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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #120 on: May 10, 2022, 02:05:59 AM »
I wouldn't say that's the most extreme position. The most extreme position would probably be the act of conception. But that seems to be up for revision by the Supreme Court as well.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #121 on: May 10, 2022, 02:30:26 AM »
Those "hard" questions mostly just trivialize the fact that people very overwhelmingly have abortions out of personal irresponsibility, not because they were put into a difficult moral situation involving family incest or rapists. The answers will be state-specific, after long discussion of the pros and cons by the state and state legislature.

For a man, the situation is already that if you bring a life into the world you are responsible for it. In many cases men are sentenced to 18 years of servitude when a pregnancy occurs, and feel that it is against their will. The society response is: "Your fault, pay up!"

This simply needs to apply to women as well. Instead of edge cases how about discussing the following:

- Why should women continue to be allowed to be personally irresponsible when a pregnancy occurs? Men are not allowed personal irresponsibility when pregnancy occurs.

- A father is legally responsible to use his body to support his children. Why shouldn't a mother be legally responsible?

- Why should it really matter at what week the pregnancy is terminated? In each case it is a human life who wants to live. You are physically stopping the life of an innocent being for selfish reasons, and are artificially justifying that you are morally okay because you executed it when it was young enough, as if age is a factor in human murder and there is a moral difference between killing a one month old infant and killing an elderly man and that one situation is more murderous than the other. Disturbing.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 04:29:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #122 on: May 10, 2022, 03:01:25 AM »
Y'all are the disturbing ones. Forcing irresponsible horny people to be parents. Shameful.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #123 on: May 10, 2022, 03:05:23 AM »
Y'all are the disturbing ones. Forcing irresponsible horny people to be parents. Shameful.
Children are nature's punishment for enjoying sex.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #124 on: May 10, 2022, 06:39:22 AM »
Why should it really matter at what week the pregnancy is terminated? In each case it is a human life who wants to live.
A clump of cells doesn’t “want” anything and by no sensible definition would you declare it a human life.

The question for you is why do you think laws should be made which the majority of people do not support? Why should the minority dictate to the majority? Is it simply because on this occasion you agree with those laws? That isn’t democracy. When Brexit happened I was butthurt, as the kids are saying, but as woolly headed as I think the result was, I wouldn’t have supported just disregarding the vote. I would have supported a second vote if there was good evidence that public opinion had changed. It sounds like we are heading towards the SCOTUS making rulings that neither the current party in power nor the majority of the population agree with. You only think it’s a good thing because you agree with them on this issue. Do you not understand how dangerous this is? It means that any rights you have can be taken away by the minority.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #125 on: May 10, 2022, 08:31:26 AM »
Why should it really matter at what week the pregnancy is terminated? In each case it is a human life who wants to live.
A clump of cells doesn’t “want” anything and by no sensible definition would you declare it a human life.

That is incorrect. Why is it building itself if it doesn't want to be born and to live?

Collins defines life as "Life is the quality which people, animals, and plants have when they are not dead, and which objects and substances do not have." So you are incorrect there as well. It is not an object or a substance, it is a living organism.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
The question for you is why do you think laws should be made which the majority of people do not support? Why should the minority dictate to the majority? Is it simply because on this occasion you agree with those laws? That isn’t democracy.

It is democracy. The Supreme Court gave it to the states to democratically decide what to do with abortion. The majority in the states will decide what to do with abortion and what is best for them and their culture. Some states will decide to keep it, others will decide to limit it, and others may ban it.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
It sounds like we are heading towards the SCOTUS making rulings that neither the current party in power nor the majority of the population agree with.

The Constitution says that the US states control anything not defined in the Constitution. The SCOTUS determined that the Constitution was not speaking about abortion and that it should rightly go to the states like all other health issues.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
You only think it’s a good thing because you agree with them on this issue. Do you not understand how dangerous this is? It means that any rights you have can be taken away by the minority.

Actually it is the majority in the states who are deciding health issues for its populous. In the US the states are very independent and almost like countries, with the exception of certain powers defined in the Constitution like foreign relations. In fact, the population of the states are comparable to the population of various countries in the EU. In the EU its member states also have different laws regarding abortion.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 09:24:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #126 on: May 10, 2022, 09:31:27 AM »
... the fact that people very overwhelmingly have abortions out of personal irresponsibility

Where is the data to support this fact?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #127 on: May 10, 2022, 09:39:48 AM »
It is not an object or a substance, it is a living organism.
I didn't dispute the living part. I said that it wasn't by any sensible definition a human life. No-one regards a clump of cells as equivalent to human life which you could say "wants" anything. It has no consciousness.

The rest of your post is surprisingly sensible.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #128 on: May 10, 2022, 09:54:38 AM »
ITT Tom ascribes will and intent to a clump of cells. I suppose if that is what you believe, then being pro-life is consistent, but it does require you to ascribe will and intent to a clump of cells.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #129 on: May 10, 2022, 10:53:04 AM »
ITT Tom ascribes will and intent to a clump of cells. I suppose if that is what you believe, then being pro-life is consistent, but it does require you to ascribe will and intent to a clump of cells.
It also requires you to oppose cancer treatment.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #130 on: May 10, 2022, 10:57:56 AM »
But when does it become human? 

Conception.

Why?
What makes it a human?  What criteria do you use to define a human being?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #131 on: May 10, 2022, 10:59:45 AM »
ITT Tom ascribes will and intent to a clump of cells. I suppose if that is what you believe, then being pro-life is consistent, but it does require you to ascribe will and intent to a clump of cells.
It also requires you to oppose cancer treatment.

And bleeding.  All those red and white blood cells... Dying slowly, horribly outside of the body.  And all they want to do is transport oxygen, nutrients, and waste.  Like tiny truck drivers.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #132 on: May 10, 2022, 11:06:40 AM »
ITT Tom ascribes will and intent to a clump of cells. I suppose if that is what you believe, then being pro-life is consistent, but it does require you to ascribe will and intent to a clump of cells.
It also requires you to oppose cancer treatment.
I think Tom et al will make a distinction between human life and non-human life.
My argument is the clump of cells which results from a fertilized human egg is the latter. And no-one really regards that clump of cells as equivalent to a human baby.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #133 on: May 10, 2022, 02:20:42 PM »
Actually it is the majority in the states who are deciding health issues for its populous.
You know just like everyone else that the rural minority has a louder voice than the cities. That's true for every damn state in this country and Republicans push hard to keep that rural vote.  78% of Texans think abortion should be allowed in some form which doesn't reflect what's happening there. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/04/texas-abortion-ut-poll/

The rest of your post is surprisingly sensible.
No it's not, he's a troll who says lies and nonsense taking advantage of the fact that you don't know much about this country.

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #134 on: May 10, 2022, 02:26:38 PM »
But when does it become human? 

Conception.


Why do you think this is the most reasonable point at which it becomes a human life?

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #135 on: May 10, 2022, 03:39:57 PM »
This thread was a particularly fun read for what pregnancy can do to your body that you don't often hear about.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2022, 04:20:31 PM »
It is not an object or a substance, it is a living organism.
I didn't dispute the living part. I said that it wasn't by any sensible definition a human life. No-one regards a clump of cells as equivalent to human life which you could say "wants" anything. It has no consciousness.

The rest of your post is surprisingly sensible.

A ten day old baby is hardly conscious and can hardly form thoughts of its own. It's pretty helpless and can barely function. But killing a ten day old baby is still murder. The ten day old baby would have obviously grown up into a one year old baby and eventually a child and eventually a teenager and then into a young adult if you only refrained from murdering it at a young age.

Extinguishing human life is murder. Killing a ten day old baby is obviously as murderous killing an adult. It is perhaps even crueler since you are denying the baby a childhood, not just its adulthood.

Likewise, if you find a nest of turtle eggs in the wild and choose to stomp the developing eggs into oblivion, you have clearly just murdered a nest of turtles. In many cases there are stiff repercussions for killing turtle eggs:

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2015/7/14/stiff_penalty_for_di - "Under state law, destroying a sea turtle nest or eggs is a third-degree felony, punishable by up to a $5,000 fine and/or five years in prison."

Developing sea turtles are given more protections than developing humans.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 05:06:26 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2022, 04:30:12 PM »
A ten day old baby is hardly conscious
Bullshit.
What a stupid comparison.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2022, 04:30:56 PM »
This thread was a particularly fun read for what pregnancy can do to your body that you don't often hear about.
Are there unofficial Jews?

EDIT: My niece almost died giving birth, while we are here. She was pretty much bleeding out. They manage to stabilise her, thankfully. She has had a second child and the birth was quite traumatic then but because of the first time they knew what to look out for more and it wasn't as bad as the first one. She said to me she's not having more children - she might not have wanted more anyway but she doesn't actually think our body would cope with another pregnancy.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 04:32:49 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2022, 05:12:31 PM »
This thread was a particularly fun read for what pregnancy can do to your body that you don't often hear about.
Are there unofficial Jews?

EDIT: My niece almost died giving birth, while we are here. She was pretty much bleeding out. They manage to stabilise her, thankfully. She has had a second child and the birth was quite traumatic then but because of the first time they knew what to look out for more and it wasn't as bad as the first one. She said to me she's not having more children - she might not have wanted more anyway but she doesn't actually think our body would cope with another pregnancy.

Yeah Mrs. Crutonius says that every time also but then someone brings around their newborn...

The new rule at my house is you can come in but you have to leave your newborn outside lest my wife gets any ideas.