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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #180 on: July 14, 2018, 07:46:30 PM »
Perspective:

The moon will only shift by two degrees under the Round Earth model. Do the math .
You need to explain in more detail. What math do you have an issue with exactly?

As a body increases its distance from you the less it will turn to perspective. The examples of corners of rooms tilting, planes tilting, rubix cubes tilting as they are seen over the observer are all irrelevant, since the distance to the moon as it passes over you in RET is at a much greater distance, and generally stays the same distance from you at all times.

You did the math on how much the moon would tilt or change position due to perspective in RET before in previous threads. I saw you. Don't play dumb. You know that the moon barely shifts or turns to perspective.

DO THE MATH

In your trolling video against me, in the examples bobby is referencing, and many other explanations, you and others are referencing SMALL SCALE OR CLOSE UP perspective. I don't really give a flip about those explanations. They only showcase a handicap in logic, as far as I am concerned.

Really? Let's see you do the math. I never see you do it. You propose these thought experiment analogies all the time without any math to back them up. And they are often faulty analogical models. But you don't care. You call it zetetic.

Now, here are actual (not imaginary) demonstrations to model the phenomenon and you want us to do the math.  Fine. Show us how it's done.

Edit:

Here's an upcoming scenario if you don't have the numbers for that photo.

Attached is an image approximating what the moon will look like from San Francisco on July 19th at 9PM, about 32 minutes after sunset. The sun will have set on the 298° azimuth and at 9PM will be about 6° below the horizon (we ARE talking round earth here) on a 302° bearing line when the half moon is looking like this to a San Francisco viewer.

The moon will bear 212° and be 39° above the horizon.

Now, use "round earth theory" numbers for distances and show me how to "do the math."
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 08:05:01 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #181 on: July 14, 2018, 08:25:45 PM »
I suggest that everyone reads the full text of the article associated with Tom's isolated Moon picture (with the arrow)

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~amyers/MoonPaper20June.pdf

Yes. Read that, and notice the following.

The number of times the author tries to explain the effect with the change of angles of something close up, such as the angled corners of the room or a building when you travel past it: numerous

The number of times the author actually uses the distance to the moon in any of her calculations: none

The number of times the author remarks how mysterious and hard to explain the issue is: several

Really? Let's see you do the math. I never see you do it. You propose these thought experiment analogies all the time without any math to back them up.

It is easy to see how perspective plays very little part in the Round Earth system.

In RET the distance to the moon is 238,900 miles.

Imagining that distance as a radius of a circle, with observers positioned all around it, we can get the circumference of that circle with C=2*pi*R.

The circumference is 1501052.96989 miles

We divide it by 360 to get 4169.59158301 miles per degree

The diameter of the earth is 7,917.5 miles

7,917.5 / 4169.59158301 = a ratio of 1.89, or a little less than 2 degrees.

If we place the earth on the circumference we created above, with two observers standing on direct opposite sides of the earth, about 7917.5 miles apart, looking at the moon on their horizon should see a difference in shift of less than 2 degrees. This should also mean that the moon will shift back and fourth very minimally as it passes over the head of the observer.

The shift in perspective, under the Round Earth Theory, should be very slight.

Factoring in the idea that the moon does not always pass directly overhead does not help either. The shift in perspective should be very slight whether you were at the North Pole of a Round Earth or at the equator. Under the Round Earth model the moon is very far away.

The concept that perspective would play hardly any part in the observation of the moon under the Round Earth system is straight forward and apparent. Tilting, shifting, all becomes less and less with greater distances. Lets see your math on these dramatic perspective shifts or tilts. Go.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 09:38:33 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #182 on: July 14, 2018, 09:42:02 PM »
How does the string point to the direction of the sun if the sun is below the horizon and the moon is pointing upwards into the sky?

Are you telling us that any and all angles that are pointing upwards are eventually going to come back and meet the earth's horizon rather traveling out into space?  ::)

instead of imaging the experiment in your head, just do it.  it takes 20 seconds and a piece of string.  if you do the experiment, then you will see exactly why you're confused.

you're just thinking of the space as a 2d projection.  it's a 3d space.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #183 on: July 14, 2018, 09:46:10 PM »
How does the string point to the direction of the sun if the sun is below the horizon and the moon is pointing upwards into the sky?

Are you telling us that any and all angles that are pointing upwards are eventually going to come back and meet the earth's horizon rather traveling out into space?  ::)

instead of imaging the experiment in your head, just do it.  it takes 20 seconds and a piece of string.  if you do the experiment, then you will see exactly why you're confused.

you're just thinking of the space as a 2d projection.  it's a 3d space.



Are you asserting that if Dexter fires his laser cannon, that the laser beam will leave the weapon and eventually intersect the horizon of the earth?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 10:00:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #184 on: July 14, 2018, 09:58:41 PM »
you're just thinking of the space as a 2d projection.  it's a 3d space.



Are you asserting that if Dexter fires his laser cannon, that the laser beam will leave the weapon and eventually intersect the horizon of the earth?

you're kinda just proving my point here. 

also i'm genuinely stunned that you of all people would use a carton as evidence of your claims.  instead of arguing about cartoons, why not just do the experiment?  i don't understand your reluctance.  it costs virtually no time or money.  as an empiricist, what reason could you possibly have not to see for yourself?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #185 on: July 14, 2018, 10:12:13 PM »
The moon disappears when it gets too close to the sun. The moon is only seen in the day when the sun is across from it at nearly the maximum distance it can be from it in the opposite sky; and when it gets too high, it disappears. If you imagine straight lines curving on a dome of the sky, of course there is going to be an area where anything pointing upwards can seem to arc to a place across to the opposite sky, and into the opposite horizon.

You can imagine lines on the above Dexter cartoon still that arcs around to the opposite horizon and intersects it. But will a laser that points upwards really hit the opposite horizon when fired? No. You are imagining silly celestial sphere nonsense.

You are imaging the line bending on a dome to hit something in the opposite sky and the curve of that bend is up to your own imagination. If the laser weapon in the above image were a real object, you could take a string and connect the tip of that laser weapon in the above image to almost anything in the opposite sky.

None of the above are explanatory. Making a connection that this is an "explanation" for what is happening, in any way, is fallacious.

Do the math under the Round Earth model. Perspective cannot cause things to shift or tilt to the degree it needs to. Don't post malarkey about strings and corners of the ceilings and about how you drove past a building and saw that it turned or tilted in angle.

DO THE MATH
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 10:35:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #186 on: July 14, 2018, 10:30:27 PM »
The moon disappears when it gets too close to the sun. The moon is only seen in the day when the sun is across from it at nearly the maximum distance it can be from it in the opposite sky; and when it gets too high, it disappears. If you imagine straight lines curving on a dome of the skymof course there is going to be an area where anything pointing upwards can seem to arc to a place across to the opposite sky, and into the opposite horizon.

You can imagine lines on the above Dexter cartoon still that arcs around to the opposite horizon and intersects it. But will a laser that points upwards really hit the opposite horizon when fired? No. You are imagining silly celestial sphere nonsense.

You are imaging the line bending on a dome to hit something in the opposite sky and the curve of that bend is up to your own imagination. If the laser weapon in the above image were a real object, you could take a string and connect the tip of that laser weapon in the above image to almost anything in the opposite sky.

None of the above are explanatory. Making a connection that this is an "explanation" for what is happening, in any way, is fallacious.

Do the math under the Round Earth model. Perspective cannot cause things to shift or tilt to the degree it needs to. Don't post malarkey about strings and corners of the ceilings and about how you drove past a building and saw that it turned or tilted in angle.

DO THE MATH
The path of the earth, moon and sun are documented and proven.  Look it up.  And perspecive does not come into the discussion, even you version of it.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #187 on: July 14, 2018, 10:36:27 PM »
And if you draw in the horizon line for the observer the moon points into the observer's horizon.


That's not a horizon for the photographer. That's a tangent to the surface of the Earth.

Here's where the photographer's horizon line will be (not to scale, obviously)



Since his camera is looking up 45 degrees toward the Moon, he's looking above the horizon at that side, along the shortest side of the green triangle.

Since the purple circle of his horizon is completely in the night side of Earth, the sun is below his horizon. The illumination of the Moon, along the longest side of the green triangle, doesn't care where he is, as there's a direct line between the Moon and Sun (even though the sun is below the photographer's horizon.

You need to think in 3D, not 2D.   
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #188 on: July 14, 2018, 10:43:29 PM »

DO THE MATH

Do it right.

You're in the wrong axis, one that has nothing to do with the sun.

Here's what you're doing. Here's my 4.5"D moon placed 40' away:



And here it is again with the camera moved laterally 15":



This is scaled to the actual distances and is the tiny "shift" you are calculating.

But that's rotation of the moon's lateral planes about either the x-axis (if observers are split E/W) or the y-axis (if observers are split N/S).



What you've calculated is why you don't see "around" the moon given RE distances and sizes of moon and earth. But that's an earth/moon relationship only and has nothing to do with the rotation about the z-axis, which is what the picture of the sun's light on the moon not pointing to the sun is all about.

Here's THAT rotation:



So, back to the drawing board, Tom. Do the math for that rotation, and you'll have to work in not just the distances of the sun to the earth and moon, but the difference in perspective angles to each from earth.


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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #189 on: July 14, 2018, 10:49:36 PM »
The path of the earth, moon and sun are documented and proven.  Look it up.  And perspecive does not come into the discussion, even you version of it.
[/quote]Perspective very much does come into the discussion in order to explain why the light/shadow of the sun doesn't appear to be pointing straight at the sun from the perspective of earth.



Ignore what Tom posted. He's working the wrong problem.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #190 on: July 14, 2018, 10:52:49 PM »
And if you draw in the horizon line for the observer the moon points into the observer's horizon.

https://i.imgur.com/YR9cWkE.png

That's not a horizon for the photographer. That's a tangent to the surface of the Earth.

Here's where the photographer's horizon line will be (not to scale, obviously)

https://i.imgur.com/o5sFEJp.jpg

Since his camera is looking up 45 degrees toward the Moon, he's looking above the horizon at that side, along the shortest side of the green triangle.

Since the purple circle of his horizon is completely in the night side of Earth, the sun is below his horizon. The illumination of the Moon, along the longest side of the green triangle, doesn't care where he is, as there's a direct line between the Moon and Sun (even though the sun is below the photographer's horizon.

You need to think in 3D, not 2D.

The phase of the moon is still pointing into the horizon, Tumeni.


DO THE MATH

Do it right.

You're in the wrong axis, one that has nothing to do with the sun.

Here's what you're doing. Here's my 4.5"D moon placed 40' away:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/1zl94z6.jpg

And here it is again with the camera moved laterally 15":

http://oi68.tinypic.com/1zl94z6.jpg

That's right. The perspective shift with distant bodies would be very small. If that moon were Rubix Cube suspended 1 foot above your head the shift would be far greater when you walk away by 15 feet.

Quote
But that's rotation of the moon's lateral planes about either the x-axis (if observers are split E/W) or the y-axis (if observers are split N/S).

http://oi63.tinypic.com/n6lgg.jpg

What you've calculated is why you don't see "around" the moon given RE distances and sizes of moon and earth. But that's an earth/moon relationship only and has nothing to do with the rotation about the z-axis, which is what the picture of the sun's light on the moon not pointing to the sun is all about.

The moon isn't going to shift by less than two degrees, but tilt by 45 degrees. Don't be that person.

DO THE MATH

SHOW HOW THESE VAST PERSPECTIVE TILT CHANGES CAN OCCUR IN RET
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 11:04:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #191 on: July 14, 2018, 10:55:17 PM »
Perspective very much does come into the discussion in order to explain why the light/shadow of the sun doesn't appear to be pointing straight at the sun from the perspective of earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2gTSjoEExc

Ignore what Tom posted. He's working the wrong problem.

The author of that video is, once again, as in the numerous explanations we have seen, comparing close range perspective tilting to a grand Round Earth system with bodies that are very far away.

DO THE MATH

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #192 on: July 14, 2018, 10:56:31 PM »
If you look at my diagram above, which is a top-down view, and imagine it side-on, it looks like this



The Moon's orbit is now a line across the screen, and it would appear to move from side to side in this field of view, in front of and behind the Earth (white line). Sun is still to the left. Photographer cannot see sun beyond horizon, but moon is above his horizon.

Illumination from sun to moon is independent of photographer's position 
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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #193 on: July 14, 2018, 10:56:46 PM »
Tom, I thought you were an "empiricist". Just pick a place, a date, and a time. Take photos or videos of the sun and moon. Show us what you get. The way you prove this empirically is to hold up a ball like we said. Do this when the sun is still hitting you. Do this every 15 minutes while the sun is setting. Then continue to take your photos/videos of the moon (without the ball) after the sun sets.

When the sun was up, your ball will have shown you what the angle towards the sun looks like at that vantage point. Notice how that angle changes during those 15 minute intervals. Once the sun is down and you can no longer use the ball, extrapolate the pattern of angles to show that the moon keeps rotating at a consistent rate with its lit side still pointing towards the sun - even though you can no longer see the sun.

That's how empiricists do this. This is your chance.

I'll do you even better. Pick the place, the date, and the time when you plan to do this in advance. We'll run the actual math and tell you the angle of the light, and THEN you go measure it. Take photos and show just how "untenable" our predictions are.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #194 on: July 14, 2018, 10:58:39 PM »
SHOW HOW THESE VAST PERSPECTIVE TILT CHANGES CAN OCCUR IN RET

WHAT vast changes?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #195 on: July 14, 2018, 10:59:40 PM »
The phase of the moon is still pointing into the horizon, Tumeni.

In my diagram? No, I disagree
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #196 on: July 14, 2018, 11:00:26 PM »

The moon isn't going to shift by less than two degrees, but tilt by 45 degrees. Don't be that person.

DO THE MATH

SHOW HOW THESE VAST PERSPECTIVE TILT CHANGES CAN OCCUR IN RET


"SHOUT" all you want, but until you can grasp that you're working in the wrong axes, you're just going to remain frustrated, thinking that you're right and we're not getting it.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #197 on: July 14, 2018, 11:08:27 PM »
You can't explain this mathematically, and we have not seen a mathematical analysis by an astronomer using the distances and sizes in RET. This is for the simple fact that this matter is unexpainable.

The perspective tilting explanation is fiction. If there was a real explanation, we would have a real document to point to -- not a stupid youtube video of some close range perspective tilting effects.

This needs to be described using the real properties of the Round Earth System. I thought it was supposed to predict everything? Show it then. Show that the Round Earth System can cause this sort of tilting.

HorstFue

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #198 on: July 14, 2018, 11:17:32 PM »

That's a really nice one. For me it shows, we're on a sphere.
The illusion is, that not the moon is tilted, it's the observer! And together with the observer the horizon is tilted.
If you were looking west or east on some moderate latitude on spherical earth, the horizon is not parallel to the equatorial plane, it's tilted, on first approximation by an angle of 90° - latobserver .
(no taking into account of the inclination of earth axis)
If you wait some hours, when the moon is in the south, the moon will appear upright. That's because the horizon in south (or north) is parallel to equatorial plane.
If this image would have been taken with an "Equatorial mount" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatorial_mount for the camera, the moon would have appeared upright, with your arrow pointing parallel to the equatorial plane, where it would 'find' the Sun.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 11:39:51 PM by HorstFue »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #199 on: July 14, 2018, 11:26:09 PM »
You did the math on how much the moon would tilt or change position due to perspective in RET before in previous threads. I saw you. Don't play dumb. You know that the moon barely shifts or turns to perspective.

DO THE MATH

In your trolling video against me, in the examples bobby is referencing, and many other explanations, you and others are referencing small scale or close up perspective. I don't really give a flip about those explanations. They only showcase a handicap in logic and critical thinking, as far as I am concerned.

My video was a bit trollish. I should apologize. I was irritated when I discovered that you knew full-well what the moon terminator illusion was and how it worked, but you chose to act as if you didn't. I was a bit direct in my criticism of you. Normally, I go out of my way to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

So if you would be so big as to accept my apology, I'd suggest you watch the parts of the video where I show the simulation, you'll see that it is not "up-close". Nowhere in that simulation did I state what the scale was. If we agree that the scale is such that the moon was 30 feet from the viewer, you get the picture I showed. Instead we could say the moon was 30 miles from the viewer, the picture doesn't change - I just have a moon that's way too big. Its lighting won't change. Now say the moon was 300,000 miles from the viewer. Again I've got my moon sized wrong now, but the lighting angles don't change with distance.

Oh yes. I can do the math. You know that I can. And since you know and trust that I can do the math, perhaps you should trust me when I tell you, "Tom, you're doing the math wrong." If you'd listen, we can explain your mistakes and show the correct math.