered in my life.  I didn't meet anyone in Jordan as nasty or hateful as you are.  Keep telling me about how you're on the side of righteousness, please.

Now I'm not saying that Amman is just as secular and liberal as, say, London.  Good luck finding a synagogue.  They obviously do not have the same religious/cultural freedoms in their societies that we do.  And there's nothing inherently evil about that.  Every society draws a different line.  No one tried to kill me, convert me, tax me, or really even argue with me about anything.

You are very, very fond of reminding everyone that you've studied at a mosque for two years.  You've brought it up...literally dozens and dozens of times.  Do you ever think that maybe visiting a mosque in America doesn't complete the picture of what it is to be a Muslim in the Middle East?  Or that maybe such a statement is nonsense on its face since Islam, like Christianity, can be broken up into many smaller factions with mutually exclusive beliefs?  I mean, for all we know you studied at Islam's version of Westboro Baptist. 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I never suggested my right wing attitude on "Palestine" was conventional for Judaism. In fact, most Jews of my acquaintance do NOT share my views. They still believe in the Two-State Solution. I did too, for MANY YEARS. I don't now, because my education has taught me that it is unrealistic and stupid to do so. But even in Israel, 85% of Israeli Jews (at least before the last war with Gaza) still believed in it.

I have said that many times in this forum as well. Perhaps you are all reading only that which you wish to read. Hell, I have even said, more than once, that if they would be willing to stop throwing their effing rockets, I might even be willing to reconsider, and that against my better judgement. But they haven't, and won't, I don't expect. So I have had no reason to actually go that route.

But I freely admit, my views are more in line with a hard-core Orthodox Right Wing view that is not conventional here in the US or in Israel. I have never denied that.

[jroa]

We've been over this. In SEVERAL threads. I am not going over it again. Evidently, your education is not extensive enough for you to know what you are talking about. So I shall leave the matter here, so you don't embarrass yourself further.

I am sorry to challenge your feeling of entitlement for people of your religion.  I am simply pointing out all of the flaws in your statements.  If you do not want for me to repeat myself, then quit making false statements. 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I am not making false statements. You are. And stupid ones, for that matter. There was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in the Holy Land, even after the Romans. And the Muslim/Arabs are exactly that. And invaders in a land that is not theirs, like the British in India. They need to leave, like the British in India. Or be dealt wish some harsher way.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Well, I have more important things to do than debate this subject for about the 90th time. So, I shall bid you all fond adieu at present. Have a wonderful day all.

[jroa]

I am not making false statements. You are. And stupid ones, for that matter. There was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in the Holy Land, even after the Romans. And the Muslim/Arabs are exactly that. And invaders in a land that is not theirs, like the British in India. They need to leave, like the British in India. Or be dealt wish some harsher way.

I did not say there were no Jews there during that period.  I said they did not have a major presence there, compared to other religions.  Jews have not been the majority there since the rise of Christianity, as this table shows.  Now, thousands of years later, your people claim a right to the land because an an oral story of a crazy guy with voices in his head written in an old book hundreds or thousands of years after the fact says so.  And you have the nerve to call me stupid? 

Also, as I have pointed out to you before, Israel is by definition an Arab country, regardless of whether it is run by Jews or by Muslims.  And, Arab does not mean Muslim, as you so often like to pretend. 

[garygreen]

I'm not 100% sure you were responding to me, but I assume you were.

I never suggested my right wing attitude on "Palestine" was conventional for Judaism. In fact, most Jews of my acquaintance do NOT share my views. They still believe in the Two-State Solution. I did too, for MANY YEARS. I don't now, because my education has taught me that it is unrealistic and stupid to do so. But even in Israel, 85% of Israeli Jews (at least before the last war with Gaza) still believed in it.

Indeed.  I didn't say otherwise.  On the contrary, the Jews I encountered in Jordan were delightful people.  They also weren't being killed or converted or taxed or bothered in any way.  Your narrative of Islam and the Arab world runs completely counter to my experiences.  That's not to say that my experiences are universal or that there is no anti-semitism in the Arab world.  My point is that your reduction of Islam to a moral philosophy of violence, exclusion, and bigotry, is facile.

I have said that many times in this forum as well. Perhaps you are all reading only that which you wish to read. Hell, I have even said, more than once, that if they would be willing to stop throwing their effing rockets, I might even be willing to reconsider, and that against my better judgement. But they haven't, and won't, I don't expect. So I have had no reason to actually go that route.

I think your understanding of who "they" are is problematic.  If by "they" you mean "the Palestinians," then your statement is nonsensical.  The overwhelming majority of the Palestinian people are not throwing rockets at Israel.  They're simply living where they were born.  Since Israel literally won't let them leave, I'm not sure what else they're supposed to do.

If by "they" you mean "Hamas," then I guess you're just advocating collective punishment.  And naively, too.  "The Palestinians can have their human rights back as soon as the terrorists who are locked into this almost-literal-terrorist-factory we built stop being terrorists and stop producing more terrorists."  Ok.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I am not making false statements. You are. And stupid ones, for that matter. There was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in the Holy Land, even after the Romans. And the Muslim/Arabs are exactly that. And invaders in a land that is not theirs, like the British in India. They need to leave, like the British in India. Or be dealt wish some harsher way.

I did not say there were no Jews there during that period.  I said they did not have a major presence there, compared to other religions.  Jews have not been the majority there since the rise of Christianity, as this table shows.  Now, thousands of years later, your people claim a right to the land because an an oral story of a crazy guy with voices in his head written in an old book hundreds or thousands of years after the fact says so.  And you have the nerve to call me stupid? 

Also, as I have pointed out to you before, Israel is by definition an Arab country, regardless of whether it is run by Jews or by Muslims.  And, Arab does not mean Muslim, as you so often like to pretend. 

No one defines Israel as part of Arabia except you and the few perverted books you like to read. Certainly the Bible doesn't.  And the Levant, which is what Israel is a part of, has never been classified as part of Arabia. The fact that you choose to redefine geography to suit your PC needs is your fucked up problem not mine, much like those PC Australians who call themselves part of Asia.

And let's face it, 95 percent of all Arabs are Muslims, although Arabs only make up 23% of the world Muslim population, that is true. I actually probably know the figures better than you do, so I would advise you not to lecture, because in doing so, you make yourself look like a fool.

And, despite all your tables and etc, the fact is, we have our country back. It is ours, and always will be. So, fundamentally, the Arabs, and anybody else, can kiss our collective butts if they don't like it. It is that simple.

The Land of Israel is ours, and we got it back. And eventually, Greater Israel will be ours too. And people who don't like it can just deal with it, Or whine, the way you all do. My response. Tough shit.

[Mostlyharmless]

Most Muslims believe what the Qur'an tells them about non-Muslims. After reading it three times, and studying in a Mosque for two years before becoming observant, I know this. You evidently do not. Read the Sunnah as well, where these beliefs are confirmed. And every Muslim I ever met confirmed that nearly all of them upheld Qur'anic standards. One almost has to.

I'm not convinced you've ever met a muslim

Ask me if I give a shit what you're convinced of.

Every Muslim I've ever met doesn't care about non Muslims, and doesn't follow the qu'ran's approach to them, much like most Christians.

[Tau]

Why does it matter who's lived in an area longer? Who gives a shit? What matters is who lives there now. You can't kick all of the Americans out of America and give it back to the Natives, and you can't kick all of the Palestinians out of Palestine and give it to the Jews, nor can you do the reverse to give it to the Palestinians. It doesn't really matter who has a more valid claim to the land, what matters is all the people getting fucked over by the current situation (which is to say, all of them).