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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 03:27:58 AM »
Tom, he's not using speed at all. He's using flight time as a distance analogue. So there's no flight speed involved what so ever.

Flight time is not able to get a distance without knowing speed.

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 05:12:04 AM »
Average cruising speed is just an average. The plane isn't a locomotive. Its speed changes while in flight by large amounts. The plane is flying within mediums which move within mediums.

Average cruising speed is based on groundspeed, meaning that the system is using external reference based on ground coordinates in some manner. If those reference points are broadcasting Round Earth coordinates, then that speed was created using the Round Earth coordinate system.

This is all very unhelpful in attempting to map out a world which is not round.

Tom: You really know very little about how modern airplanes work - you might want to stop talking authoritatively about things you clearly don't understand.

*ALL* modern airliners fly on autopilot for 99% of the time.  They MIGHT come off autopilot for a few minutes on takeoff and landing, in emergency situations, that kind of thing...but most of the time the autopilot flies the plane on all long distance routes.

The autopilot controls the speed to very high precision - so you're really talking nonsense here - just as you did when you claimed that newly designed airplane speeds are measured by test pilots rather than being designed into the airplane at the outset.

We have a couple of people here who are airline pilots - and at least one person who's an expert on flight simulation (which is all about this stuff).

Airliners fly at VERY constant speeds - and the distinction between air speed and ground speed - while important - is cross-checked in half a dozen ways by the various flight instruments.

What you're saying might have been true 40 years ago (maybe)...but for sure it's not true now.

So - fine, go ahead and talk authoritatively about the Flat Earth if you wish - but every single time you've said *anything* about how airplanes work or how they are operated, you make an idiot of yourself.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 05:21:49 AM »
*ALL* modern airliners fly on autopilot for 99% of the time.  They MIGHT come off autopilot for a few minutes on takeoff and landing, in emergency situations, that kind of thing...but most of the time the autopilot flies the plane on all long distance routes.

The autopilot controls the speed to very high precision - so you're really talking nonsense here - just as you did when you claimed that newly designed airplane speeds are measured by test pilots rather than being designed into the airplane at the outset.

The autopilot controls the speed as it relates to groundspeed. Groundspeed relies on a Round Earth coordinate system. All groundspeed methodologies use a Round Earth coordinate system for ground references.

Quote
We have a couple of people here who are airline pilots - and at least one person who's an expert on flight simulation (which is all about this stuff).

Airliners fly at VERY constant speeds - and the distinction between air speed and ground speed - while important - is cross-checked in half a dozen ways by the various flight instruments.

It is not possible to accurately get speed without some kind of external reference like the ground. Any instrument which attempts to measure speed by measuring the amount of air passing by the craft is unreliable. There is no such thing as a reliable odometer for an airplane.

Quote
What you're saying might have been true 40 years ago (maybe)...but for sure it's not true now.

So - fine, go ahead and talk authoritatively about the Flat Earth if you wish - but every single time you've said *anything* about how airplanes work or how they are operated, you make an idiot of yourself.

You have provided zero rebuttal, other than "you are wrong".

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 05:39:33 AM »
*ALL* modern airliners fly on autopilot for 99% of the time.  They MIGHT come off autopilot for a few minutes on takeoff and landing, in emergency situations, that kind of thing...but most of the time the autopilot flies the plane on all long distance routes.

The autopilot controls the speed to very high precision - so you're really talking nonsense here - just as you did when you claimed that newly designed airplane speeds are measured by test pilots rather than being designed into the airplane at the outset.

The autopilot controls the speed as it relates to groundspeed. Groundspeed relies on a Round Earth coordinate system. All groundspeed methodologies use a Round Earth coordinate system for ground references.

You **REALLY** are clueless about modern airplanes aren't you!



Notice that this 747 display shows both ground AND air speed - and position data from at least two different and unrelated sources.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 05:58:35 AM »
*ALL* modern airliners fly on autopilot for 99% of the time.  They MIGHT come off autopilot for a few minutes on takeoff and landing, in emergency situations, that kind of thing...but most of the time the autopilot flies the plane on all long distance routes.

The autopilot controls the speed to very high precision - so you're really talking nonsense here - just as you did when you claimed that newly designed airplane speeds are measured by test pilots rather than being designed into the airplane at the outset.

The autopilot controls the speed as it relates to groundspeed. Groundspeed relies on a Round Earth coordinate system. All groundspeed methodologies use a Round Earth coordinate system for ground references.

You **REALLY** are clueless about modern airplanes aren't you!



Notice that this 747 display shows both ground AND air speed - and position data from at least two different and unrelated sources.

That True Airspeed (TAS)  indicator is used for things like making aircraft banking/stalling maneuvers, not for navigation. We have discussed this in previous threads:

I'll link you again that air speed is NOT measured by how much ground they cover, but by the speed of the plane through the air. As explained here the speed of a plane is measured based on the air it goes through, using standard nautical miles. If you wish to explain how a Flat Earth mile differs from a Round Earth mile, I'm all ears. But I'm not sure such a claim can hold water in any sort of honest debate.

Airspeed is not reliable, as the plane is traveling in fluids which are traveling within fluids. All instruments which measure how fast air is passing by the craft are unreliable. Your website directly states that it is considered rather useless and is not used in navigation.

Read this quote from your link:

Quote
Knowing TAS (True Airspeed) during flight is surprisingly useless - for navigation, ground speed is needed

Groundspeed is computed by measuring with some reference to coordinates based on a Round Earth model.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 06:00:11 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 05:59:51 AM »
*ALL* modern airliners fly on autopilot for 99% of the time.  They MIGHT come off autopilot for a few minutes on takeoff and landing, in emergency situations, that kind of thing...but most of the time the autopilot flies the plane on all long distance routes.

The autopilot controls the speed to very high precision - so you're really talking nonsense here - just as you did when you claimed that newly designed airplane speeds are measured by test pilots rather than being designed into the airplane at the outset.

The autopilot controls the speed as it relates to groundspeed. Groundspeed relies on a Round Earth coordinate system. All groundspeed methodologies use a Round Earth coordinate system for ground references.

Quote
We have a couple of people here who are airline pilots - and at least one person who's an expert on flight simulation (which is all about this stuff).

Airliners fly at VERY constant speeds - and the distinction between air speed and ground speed - while important - is cross-checked in half a dozen ways by the various flight instruments.

It is not possible to accurately get speed without some kind of external reference like the ground. Any instrument which attempts to measure speed by measuring the amount of air passing by the craft is unreliable. There is no such thing as a reliable odometer for an airplane.

Quote
What you're saying might have been true 40 years ago (maybe)...but for sure it's not true now.

So - fine, go ahead and talk authoritatively about the Flat Earth if you wish - but every single time you've said *anything* about how airplanes work or how they are operated, you make an idiot of yourself.

You have provided zero rebuttal, other than "you are wrong".
Where is the issue with measuring distances?  Show how you would devise a system and what coordinate system we should be using.

Have you checked timeanddate.com yet?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 06:03:50 AM by inquisitive »

Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 07:15:38 AM »
Tom, he's not using speed at all. He's using flight time as a distance analogue. So there's no flight speed involved what so ever.

Flight time is not able to get a distance without knowing speed.
How are you not getting this? There is no distance being used or measured. The 'distance' between each city will be the flight time. Something like, 1 minute of flight time is 1 cm on his map/model. By using flight time averages from both directions, this should give a good rough distance analogue. But note, no distance in terms of miles or kilometers is being used.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 08:59:54 AM »
Tom, he's not using speed at all. He's using flight time as a distance analogue. So there's no flight speed involved what so ever.

Flight time is not able to get a distance without knowing speed.
this is a proportion, not an absolute measure. He doesn't need to work out the actual distances.
Because equal flight times roughly equate equal distances, you can compare the former instead of the latter and avoid the problem of RE vs FE assumptions.
The only way* you can really object is by stating that airplanes fly at very different speeds in different parts of the planet. Is that what you are saying?

*EDIT: ok not the *only* way, but the other possible problems, if they really are relevant, will become readily apparent when he actually builds the map.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:59:09 AM by Ga_x2 »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2017, 12:50:42 PM »
Tom, he's not using speed at all. He's using flight time as a distance analogue. So there's no flight speed involved what so ever.

Flight time is not able to get a distance without knowing speed.
How are you not getting this? There is no distance being used or measured. The 'distance' between each city will be the flight time. Something like, 1 minute of flight time is 1 cm on his map/model. By using flight time averages from both directions, this should give a good rough distance analogue. But note, no distance in terms of miles or kilometers is being used.

All planes are not the same, and planes do not travel at a set speed through the duration of their flight.

Tom, he's not using speed at all. He's using flight time as a distance analogue. So there's no flight speed involved what so ever.

Flight time is not able to get a distance without knowing speed.
this is a proportion, not an absolute measure. He doesn't need to work out the actual distances.
Because equal flight times roughly equate equal distances, you can compare the former instead of the latter and avoid the problem of RE vs FE assumptions.
The only way* you can really object is by stating that airplanes fly at very different speeds in different parts of the planet. Is that what you are saying?

*EDIT: ok not the *only* way, but the other possible problems, if they really are relevant, will become readily apparent when he actually builds the map.

See my above response.

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 01:40:00 PM »
All planes are not the same, and planes do not travel at a set speed through the duration of their flight.
Do you actually know this or are you making stuff up? Over long distances there is little variation in aircraft type and cruise speed. And I really don't know how you come up with the idea that planes should change speed by much during flights. Anyway, he's averaging the results to compensate. We'll see how the error bars are when he's finished.
If said error bars aren't horribly high, than the methodology holds.

Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 02:25:16 PM »
Tom,
I'd like to acknowledge your concern that all passenger jet-liners don't fly at the same speed.  This is certainly true.
What are your thoughts on my claim that the differences won't be significant enough to turn a flat earth round or a round earth flat.

Flight speeds differences may make my map a bit distorted, but it would not change the location of entire continents.
If you will acknowledge this claim, I'll feel good about proceeding.
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2017, 03:06:53 PM »
Tom,
I'd like to acknowledge your concern that all passenger jet-liners don't fly at the same speed.  This is certainly true.
What are your thoughts on my claim that the differences won't be significant enough to turn a flat earth round or a round earth flat.

Flight speeds differences may make my map a bit distorted, but it would not change the location of entire continents.
If you will acknowledge this claim, I'll feel good about proceeding.

You don't need to guess.   You should be able to find out what airplane a particular airline flies on that route and look up the cruise speed on Wikipedia or some such.   That's what I did when we worked through this before.

But as predicted, Tom won't agree to the distances you come up with however clever you are at finding them.

He'll keep claiming increasingly ridiculous things in order to try to defend the indefensible.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2017, 05:10:28 PM »
Tom, he's not using speed at all. He's using flight time as a distance analogue. So there's no flight speed involved what so ever.

Flight time is not able to get a distance without knowing speed.
How are you not getting this? There is no distance being used or measured. The 'distance' between each city will be the flight time. Something like, 1 minute of flight time is 1 cm on his map/model. By using flight time averages from both directions, this should give a good rough distance analogue. But note, no distance in terms of miles or kilometers is being used.

All planes are not the same, and planes do not travel at a set speed through the duration of their flight.
Irrelevant when taking an average, and incorrect when speaking about the vast majority of an intercontinental flight.

Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2017, 10:46:36 PM »
All planes are not the same, and planes do not travel at a set speed through the duration of their flight.
Irrelevant when taking an average, and incorrect when speaking about the vast majority of an intercontinental flight.

Tom,  can we come to agreement that you are correct that all planes, do not travel at the same speed, but that this fact will be irrelevant to my project of making a rough map of the world?  Do you agree that we can expect distortions because of the non-uniform air speeds, but that the distortions will not be enough to move entire continents?
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2017, 04:55:04 AM »
All planes are not the same, and planes do not travel at a set speed through the duration of their flight.
Irrelevant when taking an average, and incorrect when speaking about the vast majority of an intercontinental flight.
Tom,  can we come to agreement that you are correct that all planes, do not travel at the same speed, but that this fact will be irrelevant to my project of making a rough map of the world?  Do you agree that we can expect distortions because of the non-uniform air speeds, but that the distortions will not be enough to move entire continents?
I wonder if Tom would accept it as close enough if we chose routes traveled by a certain model of aircraft?  Say, we include ONLY those routes followed by Airbus A380, or Boeing 787?  Knowing that an given model of airplane has a small envelope of best-fuel-efficiency operating speed, and knowing that airlines have a strong incentive (the profit motive) to fly their routes with as little fuel consumption as possible, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that all airlines would try to fly within that speed window as much as they could, and would plan their timetables accordingly.  They CAN fly faster, of course, but would do so only when they have to (making up for late departures or trying to outrun the weather, for example).
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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2017, 07:31:51 AM »
I wish I got anywhere with my question about longitude in  the Q&A forum, but nothing seems to come of the threads I post.

If you want to figure the distance from New York to Paris, can you use time and the motion of the sun or stars to figure it? That is, if you can measure distances in North America (e.g. by driving), and you can measure distances in Europe (again, by driving), and you can observe that the sun moves a certain number of degrees across the sky in a certain amount of time (15 degrees), then can you use a clock and just observe the angle of the sun to get a value for east/west distance across oceans?

Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2017, 12:41:49 PM »
Did the people here actually graduate elementary school or something?

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2017, 06:43:04 PM »
Did the people here actually graduate elementary school or something?

Your going to be suspended with this type of low content.

Look this is the same 4-5 peeps that talk to themselves here with crazy hypothesis. They get a good little paycheck from the soon to be leader down under.

There are maps made throughout history, pick one and go sailing.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2017, 10:57:55 PM »
If you want to figure the distance from New York to Paris, can you use time and the motion of the sun or stars to figure it? That is, if you can measure distances in North America (e.g. by driving), and you can measure distances in Europe (again, by driving), and you can observe that the sun moves a certain number of degrees across the sky in a certain amount of time (15 degrees), then can you use a clock and just observe the angle of the sun to get a value for east/west distance across oceans?
Thanks douglips.  That is an interesting idea for measuring distance along any specific latitude line.  I'll use that to check my numbers.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2017, 05:23:52 AM »
Do you actually know this or are you making stuff up? Over long distances there is little variation in aircraft type and cruise speed.

Incorrect.

Quote
And I really don't know how you come up with the idea that planes should change speed by much during flights.

In another thread we were looking at a live map of international flights and we saw the speeds of each aircraft fluctuating by large amounts on a minute by minute basis.

Quote
Anyway, he's averaging the results to compensate. We'll see how the error bars are when he's finished.

Averaging a groundspeed that is based on Round Earth coordinates will give you an average derived from Round Earth coordinates. Such an effort will  be invalid for determining whether the Round Earth coordinate system is correct.