Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2018, 03:39:16 PM »
Dimensional analysis would really help here.

When multiplying or dividing quantities with units, keep the units in the equation to see what you end up with.

For example, the units of speed are distance/time, for example km/h or miles/h or meters/second. If you do math and you end up with meters^2/second or meters/dollar or something, you didn't calculate a speed.

Let me look at Napkin #5 to illustate this:

Quote
Premise:

     - A Solar Day happens every 24 hours
     - A Year happens every 365 days

365 days / 2 = 185.5 days in six months

Now, we need to fit 24 into 185.5

185.5 days divided by 24 = 7.729

Conclusion: 24 does not fit cleanly into 185.5. If it did, it would be a whole number.

Conclusion: The day does not fit neatly into half of the year. Solar Noon will not be at the same place at that point.

Let me rephrase that with units.

Premise:

     - A Solar Day happens every 24 hours. 1 solar day = 24 hours.  To get a unitless 1, which is always legal to multiply by, take the ratio. 1 = 1 solar day/24 hours
     - A Year happens every 365 days 1 year = 365 days. To get a unitless 1, 1 = 365 days / 1 year

365 days / 2 = 185.5 days in six months
0.5 years is what you're looking for, so you can take 0.5 years * 365 days/year. Years cancel, and you get 185.5 days.

THIS CALCULATION IS CORRECT


Now, we need to fit 24 into 185.5

185.5 days divided by 24 = 7.729

185.5 days / (24 hours/day) = 7.729 days^2/hour
THIS CALCULATION IS MEANINGLESS - your units don't make any sense.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2018, 03:45:46 PM »
There is a rule in division that the larger group on the left side needs to be a bigger number than the smaller group on the right side for this to work.

Which 'rule' is that?

7 / 24 = 0.29166  < --- This is not a valid equation for the purpose

No sh*t. The whole point of me quoting it to you is that it doesn't mean anything.... you appear to agree

If we change that around to "  Day - 3 hours. Does a 3 hour day fit into a 6 day week?"
 
6 / 3 = 2. Whole Number. Works.

Six days, if each day is three hours, is a total of (6*3) 18 hours.

That's six separate sets of three hours. A total of 18 hours. Divide the total 18 hours by 6, and you get the length of a day. 3 hours.
Divide the total number of days by 3, and all you get three sets of 2 days.
You've calculated that one-third of a week of six days is two days.

Again, you're dividing Days by Hours to get something meaningless. 


Does a 3 hour day fit into a 7 day week?

7 / 3 = 2.33. Not a whole number. A 3 hour day does not fit neatly into a week that is 7 days long. The earth has not finished rotating by the time it reaches that point.

Again, you've calculated that one-third of a 7-day week is 2.33 days.

7 days of 3 hours each is 21 hours. Divide 21 by 7 and you get the length of one day. Divide 21 by 3 and you get 7 days of three hours each.

Dividing 7 by 3 gives you one-third of seven.

Likewise, dividing any number of days by 24 gives you an answer equal to one twenty-fourth of the total number of days.
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Offline AATW

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2018, 03:54:49 PM »
days in a year x hours in a day = number of hours in a year

so

number of hours in a year / hours in a day = days in a year

That sort of calculation yields a result which means something.


days in a year / hours in a day = a random number

Especially given the fact that the second of those numbers is a fairly arbitrary definition which apparently comes from the ancient Egyptians

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/11/15/3364432.htm
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2018, 04:40:51 PM »
Not a random number.

The result isn't a "random number". The result is a ratio of how many times the second number fits into the first number.

Premise: We have a pie with really big slices. We have a Pie that is giant slice that takes up 50% of a possible 100%.

If we divide those, the equation 100 / 50 = 2.

Conclusion: Two is not a "random number". 50 fits into 100 two times perfectly. The pie can be filled with two of those equally sized slices.

--- --- ---

Premise: We have a pie with really big slices. We have a Pie that is giant slice that takes up 30% of a possible 100%.

If the pie is 30% filled, the equation is 100 / 30 = 3.333...

Conclusion: 3.333... means that 30% fills pie 3.333... times.

Conclusion: Since 3.333... times isn't a whole number, 30% isn't an even ratio if 100%

Conclusion: 30% does not work. The pie slice would actually need to fill the pie by 33.333...% to fit into the pie in equal slices.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 04:48:23 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2018, 04:55:40 PM »
Not a random number.

The result isn't a "random number". The result is a ratio of how many times the second number fits into the first number.

Premise: We have a pie with really big slices.

We have a Pie that is 50% filled of a possible 100%.

If we divide those, the equation 100 / 50 = 2.

Conclusion: Two is not a "random number". 50 fits into 100 two times perfectly. The pie can be filled with two of those equally sized slices.

If the pie is 30% filled, the equation is 100 / 30 = 3.333...

Conclusion: 3.3333 means that 30 fills 100 3.333... times.

Conclusion: Since 3.333 times isn't a whole number, 30% isn't an even ratio if 100%

Conclusion: The pie would need to be 33.333...% filled to fit into the 100% pie in equal slices. 30% does not work.
Great job Tom. Do you at last understand why a year is 365.24 days and not just 365 days if nothing else?

As for 'not a random number' you are correct. However it is a meaningless number in this circumstance. It tells you nothing of value. Even if we assume there were 365 days in a year exactly, what do we get when we divide that by 24? Our answer of 15.2 is equally meaningless.

Let's try another.

1 day is 24 hours.
1 hour is 60 minutes.
60/24 = 2.5

Huh, guess minutes don't fit equally into a day either. It's like our whole time system and the concept of it is made up to fit some arbitrary duration.... oh wait.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2018, 05:00:51 PM »
Continuing my last scenario:

1 Slice = 1 Day

Each Slice is divided into 24 smaller slices (lets call them MiniSlices)

We know that 1 Slice goes, allegedly, into a pie 365.24 times (Year)

We can do 365.24 / 1 to see if that works. The result is 365.24. Not a whole number. 1 Slice cannot fit a pie evenly.

-------------

We can also get rid of the concept of the single slice entirely and just focus on the MiniSlices.

We have 24 MiniSlices in the pie of equal length. Will they fit into the pie?

365.24 / 24 = 15.21. The answer is No. They will not fit.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:13:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2018, 05:02:50 PM »
Not a random number. The result isn't a "random number". The result is a ratio of how many times the second number fits into the first number.

Again, you're deriving a meaningless ratio from two separate, distinct units. First unit is days, second is hours.

365 divided by 24 = 15.2083
One twenty-fourth of 365 is 15.2083

But you have 365 or 365.24 days, and each of those days is 24 hours, so you have 365 or 365.24 sets of 24. Dividing 365 or 365.24 by 24 merely tells you that one twenty-fourth of 365 or 365.24 is 15.2083 or 15.2183 of those sets.

You appear to be trying to convince yourself with this that 365.24 days is not a whole number of days. But we know that.

365 days is a whole number of days. The clue that 365.24 days is not a whole number is that it has 0.24 in it.   
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2018, 05:09:06 PM »
Continuing my last scenario:

1 Slice = 1 Day

Each Slice is divided into 24 smaller slices (lets call them MiniSlices)

We know that 1 Slice goes, allegedly, a pie 365.24 times (Year)

We can do 365.24 / 1 to see if that works. The result is 365.24. Not a whole number. 1 Slice cannot fit a pie evenly.

-------------

We can also get rid of the concept of the single slice entirely and just focus on the MiniSlices.

We have 24 MiniSlices in the pie of equal length. Will they fit a pie that has 365.24 slots?

365.24 / 24 = 15.21. The answer is No. They will not fit.
Which proves...what exactly? Also your second idea doesn't work anyway. Again, even if we had an exactly even 365 days in a year, you would get an integer with a remainder. Despite 1 day fitting evenly into 365.

You're not proving anything here. You're showing 1 orbit =/= an even number of days. Which is already well known and understood. Hence leap year to keep the calendar approx. correct.

So what exactly do you think this is showing? Other than the fact you either don't understand basic math, don't understand the difference between an orbital period and a rotational period, or don't understand those two have no need to be related in any fashion. You started out wondering how the sun is always up at noon throughout the year (which I felt was shown rather well) and have moved on to...what exactly?

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2018, 05:14:44 PM »
1 Slice = 1 Day
Each Slice is divided into 24 smaller slices (lets call them MiniSlices)

We know that 1 Slice goes, allegedly, a pie 365.24 times (Year)

So you have 365.24 sets of 24 minislices

We can do 365.24 / 1 to see if that works. The result is 365.24. Not a whole number. 1 Slice cannot fit a pie evenly.

-------------

We can also get rid of the concept of the single slice entirely and just focus on the MiniSlices.

We have 24 MiniSlices in the pie of equal length. Will they fit into the pie?

You have space for 365.24 sets of 24 minislices, not 24 minislices

365.24 / 24 = 15.21. The answer is No. They will not fit.

Now all you've done is divide the space up differently.

First, you divided it into 365.24 sets of 24 minislices. You've divided it into 8765.76 minislices.

Now you've divided it up into 24 equal parts. 15.21 'units' is one twenty-fourth of your available space, which you said was 365.24. This is unrelated to any part of your slices or minislices.   
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2018, 05:18:15 PM »
The problem you seem to have with the above account with the MiniSlices example, is why am I using the 365.24 / 24 at the end? Years and hours?

Well, that is the same ratio as if we multiplied both of the numbers by 24 and found the lowest common denominator.

1 Slice = 24 Minislices

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76 hours in the year
24 x 24 = 576 hours in 24 days (24 days picked because we need equivalence to the ratio)

A ratio of 8765.76 / 576 is equivalent to 365.24 / 24.

8765.76 / 576 = 15.21

365.24 / 24 = 15.21

Equivelent
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 05:42:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2018, 05:23:13 PM »
The problem one might have with the above account with the MiniSlices, is why am I using the 365.24 / 24 at the end?

Well, that is the same ratio as if we multiplies both of those numbers by 24 and found the lowest common denominator.



1 Slice = 24 Minislices

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76
24 x 24 = 576

A ratio of 8765.76 / 576 is equivalent to 365.24 / 24.


8765.76 / 576 = 15.21

365.24 / 24 = 15.21
Tom, do you need to go lie down for a bit? You're honestly just spouting nonsense that's unrelated to any of the issues people are bringing up, and you still have yet to explain what you're attempting to prove/show here in any way. Your numbers are meaningless in context, and multiplying everything by 24 (or any number) doesn't show or solve anything.

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2018, 05:34:32 PM »

The result is 365.24. Not a whole number. 1 Slice cannot fit a pie evenly.

Seriously what?? You are aware that non whole numbers are just as valid as whole numbers yes? Have you ever split the last slice of pizza in half? In your pie example so what if the slices don't fit exactly as whole numbers?!
This is completely irrelevant to the two separate factors of how long a day and year are.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #92 on: April 23, 2018, 05:35:33 PM »
The problem one might have with the above account with the MiniSlices, is why am I using the 365.24 / 24 at the end?

Well, that is the same ratio as if we multiplies both of those numbers by 24 and found the lowest common denominator.



1 Slice = 24 Minislices

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76
24 x 24 = 576

A ratio of 8765.76 / 576 is equivalent to 365.24 / 24.


8765.76 / 576 = 15.21

365.24 / 24 = 15.21
Tom, do you need to go lie down for a bit? You're honestly just spouting nonsense that's unrelated to any of the issues people are bringing up, and you still have yet to explain what you're attempting to prove/show here in any way. Your numbers are meaningless in context, and multiplying everything by 24 (or any number) doesn't show or solve anything.

This is simple math.

A grouping of Twenty Four 24 hour days has 576 hours.

24 x 24 = 576

A year has 8765.76 hours in it.

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76

The ratio is 8765.76 hours / 576 hours

I am no longer using the year / day calculation.

Can we see if a grouping of Tewenty Four 24 hour days (576 hours) fits into a year that is 8765.76 hours long?

8765.76 hours / 576 hours = 15.21. No. It does not fit.

This is the same ratio as 365.24 / 24, and gives the same answer.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 05:40:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2018, 05:38:19 PM »
The problem you seem to have with the above account with the MiniSlices example, is why am I using the 365.24 / 24 at the end? Years and hours?

Well, that is the same ratio as if we multiplies both of the numbers by 24 and found the lowest common denominator.

1 Slice = 24 Minislices

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76 hours in the year
24 x 24 = 576 hours in 24 days (24 days picked because we need equivalence to the ratio)

A ratio of 8765.76 / 576 is equivalent to 365.24 / 24.

8765.76 / 576 = 15.21

365.24 / 24 = 15.21

Equivelent

So are you saying that you believe the number of times the planet spins on its axis should fit into a single orbit the planet takes around the sun nice and neatly?

If so, then why do you feel this should be the case?

I genuinely don't get it.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2018, 05:49:01 PM »
The problem one might have with the above account with the MiniSlices, is why am I using the 365.24 / 24 at the end?

Well, that is the same ratio as if we multiplies both of those numbers by 24 and found the lowest common denominator.



1 Slice = 24 Minislices

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76
24 x 24 = 576

A ratio of 8765.76 / 576 is equivalent to 365.24 / 24.


8765.76 / 576 = 15.21

365.24 / 24 = 15.21
Tom, do you need to go lie down for a bit? You're honestly just spouting nonsense that's unrelated to any of the issues people are bringing up, and you still have yet to explain what you're attempting to prove/show here in any way. Your numbers are meaningless in context, and multiplying everything by 24 (or any number) doesn't show or solve anything.

This is simple math.

A grouping of Twenty Four 24 hour days has 576 hours.

24 x 24 = 576

A year has 8765.76 hours in it.

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76

The ratio is 8765.76 hours / 576 hours

I am no longer using the year / day calculation.

Can we see if a grouping of Tewenty Four 24 hour days (576 hours) fits into a year that is 8765.76 hours long?

8765.76 hours / 576 hours = 15.21. No. It does not fit.

This is the same ratio as 365.24 / 24, and gives the same answer.
What are you trying to prove here Tom? That there isn't a whole number of days in one orbital year/period? We know this, hence leap year. That this somehow invalidates...something? How? Why? What? Why can't the rate of rotation NOT be an even ratio to the rate of orbit? What prevents this?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2018, 05:50:57 PM »
So are you saying that you believe the number of times the planet spins on its axis should fit into a single orbit the planet takes around the sun nice and neatly?

If so, then why do you feel this should be the case?

I genuinely don't get it.

Look into definitions of Solar Time and Solar Year and Solar Day. We have quoted them in this thread.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_year --

Quote
A tropical year (also known as a solar year) is the time that the Sun takes to return to the same position in the cycle of seasons, as seen from Earth; for example, the time from vernal equinox to vernal equinox, or from summer solstice to summer solstice.

We looked at the real numbers earlier in this thread.

The rest of this thread seems to be just clarification about how division and ratios work, to check if the math of dividing years by days was correct.

What are you trying to prove here Tom? That there isn't a whole number of days in one orbital year/period? We know this, hence leap year. That this somehow invalidates...something? How? Why? What? Why can't the rate of rotation NOT be an even ratio to the rate of orbit? What prevents this?

Look up the definition of a Solar Year. The sun needs to return to its same position. Solar Noon needs to be the same after a Solar Year.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 05:59:01 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2018, 06:03:34 PM »
So are you saying that you believe the number of times the planet spins on its axis should fit into a single orbit the planet takes around the sun nice and neatly?

If so, then why do you feel this should be the case?

I genuinely don't get it.

Look into definitions of Solar Time and Solar Year and Solar Day. We have quoted them in this thread.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_year --

Quote
A tropical year (also known as a solar year) is the time that the Sun takes to return to the same position in the cycle of seasons, as seen from Earth; for example, the time from vernal equinox to vernal equinox, or from summer solstice to summer solstice.

We looked at the real numbers earlier in this thread.

The rest of this thread seems to be just clarification about how division and ratios work, to check if the math of dividing years by days was correct.

What are you trying to prove here Tom? That there isn't a whole number of days in one orbital year/period? We know this, hence leap year. That this somehow invalidates...something? How? Why? What? Why can't the rate of rotation NOT be an even ratio to the rate of orbit? What prevents this?

Look up the definition of a Solar Year. The sun needs to return to its same position. Solar Noon needs to be the same after a Solar Year.


Surely the point is that the sun is in the same position, but the earth is at a different rotation because the earths rotation is not linked to its orbit.

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #97 on: April 23, 2018, 06:10:36 PM »
This is simple math.

This is condescension

A grouping of Twenty Four 24 hour days has 576 hours.
24 x 24 = 576
A year has 8765.76 hours in it.
365.24 x 24 = 8765.76
The ratio is 8765.76 hours / 576 hours

What ratio? All you've done is divide the number of hours in a year by the number of hours in 24 days. Why would you do this?

Can we see if a grouping of Twenty Four 24 hour days (576 hours) fits into a year that is 8765.76 hours long?
8765.76 hours / 576 hours = 15.21. No. It does not fit.

So what? What does that prove?

This is the same ratio as 365.24 / 24, and gives the same answer.

Again, all you're doing with this calculation is deriving one twenty-fourth of a year. You're not deriving any 'ratio' between anything that needs to be ratioed. You're calculating that 1/24th of a year is 15.21 days.
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #98 on: April 23, 2018, 06:23:51 PM »
This is simple math
It is simple, it's just a bit meaningless and doesn't demonstrate anything useful.

So you have a pie with 365 slices (let's just go with 365, for simplicity).
That year pie can be divided into 365 day-length slices.
And each of those slices can be divided into 24 hour mini-slices.

That means our pie has 365 x 24 = 8760 hour mini-slices.

But dividing the number 365 by the number 24 does not give you any meaningful result.
Multiplying them does because each of the 365 slices has 24 mini slices, so multiplying them gives you the total number of mini-slices in the pie.
But dividing them doesn't give you anything useful.

All it tells you is if you divided the whole pie into 24 slices, instead of 365, then in order to get 365 slices you'd have to divide each of the 24 slices into 15.2083333... slices. Meaningless. (If you want to try this at home you'd actually split 23 of the slices into 15 and the 24th into 20).
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #99 on: April 23, 2018, 06:29:56 PM »
The rest of this thread seems to be just clarification about how division and ratios work, to check if the math of dividing years by days was correct.

... but you didn't divide years by days.

You've persistently divided 365.24 by 24  (days by hours) to arrive at a number of days that represents one twenty-fourth of a year (15.21).

We already know that a day of 24 hours doesn't fit exactly into a year of 365.24 days. The clue is in the 0.24. Otherwise the year  would be 365 days (365 sets of 24 hours), an exact number. Dividing this by 24 still gives one twenty-fourth of a year. This is why we have leap years. 
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