Shape of daylight on a disc
« on: January 12, 2015, 08:03:20 PM »
You Flat earth window lickers are my favorite brand of window licker. The old forum is certainly not the same without the hard core flatists. Now that my ad hominem is out of the way I'll get on to my question.

My question: What is the mechanism or explanation for how sunlight reaches the ground in the shape required to reflect what is observed?

This is not a question about sun rises or eclipses or any of that other stuff. This is about the actual shape of light reaching the ground. Meaning if you were to look at the disk from above (and were able to see the surface out to the ice wall/ring/whatever ) you would see an illuminated area the would roughly look like a "D". what is the mechanism to create that illuminated patch?

Honestly I think I know the FE answers to my questions but there seems to be a legitimate effort to do a re-model on the FE holy texts that I figured I give you a chance to address some questions in the level of detail that you aspire to. I'll make a new thread for each specific question once the previous one has run it's course.  Also if this is in the wrong place please move it, thanks!

Thork

Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 08:15:26 PM »
If you need to get back to the old site, don't let us keep you.

Tom answered your question only yesterday.
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2241.msg56597#msg56597
Be my guest and reply to him.

On this site we have a super fast forum and a search function that works really well. Feel free to enjoy both.

Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 09:00:23 PM »
If you need to get back to the old site, don't let us keep you.

Tom answered your question only yesterday.
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2241.msg56597#msg56597
Be my guest and reply to him.

On this site we have a super fast forum and a search function that works really well. Feel free to enjoy both.

Yeah I read his response and read through that thread. He did not answer the question. Would you care too?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 09:53:03 PM »
What makes you think it looks like a "D"?

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 10:09:16 PM »
What makes you think it looks like a "D"?
Consider reality.

On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth. The edges of the spotlight would have to be rim (the curve of the 'D') and a straight line from edge through the NP to the edge on the opposite side (the straight line of the 'D').
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 10:33:10 PM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2015, 10:41:35 PM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?
Why would you require proof, especially from a single scientist's study? Did you hold Rowbotham to the same level of evidence?
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2015, 10:47:22 PM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?
Why would you require proof, especially from a single scientist's study? Did you hold Rowbotham to the same level of evidence?

I expected that RE'ers had some level of evidence behind their facts. Published studies, that sort of thing.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2015, 11:35:56 PM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?
Why would you require proof, especially from a single scientist's study? Did you hold Rowbotham to the same level of evidence?

I expected that RE'ers had some level of evidence behind their facts. Published studies, that sort of thing.
I assume Google searches work for you.

From Wikipedia article on Equinox:

References
1 United States Naval Observatory (2010-06-10). "Earth's Seasons: Equinoxes, Solstices, Perihelion, and Aphelion, 2000-2020".
2 Owens, Steve (20 March 2010). "Equinox, Equilux, and Twilight Times". Dark Sky Diary (blog). Retrieved 31 December 2010.
3 Montenbruck, Oliver; Pfleger, Thomas. Astronomy on the Personal Computer. Springer-Verlag. p. 17. ISBN 0-387-57700-9.
4 Meeus; Mathematical Astronomical Morsels; ISBN 0-943396-51-4
5 PIA11667: The Rite of Spring". Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology. Retrieved 21 March 2014.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 12:35:01 AM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?
Why would you require proof, especially from a single scientist's study? Did you hold Rowbotham to the same level of evidence?

I expected that RE'ers had some level of evidence behind their facts. Published studies, that sort of thing.
I assume Google searches work for you.

From Wikipedia article on Equinox:

References
1 United States Naval Observatory (2010-06-10). "Earth's Seasons: Equinoxes, Solstices, Perihelion, and Aphelion, 2000-2020".
2 Owens, Steve (20 March 2010). "Equinox, Equilux, and Twilight Times". Dark Sky Diary (blog). Retrieved 31 December 2010.
3 Montenbruck, Oliver; Pfleger, Thomas. Astronomy on the Personal Computer. Springer-Verlag. p. 17. ISBN 0-387-57700-9.
4 Meeus; Mathematical Astronomical Morsels; ISBN 0-943396-51-4
5 PIA11667: The Rite of Spring". Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology. Retrieved 21 March 2014.

Those are citations for a Wikipedia article, which reference books and sources about earth science, not studies from scientists who studied all points on the earth's surface during the equinox. Why don't you try being honest for once?

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 01:10:42 AM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?
Why would you require proof, especially from a single scientist's study? Did you hold Rowbotham to the same level of evidence?

I expected that RE'ers had some level of evidence behind their facts. Published studies, that sort of thing.
I assume Google searches work for you.

From Wikipedia article on Equinox:

References
1 United States Naval Observatory (2010-06-10). "Earth's Seasons: Equinoxes, Solstices, Perihelion, and Aphelion, 2000-2020".
2 Owens, Steve (20 March 2010). "Equinox, Equilux, and Twilight Times". Dark Sky Diary (blog). Retrieved 31 December 2010.
3 Montenbruck, Oliver; Pfleger, Thomas. Astronomy on the Personal Computer. Springer-Verlag. p. 17. ISBN 0-387-57700-9.
4 Meeus; Mathematical Astronomical Morsels; ISBN 0-943396-51-4
5 PIA11667: The Rite of Spring". Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology. Retrieved 21 March 2014.

Once again Gulliver proves, for all his elocution, that his scientific credentials only extend to the ability to Google and Wikipedia whatever mainstream result he wishes to support.  Well done, Google Scholar.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 01:36:55 AM »
I expected that RE'ers had some level of evidence behind their facts. Published studies, that sort of thing.
I assume Google searches work for you.

From Wikipedia article on Equinox:

References
1 United States Naval Observatory (2010-06-10). "Earth's Seasons: Equinoxes, Solstices, Perihelion, and Aphelion, 2000-2020".
2 Owens, Steve (20 March 2010). "Equinox, Equilux, and Twilight Times". Dark Sky Diary (blog). Retrieved 31 December 2010.
3 Montenbruck, Oliver; Pfleger, Thomas. Astronomy on the Personal Computer. Springer-Verlag. p. 17. ISBN 0-387-57700-9.
4 Meeus; Mathematical Astronomical Morsels; ISBN 0-943396-51-4
5 PIA11667: The Rite of Spring". Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology. Retrieved 21 March 2014.

Those are citations for a Wikipedia article, which reference books and sources about earth science, not studies from scientists who studied all points on the earth's surface during the equinox. Why don't you try being honest for once?
Do tell me where I was not honest. I challenge you.

I also challenge you to provide evidence to prove your position to the same insane level.
Once again Gulliver proves, for all his elocution, that his scientific credentials only extend to the ability to Google and Wikipedia whatever mainstream result he wishes to support.  Well done, Google Scholar.
First, your reasoning is impaired. An example is not proof. Indeed anecdotal evidence is not worth much in proving a point ever.

Second, is there some reason you believe that I've claimed any scientific credentials? Are you claiming that only those with such credentials can debate topics?
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 01:46:30 AM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?
???  Why would anyone need to study every point on the surface of the earth?  Isn't a representative sample sufficient?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 03:04:13 AM »
Second, is there some reason you believe that I've claimed any scientific credentials?

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=15565.msg291595#msg291595

Quote from: Gulliver
My Ph.D. is in OR. I taught undergraduate physics, graduate law, graduate business, graduate math, graduation computer science. My publications are in OR, Comp Sci., OM, AI, and physics. I've worked as a contractor for the DOD, FBI, GAO, and NASA.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 03:42:01 AM »
Second, is there some reason you believe that I've claimed any scientific credentials?

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=15565.msg291595#msg291595

Quote from: Gulliver
My Ph.D. is in OR. I taught undergraduate physics, graduate law, graduate business, graduate math, graduation computer science. My publications are in OR, Comp Sci., OM, AI, and physics. I've worked as a contractor for the DOD, FBI, GAO, and NASA.
So you had only to go to another forum, back over 7 years, omit a relevant part of the quote, and answer a question posed to someone probably only on this board. Amazingly awful.

Now back to the topic please: show us your proof to the level you demanded of REers.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Rama Set

Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 07:20:34 AM »
On the equinoxes, the sun illuminates everywhere on earth for 12 hours. Its "spotlight" covers exactly 50% of the earth.

Which scientist studied the earth from every point on its surface on this day to prove this?
???  Why would anyone need to study every point on the surface of the earth?  Isn't a representative sample sufficient?

Obviously Tom holds wildly unequal standards. Otherwise how could he possibly cite ENaG?

Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 03:20:38 PM »
The distribution of light on a sphere (from a single source) is not difficult to test. Any one can get a ball or globe, put it in a dark room, turn on a light source, and observe what areas are illuminated.

What you will find is an even distribution of illuminated area on all surfaces on the side of the sphere that is toward the light.

Conversely one could switch the sphere for a large plate or disk and see the entire disk lit up.

The point to my thread is in seeking a fleshed out explanation for why the shape of the illuminated area on a disk is more or less D shaped.

My assertion is that the D shape is a best case scenario when the sun's path is more or less directly over the equator.  Things get much trickier for FET when the case of northern or southern summer.

In the case of southern Summer the light has to get to the other side of the disk (without illuminating the night time side) in order to keep all of Antarctica/ice ring illuminated. On a flat earth this would look like back to back D's where the center of one D was dark and the rest were lit up.

Northern summer is much easier to explain but is still a version of a D shape with a lowercase d bulge on the back to illuminate the center pole constantly.

I am guessing the total coverage of light is significantly larger in the case of Southern summer. Probably by a factor of 2 but I am eagerly awaiting to hear how the basic shape is determined before we get too much further.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 04:29:09 PM »
The distribution of light on a sphere (from a single source) is not difficult to test. Any one can get a ball or globe, put it in a dark room, turn on a light source, and observe what areas are illuminated.

What you will find is an even distribution of illuminated area on all surfaces on the side of the sphere that is toward the light.

Conversely one could switch the sphere for a large plate or disk and see the entire disk lit up.

The point to my thread is in seeking a fleshed out explanation for why the shape of the illuminated area on a disk is more or less D shaped.

My assertion is that the D shape is a best case scenario when the sun's path is more or less directly over the equator.  Things get much trickier for FET when the case of northern or southern summer.

In the case of southern Summer the light has to get to the other side of the disk (without illuminating the night time side) in order to keep all of Antarctica/ice ring illuminated. On a flat earth this would look like back to back D's where the center of one D was dark and the rest were lit up.

Northern summer is much easier to explain but is still a version of a D shape with a lowercase d bulge on the back to illuminate the center pole constantly.

I am guessing the total coverage of light is significantly larger in the case of Southern summer. Probably by a factor of 2 but I am eagerly awaiting to hear how the basic shape is determined before we get too much further.

You are making a false assumption, and then calling us liars when we can't prove your false assumption is correct.

Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 07:03:05 PM »
You are making a false assumption, and then calling us liars when we can't prove your false assumption is correct.

Please explain where my assumptions are false, and provide explanation of the mechanism that produces different predictions.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Shape of daylight on a disc
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 07:06:32 PM »
You are making a false assumption, and then calling us liars when we can't prove your false assumption is correct.

Please explain where my assumptions are false, and provide explanation of the mechanism that produces different predictions.

You are assuming that exactly half of the disc is lit by the sun on the equinoxes.  You have no evidence that this is so.  In our model sunlight is diffused and propagated by the atmoplane, becoming an oblong spotlight.  Tom's illustrations summarize it rather well, I think.