devils advocate

Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« on: September 20, 2017, 10:49:53 AM »
I have read the Wiki and FAQ; (UA asserts that the Earth is accelerating 'upward' at a constant rate of 9.8m/s^2)

But am struggling to find either a reason why or proof that the earth IS accelerating at 9.8 metres per second:

Wiki states: "The are several explanations for UA. As it is difficult for proponents of Flat Earth Theory to obtain grant money for scientific research, it is nigh on impossible to determine which of these theories is correct."

I was hoping that a FE could explain why this theory exists without this reasoning and evidence? Why does it make sense to you and how did this exact speed come about? As for the several explanations for UA; what are they please as I could not see them listed anywhere?

many thanks

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 04:00:05 AM »
I have read the Wiki and FAQ; (UA asserts that the Earth is accelerating 'upward' at a constant rate of 9.8m/s^2)

But am struggling to find either a reason why or proof that the earth IS accelerating at 9.8 metres per second:

Wiki states: "The are several explanations for UA. As it is difficult for proponents of Flat Earth Theory to obtain grant money for scientific research, it is nigh on impossible to determine which of these theories is correct."

I was hoping that a FE could explain why this theory exists without this reasoning and evidence? Why does it make sense to you and how did this exact speed come about? As for the several explanations for UA; what are they please as I could not see them listed anywhere?

many thanks

I confess I'm a bit puzzled as to why FE'ers do this.

If the Earth is an infinite disk, of decent thickness - then regular "per Isaac Newton" gravity is a reasonable explanation.


Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

devils advocate

Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 07:23:48 AM »
Indeed. Does this also mean that when an aeroplane is flying apparently at a stable 30,000 feet it is in actual fact in ascent as surely if it was travelling on a level plain it would be hit by the upwards earth?

This particular idea needs a lot more work FE.

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 09:31:54 AM »
... as surely if it was travelling on a level plain it would be hit by the upwards earth?

No, that is not how it works at all...

devils advocate

Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2017, 10:28:47 AM »
... as surely if it was travelling on a level plain it would be hit by the upwards earth?

No, that is not how it works at all...

I gathered Junker..........I will have to wait to see if any alternative explanations are offered in this thread as the Wiki or FAQ does not explain enough.

Tom's empirical POV states that if someone jumps out of the plane they do not fall down to earth, instead the earth rushes up to meet them..........hmmmmmmmmmmm

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2017, 01:00:50 PM »
I gathered Junker..........I will have to wait to see if any alternative explanations are offered in this thread as the Wiki or FAQ does not explain enough.

It is no different than RE in this regard (in terms of the concepts involved). The Universal Acceleration model has everything in earth's non-inertial frame of reference accelerating at the same rate. Due to the Equivalence Principle, this is literally no different than "gravity."

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 01:01:38 PM »
Indeed. Does this also mean that when an aeroplane is flying apparently at a stable 30,000 feet it is in actual fact in ascent as surely if it was travelling on a level plain it would be hit by the upwards earth?
[...]
I gathered Junker..........I will have to wait to see if any alternative explanations are offered in this thread as the Wiki or FAQ does not explain enough.
This is explained both in our Wiki and on Wikipedia. In short: generating enough lift to avoid a flat plane accelerating at 9.8%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D is equivalent and indistinguishable from generating enough lift to prevent an aeroplane from crashing down due to the 9.8%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D acceleration caused by RET's gravitation.

If the Earth is an infinite disk, of decent thickness - then regular "per Isaac Newton" gravity is a reasonable explanation.
Indeed, and many infinite plane FE'ers have advocated for that as the answer.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 01:05:01 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

devils advocate

Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 01:51:07 PM »
Indeed. Does this also mean that when an aeroplane is flying apparently at a stable 30,000 feet it is in actual fact in ascent as surely if it was travelling on a level plain it would be hit by the upwards earth?
[...]
I gathered Junker..........I will have to wait to see if any alternative explanations are offered in this thread as the Wiki or FAQ does not explain enough.
This is explained both in our Wiki and on Wikipedia. In short: generating enough lift to avoid a flat plane accelerating at 9.8%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D is equivalent and indistinguishable from generating enough lift to prevent an aeroplane from crashing down due to the 9.8%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D acceleration caused by RET's gravitation.

Thanks for responding, I don't follow that they are the same. On RE the ground remains at the same level whilst the plane flies above it, generating thrust to avoid the pull of gravity. On FE the plane is still in the air but crucially the ground is NOT static, it is rushing up towards the plane.

A trampoline jump: RE- a certain force is applied by the jumper to raise themselves 10 feet above the trampoline, then they fall down 10 feet back to trampoline

FE - The trampoline moves upwards following the jumper on their ascent so:
 a) They will not fall 10 Feet down as the trampoline is no longer 10 feet below.
 b) To reach 10 Feet above the trampoline requires more force as the jumper has to travel further up to create the 10 foot distance

My understanding is therefore that with a static ground the plane can fly horizontally but if the earth was rushing up towards it it would need to be ascending to maintain it's height above it

Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 02:09:59 PM »
Indeed. Does this also mean that when an aeroplane is flying apparently at a stable 30,000 feet it is in actual fact in ascent as surely if it was travelling on a level plain it would be hit by the upwards earth?
[...]
I gathered Junker..........I will have to wait to see if any alternative explanations are offered in this thread as the Wiki or FAQ does not explain enough.
This is explained both in our Wiki and on Wikipedia. In short: generating enough lift to avoid a flat plane accelerating at 9.8%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D is equivalent and indistinguishable from generating enough lift to prevent an aeroplane from crashing down due to the 9.8%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D acceleration caused by RET's gravitation.

Thanks for responding, I don't follow that they are the same. On RE the ground remains at the same level whilst the plane flies above it, generating thrust to avoid the pull of gravity. On FE the plane is still in the air but crucially the ground is NOT static, it is rushing up towards the plane.

A trampoline jump: RE- a certain force is applied by the jumper to raise themselves 10 feet above the trampoline, then they fall down 10 feet back to trampoline

FE - The trampoline moves upwards following the jumper on their ascent so:
 a) They will not fall 10 Feet down as the trampoline is no longer 10 feet below.
 b) To reach 10 Feet above the trampoline requires more force as the jumper has to travel further up to create the 10 foot distance

My understanding is therefore that with a static ground the plane can fly horizontally but if the earth was rushing up towards it it would need to be ascending to maintain it's height above it
While I agree it's a little weird to really think about, always remember that (roughly) "Acceleration is/can be indistinguishable from a gravitational field" according to part of Relativity. It doesn't help a ton in trying to think about it imo, but it is there. Remember, you and the trampoline we're both going at that acceleration before you jumped. The trampoline added to it (thus resulting in going up) and since you no longer had a force being applied to you, your acceleration decayed until you 'fell' back down onto the trampoline (or the ground) once again and were instantly and forcibly restored to the speed of acceleration of the Earth.

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 03:21:28 PM »
Thanks for responding, I don't follow that they are the same.
...
My understanding is therefore that with a static ground the plane can fly horizontally but if the earth was rushing up towards it it would need to be ascending to maintain it's height above it

HINT: When both the FE'ers *AND* the RE'ers tell you that you're wrong (and that's what's precisely what's happening here!) you should probably stop talking and go look it up someplace.

Aside from some subtle problems relating to the variability of gravity and things like tidal effects - universal acceleration does "work".  (Although - I still have no clue why the FE'ers bother with it).

If UA was how the world ACTUALLY worked - your daily experience of life (jumping, trampolines, airplanes, balloons, etc) would seem almost exactly the same as it does with gravity and a round planet.

There are differences which disprove UA...but they are FAR too subtle to see without delicate equipment and a lot of Airline Miles to burn!

Sorry you can't grasp it...but don't feel bad about it.   It took Albert Einstein's brain to figure it out for us.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

devils advocate

Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 08:46:12 PM »
Haha thanks for explaining CS and 3D, from what I've read of you two over my FES experience so far I trust that your knowledge of physics beats mine so I'll back down on this one. Thanks for taking the time to explain :-)

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 05:17:32 PM »
Haha thanks for explaining CS and 3D, from what I've read of you two over my FES experience so far I trust that your knowledge of physics beats mine so I'll back down on this one. Thanks for taking the time to explain :-)

There is one distinction you might want to think about though.  Acceleration requires energy to make it happen.  Gravitation does not.   What exactly powers the Earth through this crazy amount of acceleration?

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 06:27:51 PM »
Haha thanks for explaining CS and 3D, from what I've read of you two over my FES experience so far I trust that your knowledge of physics beats mine so I'll back down on this one. Thanks for taking the time to explain :-)
Acceleration requires energy to make it happen.  Gravitation does not.

What does gravitation require to make it happen, then?

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 09:53:35 PM »

What does gravitation require to make it happen, then?
Mass

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 09:57:55 PM »
Acceleration requires energy to make it happen.  Gravitation does not.

What does gravitation require to make it happen, then?

It is a VERY common misapprehension that a FORCE requires ENERGY.   It does not.  When you attach a magnet to your refrigerator, it stays stuck there forever without "running down" because it's not consuming any energy to be there.   When a book sits on a table, the gravitational pull of the book on the Earth doesn't run down - and the equal-and-opposite force of the table pushing up on the book doesn't require energy either.   The book sits on the table without either consuming energy.

Gravity is like magnetism in that regard - both produce a force without energy expenditure.

HOWEVER:  "Work" is "Force-through-a-distance" - and "Work" is "Energy".   So as soon as something moves - energy is required to make it happen.   So if the Earth is physically moving as it accelerates upwards - then for as long as it accelerates, some energy is being expended somewhere.

With gravity - if you LIFT a book to some height, then you're providing energy with your muscles to move the book.  The book retains that energy as "gravitational potential energy" - and if you drop it, that energy will turn into kinetic energy as the book accelerates towards the ground - and then into heat and sound energy as it impacts.

But your Flat Earth is being accelerated continually - accumulating more and more kinetic energy - which DOES require some input of energy from someplace.

Now - you might argue for magic - or some "unobtainium" that carries limitless energy within it...but you DO need some kind of an explanation for where this energy has been coming from for the last god-knows billions of years.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at 9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 11:03:08 PM »
Thanks for responding, I don't follow that they are the same. On RE the ground remains at the same level whilst the plane flies above it, generating thrust to avoid the pull of gravity. On FE the plane is still in the air but crucially the ground is NOT static, it is rushing up towards the plane.

A trampoline jump: RE- a certain force is applied by the jumper to raise themselves 10 feet above the trampoline, then they fall down 10 feet back to trampoline

FE - The trampoline moves upwards following the jumper on their ascent so:
 a) They will not fall 10 Feet down as the trampoline is no longer 10 feet below.
 b) To reach 10 Feet above the trampoline requires more force as the jumper has to travel further up to create the 10 foot distance

My understanding is therefore that with a static ground the plane can fly horizontally but if the earth was rushing up towards it it would need to be ascending to maintain it's height above it
devil's advocate, I'll try to explain how this works as I see it...
  • The airplane.  Remember that all the air on the surface of the Earth is also moving upward with the airplane.  The acceleration of the flat Earth is pushing the air upward so it has the same effect that gravity does on a round Earth with gravity.  The air is denser close to the surface and thinner further away, and importantly - it is all moving together. The airplane isn't flying off the Earth at any particular distance, it if flying in the air.  If all the air surrounding the airplane is moving upward with the accelerating Earth then it will indeed create the same effect that gravity does.  The airplane does not need to fly upward away from the Earth to say up.  It just needs to fly through the air that is being pushed along.
  • The trampoline. For this one you have to remember the difference between velocity and acceleration.  Velocity is the speed an object is currently moving (and will continue to move unless acted upon).  Acceleration is a change in velocity.  It requires a force to cause the change. As the person on the gravity trampoline jumps up he needs F amount of force to push away from gravity to generate V velocity.  The gravity field has been pulling him back the whole time at 9.8m/s until V=0 and then he falls back down.  V=0 just mean that he is not moving relative to the surface of the Earth.  On the acceleration trampoline he jumps with the same force F to produce V velocity, but remember that he is already moving with the Earth so he get V + V(earth).  This gives him the speed needed to reach the same 10 feet above the trampoline.  In this case V=0 is when he is moving the same speed as the Earth.  As soon as his feet lifted off the trampoline at V + V(earth) he stopped accelerating, but the Earth continued to accelerate at 9.8m/s until it also reached V + V(earth) at which point he was 10 feet in the air and his new V=0.  The Earth then continues to accelerate at 9.8m/s and rushes toward him in exactly the same way gravity would have done it.  From his perspective, the two forces look and feel exactly the same.

Hope this makes sense and is helpful.
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2017, 11:12:28 PM »
I have read the Wiki and FAQ; (UA asserts that the Earth is accelerating 'upward' at a constant rate of 9.8m/s^2)

But am struggling to find either a reason why or proof that the earth IS accelerating at 9.8 metres per second:

Wiki states: "The are several explanations for UA. As it is difficult for proponents of Flat Earth Theory to obtain grant money for scientific research, it is nigh on impossible to determine which of these theories is correct."

I was hoping that a FE could explain why this theory exists without this reasoning and evidence? Why does it make sense to you and how did this exact speed come about? As for the several explanations for UA; what are they please as I could not see t
many thanks

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Offline juner

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2017, 12:56:40 AM »
What does gravitation require to make it happen, then?
Mass
Hmm, I do believe there was a guy who thought there was some equivalence between energy and mass. Interesting.


Acceleration requires energy to make it happen.  Gravitation does not.

What does gravitation require to make it happen, then?

It is a VERY common misapprehension that a FORCE requires ENERGY.   It does not.  When you attach a magnet to your refrigerator, it stays stuck there forever without "running down" because it's not consuming any energy to be there.   When a book sits on a table, the gravitational pull of the book on the Earth doesn't run down - and the equal-and-opposite force of the table pushing up on the book doesn't require energy either.   The book sits on the table without either consuming energy.

Gravity is like magnetism in that regard - both produce a force without energy expenditure.

HOWEVER:  "Work" is "Force-through-a-distance" - and "Work" is "Energy".   So as soon as something moves - energy is required to make it happen.   So if the Earth is physically moving as it accelerates upwards - then for as long as it accelerates, some energy is being expended somewhere.

With gravity - if you LIFT a book to some height, then you're providing energy with your muscles to move the book.  The book retains that energy as "gravitational potential energy" - and if you drop it, that energy will turn into kinetic energy as the book accelerates towards the ground - and then into heat and sound energy as it impacts.

But your Flat Earth is being accelerated continually - accumulating more and more kinetic energy - which DOES require some input of energy from someplace.

Now - you might argue for magic - or some "unobtainium" that carries limitless energy within it...but you DO need some kind of an explanation for where this energy has been coming from for the last god-knows billions of years.

You didn't answer the question. You claim gravitation does not require energy to make it happen. So, what makes gravitation happen?

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2017, 01:10:10 AM »
What does gravitation require to make it happen, then?
Mass
Hmm, I do believe there was a guy who thought there was some equivalence between energy and mass. Interesting.


Acceleration requires energy to make it happen.  Gravitation does not.

What does gravitation require to make it happen, then?

It is a VERY common misapprehension that a FORCE requires ENERGY.   It does not.  When you attach a magnet to your refrigerator, it stays stuck there forever without "running down" because it's not consuming any energy to be there.   When a book sits on a table, the gravitational pull of the book on the Earth doesn't run down - and the equal-and-opposite force of the table pushing up on the book doesn't require energy either.   The book sits on the table without either consuming energy.

Gravity is like magnetism in that regard - both produce a force without energy expenditure.

HOWEVER:  "Work" is "Force-through-a-distance" - and "Work" is "Energy".   So as soon as something moves - energy is required to make it happen.   So if the Earth is physically moving as it accelerates upwards - then for as long as it accelerates, some energy is being expended somewhere.

With gravity - if you LIFT a book to some height, then you're providing energy with your muscles to move the book.  The book retains that energy as "gravitational potential energy" - and if you drop it, that energy will turn into kinetic energy as the book accelerates towards the ground - and then into heat and sound energy as it impacts.

But your Flat Earth is being accelerated continually - accumulating more and more kinetic energy - which DOES require some input of energy from someplace.

Now - you might argue for magic - or some "unobtainium" that carries limitless energy within it...but you DO need some kind of an explanation for where this energy has been coming from for the last god-knows billions of years.

You didn't answer the question. You claim gravitation does not require energy to make it happen. So, what makes gravitation happen?

Ah - that game my 5 year old granddaughter plays...they ask a question, you answer, they say "Why?" so you explain and they say "Why?" so you explain that and then they say "Why?" again.

Ultimately, we know what mass does - it makes gravity.  And that's because of the curvature of space-time and...well, I guess we ran out of answers for "Why?".

But unless I'm very much mistaken, FET has gravity too...it's the only way you can (half-assedly) explain half of the tides...I suppose that's quarter-assedly.  So we don't have to play this game...FET and RET both have gravity - neither of us can get passed "curving space-time".

But NOWHERE do we get free energy - we even have one of the best established laws of physics that says "No Free Energy!!"
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline Horhang

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Re: Why is the Earth accelerating at9.8 metres per second?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2017, 01:29:07 AM »
If Earth is accelerating up at 9.8 m/s/s that means in 24 hours Earth would have accelerated by:
60s/min x 60 min/hr x 24hr/day x 9.8 m/s/s = 846,720 m/s/s per day.
Which means within 360 days the earth would have accelerated by 846,720 x 360 = 304,819,200 m/s/s.
Which means each year Earth would have accelerated beyond the speed of light. Relativity tells us this is impossible so what is the solution to this dilemma? Alternatively what is the source of energy driving the continued acceleration of Earth?