1

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 22, 2025, 07:59:34 AM »

ITT: RE adherents learn that mistakes are committed on a regular basis. RE adherents claim they should not happen.

This is literally nothing to do with RE.
Yes, mistakes happen. But evaluate them honestly and consistently, I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.
The issue with the MAGA lot is their reaction to events and evaluation of them is not based on what happened but who did it.
That is not an honest or consistent way of evaluating things.

That goes without saying.

Trump and Biden did nearly the exact same thing: had classified documents at home.
MAGA says Trump had a right to have em.
MAGA then says Biden should be thrown in jail for it.

Double standards.

2

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 20, 2025, 06:44:47 PM »

It could be that we’re all wrong about why Qatar wants to “gift” the luxury 747 to Trump.  It seems that they’re just trying to get rid of the damned thing.

While many have speculated that the Qataris have offered Trump the luxurious plane to curry favor with the famously transactional president, there may be a simpler rationale: they just don’t want it anymore.

The royals have failed to sell the plane, which was put on the market in 2020, according to an archived listing. Giving it away could save Qatar’s rulers a big chunk of change on maintenance and storage costs, aviation experts told Forbes. Making Trump happy would be an added bonus.

So... A white elefant gift?

A gift horse with bad teeth?

No.  A white elefant is a gift you give someone you dislike but don't want to seem like you do.  A white elefant is delicate and requires alot of money to keep alive.  It's a very expensive pet.  And it's bad form to get rid of gifts so... You get a white elefant, you're gonna be paying for it.

3

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 20, 2025, 05:00:47 PM »

It could be that we’re all wrong about why Qatar wants to “gift” the luxury 747 to Trump.  It seems that they’re just trying to get rid of the damned thing.

While many have speculated that the Qataris have offered Trump the luxurious plane to curry favor with the famously transactional president, there may be a simpler rationale: they just don’t want it anymore.

The royals have failed to sell the plane, which was put on the market in 2020, according to an archived listing. Giving it away could save Qatar’s rulers a big chunk of change on maintenance and storage costs, aviation experts told Forbes. Making Trump happy would be an added bonus.

So... A white elefant gift?

4

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 17, 2025, 01:10:01 PM »

I just see a bung of random clips without context. "If I said that, that's quid pro quo", said what? Quid pro quo requires a pro quo. I don't see that Trump has offered anything in return.

I also don't see that there is a history of presidents rejecting gifts. The gifts given to presidents go to the National Archives, which is where the plane is going. So I am not sure what you guys are whining about, exactly.

That's from the june 28 debate.


"Joe could be a convicted felon with all of the things that he’s done. He’s done horrible things. All of the death caused at the border, telling the Ukrainian people that, we’re going to want a billion dollars or you change the prosecutor. Otherwise, you’re not getting a billion dollars. If I ever said that, that’s quid pro quo. That – we’re not going to do anything. We’re not going to give you a billion dollars unless you change your prosecutor having to do with his son. This man is a criminal."


Also, Obama is well known for having rejected gifts.

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/01/politics/barack-obama-michelle-obama-gifts

But Obama, like any other federal employee, is legally barred from accepting any of it outright.

This was in 2015. 

5

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 17, 2025, 04:18:08 AM »

Lets ask 2016 Trump what he thinks if 2025 Trump.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 16, 2025, 08:07:18 AM »

Should also be noted how many foreign nations paid for rooms in Trump hotels, even if they didn't use them, just to make Trump more agreeable in negotiations and talks.

The corruption was so blatent that Republicans had to stop the case from being brought to SCOTUS by essentially delaying it until it became moot and SCOTUS had the lower courts dismiss the case for having no standing or relevance anymore.

7

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 16, 2025, 07:55:30 AM »

If Trump is using his status as POTUS to further his personal financial interests, then that is absolutely a conflict of interest because he is supposed to be putting the interests of America before his own.

That's not the issue in conflict of interest. Conflict of interest issues deal with workplace ethics and responsibilities. It doesn't matter if a bank is giving bigger loans to CEOs. It doesn't matter if celebrities are using their celebrity to get last minute tables at high profile restaurants. The issue arises when that CEO or celebrity utilizes their workplace to give favor to that entity. As long as they are not doing that then they are free to receive benefits and make as much money as they want, and so is Trump.

Trump is in a position to return favors, you are not.   That’s why he’s getting lavish gifts from shady governments and big corporations while you get screwed by footing the bill to upgrade then decommission an Air Force One that probably will never be used as Air Force One.   Pray tell, why decommission it when it would make far more sense for it to serve future presidents?   Trump is trying to cut wasteful spending, isn’t he?  Maybe DOGE should take a look at this deal.

Your argument assumes that every gift received by Trump as president comes with an expectation of future favors, but this view oversimplifies the dynamics of gift-giving in diplomacy and politics. Gifts from foreign governments or corporations are often ceremonial, a norm in international relations, with a long history. If there is evidence that a gift directly influenced policy decisions to benefit a specific entity or government, then that would indeed warrant scrutiny. However, the mere receipt of gifts does not automatically imply corruption or a quid pro quo arrangement.

And how would you know if it did or did not?  Are you privy to every conversation and thought Trump has?

8

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 15, 2025, 07:19:12 AM »

Trump is not going to be storing the plane in a nonexistent structure when he leaves office. He is going to be keeping it, and the cowards whose job it is to hold him to account will once again just mumble about how much they disapprove.

Really? Why would he keep it when it can be a main feature of a major tourist destination dedicated to the Trump Presidency and further immortalize him? The museum would be a grander use for it. It is being given to the federally administered Trump library after his term because it will become a part of the Trump library. It's not too hard to understand.

Again, there is no tourist destination. There is no museum. There is no physical library. There's just a website. It's up to each former president to pay for the design and construction of their presidential center, and while I'm sure that Trump's ego would enjoy having a hagiographic monument to his greatness, he clearly doesn't want to pay for it. If he did, he would have begun four years ago, when he first left office - he had no way of knowing that he'd be elected again four years later, and even if he did, that was no reason to put the whole thing off, especially for a man of Trump's age. If I were to make a reasonable guess as to why he's reluctant to build a presidential center, I'd say that it's because he wouldn't be able to afford it without a dramatic change of lifestyle. Remember that Trump lives very extravagantly, his brand took a major hit when he began running and burned so many bridges, he lost the privilege of ushering foreign and government business his way when he left office - and this was all even as he continued to aggressively solicit donations from his supporters and find other ways to take their money with every passing day, so it's not like he could count on a fresh surge of income from them. Trump is rich, but that doesn't mean that he's made of money.

My musings on Trump's finances aside, the fact remains that there is no real physical presidential center and no plans to build one. There is nowhere "official" to store the plane. So Trump will simply keep it, say something like "I'll hang onto it until the presidential center is built!" and every Trump supporter will continue to parrot this for the rest of his life as Trump continues to jet around in his luxurious airborne throne and every donation meant for the presidential center will be immediately blown on Trump's usual schmoozing.

If , what Tom claims, does happen where the plane will be given to the federal library system... They can just give it back to the next president and put it into Trump's library if he ever builds one.

9

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 14, 2025, 12:13:41 PM »

A landmark... where?  Because last I checked, Trump hasn't even made any comments on WHERE his presidential library will be, let alone began to build one.

There is a bill to allow it to be built in Florida.

No, that's a bill to allow him to build one without having to follow state or local laws.  It says nothing about actually doing it.

So essentially... It's a concept of a plan.  He can't even be bothered to follow local building laws.  And even if it passes, no obligation to build it there.

With this plane as a library feature exhibit it is going to help bring in millions of dollars in tourist revenue, not to mention notoriety. Ronald Regan's library makes 15M a year, and Trump's library will top this easily.

Not sure that's accurate.  in 2020, they were losing $150,000 per week in revenue due to covid.
Which equates to $7.8 Million a year.  Half of what you stated.

From Google AI:

>>ronald reagan museum yearly revenue

"The Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and Museum generated approximately $33.3 million in total revenue for the year ending September 30, 2023, according to the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation & Institute."

They are making plenty of money.

Yeah... You should read the PDF.  They have 36 million in expenses.  So their net profit is -3 million.

So Trump can use one of these aging planes and not have one be built, which is scheduled to be completed in 2027?

He doesn't need to do that because one was given to his presidency as a gift, which will go on and serve as  a US landmark and help bring in millions to US revenues. It was given to Trump, not any other president. Your proposal appears to be for him to reject it, and thus deny us money.

1. He ordered a new plane in 2018.  Now you're saying he didn't have to?
2. So millions in revenue per year while the next president has to spend hundreds of millions on another plane. 

3. The Regan Library had a profit of -3 million a year.  Trump is more hated than Regan.  He won't get nearly as many visitors or donations.  So... How would it make money?  Show me the math.

It's only a quid pro quo if there is a pro quo. For example, if you sent me a link to redeem a $1000 Amazon gift card to my DM as a gift I would happily keep it and assume that you truly just wanted to give me a generous gift. I would give you nothing in return except for a message of thanks.

And you know they didn't ask for something... How? 

10

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 13, 2025, 07:53:57 PM »

Trump wants to use it for 4.  A brand new plane.  Used for 4 years.  Does that make sense to you?

It absolutely makes sense. It's a free plane to the American taxpayer and is going to be used for decades as a United States landmark.

A landmark... where?  Because last I checked, Trump hasn't even made any comments on WHERE his presidential library will be, let alone began to build one.

With this plane as a library feature exhibit it is going to help bring in millions of dollars in tourist revenue, not to mention notoriety. Ronald Regan's library makes 15M a year, and Trump's library will top this easily.

Not sure that's accurate.  in 2020, they were losing $150,000 per week in revenue due to covid.
Which equates to $7.8 Million a year.  Half of what you stated.

There are plenty of other aging planes in the federal collection that future presidents can use as Air Force One. The plane Trump is being given is also not "brand new" and is 13 years old.

So Trump can use one of these aging planes and not have one be built, which is scheduled to be completed in 2027?  (ps. Trump is the one who orderd the thing.)

Also... this contract that's already been awarded... I can't seem to find it.  Curiouser and Curiouser....

11

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 13, 2025, 06:22:31 PM »

Yep, I called it. In a press conference about this Trump even mentions the plane exhibit in Ronald Regan's library as a model for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTnDlrNPzgc

@3:21
it's something that was done by Ronald Reagan
they actually decommissioned the plane
and he put it in his library and it
actually has made the library I think a
Boeing 707 uh it's actually made the
library uh more successful so it was
good

do you plan to use the plane after you leave office?

no I don't no it would it would go
directly to the library after after I
leave office

Considering that the US Taxpayers are not even paying for this plane…

If Trump ever plans on using it as Air Force One, then the US Taxpayers will most certainly be on the hook for upgrading it to Air Force One standards, and that won’t be cheap.

Yes, and they are going to take the stuff they install back afterwards.

Clinton and Bush were after Regan. 

https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/permanent-exhibits/air-force-one-pavilion#:~:text=Opening%20in%202005%2C%20the%20Air,U.S.%20presidents%20from%201973%2D2001.

So basically, the Regan plane (and Clinton and Bush) was used for 28 years.
Trump wants to use it for 4.  A brand new plane.  Used for 4 years.  Does that make sense to you?


Also, you can not just "take it out". These are major upgrades and changes to the entire structure of the plane.  You can take out some equipment but most of the cost is not removable.

And again: 4 years.  Well... Less actually since it takes a while to build it to spec.
So 3 years.  A brand new plane in use for 3 years.  Then the next president has to buy another one.

How is that saving money or efficient?  If Trump wants it in his library, we can put it there once it's beyond it's use and due for retirement.

12

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 13, 2025, 04:30:58 PM »

The luxury plane, which would be one of the most valuable gifts ever received by the U.S. government, would eventually be donated to Trump's presidential library after he leaves office, the source said.

Like I've said before, there is no Trump presidential library. This plane is a gift to Donald Trump himself, not to the office of the president or the federal government.

This is wrong. There is a Trump Presidential Library and it's part of the federal government. The plane is going back to the federal government.

https://www.trumplibrary.gov - "The Trump Presidential Library is part of the Presidential Libraries system administered by the National Archives and Records Administration, a federal agency."

The federal government will be deciding what to do with the plane after Trump leaves office.

So basically....

"I will gift my plane not to the next president but to...my library.  So the librarian can fly it or something."

>_>

13

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 13, 2025, 04:29:51 PM »

Oh he won't care about that.  What he should care about …

Come now, we all know that he doesn’t care about a great number of things that he should care about.  You know, things like not crashing the world economy or defending the constitution.

Not dying is something Trump cares alot about.

14

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 13, 2025, 05:17:21 AM »

Given how long it takes to upgrade a 747 to Air Force One standards, I seriously doubt that it will ever be legitimately used as Air Force One.  They might just as well hand it over to the Trump library off the bat.

It's far more likely that they won't bother upgrading or modifying it at all, and Trump will just use it as-is. Who's going to stop him?

He’ll have to wait for the upgrades if he wants to communicate on a platform more secure than Signal.

Oh he won't care about that.  What he should care about is all the stuff that keeps him from being shot out of the sky.  Or surviving a crash if it happens.  Or medical services onboard.  Inflight refueling.  You know... Stuff for a long term command center of the president.

15

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 12, 2025, 04:19:12 PM »

Orange Man Good.
Everyone else bad.

16

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 12, 2025, 02:48:38 PM »

As POTUS, Trump gets a $400K salary so that he shouldn’t need to sell pencils. 

Also, is it really okay for him to accept a luxury 747 from Qtar?
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/trump-set-accept-luxury-747-qatar-use-air-force-one-abc-news-says-2025-05-11/

I mean... The spy devices they probably put on it won't even be needed so it's fine

17

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 12, 2025, 09:35:18 AM »

There is barely anything special about it. It's a currency as much as a pencil is a currency. Trump may as well be selling pencils with individualized serial numbers that people are willing to buy from him and then sell to each other for prices that they decide among themselves.

Should politicians be allowed to sell pencils? Yes. The genius comes in convincing people that they should sell the pencils to each other, which gives the pencil potentially more value. Outside of the initial sale of the pencil it has nothing to do with Trump.

Does there need to be laws in selling pencils with serial numbers on them? No. Why would there be? There are many politicians who are business owners and sell products, and many more who are heavily invested in businesses, all potentially corruptible for political influence. This meme coin is just an asset with a serial number on it, which its owners go on to trade among themselves.

Okay!
So, so politicians should be allowed to sell pencils.  And then you'd naturally agree that if the politicians then made pencils very expensive or difficult to get EXCEPT their pencils, that would be fine to you, right?

18

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 12, 2025, 06:13:17 AM »

You actually don't even have an example that politicians should not receive money from their supporters. Many politicians ask for and receive money from their supporters. There is massive fundraising from Super PACS,  which raise hundreds of millions of dollars for candidates and politicians. Companies write very large checks to these organizations, which are often looked at with suspicion and shade. If your argument is that politicians should not receive money from their supporters, this is blatantly contradicted by a century of fundraising.

In Obama's last term as President he was notably raising money from people to "support his goals".

Trump is ingeniously giving something in return to his supporters through Trump meme coins which could potentially have value based on the success of the very person they are investing in. Usually when you give money to a politician you get nothing in return, so he has improved the process with his innovative business acumen and has made it far more attractive for people to consider investing in him.

So Trump's meme coin is now an official currency for political donations and subject to the same laws there of?

Or is it a private investment meant to be used by private citizen Trump?

19

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 11, 2025, 07:55:56 PM »

If a president wants to lie repeatedly, use his position of power to further enrich himself and his mates, make decisions which push the country in to the brink of recession, take no responsibility for anything and blame everyone but himself for his failings and just generally act like a complete asshat on the world stage and make himself and by association your country a complete laughing stock then you're right, there's no requirements to stop him doing any of that.

And yes, because of the MAGA Cult he gets away with it.
Where we differ is I don't actually think it's a good thing. I'd rather have a world leader with honestly, integrity and competence.
I'm a bit of an old traditionalist when it comes to stuff like that.

Trump does not have control over whether he is successful in his meme coin business.

He does if he's saying "Buy my coin and meet me!  Influence me!" Which anyone from high ranking rich poeple to maga folk, to literal assassins will buy as much as possible.  If that's not influencing, you're clearly just a hypocrit.

20

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: May 10, 2025, 05:48:31 AM »

Selling Trump merch is one thing.  Using meme coins to sell direct access to the president is a whole new level of corruption.
https://news.sky.com/story/us-senators-attempt-to-ban-trumps-profoundly-corrupt-crypto-schemes-13363230

You actually don't need to own a meme coin business to accept money from people. Trump and his family were making multi-million dollar deals as he was President during his first term, and I am still waiting for you guys to prove that bribery occurred as has been alleged.

Be honest: would it even matter if we did?  Would you suddenly go "Oh, Trump is corrupt.  I should stop supporting him!"
I'm 90% sure it would not.  You would simply dismiss the evidence, twist it to be a positive, or just ignore the entire situation.