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Offline Rushy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #200 on: May 13, 2022, 04:10:53 PM »
Is the current legislation in the USA making it impossible for a boyfriend to abandon his pregnant girlfriend, or is there indication that SCOTUS plans to rule along those lines?

The legal system's response to a man abandoning his pregnant girlfriend is complex. In some cases, it is legal to fully abandon a child and recuse yourself from parental rights. In other cases, even if you do not want the child and legally state as such, you can be required to pay child support. It really depends on what state you are in and what judges are on your case as well as how good of a lawyer the mother of your child can afford.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #201 on: May 13, 2022, 04:54:22 PM »
A woman gets pregnant and aborts her unborn child to "do what was best for herself". This is considered acceptable.

A man learns that his girlfriend is pregnant and immediately abandons her and his unborn child to "do what was best for himself". This is considered unacceptable.

Why?

There are no medical or social consequences for the man. She might have to suffer medical complications, she might be unable to work at some point over the 9 mth pregnancy and thereafter, and a whole host of other downsides that will not affect the man at all.

In simplistic terms, he's not walking away from the same things as she is. He's shirking support and financial issues only, far lesser issues than the mother.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #202 on: May 14, 2022, 06:16:58 AM »
The legal system's response to a man abandoning his pregnant girlfriend is complex. In some cases, it is legal to fully abandon a child and recuse yourself from parental rights. In other cases, even if you do not want the child and legally state as such, you can be required to pay child support. It really depends on what state you are in and what judges are on your case as well as how good of a lawyer the mother of your child can afford.
Sounds like another case of a law that's only there if you're poor.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #203 on: May 14, 2022, 08:45:39 AM »
Referring back to the "clump of cells" argument around page 8, there's a few other thoughts that may well need consideration ...

Does child support start at conception? If, so -
Can the foetus be considered eligible for life insurance?
If an immigrant or tourist gets pregnant while on US soil, does she then have to stay in the USA for 9 months, as she has a US citizen inside her?
If the foetus is now regarded as a person, how can pregnant woman be imprisoned? Surely the foetus is innocent, and it's immoral to imprison it as well as the mother carrying it?
If the mother dies in childbirth, but the foetus/baby does not, then does its new-found status make it guilty of involuntary manslaughter? 
Americans currently cannot claim a foetus as a dependent for tax purposes, as the IRS does not regard it as a person. Should this change?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #204 on: May 14, 2022, 03:22:43 PM »
A woman gets pregnant and aborts her unborn child to "do what was best for herself". This is considered acceptable.

A man learns that his girlfriend is pregnant and immediately abandons her and his unborn child to "do what was best for himself". This is considered unacceptable.

Why?

There are no medical or social consequences for the man. She might have to suffer medical complications, she might be unable to work at some point over the 9 mth pregnancy and thereafter, and a whole host of other downsides that will not affect the man at all.

In simplistic terms, he's not walking away from the same things as she is. He's shirking support and financial issues only, far lesser issues than the mother.

There are social consequences for a man abandoning his unborn child, that is incorrect.

Sure, there is a difference, and a woman may suffer medical complications. But you are now arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons. Since we know that this is not what you believe, we can see that this is a disingenuous line of reasoning.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #205 on: May 14, 2022, 04:35:22 PM »
Sure, there is a difference, and a woman may suffer medical complications. But you are now arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons.
Do you think that there are valid medical reasons for a woman to have an abortion?  There are, after all, a number of different medical conditions and developmental abnormalities that would cause the pregnancy to be nonviable and even life threatening to the woman.  Should those medically necessary abortions be outlawed as well?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #206 on: May 14, 2022, 05:06:53 PM »
... you are now arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons.

Um, don't think I am...
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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #207 on: May 14, 2022, 05:33:55 PM »
A woman gets pregnant and aborts her unborn child to "do what was best for herself". This is considered acceptable.

A man learns that his girlfriend is pregnant and immediately abandons her and his unborn child to "do what was best for himself". This is considered unacceptable.

Why?

There are no medical or social consequences for the man. She might have to suffer medical complications, she might be unable to work at some point over the 9 mth pregnancy and thereafter, and a whole host of other downsides that will not affect the man at all.

In simplistic terms, he's not walking away from the same things as she is. He's shirking support and financial issues only, far lesser issues than the mother.

There are social consequences for a man abandoning his unborn child, that is incorrect.

Sure, there is a difference, and a woman may suffer medical complications. But you are now arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons. Since we know that this is not what you believe, we can see that this is a disingenuous line of reasoning.

I don't know what you mean by "social" ramifications. But I'm unclear if there are ramifications if a man abandons an unborn child. But there are certainly ramifications if a man abandons a born child.

What are the ramifications, "social" or otherwise, for abandoning an unborn child?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #208 on: May 15, 2022, 03:06:42 AM »
... you are now arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons.

Um, don't think I am...

I asked why a man abandoning his unborn child was considered unacceptable and why a woman aborting her unborn child was considered acceptable. You answered that it was mainly because a woman faced possible medical complications.

Therefore you are arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons, as that is the main difference between acceptable and unacceptable according to you.

Granted that this makes no sense since you guys do not believe that, but this is only a consequence of having double standards and poor morals on this abortion subject overall.

I don't know what you mean by "social" ramifications. But I'm unclear if there are ramifications if a man abandons an unborn child. But there are certainly ramifications if a man abandons a born child.

What are the ramifications, "social" or otherwise, for abandoning an unborn child?

I am confident that you can figure that one out for yourself. Try telling your family that you abandoned your unborn child after learning that your partner was pregnant.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 03:44:32 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline honk

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #209 on: May 15, 2022, 04:11:57 AM »
Nobody would care about a man abandoning an unborn child without the prior assumption that the child will be born, and therefore the man will be expected to be a father. That's why they're doing the abandoning in the first place, isn't it?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #210 on: May 15, 2022, 04:35:48 AM »
It is considered unacceptable for a man to abandon his unborn child upon learning that his partner was pregnant regardless of whether the child is later born or killed by abortion.

Somehow it is acceptable for a woman to abandon responsibility to her unborn child, but it is unacceptable for a man to do it.

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Offline honk

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #211 on: May 15, 2022, 05:27:39 AM »
It is considered unacceptable for a man to abandon his unborn child upon learning that his partner was pregnant regardless of whether the child is later born or killed by abortion.

Yes, because of the assumption that the child will be born; hence his abandoning her in the first place. If it were clearly understood beforehand that she was getting an abortion, than any "abandonment" of her on his part would be entirely unnotable and no different to any other breakup. We don't hear about those cases precisely because of their lack of notability. This isn't any sort of tacit societal admission that fetuses are important whether they're born or not.

Quote
Somehow it is acceptable for a woman to abandon responsibility to her unborn child, but it is unacceptable for a man to do it.

Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.
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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #212 on: May 15, 2022, 05:50:21 AM »
Somehow it is acceptable for a woman to abandon responsibility to her unborn child, but it is unacceptable for a man to do it.

You’re not making any sense.

How is it acceptable for a woman to abandon responsibility to her unborn child via abortion when people like you in society think that is an unacceptable act? As you’re screaming at her that she is baby killer as she’s walking into planned parenthood.

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Online xasop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #213 on: May 15, 2022, 08:30:49 AM »
Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.
No, Tom happens to be right on this particular issue. If the man wants the woman to get an abortion, and she declines, he should have no obligation (legal or social) to 18 years of financial support for a child he doesn't want.
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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #214 on: May 15, 2022, 01:56:19 PM »
"oh so you support the right to abortion, but you also support the right to dislike deadbeat dads??" is not exactly the brutal takedown y'all think it is.

If the man wants the woman to get an abortion, and she declines, he should have no obligation (legal or social) to 18 years of financial support for a child he doesn't want.

lol aside from the fact that this is absurdly illogical, you're just creating a legal loophole for literally every man to get out of having to pay any child support simply by saying he wanted to get an abortion.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 02:23:57 PM by garygreen »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #215 on: May 15, 2022, 03:34:01 PM »
Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.

This is an argument that women have absolute right over their body. They do not. It is widely illegal in most areas to abort after a certain number of weeks, even in very liberal areas in the US. The woman is forced by the law to carry the baby and is forced to give birth, even if she doesn't want to. They do not have a choice. This shows that women do not have the right to do what they want with their bodies.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 03:40:41 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2022, 03:42:03 PM »
Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.

This argument assumes that women have absolute right over their body. They do not. It is widely illegal in most areas to abort after a certain number of weeks, even in very liberal areas in the US. The woman is forced by the law to carry the baby and is forced to give birth, even if she doesn't want to. This shows that the consensus is that women do not have the right to do what they want with their bodies.

Not everywhere:

"States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont."
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/what-states-allow-late-term-abortion

And if we were to examine the overall issue based on consensus, the national majority consensus is that RvW should remain in place.

U.S. Public Continues to Favor Legal Abortion, Oppose Overturning Roe v. Wade


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2022, 03:54:08 PM »
Not everywhere:

"States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont."
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/what-states-allow-late-term-abortion

That's 8 out of 50, and DC is not a state. Even liberal cesspits like California and New York impose bans on abortion after a certain number of weeks. Most areas have decided that women do not have a right over their bodies.

Quote from: stack
And if we were to examine the overall issue based on consensus, the national majority consensus is that RvW should remain in place.

That might hold water if the US was founded to combine state health laws into a unified national laws, but it was decided that states would be largely independent entities with its own laws on a state level. The states decide on their own abortion laws, as illustrated by the xx week bans and other abortion laws already in place. The Supreme Court got rid of the errant national precedent from RvW and rightly turned it over to the states to decide for themselves democratically.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 04:14:08 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Online xasop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2022, 04:54:22 PM »
lol aside from the fact that this is absurdly illogical, you're just creating a legal loophole for literally every man to get out of having to pay any child support simply by saying he wanted to get an abortion.
Not necessarily. There are ways of implementing that idea which do not have such consequences. Assuming the least generous possible implementation of someone else's stated principle is not a very honest way to debate.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2022, 04:59:55 PM »
Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.

This is an argument that women have absolute right over their body. They do not.
Do women have the right to choose to not have children?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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