The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: wajeehleo on January 22, 2020, 11:22:45 AM

Title: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on January 22, 2020, 11:22:45 AM
Hi I am wajeeh, and I believe earth is flat as I havent seen any of the evidence found regarding round shaped earth but I stuck at satellites and how GPS works thing. can any flat earther explain if there is no satellite how GPS works?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 22, 2020, 11:51:38 AM
Hi I am wajeeh, and I believe earth is flat as I havent seen any of the evidence found regarding round shaped earth but I stuck at satellites and how GPS works thing. can any flat earther explain if there is no satellite how GPS works?
Do you use a smartphone?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on January 23, 2020, 10:20:32 AM
Hi I am wajeeh, and I believe earth is flat as I havent seen any of the evidence found regarding round shaped earth but I stuck at satellites and how GPS works thing. can any flat earther explain if there is no satellite how GPS works?
Do you use a smartphone?

Yes I am using smartphone.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 23, 2020, 12:20:35 PM
Hi I am wajeeh, and I believe earth is flat as I havent seen any of the evidence found regarding round shaped earth but I stuck at satellites and how GPS works thing. can any flat earther explain if there is no satellite how GPS works?
Do you use a smartphone?

Yes I am using smartphone.
Okay, have you ever used Google Maps on your smartphone while driving to and fro?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 23, 2020, 12:59:25 PM
Hi I am wajeeh, and I believe earth is flat as I havent seen any of the evidence found regarding round shaped earth but I stuck at satellites and how GPS works thing. can any flat earther explain if there is no satellite how GPS works?
Do you use a smartphone?

Yes I am using smartphone.
How many satellites is it receiving GPNSS from and from what countries - US, China, Russia, Europe?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on January 23, 2020, 01:11:06 PM
FFS, lackey, if you're going to make a point then can you just make it?!

There doesn't seem to be a coherent FE explanation, the Wiki does have a link to this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JDEZbl-3mM

The people who did the video are pretty deep down the conspiracy theory rabbit-hole, they don't seem to say anything of substance.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 24, 2020, 11:54:05 AM
FFS, lackey, if you're going to make a point then can you just make it?!

There doesn't seem to be a coherent FE explanation, the Wiki does have a link to this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JDEZbl-3mM

The people who did the video are pretty deep down the conspiracy theory rabbit-hole, they don't seem to say anything of substance.
I am engaged in a written dialogue (on topic) with the member who posted the OP and I have some questions I asked him.

Please allow me to continue posting at my own pace.

Thanks.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on January 28, 2020, 08:34:30 AM
FFS, lackey, if you're going to make a point then can you just make it?!

There doesn't seem to be a coherent FE explanation, the Wiki does have a link to this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JDEZbl-3mM

The people who did the video are pretty deep down the conspiracy theory rabbit-hole, they don't seem to say anything of substance.

Thanks @AllAroundTheWorld for sharing interview and I took time to listen carefully to them both and it seems pretty much realistic as masonic lodges exist and one of the familiar masonic group is UGLE from England which is lead by Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. We as Pakistani in denial with all conspiracy because we shutdown all the programs in country after 1971 by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (After he hanged by a General in 1977) Just like saddam hussain who set death penalty for those who promote or acclaim Zionist principles, including freemasonry and you'all know what happened to him. So I believe there powers who always promote their agenda and whatever came in their ways destroyed.

Anyways still didnt get exactly how GPS working. Sorry my bad observation does it means the marin ships docked at sea are gathering information and sending location to each smartphones?

@totallackey Yes I do use GPS while driving.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 28, 2020, 04:48:55 PM
@totallackey Yes I do use GPS while driving.
At times, I find my Google maps on my smartphone (and when I used it, my Garmin) would mysteriously lose signal.

It seems the signal loss would occur in the exact same areas I would lose cell phone connectivity.

Strange, don't you think OP?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 28, 2020, 05:23:32 PM
@totallackey Yes I do use GPS while driving.
At times, I find my Google maps on my smartphone (and when I used it, my Garmin) would mysteriously lose signal.

It seems the signal loss would occur in the exact same areas I would lose cell phone connectivity.

Strange, don't you think OP?
Google Maps uses data connectivity over your cellphone connection.  Unconnected with GPS which receives from  about 20 satellites from US, Europe and China systems.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 28, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
Google Maps uses data connectivity over your cellphone connection.  Unconnected with GPS which receives from  about 20 satellites from US, Europe and China systems.
You are mistaken about this. While it's true that it can and does use supplementary sources of information to improve its accuracy, it "normally" uses GPS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps_Navigation
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 28, 2020, 08:40:22 PM
Google Maps uses data connectivity over your cellphone connection.  Unconnected with GPS which receives from  about 20 satellites from US, Europe and China systems.
You are mistaken about this. While it's true that it can and does use supplementary sources of information to improve its accuracy, it "normally" uses GPS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps_Navigation
The maps themselves are downloaded from the internet, the current position shown will be from a GPS receiver.  Correct?

There is no doubt how GPS works, currently receiving from 20 satellites from 4 systems and occasionally from the Japan system.  Reception totally unrelated to cell phone coverage.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 28, 2020, 10:20:10 PM
There is no doubt how GPS works
TL is suggesting the opposite.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 29, 2020, 08:32:24 AM
There is no doubt how GPS works
TL is suggesting the opposite.
Not clear if he saying he just loses internet access.  GPS receiver will show satellites being received from, he needs to check that.  Not just NASA claiming number of satellites, other systems used.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 29, 2020, 09:24:00 AM
There is no doubt how GPS works
TL is suggesting the opposite.
Not clear if he saying he just loses internet access.  GPS receiver will show satellites being received from, he needs to check that.  Not just NASA claiming number of satellites, other systems used.

Have you verified that they are satellites?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 29, 2020, 10:04:58 AM
There is no doubt how GPS works
TL is suggesting the opposite.
Not clear if he saying he just loses internet access.  GPS receiver will show satellites being received from, he needs to check that.  Not just NASA claiming number of satellites, other systems used.

Have you verified that they are satellites?
Yes, the documentation confirms this.  For the US, Russian, Chinese, European and Japanese systems.  The raw data from receivers (NMEA) gives details. 

For example:
The GSV message string identifies the number of SVs in view, the PRN numbers, elevations, azimuths, and SNR values.

Unrelated, but the position of TV broadcast satellites above the equator is as documented and proved by dish alignment.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on January 29, 2020, 10:50:48 AM
There is no doubt how GPS works
TL is suggesting the opposite.
Not clear if he saying he just loses internet access.  GPS receiver will show satellites being received from, he needs to check that.  Not just NASA claiming number of satellites, other systems used.

Have you verified that they are satellites?
How would you suggest anyone goes about that?
Have you verified the signals are coming from any other source? If so, how?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 29, 2020, 11:50:41 AM
Just for clarity, in case anyone has doubt, I find it highly suspicious that both Google Maps (the system I utilize on my smartphone, which I use pretty much exclusively now) and the Garmin system (plus I used TomTom briefly) have conclusively demonstrated (at least to me in various commutes) to lose signal access to these supposed GPS satellites in the same general areas where I have no cell phone signal.

For me anyway, I think it demonstrates the idea of GPS "satellites" is total hoakum.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 29, 2020, 12:49:17 PM
Just for clarity, in case anyone has doubt, I find it highly suspicious that both Google Maps (the system I utilize on my smartphone, which I use pretty much exclusively now) and the Garmin system (plus I used TomTom briefly) have conclusively demonstrated (at least to me in various commutes) to lose signal access to these supposed GPS satellites in the same general areas where I have no cell phone signal.

For me anyway, I think it demonstrates the idea of GPS "satellites" is total hoakum.
Is this indoors?  You may think that, but there is no doubt about how the various GPS systems work.  Do you have details of how you think it works, in detail.  Note that GPS works in the middle of oceans.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 29, 2020, 01:19:07 PM
Just for clarity, in case anyone has doubt, I find it highly suspicious that both Google Maps (the system I utilize on my smartphone, which I use pretty much exclusively now) and the Garmin system (plus I used TomTom briefly) have conclusively demonstrated (at least to me in various commutes) to lose signal access to these supposed GPS satellites in the same general areas where I have no cell phone signal.

For me anyway, I think it demonstrates the idea of GPS "satellites" is total hoakum.
Is this indoors?  You may think that, but there is no doubt about how the various GPS systems work.  Do you have details of how you think it works, in detail.  Note that GPS works in the middle of oceans.
My commutes take place on county roads, city streets, state and US highways and Interstates.

My commutes requiring the use of Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom involve an automobile.

What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: ChrisTP on January 29, 2020, 01:37:18 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 29, 2020, 01:40:13 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
So you have captained a ship using GPS in the middle of an ocean?

Could you please write more about it?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: ChrisTP on January 29, 2020, 01:46:27 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
So you have captained a ship using GPS in the middle of an ocean?

Could you please write more about it?
I haven't personally captained a ship (though I have a smaller boat of my own) but it's not important that I haven't. Just like how it's not important you haven't gone to Antarctica to see the 'ice wall' for yourself to believe it's a thing that exists. It's quite common knowledge I think. Here's the first article about it from a google search.

https://www.gps.gov/applications/marine/

You can also find information about gps coverage if you look hard enough.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 29, 2020, 01:48:29 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
So you have captained a ship using GPS in the middle of an ocean?

Could you please write more about it?
I haven't personally captained a ship (though I have a smaller boat of my own) but it's not important that I haven't. Just like how it's not important you haven't gone to Antarctica to see the 'ice wall' for yourself to believe it's a thing that exists. It's quite common knowledge I think. Here's the first article about it from a google search.

https://www.gps.gov/applications/marine/

You can also find information about gps coverage if you look hard enough.
So the extent of your personal experience with GPS is reading about the subject?

Nothing in the middle of the ocean?

Any personal use on land then?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on January 29, 2020, 01:53:26 PM
Lackey, while personal experience is obviously a good basis for belief, it is not the only basis.
I have never been to Australia, but I believe that kangaroos live there.

Oasis of the Seas have introduced GPS tracking for parents to help find their children on board

https://www.intasure.com/blog/travel/cruise_ship_introduces_gps_tracking.asp
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: ChrisTP on January 29, 2020, 02:03:25 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
So you have captained a ship using GPS in the middle of an ocean?

Could you please write more about it?
I haven't personally captained a ship (though I have a smaller boat of my own) but it's not important that I haven't. Just like how it's not important you haven't gone to Antarctica to see the 'ice wall' for yourself to believe it's a thing that exists. It's quite common knowledge I think. Here's the first article about it from a google search.

https://www.gps.gov/applications/marine/

You can also find information about gps coverage if you look hard enough.
So the extent of your personal experience with GPS is reading about the subject?

Nothing in the middle of the ocean?

Any personal use on land then?
Have you had personal experience of being incapable of using gps in the middle of an ocean as the captain of a ship? If you're asking have I been on a boat and been able to use gps then yes I have, but only around English channel and once off the coast from Western Sahara, but I have only been 'captain' of some of those in the English channel, all private boats. GPS is still used by larger ships though, ask any captain of some of those larger ships that go a bit further out to sea. I'll eat my own hat if there is some kind of conspiracy about gps. It works. Lives depend on it.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on January 29, 2020, 04:01:24 PM
Article about GPS use at sea
http://www.sailtrain.co.uk/gps/index.htm
On one cruise I was on they said that for now they still have to use paper charts as a backup but if I remember right that said that was changing as it was getting so reliable they didn't need to and could rely on GPS exclusively.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 29, 2020, 04:16:09 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
So you have captained a ship using GPS in the middle of an ocean?

Could you please write more about it?
I haven't personally captained a ship (though I have a smaller boat of my own) but it's not important that I haven't. Just like how it's not important you haven't gone to Antarctica to see the 'ice wall' for yourself to believe it's a thing that exists. It's quite common knowledge I think. Here's the first article about it from a google search.

https://www.gps.gov/applications/marine/

You can also find information about gps coverage if you look hard enough.
So the extent of your personal experience with GPS is reading about the subject?

Nothing in the middle of the ocean?

Any personal use on land then?
Have you had personal experience of being incapable of using gps in the middle of an ocean as the captain of a ship? If you're asking have I been on a boat and been able to use gps then yes I have, but only around English channel and once off the coast from Western Sahara, but I have only been 'captain' of some of those in the English channel, all private boats. GPS is still used by larger ships though, ask any captain of some of those larger ships that go a bit further out to sea. I'll eat my own hat if there is some kind of conspiracy about gps. It works. Lives depend on it.
I have wrote about the the extent of my personal experience using GPS in this thread.

I didn't bring up the words "middle of the ocean."

inquisitive offered that tidbit.

I replied directly to him.

You chose to reply to me.

No one here can offer any personal experience about using GPS in the "middle of the ocean."

Lives don't depend on the use of GPS while sailing the oceans.

The entire context and purpose of using the words," middle of the ocean," is to paint a picture that GPS encompasses the mythical globe and can operate even in the most remote areas of the mythical globe.

One issue with this is the laughable idea that ships are operating willy-nilly across the Seven Seas.

Reality is, they are not.

Ships are traveling the same time worn routes they have taken for hundreds of years, with few exceptions.

My experience is this: My GPS connectivity on strictly GPS devices and my cell phone is lost when I also lose cell phone signal and access to the internet.

No one can dispute that.

It is highly likely that GPS is more related to signal transmitters on the flat earth plane than anything in the aether above our heads.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 29, 2020, 04:31:30 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
So you have captained a ship using GPS in the middle of an ocean?

Could you please write more about it?
I haven't personally captained a ship (though I have a smaller boat of my own) but it's not important that I haven't. Just like how it's not important you haven't gone to Antarctica to see the 'ice wall' for yourself to believe it's a thing that exists. It's quite common knowledge I think. Here's the first article about it from a google search.

https://www.gps.gov/applications/marine/

You can also find information about gps coverage if you look hard enough.
So the extent of your personal experience with GPS is reading about the subject?

Nothing in the middle of the ocean?

Any personal use on land then?
Have you had personal experience of being incapable of using gps in the middle of an ocean as the captain of a ship? If you're asking have I been on a boat and been able to use gps then yes I have, but only around English channel and once off the coast from Western Sahara, but I have only been 'captain' of some of those in the English channel, all private boats. GPS is still used by larger ships though, ask any captain of some of those larger ships that go a bit further out to sea. I'll eat my own hat if there is some kind of conspiracy about gps. It works. Lives depend on it.
I have wrote about the the extent of my personal experience using GPS in this thread.

I didn't bring up the words "middle of the ocean."

inquisitive offered that tidbit.

I replied directly to him.

You chose to reply to me.

No one here can offer any personal experience about using GPS in the "middle of the ocean."

The entire context and purpose of using the words," middle of the ocean," is to paint a picture that GPS encompasses the mythical globe and can operate even in the most remote areas of the mythical globe.

One issue with this is the laughable idea that ships are operating willy-nilly across the Seven Seas.

Reality is, they are not.

Ships are traveling the same time worn routes they have taken for hundreds of years, with few exceptions.

My experience is this: My GPS connectivity on strictly GPS devices and my cell phone is lost when I also lose cell phone signal and access to the internet.

No one can dispute that.

It is highly likely that GPS is more related to signal transmitters on the flat earth plane than anything in the aether above our heads.
Whatever you think and claim to experience is totally different to the millions that use GPS systems.  If you are so sure it uses ground based transmitters then how do you explain receivers showing the location of transmitters in orbit?  Please provide details of some transmitter locations, including Chinese and Russian ones in the USA.

I have used a GPS receiver while flying over an ocean, again showing about 20 transmitters.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on January 29, 2020, 04:38:25 PM
Quote
What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?
Ships use gps.
So you have captained a ship using GPS in the middle of an ocean?

Could you please write more about it?
I haven't personally captained a ship (though I have a smaller boat of my own) but it's not important that I haven't. Just like how it's not important you haven't gone to Antarctica to see the 'ice wall' for yourself to believe it's a thing that exists. It's quite common knowledge I think. Here's the first article about it from a google search.

https://www.gps.gov/applications/marine/

You can also find information about gps coverage if you look hard enough.
So the extent of your personal experience with GPS is reading about the subject?

Nothing in the middle of the ocean?

Any personal use on land then?
Have you had personal experience of being incapable of using gps in the middle of an ocean as the captain of a ship? If you're asking have I been on a boat and been able to use gps then yes I have, but only around English channel and once off the coast from Western Sahara, but I have only been 'captain' of some of those in the English channel, all private boats. GPS is still used by larger ships though, ask any captain of some of those larger ships that go a bit further out to sea. I'll eat my own hat if there is some kind of conspiracy about gps. It works. Lives depend on it.
I have wrote about the the extent of my personal experience using GPS in this thread.

I didn't bring up the words "middle of the ocean."

inquisitive offered that tidbit.

I replied directly to him.

You chose to reply to me.

No one here can offer any personal experience about using GPS in the "middle of the ocean."

The entire context and purpose of using the words," middle of the ocean," is to paint a picture that GPS encompasses the mythical globe and can operate even in the most remote areas of the mythical globe.

One issue with this is the laughable idea that ships are operating willy-nilly across the Seven Seas.

Reality is, they are not.

Ships are traveling the same time worn routes they have taken for hundreds of years, with few exceptions.

My experience is this: My GPS connectivity on strictly GPS devices and my cell phone is lost when I also lose cell phone signal and access to the internet.

No one can dispute that.

It is highly likely that GPS is more related to signal transmitters on the flat earth plane than anything in the aether above our heads.
Whatever you think and claim to experience is totally different to the millions that use GPS systems.  If you are so sure it uses ground based transmitters then how do you explain receivers showing the location of transmitters in orbit?  Please provide details of some transmitter locations, including Chinese and Russian ones in the USA.

I have used a GPS receiver while flying over an ocean, again showing about 20 transmitters.
I have offered first hand experience regarding the use of strict GPS devices and Google Maps for Android devices here in this thread.

I have written about my experience with both types of devices, stating clearly that GPS devices and cellphones experience signal degradation and total signal loss in the same areas while I am using them.

These are not thoughts on the matter.

These are statements of facts about the matter.

It would seem to me you are in a better position to provide the details of the transmitter locations...

You claim right here to have seen them.

Next time you see them, take a pic and post them.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 29, 2020, 05:07:46 PM
{starting again to reduce length}

At times you be may only be in range of one cellphone base station.  For a location and altitude system you need to be in range of at least 4 transmitters.

I have poor cellphone coverage but receive from 20 GPNSS transmitters from 4 systems.  How do you explain that?

Please tell us how many transmitters your GPS receiver typically shows when you are outdoors.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 29, 2020, 07:50:45 PM
So you verified that they were satellites because "the documentation confirms it"? Meaning, that you didn't really verify it at all and just read it somewhere?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on January 29, 2020, 08:02:40 PM
So you verified that they were satellites because "the documentation confirms it"? Meaning, that you didn't really verify it at all and just read it somewhere?
How would you propose we should determine the operation of GPNSS systems?  Verified by NMEA data from receivers and published documentation.

We know they work and there is no indication that they use ground based transmitters because of receiving in valleys, centre of oceans etc.  In a similar subject can you explain how satellite tv works, you have been asked many times?

You are the person who relies on reading a book written many years ago!
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on January 29, 2020, 10:51:18 PM
So you verified that they were satellites because "the documentation confirms it"? Meaning, that you didn't really verify it at all and just read it somewhere?
Have you verified they are anything other than satellites and could you explain how you went about that?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: stack on January 30, 2020, 12:36:02 AM

I have offered first hand experience regarding the use of strict GPS devices and Google Maps for Android devices here in this thread.

I have written about my experience with both types of devices, stating clearly that GPS devices and cellphones experience signal degradation and total signal loss in the same areas while I am using them.

These are not thoughts on the matter.

These are statements of facts about the matter.

It would seem to me you are in a better position to provide the details of the transmitter locations...

You claim right here to have seen them.

Next time you see them, take a pic and post them.

A quick story: Back in 2013 my now wife was crew on a 42' sailing vessel. They sailed from San Francisco to Puerto Vallarta. Then from there, across the Pacific to Tahiti, about a 30 day crossing. She said for about 25 of those days they didn't see another vessel nor any land. From there, retracing their route, then headed north to Hawaii, then back to SF. They navigated via GPS and had a Sat phone for consulting with a land-based Weather service.

On a flat earth or round earth model, the southern Pacific is vast. They were able to navigate with modern technology amid that vast emptiness. No land-based transmitters anywhere because there is no land out there.

So maybe more likely some mid-Southern Pacific pics of GPS/Sat Phone transmitters somehow stuck out in the ocean would be more appropriate to be provided. To my knowledge, no one has ever seen one.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on February 03, 2020, 10:54:10 AM
After researching and listening carefully to each comment and reply I found something interested which is very possible in my knowledge and experience:

If there is satellites and providing each smartphone signal for GPS why they dont use direct calling service? Why we need to install signal towers in every 1 kilometer of city/town?

Then I found my answer these signal towers are only satellites those are getting our location like how far you are from tower and in which direction and these signal towers are benchmarks of any area I have attached image to clear my picture how I see things. (Ignore its funny look becoz I created in MS Paint)
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 03, 2020, 04:17:32 PM
After researching and listening carefully to each comment and reply I found something interested which is very possible in my knowledge and experience:

If there is satellites and providing each smartphone signal for GPS why they dont use direct calling service? Why we need to install signal towers in every 1 kilometer of city/town?

Then I found my answer these signal towers are only satellites those are getting our location like how far you are from tower and in which direction and these signal towers are benchmarks of any area I have attached image to clear my picture how I see things. (Ignore its funny look becoz I created in MS Paint)
Hey, would you please clarify what you are offering in this particular post?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 09, 2020, 11:37:55 AM
If there is satellites and providing each smartphone signal for GPS why they dont use direct calling service? Why we need to install signal towers in every 1 kilometer of city/town?

GPS satellites provide a relatively 'weak' 'low bandwidth' 'unidirectional' signal.
This is sufficient for positioning purposes, but not for (data intensive, bidirectional) voice or data services.
It is, of course, possible to provide data/voice via satellite (see cruise ships), but the antenna/power requirements/price simply don't fit consumer phones.
Longer distance => more power, less bandwidth, more expensive => "signal towers in every 1 kilometer" are more efficient than satellites

Then I found my answer these signal towers are only satellites those are getting our location like how far you are from tower and in which direction and these signal towers are benchmarks of any area I have attached image to clear my picture how I see things. (Ignore its funny look becoz I created in MS Paint)

You found an answer - unfortunately it is a wrong one.
GPS is independent of cell towers. GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.
These days mobile phones will draw on all available data (cell tower id, visible WLAN, GPS, ...; search for "Assisted GPS" or "Augmented GPS") to get your location. This will enhance accuracy and speed of detecting your location, but it they remain different systems/methods.
A signal tower doesn't really care, how far away you are. Your cell phone will determine which available signal tower provides the best service and use it (that's how an IMSI-Catcher works - be more "attractive" and guys will pick you over others ;-) ) - this is not about position (GPS) but signal strength/quality.

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 09, 2020, 12:26:58 PM
My commutes take place on county roads, city streets, state and US highways and Interstates.

My commutes requiring the use of Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom involve an automobile.

What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?

These days it's sometimes difficult to differentiate between different "methods", in this case "GPS" and "mobile data".
Modern devices, esp. smartphones, will draw on any available data for positioning.
As you don't go into any detail of your setup, this doesn't prove/disprove anything.

Why would your commute require "Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom", if that's what you meant?
Either one should - if used correctly - be sufficient.

My personal experience with several devices (some of them pure GPS devices) is, that they work globally - even with no data service.

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 09, 2020, 02:21:26 PM
If there is satellites and providing each smartphone signal for GPS why they dont use direct calling service? Why we need to install signal towers in every 1 kilometer of city/town?

Well, not every smartphone has a GPS sensor.

Are you asking why calls are not routed through the GPS satellites? Because A - the GPS satellites work one way. They broadcast downward to receivers on the ground or otherwise below them. They are not receivers. and B - the small amount of GPS satellites would not have the bandwidth to cope with all the calls, even if they could receive.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 10, 2020, 01:02:25 PM
You found an answer - unfortunately it is a wrong one.
GPS is independent of cell towers. GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.
I am wondering why you would deliberately post false information?

Cell phone location detection was introduced in 1996.

GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 10, 2020, 01:08:09 PM
My commutes take place on county roads, city streets, state and US highways and Interstates.

My commutes requiring the use of Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom involve an automobile.

What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?

These days it's sometimes difficult to differentiate between different "methods", in this case "GPS" and "mobile data".
Modern devices, esp. smartphones, will draw on any available data for positioning.
As you don't go into any detail of your setup, this doesn't prove/disprove anything.

Why would your commute require "Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom", if that's what you meant?
Either one should - if used correctly - be sufficient.

My personal experience with several devices (some of them pure GPS devices) is, that they work globally - even with no data service.

iC
Let me clarify.

I have used each of the services and devices at varying times.

I have had a cell phone (of one type or another) since 1999.

What I have found is the GPS and the cell phone lost signal at roughly the same time.

While correlation =/= causation, I find it highly suspect and tend to side with the idea it is indeed more likely that GPS tracking and cellular service is occurring at roughly the same altitude (i.e., the height of the average cell phone tower).
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on February 10, 2020, 04:58:35 PM
My commutes take place on county roads, city streets, state and US highways and Interstates.

My commutes requiring the use of Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom involve an automobile.

What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?

These days it's sometimes difficult to differentiate between different "methods", in this case "GPS" and "mobile data".
Modern devices, esp. smartphones, will draw on any available data for positioning.
As you don't go into any detail of your setup, this doesn't prove/disprove anything.

Why would your commute require "Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom", if that's what you meant?
Either one should - if used correctly - be sufficient.

My personal experience with several devices (some of them pure GPS devices) is, that they work globally - even with no data service.

iC
Let me clarify.

I have used each of the services and devices at varying times.

I have had a cell phone (of one type or another) since 1999.

What I have found is the GPS and the cell phone lost signal at roughly the same time.

While correlation =/= causation, I find it highly suspect and tend to side with the idea it is indeed more likely that GPS tracking and cellular service is occurring at roughly the same altitude (i.e., the height of the average cell phone tower).
How do you explain that a GPNSS receiver typically shows reception from up to 20 transmitters from US, Russia, Europe and China?

Your theory means that when the US sends a missile to another country it relies on their mobile phone network working.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 10, 2020, 07:40:45 PM
GPS is independent of cell towers. GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.
I am wondering why you would deliberately post false information?
Cell phone location detection was introduced in 1996.
GPS was commercially available until 1999.

I do apologize for creating the impression of "deliberately posting false information".
However, I fail to see any false information in my post.

Cell phone location detection in the late 1990s was network based and its infancy as suggested by your own choice of words: "introduced". It was at the time relatively inaccurate and aimed at service providers - not at end users.
AFAIK cell towers still do not provide actual positioning services for end users; i.e. as an end user does not get the raw data that would be needed to determine the mobile phone's geographical location accurately (as is the case with GPS).
Furthermore the density of cell towers (esp. in rural areas or on large bodies of water) was much lower in the 90s, resulting in non-adequate coverage (again in contrast to GPS).
=> GPS (using dedicated GPS devices) was working accurately when cell tower based positioning wasn't.

GPS Initial Operational Capability (IOC) was declared in 1993 (https://web.archive.org/web/20110126200746/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpsinfo.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20110126200746/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpsinfo.html)), i.e. it was "in place and working".
I did not claim that it was commercially available, although it was even before 1993: https://mashable.com/2014/05/25/commercial-gps-25-anniversary/ (https://mashable.com/2014/05/25/commercial-gps-25-anniversary/)
 "As a result of the government's GPS openness, this weekend we commemorate the 25th anniversary of the first consumer handheld GPS device. On May 25, 1989, the first Magellan GPS NAV 1000s were shipped to retailers."
=> GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.

Please let me know, if I've overlooked something, but it looks like my information is correct, whereas your date for commercial availability is at least 10 years late, while the date you give for cell phone location detection is significantly early.


iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 10, 2020, 08:11:28 PM
Let me clarify.

I have used each of the services and devices at varying times.

I have had a cell phone (of one type or another) since 1999.

What I have found is the GPS and the cell phone lost signal at roughly the same time.

While correlation =/= causation, I find it highly suspect and tend to side with the idea it is indeed more likely that GPS tracking and cellular service is occurring at roughly the same altitude (i.e., the height of the average cell phone tower).

I'm sorry for not being more explicit in my previous post.
"As you don't go into any detail of your setup, this doesn't prove/disprove anything." was meant to encourage you to provide more detail.

To get from correlation to causation one would e.g. need to know:

I have had a cell phone (of one type or another) since at least 1994 - so what does that fact add to the discussion?

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on February 11, 2020, 12:53:42 PM
Let me clarify.

I have used each of the services and devices at varying times.

I have had a cell phone (of one type or another) since 1999.

What I have found is the GPS and the cell phone lost signal at roughly the same time.

While correlation =/= causation, I find it highly suspect and tend to side with the idea it is indeed more likely that GPS tracking and cellular service is occurring at roughly the same altitude (i.e., the height of the average cell phone tower).

I'm sorry for not being more explicit in my previous post.
"As you don't go into any detail of your setup, this doesn't prove/disprove anything." was meant to encourage you to provide more detail.

To get from correlation to causation one would e.g. need to know:
  • Can the effect be reproduced reliably (same/other locations/tines)?
  • Can the effect be reproduced with different phones/GPS?
  • Do both devices always loose signals at the same time? Or does is it sometimes only one or the other?
  • Is the signal really lost or just "useless"? (e.g. GPS not getting enough satellites to triangulate or mobile phone getting wrong provider)
  • Where does and where doesn't it happen? => What might be possible reasons?
  • Why would that suggest the same altitude? (Average height of a cell phone tower isn't really a useful concept => on building, on hills, on mountains, ...)

I have had a cell phone (of one type or another) since at least 1994 - so what does that fact add to the discussion?

iC
It means you are saying 36,000 km far from earth satellite are suitable for telling out location but 1 km far from my location installed tower aren't? I have studied Architect Engineering and I know how to draw map for buildings and roads. Everything in map is benchmark to each other like one signal tower to other and so on. Now if you ask me I can draw map and create my own GPS for my city. I will draw map of my city and specify 1km=cm/inch (unit set). now I will mark each signal tower as benchmark and whoever getting signal from will be traced like how far he is from signal tower and in which direction.

In 2002/2003 I shocked when I saw my town location right under time on my mobile (Samsung c220) in Pakistan. And this location was definitely took from signal towers. Also if smartphones are taking location from satellite then how my Old desktop showing my location on my Google Chrome Browser? Definitely from my router. right? but my router is connected through optical fibre with my internet providers server my question is how they are tracing my location?

Only Answer came in my mind is: My IP location which benchmarks my routers location on map? Correct me if I am not wrong.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 11, 2020, 01:01:05 PM
GPS is independent of cell towers. GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.
I am wondering why you would deliberately post false information?
Cell phone location detection was introduced in 1996.
GPS was commercially available until 1999.

I do apologize for creating the impression of "deliberately posting false information".
However, I fail to see any false information in my post.

Cell phone location detection in the late 1990s was network based and its infancy as suggested by your own choice of words: "introduced". It was at the time relatively inaccurate and aimed at service providers - not at end users.
AFAIK cell towers still do not provide actual positioning services for end users; i.e. as an end user does not get the raw data that would be needed to determine the mobile phone's geographical location accurately (as is the case with GPS).
Furthermore the density of cell towers (esp. in rural areas or on large bodies of water) was much lower in the 90s, resulting in non-adequate coverage (again in contrast to GPS).
=> GPS (using dedicated GPS devices) was working accurately when cell tower based positioning wasn't.

GPS Initial Operational Capability (IOC) was declared in 1993 (https://web.archive.org/web/20110126200746/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpsinfo.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20110126200746/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/gpsinfo.html)), i.e. it was "in place and working".
I did not claim that it was commercially available, although it was even before 1993: https://mashable.com/2014/05/25/commercial-gps-25-anniversary/ (https://mashable.com/2014/05/25/commercial-gps-25-anniversary/)
 "As a result of the government's GPS openness, this weekend we commemorate the 25th anniversary of the first consumer handheld GPS device. On May 25, 1989, the first Magellan GPS NAV 1000s were shipped to retailers."
=> GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.

Please let me know, if I've overlooked something, but it looks like my information is correct, whereas your date for commercial availability is at least 10 years late, while the date you give for cell phone location detection is significantly early.


iC
It looks like your information is false still.

Again, GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 11, 2020, 01:49:20 PM
.... how my Old desktop showing my location on my Google Chrome Browser? Definitely from my router. right? but my router is connected through optical fibre with my internet providers server my question is how they are tracing my location?

Only Answer came in my mind is: My IP location which benchmarks my routers location on map? Correct me if I am not wrong.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1668304/how-does-google-calculate-my-location-on-a-desktop

If you connect to your Internet Service Provider via a landline, then your ISP knows where your landline is, where their local routers are, and where the Point Of Presence connecting to an internet "branch" is. 

This is totally different from how your mobile phone gets its location
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 11, 2020, 01:52:20 PM
It means you are saying 36,000 km far from earth satellite are suitable for telling out location but 1 km far from my location installed tower aren't? I have studied Architect Engineering and I know how to draw map for buildings and roads. Everything in map is benchmark to each other like one signal tower to other and so on. Now if you ask me I can draw map and create my own GPS for my city. I will draw map of my city and specify 1km=cm/inch (unit set). now I will mark each signal tower as benchmark and whoever getting signal from will be traced like how far he is from signal tower and in which direction.

That's all very well, but if something, like a hill, mountain or such gets between you and the towers, you're out of contact and cannot get your position.

So getting a signal from a position above you, which misses the landscape, would appear to be a better method.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 11, 2020, 01:56:36 PM
It looks like your information is false still.

Again, GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

Citation 5 - https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a26980/why-the-military-released-gps-to-the-public/

"The GPS project was started by the U.S. Department of Defense in 1973, with the first prototype spacecraft launched in 1978 and the full constellation of 24 satellites operational in 1993. Originally limited to use by the United States military, civilian use was allowed from the 1980s thanks to an executive order from President Ronald Reagan[5]. "

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-04/gps-as-we-know-it-happened-because-of-ronald-reagan
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 11, 2020, 04:50:20 PM
It looks like your information is false still.

Again, GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

Citation 5 - https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a26980/why-the-military-released-gps-to-the-public/

"The GPS project was started by the U.S. Department of Defense in 1973, with the first prototype spacecraft launched in 1978 and the full constellation of 24 satellites operational in 1993. Originally limited to use by the United States military, civilian use was allowed from the 1980s thanks to an executive order from President Ronald Reagan[5]. "

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-04/gps-as-we-know-it-happened-because-of-ronald-reagan
The law allowing was passed in the 1980's.

The technology allowing it wasn't available until 1999.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: RoundLurker on February 11, 2020, 04:55:53 PM
It looks like your information is false still.

Again, GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.

Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

Citation 5 - https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a26980/why-the-military-released-gps-to-the-public/

"The GPS project was started by the U.S. Department of Defense in 1973, with the first prototype spacecraft launched in 1978 and the full constellation of 24 satellites operational in 1993. Originally limited to use by the United States military, civilian use was allowed from the 1980s thanks to an executive order from President Ronald Reagan[5]. "

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-12-04/gps-as-we-know-it-happened-because-of-ronald-reagan
The law allowing was passed in the 1980's.

The technology allowing it wasn't available until 1999.

Admittedly Mashable isn't a great source, but "on May 25, 1989, the first Magellan GPS NAV 1000s were shipped to retailers."

https://mashable.com/2014/05/25/commercial-gps-25-anniversary/
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 11, 2020, 05:07:57 PM
The law allowing was passed in the 1980's.
The technology allowing it wasn't available until 1999.

"In 1989, Magellan Navigation Inc. unveiled its Magellan NAV 1000, the world’s first commercial handheld GPS receiver. These units initially sold for approximately US$2,900 each."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation_device#History

So, you reckon they unveiled commercial units in 1989 but didn't get the tech until 1999? How does that work?


"Magellan was the creator of the Magellan NAV 1000—the world’s first commercial handheld GPS receiver,[citation needed] which debuted in 1989"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magellan_Navigation


The NAV 1000

http://retro-gps.info/Magellan/Magellan-NAV-1000/index.html

See the picture of the rear panel - I may be wrong, but that looks like Copyright 1988 to me... and the serial no. 89501752
 - unit number 1752, made in May 1989?

Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 11, 2020, 08:02:50 PM
It means you are saying 36,000 km far from earth satellite are suitable for telling out location but 1 km far from my location installed tower aren't?
No, I'm saying that the GPS (using satellites in orbit) is better suited for global positioning than the cell phone network (using towers).
Of course cell towers can be used for locating purposes and they are, check out "Hybrid Positioning": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_positioning_system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_positioning_system)

GPS has several advantages (just some examples):
I have studied Architect Engineering and I know how to draw map for buildings and roads. Everything in map is benchmark to each other like one signal tower to other and so on.
Congratulations. I'm sure I have no talent for architecture, so when I'd need advice from that field of expertise, I'd ask experts like you.
However, this is not about drawing maps, but about electromagnetic waves, radio transmissions, signal processing, ... you don't sound knowledgeable in those areas?

Now if you ask me I can draw map and create my own GPS for my city. I will draw map of my city and specify 1km=cm/inch (unit set). now I will mark each signal tower as benchmark and whoever getting signal from will be traced like how far he is from signal tower and in which direction.
Sure, you can draw a map. You might even be able to mark all cell towers.
It will be a serious effort to correctly identify all of them and to keep that information up to date.
But load balancing mechanisms, timing issues, cell congestion, network reconfiguration, ... will constantly change performance, making your benchmarks inaccurate at best.

In 2002/2003 I shocked when I saw my town location right under time on my mobile (Samsung c220) in Pakistan. And this location was definitely took from signal towers.
Looking up the Samsung c220 I could only find one with a 2007 release date; do you have a link to your 2002/2003 version?
How do you know the location was definitely taken from signal towers?

Also if smartphones are taking location from satellite then how my Old desktop showing my location on my Google Chrome Browser?
Well if cell phones were getting their location from cell towers, how would that make any difference for your "old desktop"?

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 11, 2020, 09:05:31 PM
It looks like your information is false still.

Again, GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.

Well, I provided one (maybe not the best) of many references, confirming the information I posted is correct, while you simply keep repeating your claim.
Humor me ... where do you get your information from and how can we confirm its validity.

Regardless, I never claimed that GPS was commercially available at the time, just that it was in place and working.
GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.

The point I wanted to make is that GPS was working well before cell phone location detection through cell towers was.
"The Gulf War from 1990 to 1991 was the first conflict in which the military widely used GPS." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timeline_and_modernization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timeline_and_modernization)
Cell phone location detection was introduced in 1996.
1991 is before 1996 => The correlation you suspect between GPS and cellular network signals cannot not exist; at least not in the sense, that GPS somehow requires cell phone location detection.

Side note: How would Cell phone location detection work for US troops in the Gulf War?

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on February 12, 2020, 09:32:25 AM
My first Post! Excuse me butting in;

I think 2 things have been overlooked here by both sides of the argument. 
 
1.  Consider the first word of the term "Commercially Available": it means you have to pay for it. 
2.  What is a GPS device. 

Looking at item 1, if I can use the analogy of old-school navigation using a paper map, then the first thing you obviously need is a map.  This means that someone has to survey the terrain and its features to an acceptable degree of precision for its intended purpose.  This might be by surveyors on the ground, aerial survey, or a mixture of both.  They then have to transfer this data onto its graphic format and organise its distribution to users.  They aren't going to give this hard-earned information away; they SELL it to the consumer.  For the sake of argument, lets call the map a database.  The second thing you need is to know where you currently are on the terrain/map.  Generally, this is a given, because we all know, depending on the journey we're making, "I'm at home", "I'm in Glasgow", or "I'm at Gatwick Airport".  Thirdly, we need a sense of direction; this might be as complex as a compass and Inertial Navigation, radio beacons, sail west at 10 knots for 6 hours, or just "walk to the church and turn left on the High Street".  Whatever, we need positional information about where we are and its relationship with where we want to be. 

Looking at Item 2; what is a GPS device?  Its got 2 parts, the first part is a receiver.  It doesn't transmit anything.  I gets free-to-receive signals from Global Positioning System satellites and by analysing differentials in the signals it determines where it is on a vast featureless ball.  This is its positional information.  It does this to a high degree of accuracy, but it has no idea that it is in Wigan.  That's where the second part comes in.  Remember our database?  We need to COMMERCIALLY buy, or rent, a database.  A true GPS device includes a software database which you paid for when you bought the GPS from Halfords or PC World or had it included in the car you bought from Honda, or the plane you bought from Cessna.  You either paid for it once at the shop, or you subscribe to an update service, but its stored in the GPS device.  Depending on need, you bought/subscribed one with your country's maps, continental maps, roads, seaways or whatever.  A SMARTPHONE is NOT a GPS device.  It EMULATES a GPS device by incorporating a GPS receiver, which (remember) does not transmit.  The PHONE transmits to a terrestrial phone-mast using your cellphone-data allowance, the network verifies your entitlement because of your (commercial) monthly data package, and sends you a map of where you currently are, from a terrestrial phone-mast.  Your phone does not carry around a database of the world, but they will RENT it to you as you need it.  If you drive into the middle of the ocean, or the desert, or probably a Welsh valley you will continue to receive a GPS signal but you will lose your phone signal, you will lose your rented maps, you will lose your emulated-GPS.  The phone's space-based GPS receiver is still working, but it no longer has a terrestrially-provided map to relate to. 

Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on February 12, 2020, 06:35:20 PM
Not quite correct, but otherwise spot on.  If you buy a UK OS MAP it gives you a code to download the map to your phone or tablet.  The app shows your position on that map without an internet connection.

We should talk about GNSS, GPS is just the US system.  Galileo is the European one, China's BeiDou, GLONASS in Russia.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on February 12, 2020, 08:02:16 PM
Thanks Inquisitive; I agree with your corrections regarding terminology, and I didn't know that about the OS Maps Apps. 

Although my argument for the existence of GPS (or GNSS) might seem logical, I confess to still being on the fence.  Of course, if its NOT satellite based, the only people who would be in on the secret would be all ships captains, all airline pilots, all marine/aviation electronic engineers, all employees of GNSS equipment manufacturers, and all national so-called space program organisations (of all geo-political persuasions). 

And why do they always install an aircraft's GNSS antenna on the top of the fuselage? 
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 13, 2020, 04:53:45 PM
It looks like your information is false still.

Again, GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.

Well, I provided one (maybe not the best) of many references, confirming the information I posted is correct, while you simply keep repeating your claim.
Humor me ... where do you get your information from and how can we confirm its validity.

Regardless, I never claimed that GPS was commercially available at the time, just that it was in place and working.
GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.
That's true, you didn't write that.
The point I wanted to make is that GPS was working well before cell phone location detection through cell towers was.
"The Gulf War from 1990 to 1991 was the first conflict in which the military widely used GPS." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timeline_and_modernization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timeline_and_modernization)
Cell phone location detection was introduced in 1996.
1991 is before 1996 => The correlation you suspect between GPS and cellular network signals cannot not exist; at least not in the sense, that GPS somehow requires cell phone location detection.

Side note: How would Cell phone location detection work for US troops in the Gulf War?

iC
Well, I haven't had the pleasure of knowing many soldiers who served in the Gulf War.

So I couldn't say.

I never wrote that GPS devices like Garmin, TomTom, or Magellan, require cell phone location devices to operate.

I surmise that signal broadcasting positions are in much the same locations as cell phone towers.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: thors_evil_twin on February 13, 2020, 05:05:14 PM
Have you ever sat in one spot and watched which satellites your GPS unit is seeing? If you where to do this you will see a progression of different sets of satellites. If you where to do this for long enough you will see them show up again, and in the same order. How could that happen if they were tower based?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 13, 2020, 05:14:02 PM
I surmise that signal broadcasting positions are in much the same locations as cell phone towers.

Why do you "surmise" this, and why should we place any credence on your surmision?

If you surmise that there are different, additional towers for GPS as well as the cell towers, do you have any confirmed sightings?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on February 13, 2020, 05:15:56 PM
It looks like your information is false still.

Again, GPS wasn't commercially available until 1999.

Well, I provided one (maybe not the best) of many references, confirming the information I posted is correct, while you simply keep repeating your claim.
Humor me ... where do you get your information from and how can we confirm its validity.

Regardless, I never claimed that GPS was commercially available at the time, just that it was in place and working.
GPS has been in place and working long before cell towers were able to provide adequate positioning services for end users.
That's true, you didn't write that.
The point I wanted to make is that GPS was working well before cell phone location detection through cell towers was.
"The Gulf War from 1990 to 1991 was the first conflict in which the military widely used GPS." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timeline_and_modernization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timeline_and_modernization)
Cell phone location detection was introduced in 1996.
1991 is before 1996 => The correlation you suspect between GPS and cellular network signals cannot not exist; at least not in the sense, that GPS somehow requires cell phone location detection.

Side note: How would Cell phone location detection work for US troops in the Gulf War?

iC
Well, I haven't had the pleasure of knowing many soldiers who served in the Gulf War.

So I couldn't say.

I never wrote that GPS devices like Garmin, TomTom, or Magellan, require cell phone location devices to operate.

I surmise that signal broadcasting positions are in much the same locations as cell phone towers.
Should be easy enough for you to find details of signal broadcasting positions.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 13, 2020, 09:54:26 PM

Side note: How would Cell phone location detection work for US troops in the Gulf War?
Well, I haven't had the pleasure of knowing many soldiers who served in the Gulf War.
So I couldn't say.
While I haven't either, I have had the pleasure of talking to people who are experienced with GNSS, cell phone location detection and/or satellite communication.
So I can say: It wouldn't have worked.

Cell phone location detection is (to a large part) done on the network side, i.e. location data can easily be refused - quite likely if you don't have your own or at least a "friendly" network at your location.   
See my earlier post:
3. Being independent of ground installation (it was originally a military system - one usually neither relies on enemy cell towers nor does one get the chance to build own cell towers in enemy territory)
The same is true for any other type of signal - if you don't control the transmitter, you can be denied service.
This might change in the future, but so far (and even more so when the US set up GPS) satellites were safe in orbit.
And unlike any ground-based transmitter they can be used in hostile territory as they don't need to actually be there.
=> "Ground-based GPS" wouldn't have worked for US troops
Just as it wouldn't work for e.g. seagoing vessels, as there's simply is no ground to base anything on.  ;)

I never wrote that GPS devices like Garmin, TomTom, or Magellan, require cell phone location devices to operate.
Indeed, as far as I recall, you didn't. However, if they don't ... what would they need to operate?
The OP's question was, after all:
if there is no satellite how GPS works?

There was a lot of - logically sound - explanation how it would work with satellite based GNSS.
GNSS is well documented and the math/physics would be the same for round or flat earth.
Pick a smartphone app like GPSTest. It's open source on github, so you can verify, that it's actually doing what's it claims it's doing.
It will list and graphically display the available GNSS signals and the corresponding location.
As it's performing the calculations based on satellite positions and signal characteristics, it can only get a correct location fix if the satellites are where they are reporting to be in orbit.
It provides correct locations => satellites, not ground-based transmitters.

Still im curious ... does anyone have a sound explanation how GPS would work without satellites?
(i.e. GPS as we actually experience it, not other positioning methods)

I surmise that signal broadcasting positions are in much the same locations as cell phone towers.
Do have any more information to substantiate your conjecture?

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: somerled on February 14, 2020, 11:36:02 AM
Use of lighter than air craft and balloons . Nasa uses these , and probably others too

https://ravenaerostar.com/products/balloons-airships
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 14, 2020, 12:09:47 PM
Do have any more information to substantiate your conjecture?

iC
I acted on the information I experienced when operating these devices in my daily travels.

Did not see the need to gain more information at the time and now strictly use the cellphone for navigation.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 14, 2020, 12:16:44 PM
Use of lighter than air craft and balloons . Nasa uses these , and probably others too
https://ravenaerostar.com/products/balloons-airships

For clarity, is this "information to substantiate your conjecture", and/or "details of signal broadcasting positions" ?

Y/N?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 14, 2020, 12:34:28 PM
Do have any more information to substantiate your conjecture?

iC
I acted on the information I experienced when operating these devices in my daily travels.

Did not see the need to gain more information at the time and now strictly use the cellphone for navigation.
I can see how you would come to those conclusions based on the daily experience you described.
My conclusions based on my experience and research are different and I'll stick with the satellite version for GPS/GNSS.

In any case, I hope cellphone navigation is getting you to where you need to be, regardless of how it's actually working. ;)
Safe travels

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: TomInAustin on February 14, 2020, 07:27:01 PM
Use of lighter than air craft and balloons . Nasa uses these , and probably others too

https://ravenaerostar.com/products/balloons-airships

But you can see GPS satellites with your own eyes and no balloon can cross the night sky that fast.  Right?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 14, 2020, 08:08:26 PM
Use of lighter than air craft and balloons .
Solution to limited operating time, severe weather, wreckage, ...?
Stratosphere is roughly between 10 km /12 mi an 50 km / 31 mi  whereas GNSS satellites operate at about 20000 km / 12,550 mi.
=> The points I made concerning ground based transmitters still apply to a large extend.
Additionally a fleet of such aircraft / balloons would require - among other things frequent starts/landings and serious logistics; those could hardly go unnoticed. 

Nasa uses these , and probably others too
I would think so ... so what? NASA also uses satellites (and multiple other platforms) and surely others too, just not this way.

https://ravenaerostar.com/products/balloons-airships
There it says: "Filling the capability gap between aircraft and satellites, our stratospheric balloon platforms and airships offer critical advantages to a wide range of missions."
There are certainly application cases for such platforms. But like ground based transmitters they couldn't fake GNSS/GPS satellites .

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 17, 2020, 12:12:06 PM
But you can see GPS satellites with your own eyes and no balloon can cross the night sky that fast.  Right?
I scoured the internet for images of a GPS satellite and I found no photographs of a GPS satellite.

There is no possible way you can see a GPS satellite at a reported height of 22,000 miles above the earth.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 12:47:35 PM
But you can see GPS satellites with your own eyes and no balloon can cross the night sky that fast.  Right?
I scoured the internet for images of a GPS satellite and I found no photographs of a GPS satellite.

There is no possible way you can see a GPS satellite at a reported height of 22,000 miles above the earth.

1. Why would you expect to find one? In order to get a photo of one in orbit, one would need to fly a camera-carrying craft within camera range. I don't know if you realise it, but the safe way to operate spacecraft is to keep them away from each other, not fly them close.

Also, when you do cost/benefit on the exercise of photographing a GPS satellite, what IS the benefit?

2. You can see the reflected light from it, far beyond the range at which you can discern the object itself. The principles behind the Heliograph, wherein reflected light from a mirror can be seen far further than the mirror itself, is well known

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliograph

Here's a picture of a 2018 GPS 3 sat, at 30s and beyond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MysI2_Sbmsg
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 17, 2020, 01:25:18 PM
But you can see GPS satellites with your own eyes and no balloon can cross the night sky that fast.  Right?
I scoured the internet for images of a GPS satellite and I found no photographs of a GPS satellite.

There is no possible way you can see a GPS satellite at a reported height of 22,000 miles above the earth.

1. Why would you expect to find one? In order to get a photo of one in orbit, one would need to fly a camera-carrying craft within camera range. I don't know if you realise it, but the safe way to operate spacecraft is to keep them away from each other, not fly them close.

Also, when you do cost/benefit on the exercise of photographing a GPS satellite, what IS the benefit?

2. You can see the reflected light from it, far beyond the range at which you can discern the object itself. The principles behind the Heliograph, wherein reflected light from a mirror can be seen far further than the mirror itself, is well known

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliograph

Here's a picture of a 2018 GPS 3 sat, at 30s and beyond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MysI2_Sbmsg
If you read the post I quoted, TomInAustin makes the false claim you can see a GPS satellite in orbit.

Because the reality is you cannot see a GPS satellite in orbit.

Further, all that is available on Google when a search is performed ("images of a GPS satellite in orbit") are artist renderings.

I have no idea what your video is about or if it is even meant to address about the validity of my response to TomInAustin.

Regardless, the truth remains and that truth is you cannot see a GPS satellite in orbit while standing on the surface of the earth.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 05:43:56 PM
the reality is you cannot see a GPS satellite in orbit.

Yes, you can. Here's two examples of astrophotographers capturing a selection of geostationary satellites. All that would need to be done is point the camera at the correct area of sky for a particular GPS satellite to get a similar result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvykkEINNFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnXE6OfFslE

Further, all that is available on Google when a search is performed ("images of a GPS satellite in orbit") are artist renderings.

So what? It's nobody's fault but your own that you did a simple google search, then gave up.

I have no idea what your video is about or if it is even meant to address about the validity of my response to TomInAustin.

You asked for photos of GPS satellites without specifying the context in your request (yes, it was in the quote), so I showed you some photos. Yes, they are of satellites under construction, but again - why would anyone construct one if there was no possibility of launching and operating it?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 17, 2020, 06:42:34 PM
There is no possible way you can see a GPS satellite at a reported height of 22,000 miles above the earth.

And that is because of what proof, reference or reasoning?

Fun fact: It is true insofar as GPS satellites are orbiting at a height of approx. 12,500 miles (other GNSS have different but similar orbits), see e.g. https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/space/ (https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/space/).

However, there is an abundance of people doing exactly what you claim to be impossible, try https://www.google.com/search?q=satellite+watching (https://www.google.com/search?q=satellite+watching)
This includes satellites in geosynchronous orbit (which actually  is at approx. 22,000 miles).

You might not be able to see details of the satellites (depending on equipment, weather, ...), but you can see them.

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on February 18, 2020, 09:45:39 AM
Sorry I mentioned my previous comment wrong name of my mobile model I mentioned C220 but it was actually Samsung R220 I dont remember exact year but it was probably 2002/2003.

I still wonder few of people here on threads are keep forcing on satellite and NASA GPS theories. For them I have few questions:

How in 60s BBC Radio signals working in Pakistan?

How in late 80s and 90s My Dish receiving Indian TV channels signals in Pakistan?

These two questions are the actually answers for those people who still believing in round earth.

And just imagine if the earth is flat is this difficult to cover whole world with one satellite or is it difficult to send signals from 36,000 km far from earth by satellite?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 18, 2020, 11:19:23 AM
the reality is you cannot see a GPS satellite in orbit.

Yes, you can. Here's two examples of astrophotographers capturing a selection of geostationary satellites. All that would need to be done is point the camera at the correct area of sky for a particular GPS satellite to get a similar result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvykkEINNFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnXE6OfFslE

Further, all that is available on Google when a search is performed ("images of a GPS satellite in orbit") are artist renderings.

So what? It's nobody's fault but your own that you did a simple google search, then gave up.

I have no idea what your video is about or if it is even meant to address about the validity of my response to TomInAustin.

You asked for photos of GPS satellites without specifying the context in your request (yes, it was in the quote), so I showed you some photos. Yes, they are of satellites under construction, but again - why would anyone construct one if there was no possibility of launching and operating it?
A geostationary satellite =/= a GPS satellite.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 11:29:34 AM
A geostationary satellite =/= a GPS satellite.

Define the inequality, please.

Also, do you accept that the photographers above have actually captured photos of geostationary satellites, since you're now trying to say that they are not the same as GPS?

If you protest that A does not equal B, isn't that tacit acceptance that A and B actually exist?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 18, 2020, 12:40:25 PM
A geostationary satellite =/= a GPS satellite.

Define the inequality, please.

Also, do you accept that the photographers above have actually captured photos of geostationary satellites, since you're now trying to say that they are not the same as GPS?

If you protest that A does not equal B, isn't that tacit acceptance that A and B actually exist?
I wrote you cannot see a GPS satellite at 22k miles above the earth (it is not like I believe they are that high anyway, but that is another thread).

You posted a video of a geostationary satellite.

GPS satellites are not geostationary.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on February 18, 2020, 12:49:34 PM
Weirdly, lackey is actually right on this one. I did find this video where a dude shows GPS satellites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7AKq3MrvT0

But correct, they aren't geostationary.

And they certainly can't be seen with the naked eye.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 01:00:57 PM
A geostationary satellite =/= a GPS satellite.

Define the inequality, please.

Also, do you accept that the photographers above have actually captured photos of geostationary satellites, since you're now trying to say that they are not the same as GPS?

If you protest that A does not equal B, isn't that tacit acceptance that A and B actually exist?
I wrote you cannot see a GPS satellite at 22k miles above the earth (it is not like I believe they are that high anyway, but that is another thread).

You posted a video of a geostationary satellite.

GPS satellites are not geostationary.

OK, I accept they are not geostationary.

How can you argue they are not, whilst also claiming they do not exist? They must exist in order to have an orbital attribute, do they not?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 18, 2020, 01:16:29 PM
A geostationary satellite =/= a GPS satellite.

Define the inequality, please.

Also, do you accept that the photographers above have actually captured photos of geostationary satellites, since you're now trying to say that they are not the same as GPS?

If you protest that A does not equal B, isn't that tacit acceptance that A and B actually exist?
I wrote you cannot see a GPS satellite at 22k miles above the earth (it is not like I believe they are that high anyway, but that is another thread).

You posted a video of a geostationary satellite.

GPS satellites are not geostationary.

OK, I accept they are not geostationary.

How can you argue they are not, whilst also claiming they do not exist? They must exist in order to have an orbital attribute, do they not?
I have not denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth.

I don't believe they are what is claimed however, and I don't believe that GPS is transmitted to us from these satellites for the reasons I have stated in the thread.

ETA: added the word "not."
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 01:20:33 PM
I have denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth.

I don't believe they are what is claimed however, and I don't believe that GPS is transmitted to us from these satellites for the reasons I have stated in the thread.

... then why are you taking issue with whether or not they are geostationary? Why was your first response "they don't exist" rather than correcting me on their orbit type?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 18, 2020, 01:27:46 PM
I have not denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth.

I don't believe they are what is claimed however, and I don't believe that GPS is transmitted to us from these satellites for the reasons I have stated in the thread.

... then why are you taking issue with whether or not they are geostationary? Why was your first response "they don't exist" rather than correcting me on their orbit type?
I should have wrote, "I have NOT denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth."

I am correcting the statement in the post.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on February 20, 2020, 11:35:49 AM
I have not denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth.

I don't believe they are what is claimed however, and I don't believe that GPS is transmitted to us from these satellites for the reasons I have stated in the thread.

... then why are you taking issue with whether or not they are geostationary? Why was your first response "they don't exist" rather than correcting me on their orbit type?
I should have wrote, "I have NOT denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth."

I am correcting the statement in the post.

But I believe there is no satellite exist as if a satellite can provide signals from 36000 km accurate then a huge signal tower placed on height can be this powerful as well.

Another clue is if we are getting everything from satellites then why the whole world is connected with cables? [https://www.submarinecablemap.com/]

 
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 20, 2020, 12:15:10 PM
I have not denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth.

I don't believe they are what is claimed however, and I don't believe that GPS is transmitted to us from these satellites for the reasons I have stated in the thread.

... then why are you taking issue with whether or not they are geostationary? Why was your first response "they don't exist" rather than correcting me on their orbit type?
I should have wrote, "I have NOT denied the existence of satellites circling above the earth."

I am correcting the statement in the post.

But I believe there is no satellite exist as if a satellite can provide signals from 36000 km accurate then a huge signal tower placed on height can be this powerful as well.
I agree the signals are not coming from 36,000 km. I do not believe there is anything man-made above 300-400 km above our heads...but building a tower that tall ain't gonna happen.
Another clue is if we are getting everything from satellites then why the whole world is connected with cables? [https://www.submarinecablemap.com/]
Cables are the primary connectors for information and have been for some time.

I believe a lot of the ship communications that take place are still facilitated in this manner (buoys attached).
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 20, 2020, 01:58:25 PM
But I believe there is no satellite exist as if a satellite can provide signals from 36000 km accurate then a huge signal tower placed on height can be this powerful as well.

Actually, a signal tower could draw on a lot more power being ground based than a satellite which has to make do with whatever it can generate in orbit (e.g. by solar panels).
The main advantages of satellites are not that they are more powerful.

Another clue is if we are getting everything from satellites then why the whole world is connected with cables? [https://www.submarinecablemap.com/]

The existence of landline telephones ist not a clue that mobile phones do not exist.
We're not getting everything from satellites, they are just on means of many.
Usually, cables have much better performance, so it makes sense to use them wherever possible.
=> At home, landline (broadband) is generally better. Instead of using a 5 mile extension cord when going for a walk, a wireless connection would seem more appropriate.

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tommy23 on February 20, 2020, 02:48:38 PM
GPS satellites orbit at an altitude of 12,500 miles.  Not 22,000
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 20, 2020, 03:29:17 PM
GPS satellites orbit at an altitude of 12,500 miles.  Not 22,000
Depends on what system you choose...

The altitudes claimed range from 11,000 to 24,000 miles.

The OP referred to Pakistan and it happens that the altitude claimed for the system in India is 22,000.

That is why I introduced the figure of 22,000.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 20, 2020, 04:46:24 PM
GPS satellites orbit at an altitude of 12,500 miles.  Not 22,000
Depends on what system you choose...
Well, actually by calling it GPS the system has been chosen.
When starting to split hairs, split all ot them:  GPS is specifically the US American system. While it's often (incorrectly) used to refer to all systems, GNSS would be the general term.

The altitudes claimed range from 11,000 to 24,000 miles.
What value does the discussion about different orbits add to this discussion?
If there are no satellites used , it doesn't matter at which height they don't orbit.
If there are satellites, the difference in height is insignificant for the arguments brought forward in this thread.

The OP referred to Pakistan and it happens that the altitude claimed for the system in India is 22,000.
See above. The author asked about GPS and NASA; not about Pakistan.
The Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) is not operated by NASA and it's not even global.

That is why I introduced the figure of 22,000.
See above.
Introducing arbitrary orbits does nothing but deflect from the actual question.
can any flat earther explain if there is no satellite how GPS works?
So far I've only read some vage claims, why GPS would be suspected to not work with satellites, but no viable explanation, how it would work otherwise.
As GPS is well documented (most aspects verifiable by anyone), it very much looks like, GPS is actually satellite based.

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on February 21, 2020, 12:15:00 PM
But I believe there is no satellite exist as if a satellite can provide signals from 36000 km accurate then a huge signal tower placed on height can be this powerful as well.

Actually, a signal tower could draw on a lot more power being ground based than a satellite which has to make do with whatever it can generate in orbit (e.g. by solar panels).
The main advantages of satellites are not that they are more powerful.

Another clue is if we are getting everything from satellites then why the whole world is connected with cables? [https://www.submarinecablemap.com/]

The existence of landline telephones ist not a clue that mobile phones do not exist.
We're not getting everything from satellites, they are just on means of many.
Usually, cables have much better performance, so it makes sense to use them wherever possible.
=> At home, landline (broadband) is generally better. Instead of using a 5 mile extension cord when going for a walk, a wireless connection would seem more appropriate.

iC

These cables are main source of internet in Pakistan. Everytime internet slow down I receive messages from my internet providers that the submarine cables are damaged so internet will be remain slow till this time. It clearly shows we are getting internet through cable but other sources are claiming Pakistan own 4 Satellites then why the hell Pakistan is connected through cable with sudan egypt and then France?

And its nice to see that you are accepting that cables are more powerful than what the satellites are doing? all the videos they are making are CGI supported. in 1963-65 dont know the exact time when neil armstrong admitted that we can not see stars (because NASA dont have the CGI technology to show stars in background lol) then in Mike Massimino telling in his interview that we can see stars and galaxy and everything (because now they have the technology to proof this fake propaganda). 
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 21, 2020, 12:49:18 PM
It clearly shows we are getting internet through cable but other sources are claiming Pakistan own 4 Satellites then why the hell Pakistan is connected through cable with sudan egypt and then France?

... perhaps because the satellites don't handle your internet traffic, and perform other, different tasks?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Satellites_of_Pakistan
 

And its nice to see that you are accepting that cables are more powerful than what the satellites are doing?

Cables are probably better than satellite for you accessing this forum, but they're useless for Earth Observation and Weather, which at least a few of your Pakistani satellites appear to be tasked with...



...  dont know the exact time when neil armstrong admitted that we can not see stars (because NASA dont have the CGI technology to show stars in background lol) then in Mike Massimino telling in his interview that we can see stars and galaxy and everything (because now they have the technology to proof this fake propaganda).

Are you SURE you're not misquoting anyone ....? Absolutely sure?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 21, 2020, 01:02:58 PM
These cables are main source of internet in Pakistan. Everytime internet slow down I receive messages from my internet providers that the submarine cables are damaged so internet will be remain slow till this time. It clearly shows we are getting internet through cable but other sources are claiming Pakistan own 4 Satellites then
Why would one be in conflict with the other?
Not to long ago broadband here was only available in cities; if you needed fast internet in a rural area, the only choice was getting it by satellite.

why the hell Pakistan is connected through cable with sudan egypt and then France?
If for no other reason (there are others), it makes sense from a redundancy point of view.
Also those satellites might not (exclusively) be used for data traffic.

And its nice to see that you are accepting that cables are more powerful than what the satellites are doing?
Actually, that is not quite what I "accepted". I explicitly mentioned, that cables usually have much better performance wherever possible.
In contrast satellites my be the better choice, e.g. where

all the videos they are making are CGI supported.
No, they are not.

in 1963-65 dont know the exact time when neil armstrong admitted that we can not see stars (because NASA dont have the CGI technology to show stars in background lol) then in Mike Massimino telling in his interview that we can see stars and galaxy and everything (because now they have the technology to proof this fake propaganda).
There are quite simple and logical reasons for this; they are publicly available from and verified by various sources, so I won't repeat them here ... if u care, look it up.
Moreover, it's quite possible to manipulate photos and videos without CGI. (Movie special effects didn't wait for CGI to come around ...).
 
iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 22, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
GPS satellites orbit at an altitude of 12,500 miles.  Not 22,000
Depends on what system you choose...
Well, actually by calling it GPS the system has been chosen.
When starting to split hairs, split all ot them:  GPS is specifically the US American system. While it's often (incorrectly) used to refer to all systems, GNSS would be the general term.
So, you come to split hairs, only to conclude with a generality?

That's lovely.

I noticed the OP was offering Pakistan as a location and went with the 22,000 mile number.

The altitudes claimed range from 11,000 to 24,000 miles.
What value does the discussion about different orbits add to this discussion?
If there are no satellites used , it doesn't matter at which height they don't orbit.
If there are satellites, the difference in height is insignificant for the arguments brought forward in this thread.
I was discussing visibility with another poster.

I don't think that really bothers you, does it?

If it is not adding value, then what is all this writing I see directly above mine?
The OP referred to Pakistan and it happens that the altitude claimed for the system in India is 22,000.
See above. The author asked about GPS and NASA; not about Pakistan.
The Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) is not operated by NASA and it's not even global.
See above.

I was responding to the OP and another member.

I can offer input here just the same way as you, thank you very much.
That is why I introduced the figure of 22,000.
See above.
Introducing arbitrary orbits does nothing but deflect from the actual question.
There is nothing arbitrary about the figure of 22,000 miles for the Indian System.

That is an actual figure.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on February 22, 2020, 08:34:48 PM
GPS satellites orbit at an altitude of 12,500 miles.  Not 22,000
Depends on what system you choose...

The altitudes claimed range from 11,000 to 24,000 miles.

The OP referred to Pakistan and it happens that the altitude claimed for the system in India is 22,000.

That is why I introduced the figure of 22,000.
GNSS satellites orbit well above the Earth’s atmosphere. GPS and GLONASS satellites orbit at altitudes close to 20,000 km. BeiDou and Galileo satellites orbit a bit higher, around 21,500 km for BeiDou and 23,000 km for Galileo. GNSS orbits, which are more or less circular, and highly stable and predictable, fall into the category of MEO, for medium earth orbit.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on February 23, 2020, 12:27:07 PM
I was discussing visibility with another poster.
I don't think that really bothers you, does it?
This being a public forum, I thought joining a discussion and adding to it was the very idea of it?
Did I miss a "this is a private dialogue" flag? If so - sincere apologies.

I joined this discussion, because I'm curious how GPS could work without satellites.
Can you provide any insight on that issue?

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on February 24, 2020, 10:38:47 AM
I was discussing visibility with another poster.
I don't think that really bothers you, does it?
This being a public forum, I thought joining a discussion and adding to it was the very idea of it?
Did I miss a "this is a private dialogue" flag? If so - sincere apologies.

I joined this discussion, because I'm curious how GPS could work without satellites.
Can you provide any insight on that issue?

iC
The lack of an explanation would seem to confirm how GNSS operates, in line with the documentation.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 24, 2020, 11:45:38 AM
I was discussing visibility with another poster.
I don't think that really bothers you, does it?
This being a public forum, I thought joining a discussion and adding to it was the very idea of it?
Did I miss a "this is a private dialogue" flag? If so - sincere apologies.
I have no private discussions in the forum.

You were simply categorizing my reply to the OP and another member as somehow not contributing to the discussion which you wanted to have.

Keep having your discussion.

If you believe my contributions are not actually contributions to the topic, then you should use the "report," feature and have a moderator address it.
I joined this discussion, because I'm curious how GPS could work without satellites.
Can you provide any insight on that issue?

iC
Already did, in several spots.

Overall, I stated I believe trilateration and triangulation are at play, but not at the altitudes claimed for satellites.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: inquisitive on February 24, 2020, 02:15:50 PM
I was discussing visibility with another poster.
I don't think that really bothers you, does it?
This being a public forum, I thought joining a discussion and adding to it was the very idea of it?
Did I miss a "this is a private dialogue" flag? If so - sincere apologies.
I have no private discussions in the forum.

You were simply categorizing my reply to the OP and another member as somehow not contributing to the discussion which you wanted to have.

Keep having your discussion.

If you believe my contributions are not actually contributions to the topic, then you should use the "report," feature and have a moderator address it.
I joined this discussion, because I'm curious how GPS could work without satellites.
Can you provide any insight on that issue?

iC
Already did, in several spots.

Overall, I stated I believe transliteration and triangulation are at play, but not at the altitudes claimed for satellites.
You can believe that, but you are wrong. Clearly you have no details of an alternative explanation. 'are at play' is not enough.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on February 24, 2020, 02:26:11 PM
Transliteration - "the process of transferring a word from the alphabet of one language to another."

How does this relate to GPS?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 24, 2020, 02:34:55 PM
Transliteration - "the process of transferring a word from the alphabet of one language to another."

How does this relate to GPS?
He's obviously talking about trilateration, probably got autocorrected to oblivion. Please, try to use your brain every now and then.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 24, 2020, 04:31:52 PM
Transliteration - "the process of transferring a word from the alphabet of one language to another."

How does this relate to GPS?
Transliteration - "the process of transferring a word from the alphabet of one language to another."

How does this relate to GPS?
He's obviously talking about trilateration, probably got autocorrected to oblivion. Please, try to use your brain every now and then.
My apologies for failure to proofread prior to the post.

I did indeed mean trilateration.

Please accept my apologies.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on February 24, 2020, 04:34:37 PM
I was discussing visibility with another poster.
I don't think that really bothers you, does it?
This being a public forum, I thought joining a discussion and adding to it was the very idea of it?
Did I miss a "this is a private dialogue" flag? If so - sincere apologies.
I have no private discussions in the forum.

You were simply categorizing my reply to the OP and another member as somehow not contributing to the discussion which you wanted to have.

Keep having your discussion.

If you believe my contributions are not actually contributions to the topic, then you should use the "report," feature and have a moderator address it.
I joined this discussion, because I'm curious how GPS could work without satellites.
Can you provide any insight on that issue?

iC
Already did, in several spots.

Overall, I stated I believe transliteration and triangulation are at play, but not at the altitudes claimed for satellites.
You can believe that, but you are wrong. Clearly you have no details of an alternative explanation. 'are at play' is not enough.
"are at play," is enough for alternative explanations, especially if the suggestions have been put to use effectively in other areas.

You are right.

You clearly believe my belief is in error.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: thors_evil_twin on February 24, 2020, 04:37:25 PM
Just for clarity, in case anyone has doubt, I find it highly suspicious that both Google Maps (the system I utilize on my smartphone, which I use pretty much exclusively now) and the Garmin system (plus I used TomTom briefly) have conclusively demonstrated (at least to me in various commutes) to lose signal access to these supposed GPS satellites in the same general areas where I have no cell phone signal.

For me anyway, I think it demonstrates the idea of GPS "satellites" is total hoakum.

Please indulge me the next time you lose Cell Coverage. Turn off cell service and then open up your preferred map app. My guess is it will know where you are.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: EngineerMan on February 27, 2020, 03:24:14 AM
Just for clarity, in case anyone has doubt, I find it highly suspicious that both Google Maps (the system I utilize on my smartphone, which I use pretty much exclusively now) and the Garmin system (plus I used TomTom briefly) have conclusively demonstrated (at least to me in various commutes) to lose signal access to these supposed GPS satellites in the same general areas where I have no cell phone signal.

For me anyway, I think it demonstrates the idea of GPS "satellites" is total hoakum.
Is this indoors?  You may think that, but there is no doubt about how the various GPS systems work.  Do you have details of how you think it works, in detail.  Note that GPS works in the middle of oceans.
My commutes take place on county roads, city streets, state and US highways and Interstates.

My commutes requiring the use of Google Maps and Garmin and TomTom involve an automobile.

What personal evidence do you have that GPS works in the middle of oceans?

I have personal evidence it works in the middle of a desert without cellphone reception.  Why would it not work in the middle of the ocean then?
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: RonJ on February 27, 2020, 03:57:03 AM
I have personal experience that GPS works in the middle of the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans.  At any time I could pull out my iPhone and see a GPS position that exactly matched the positions displayed by the ship's GPS receivers on the bridge. 
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on March 03, 2020, 06:03:20 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPRJzNc876A

Watch this video guys!
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on March 03, 2020, 10:33:35 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPRJzNc876A

Watch this video guys!

The hollywood special fx is an interesting argument when we've had footage from NASA and Russia since the 60s. There are videos from skylab which would have been very hard to fake without todays CGI technology.

I'm interested to think he only thinks we went up and checked the shape of the earth in 1972. I believe the first photo from a rocket showing the shape of the earth was from the 1940s.

Amused about how he says he calmly deals with insults when he's infamous for shouting down, insulting and muting people who call into his YouTube chats.

I like the fact he says he doesn't trust the maps "they" give us. But he spent years travelling the world as a sales rep and I'd be surprised if he doesn't use GPS to get around.

And I don't agree the shape of the earth is important. I mean, truth is important generally so in that sense it is but actually would it change my day to day life? Not really.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on March 03, 2020, 11:02:51 AM
VID

Watch this video guys!

Why? Please tell us what there is of any quality within it...
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: wajeehleo on March 03, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
VID

Watch this video guys!

Why? Please tell us what there is of any quality within it...

So you will decide what quality and what not to the standard? Yes you can asked for information when you guys keep saying that we can use GPS in middle of the sea so I shared authentic information by a traveler who traveled around the world and still thinks that earth is flat. 
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on March 03, 2020, 01:14:56 PM
I shared authentic information by a traveler who traveled around the world and still thinks that earth is flat.

It's contradictory within the space of five minutes. In the fifth minute, he contradicts what he said in the first.

He travelled as a PASSENGER, he did not navigate himself around the world.....
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: AATW on March 03, 2020, 01:36:48 PM
I shared authentic information by a traveler who traveled around the world and still thinks that earth is flat.

It's contradictory within the space of five minutes. In the fifth minute, he contradicts what he said in the first.

He travelled as a PASSENGER, he did not navigate himself around the world.....
There's also some debate whether he's really a flat earther or is just doing it for the clicks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI-aC8upMx8

The arguments he presents are so idiotic it does make you wonder whether he's just trying to make FE people look stupid or is just trying to make money.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Tumeni on March 03, 2020, 01:56:07 PM
Here's the YT transcript of what he said

based on what they're showing us it seems very fake when we're being presented with things like the moon landing footage and
you've only got to look at it with a critical eye to see that it's done on a set

No evidence or proof offered, only claim

in my last career I was traveling around the world as an international sales rep and as I traveled around the world what I
observed on almost every flight was the same thing which was lots of people staring at the back of their head rests
and observing the latest movie drinking booze falling asleep whereas I would actually be at the back of the plane
looking at the emergency exit window which had the widest viewing angle and observing the flat plane below

Just an anecdote.

that being the case when I came across a "math powerland" video on YouTube and he uttered the words flatter not in ridicule but in the same context as we are talking about today he immediately was a Eureka moment I mean I literally went and woke my wife
up and told her that the earth was flat

Again, just an anecdote

well NASA were developed for the sole purpose of lying to us

Not proven

their only purpose is to perpetuate the globe lie

Not so. The first A in NASA stands for AERONAUTICS

every single story that is told by NASA has the sub context ...

NASA are not the only space agency in the world.

the Illuminati um I don't know a great deal about the Illuminati

Why talk about it, then?

I think the reason we get these insults is because we are pre-programmed from birth
to ridicule the idea of Flat Earth we're told that it's a notion of Philistines it's something that we have progressed beyond
so I tend to not overreact to people who are insulting to me about the subject and try and ask them to either if they're very
combative prove what they believe which is the globe or ask them to research Flat Earth

Nothing of substance in this

well I've never been to the ends of the earth so it's a difficult one to give you an answer is the moon fake news no
but does the moon have fake news surrounding it yes absolutely of all of the celestial bodies it's the one that
would most indicate surface ferocity right word being spherical and therefore it's used by people like NASA to prop up
the notion that we are live living on aids s fear also so it's used to perpetuate fake news

Nothing of substance

do I get ridiculed now no

Yes, he does

doesn't seem to be the case a couple years on it's more like this people actually wanting
to know more information about the subject to doing a be research themselves so I think it seems things have progressed

Yet he still gets barely a few hundred views, worldwide, for his daily FE debates....
 
I don't have an actual explanation for how the seasons work I don't know what the Sun is same technically goes for the moon I don't
know what the moon is

Why talk about them, then?

and further that I don't trust any of the maps that they give us absolutely it is fundamental to
state of being is fundamental to our existence if we said they are right the perpetrators of the life you like are
correct then we are absolutely and totally insignificant we are a speck of dust in a soup of nothing expanding into
a massive infinite space of nothingness whereas the converse is that we are in an enclosed system therefore we're it

Nothing of substance
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: iCare on March 03, 2020, 05:48:13 PM
Watch this video guys!
I did it ... I actually endured 5 min of some bloke - a travelling salesman none the less - proudly telling everyone, that he can't really explain, prove or even guess how anything about a flat earth could work.

Closing statement: If the earth were round, we (he?) would be insignificant - so it needs to be flat, so "we're it".

To me it would seem quite the other way round.
Being "bottled up" in an enclosed system would make us insignificant, if only by precluding any chance of "going beyond" in any way.

It's actually quite ironic.
Conspiracy theories claim that RE is (amongst other things) a lie to keep people under control and "within their limits" (i.e. keeping the south pole off limits), when it actually encourages crossing borders and "going beyond", both physically and mentally.
On the other hand, the FE idea does limit people physically (wall, dome, ...) and mentally (there is nothing to go to anyway).

wajeehleo, what was your point in linking this video?

iC
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: TomInAustin on March 03, 2020, 06:18:45 PM
There is no doubt how GPS works
TL is suggesting the opposite.
Not clear if he saying he just loses internet access.  GPS receiver will show satellites being received from, he needs to check that.  Not just NASA claiming number of satellites, other systems used.

Have you verified that they are satellites?



I don't know about him but I have verified they are satellites, I can see them pass overhead any clear night.  I have an old Garmin that tells me what sats I am connected to and I can see them pass over and then when they go over the horizon the signal drops. Anyone can track sats with cheap apps that point them out.  It's easy if you open your mind and your eyes Tom.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: TomInAustin on March 03, 2020, 06:28:50 PM
I have offered first hand experience regarding the use of strict GPS devices and Google Maps for Android devices here in this thread.

I have written about my experience with both types of devices, stating clearly that GPS devices and cellphones experience signal degradation and total signal loss in the same areas while I am using them.

These are not thoughts on the matter.

These are statements of facts about the matter.

It would seem to me you are in a better position to provide the details of the transmitter locations...

You claim right here to have seen them.

Next time you see them, take a pic and post them.

Your anecdotal evidence aside, I have never lost GPS signal if the sky is clear ala not under an overpass and I have never heard of a single person ever losing GPS signal.   

I have used GPS in the ocean where there was no cell signal.   Maybe not the middle of the ocean but very far out.   Between Galveston Tx and Cozumel Mexico, there are a few spots with cell signals when you are in sight of the oil rigs but only then, yet GPS works the whole way from dock to dock.

Plus I can see the satellites pass over but I did not see any towers.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: TomInAustin on March 03, 2020, 06:40:24 PM
But you can see GPS satellites with your own eyes and no balloon can cross the night sky that fast.  Right?
I scoured the internet for images of a GPS satellite and I found no photographs of a GPS satellite.

There is no possible way you can see a GPS satellite at a reported height of 22,000 miles above the earth.

1. Why would you expect to find one? In order to get a photo of one in orbit, one would need to fly a camera-carrying craft within camera range. I don't know if you realise it, but the safe way to operate spacecraft is to keep them away from each other, not fly them close.

Also, when you do cost/benefit on the exercise of photographing a GPS satellite, what IS the benefit?

2. You can see the reflected light from it, far beyond the range at which you can discern the object itself. The principles behind the Heliograph, wherein reflected light from a mirror can be seen far further than the mirror itself, is well known

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliograph

Here's a picture of a 2018 GPS 3 sat, at 30s and beyond

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MysI2_Sbmsg
If you read the post I quoted, TomInAustin makes the false claim you can see a GPS satellite in orbit.

Because the reality is you cannot see a GPS satellite in orbit.

Further, all that is available on Google when a search is performed ("images of a GPS satellite in orbit") are artist renderings.

I have no idea what your video is about or if it is even meant to address about the validity of my response to TomInAustin.

Regardless, the truth remains and that truth is you cannot see a GPS satellite in orbit while standing on the surface of the earth.

So you have never seen a satellite cross the night sky?  In the exact position that it is supposed to be? 

I have checked the sats I was connected to, looked them up in Starwalk that points to the location and wow, there is a bright light crossing the sky.

ISS is the easiest to spot since it is the biggest and has the most surface area. 



Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: totallackey on March 05, 2020, 01:11:30 PM
So you have never seen a satellite cross the night sky?  In the exact position that it is supposed to be?
I don't know about exact position, but yes I have seen a satellite cross the sky.
I have checked the sats I was connected to, looked them up in Starwalk that points to the location and wow, there is a bright light crossing the sky.

ISS is the easiest to spot since it is the biggest and has the most surface area.
I agree on the ISS.

I disagree with the claim you made on GPS sats being visible.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: Francis on March 21, 2020, 10:31:14 AM
Being currently confined to my home due to COVID19 (I live in France), I had time to watch this video in its entirety. I'll sum it up for people who are not so constrained and have other things to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JDEZbl-3mM

The main gist of the video is by someone reading a document written by some Australian who worked for the one of the American intelligence departments. There's about 10 minute describing his resume, it appears he has very high clearance to top-secret intelligence. Then comes the bombshell.

He was working on geographic positioning, and he was wondering why, instead of relying entirely on satellite data, the agency he was in also used ground-based data. This is supposedly more accurate. And his boss told him - wait for it - to mind his own business, that it was outside his domain! I mean wow! If that doesn't prove to you that the world is flat, then what will!

After that he goes on to say he was suffering from all sorts of psycho disorders, possibly induced by interrogation training (i.e. learning to resist torture). He suffers from blackouts, and relational disorders. Somewhat reminiscent of the character played by Robert de Niro in the Meet the Fockers movies.

The rest of the video is about how he was invited to a masonic lodge and met important people there. This allowed him to fast-track his getting a US green card and a job in an Arctic base. If there was any connection with the flatness or roundness of the earth, I failed to detect it.
Title: Re: How GPS Works and what about 64 satellites claimed by NASA
Post by: GreatATuin on March 21, 2020, 05:20:18 PM
So you have never seen a satellite cross the night sky?  In the exact position that it is supposed to be?
I don't know about exact position, but yes I have seen a satellite cross the sky.

In case you're interested: https://www.heavens-above.com/ will give you a list of satellites you can see in the sky for any date and any given location, including the ISS. You'll know the exact time and position in the sky.