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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« on: December 15, 2018, 06:24:56 PM »


Westward view from Mt Woodson in San Diego County on 12/13 @ 0641 PST.

This is different from the underside of clouds being illuminated by a sun "below" the horizon. Here, we're looking in the opposite direction of sunrise and seeing illumination of low altitude atmosphere before the sun has appeared to the east.

I believe this is the antisolar line. I believe this to be another sun-related phenomenon that could be a discriminator between a flat and globe earth.

Curiosity File

Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 10:15:57 PM »
That's an incredible shot.
So we're looking at a glow at the western horizon from a pre eastern sunrise? Meaning you can't actually see the sun rising to the east due to it still being bellow the curvature of the earth, or in the case of from San Diego, the Laguna Mts being the horizon? Interesting.
What are you suggesting is the cause  of this glow,this lighting phenomena, or are you asking? The question is quite intriguing.
 

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 11:01:00 PM »
That's an incredible shot.
So we're looking at a glow at the western horizon from a pre eastern sunrise? Meaning you can't actually see the sun rising to the east due to it still being bellow the curvature of the earth, or in the case of from San Diego, the Laguna Mts being the horizon? Interesting.
What are you suggesting is the cause  of this glow,this lighting phenomena, or are you asking? The question is quite intriguing.
That image was 1 minute before astronomical sunrise. Camera height on antenna mast is around 2000' MSL. The Cuyamaca range to the east (just west of the Lagunas) create the artificial elevated horizon that delays sunrise a little for the basin of San Diego. So, yes, San Diego (and the Woodson peak) were still in shadow, minutes before the sun would rise over the Cuyamacas.

To the west, a surface layer haze, trapped by a temperature inversion, extends up to around 1000' anywhere from 10 to 25 miles off shore. This is what is catching the rising sun's first rays while land and coast to the east are still in shadow.

The peninsular mountain ranges east of San Diego could be the source of shadow and why low elevation haze to the west is glowing while elevations closer but lower to the Cuyamacas are still in twilight. However, there are no mountains to the west and yet the same anti-solar glow sometimes  occurs to the east at sunset.

My conclusion is it's a feature of a globe earth, but I offer it up for discussion.

(I'll see if I can find a comparable eastern glow during sunset photo.)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 11:02:46 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Curiosity File

Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 11:27:24 PM »
Thanks for the in depth explanation. I now the landscape and geography well as I spent the better part of 45edit(54 years) years in San Diego.
I also enjoy your La Jolla to Carlsbad threads.

Some points of interest to further your investigations and experiments I suggest Cuyamaca and Laguna lookout points to the east towards the Salten Sea. Should give you really good perspective of distance and elevation, line of sight etc. and some really good sunrise shots. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 11:41:07 PM by Curiosity File »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2018, 12:59:29 AM »
It's a phenomenon known as alpenglow.  It's fairly common in mountain areas in the "blue hour" before sunrise or after sunset.
Alpenglow (from German: Alpenglühen, Italian: Enrosadira) is an optical phenomenon that appears as a horizontal reddish glow near the horizon opposite of the Sun when the solar disk is just below the horizon. This effect is easily visible when mountains are illuminated, but can also be seen when clouds are lit through backscatter.

Since the sun is below the horizon, there is no direct path for the sunlight to reach the mountain. Unlike sunrise or sunset, the light that causes alpenglow is reflected off airborne precipitation, ice crystals, or particulates in the lower atmosphere. These conditions differentiate between a normal sunrise or sunset, and alpenglow.
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2018, 01:28:32 AM »
Cool. Thanks. I'd heard of that but didn't think that might be applicable here.

I'm going to bounce that off of a meteorological expert just to be sure.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2018, 01:46:43 AM »
I took this with my phone while driving east on I-8 (Mission Valley) September 17th, 6 minutes after sunset:



Alpenglow?

Curiosity File

Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2018, 02:35:13 AM »
Alpine Glow. I have some great pictures of this phenomena over Mt Shasta from Lake Shastina, which is about 10 to 15 mile as a crow flies. Not sure it's te same thing as what your photos show but maybe the same principle. I wont share my private pics but here's some links to some that show the same things

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2015/08/the-mystical-mysteries-of-mt-shasta/

https://www.123rf.com/photo_74550901_mt-shasta-northern-sunset--sunset-over-mt-shasta.html

And this more describes Alpenglow and it seems to refer mountains, snow and clouds to be responsible as well as atmosphere as we're seeing in your pics.
https://digital-photography-school.com/what-is-alpenglow/

 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 02:36:52 AM by Curiosity File »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2018, 05:24:57 AM »
The sun is higher above the horizon when you are higher in altitude. That part of the atmosphere can see the redness of the sunset, and the part below it cannot.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2018, 05:44:39 AM »
The sun is higher above the horizon when you are higher in altitude. That part of the atmosphere can see the redness of the sunset, and the part below it cannot.

That's what I thought too. And the reason why "the part below cannot" on a globe is curvature. What's the reason on a flat earth?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2018, 05:49:14 AM »
The answer for the perspective explanation is that when you increase your altitude you are broadening your perspective lines, can see further, and it will take longer for the sun to set into your horizon. That part of the sky is seeing the sunset slightly higher, since that part of the sky is higher in altitude.

The explanation for EAT is that the sun's ray's are barely missing the earth and are hitting the red area of the horizon.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 05:53:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

Curiosity File

Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 05:59:56 AM »
The answer for the perspective explanation is that when you increase your altitude you are broadening your perspective lines, can see further, and it will take longer for the sun to set into your horizon. That part of the sky is seeing the sunset slightly higher, since that part of the sky is higher in altitude.

The explanation for EAT is that the sun's ray's are barely missing the earth and are hitting the red area of the horizon.
But on a flat earth with the sun always at 3.000 up from the surface of the earth, how does it get close to the horizon? Because there is no red areas unless the sun is near the horizon.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 06:14:52 AM »
The answer for the perspective explanation is that when you increase your altitude you are broadening your perspective lines, can see further, and it will take longer for the sun to set into your horizon. That part of the sky is seeing the sunset slightly higher, since that part of the sky is higher in altitude.

The explanation for EAT is that the sun's ray's are barely missing the earth and are hitting the red area of the horizon.
But on a flat earth with the sun always at 3.000 up from the surface of the earth, how does it get close to the horizon? Because there is no red areas unless the sun is near the horizon.

For that part of the sky the sun is near the horizon.

I am not sure what you are asking, exactly. The explanations would either be setting by perspective or EAT. For perspective the idea that the perspective lines would approach each other for infinity without meeting is disputed.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 06:16:55 AM by Tom Bishop »

Curiosity File

Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 06:16:52 AM »
The answer for the perspective explanation is that when you increase your altitude you are broadening your perspective lines, can see further, and it will take longer for the sun to set into your horizon. That part of the sky is seeing the sunset slightly higher, since that part of the sky is higher in altitude.

The explanation for EAT is that the sun's ray's are barely missing the earth and are hitting the red area of the horizon.
But on a flat earth with the sun always at 3.000 up from the surface of the earth, how does it get close to the horizon? Because there is no red areas unless the sun is near the horizon.

For that part of the sky the sun is near the horizon.

I am not sure what you are asking, exactly. The explanations would either be setting by perspective or EAT. For perspective the idea that the perspective lines would approach each other for infinity is disputed.
How does it set by perspective?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 06:17:33 AM »
The same way railroad tracks seem to meet each other, for all intents, in a railroad perspective scene.

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2018, 06:24:03 AM »
The same way railroad tracks seem to meet each other, for all intents, in a railroad perspective scene.
You mean by perspective it appears to shrink the further away it gets? But the sun doesn't appear to shrink. And the horizon is only miles away if we're looking out over the ocean. Why doesn't the sun shrink like everything else does as it gets farther away?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2018, 06:27:09 AM »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2018, 06:30:53 AM »
The answer for the perspective explanation is that when you increase your altitude you are broadening your perspective lines, can see further, and it will take longer for the sun to set into your horizon. That part of the sky is seeing the sunset slightly higher, since that part of the sky is higher in altitude.

The explanation for EAT is that the sun's ray's are barely missing the earth and are hitting the red area of the horizon.

Which is it? Can't be both. EAT at least makes sense. Perspective doesn't.

As with the underlit clouds topic. Perspective can't do what you ascribe to it. And it's even more impossible with this phenomenon.

Now, if you're on board the EAT train, that's another story and that's where a flat earth model could focus to contest globe curvature. But then it'd just be a counter and not a better explanation. The key is in how to distinguish between Flat+EAT and Globe curvature.

But Perspective is no good.

Curiosity File

Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2018, 06:33:49 AM »
Read here: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

 The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.

So the farther away it get this magnification effect makes it look larger. But it's not in the strata of the atmolayer or anywhere near the atmosphere, it's 3,000 mile up. And this doesn't happen to anything else on earth. Why just the moon and sun? Could you be mistaken about what you're really seeing?   

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of Western Horizon at Sunrise
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2018, 06:42:01 AM »
A sun 700 miles or 3000 miles over a flat earth can never get to a zero degree angle of elevation given the distances on earth. Perspective can't cheat geometry.
Perspective is the result of geometry. The only way for a receding sun that is forever above the plane of a flat earth at the altitude FET models claim to be in line of sight with a horizon is for its light to bend upward.