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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #380 on: July 27, 2021, 08:52:18 PM »
So something was killing a lot more people than the average.
How about cancelling all their operations and cancer treatements?
There will be certainly be a long term impact of this. And there's a debate to be had about whether it was worth it.
But no, that doesn't explain the immediate rise in deaths. One bloke the article quotes - who, you may note, is alive - says as much:

Quote
“The surgery was rebooked for 5 January but was again cancelled the day before. My oncologist told me that all [non-emergency] surgery is now cancelled indefinitely,” said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.
“Without this surgery my cancer may grow, spread or become untreatable, in which case I will be dead within the next few years.”
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.

How many people got ill and died almost immediately because there was no help?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8996249/Why-GPs-refusing-patients-face-face.html

How many people with serious concerns stayed away?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/27/fears-seriously-ill-a-and-e-numbers-drop-coronavirus-nhs

In other news, those doctors who refuse to see patients, the administrators who cancelled hundreds of thousands of operations and the nurses who refused to help people because they didn't have facemasks ... have all threatened to go on strike unless they get a 12.5% pay rise.

Seriously, fuck the NHS. Its full of free-loaders who are canonized for being as lazy as possible. They never stop moaning and they can never be paid enough. Fuck em all off and REGULATE private health providers.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #381 on: July 27, 2021, 08:55:12 PM »
The lockdown itself is causing excess deaths, as Thork pointed out. They are being mis-attributed to Covid because it's a highly transmissible harmless disease (or as harmful as the flu) that everyone gets. Unlike with the flu in previous years, the government is putting anything down as Covid, even if you die of a motorcycle accident with Covid in your system, as we saw in the other thread. That is a fraud on the public to make Covid into a bigger deal than it is.

The excess deaths that they couldn't pin on Covid are up all around during this Covid pandemic:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361

Quote
A study analyzing US mortality in March-July 2020 reported a 20% increase in excess deaths, only partly explained by COVID-19. Surges in excess deaths varied in timing and duration across states and were accompanied by increased mortality from non–COVID-19 causes.

Caused by the lockdown.

Th data is clearly manipulated. The fact is that they are misreporting any death to be caused by Covid if there is Covid in your system.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

They didn't do that in previous years. If you had the flu and died in a motorcycle accident you were not counted as a flu death.

Why the new procedure?

It's a lie and a manipulation to fudge the numbers. You are perpetuating fraudulent arguments that do not hold up.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 09:10:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #382 on: July 27, 2021, 08:59:09 PM »
So something was killing a lot more people than the average.
How about cancelling all their operations and cancer treatements?
There will be certainly be a long term impact of this. And there's a debate to be had about whether it was worth it.
But no, that doesn't explain the immediate rise in deaths. One bloke the article quotes - who, you may note, is alive - says as much:

Quote
“The surgery was rebooked for 5 January but was again cancelled the day before. My oncologist told me that all [non-emergency] surgery is now cancelled indefinitely,” said the man, who asked to remain anonymous.
“Without this surgery my cancer may grow, spread or become untreatable, in which case I will be dead within the next few years.”
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.

How many people got ill and died almost immediately because there was no help?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8996249/Why-GPs-refusing-patients-face-face.html

How many people with serious concerns stayed away?
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/27/fears-seriously-ill-a-and-e-numbers-drop-coronavirus-nhs

In other news, those doctors who refuse to see patients, the administrators who cancelled hundreds of thousands of operations and the nurses who refused to help people because they didn't have facemasks ... have all threatened to go on strike unless they get a 12.5% pay rise.

Seriously, fuck the NHS. Its full of free-loaders who are canonized for being as lazy as possible. They never stop moaning and they can never be paid enough. Fuck em all off and REGULATE private health providers.

Lesser of two evils, perhaps.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #383 on: July 27, 2021, 09:07:26 PM »
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.
Your response is that 129,000 people died because they didn't get hip replacements. Behave.
Yes, there will be an impact of this. But bullshit is that the cause of this many extra deaths.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #384 on: July 27, 2021, 09:09:34 PM »
The lockdown itself is causing excess deaths, as Thork pointed out.
As Thork asserted without evidence.

Quote
They are being mis-attributed to Covid
No they aren't

Quote
because it's a highly transmissible harmless disease

No

Quote
(or as harmful as the flu)

No.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #385 on: July 27, 2021, 09:23:24 PM »
You picked one guy and your response is ... 129,000 must all be like that guy.
Your response is that 129,000 people died because they didn't get hip replacements. Behave.
Yes, there will be an impact of this. But bullshit is that the cause of this many extra deaths.
Don't you tell me to behave!  >o<

You are asking about just 129,000 deaths.
Quote from: https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/pressure-points-in-the-nhs
The BMA estimates that, between April 2020 and May 2021, there were:

3.63 million fewer elective procedures
23.67 million fewer outpatient attendances.
I'm suggesting that of the 3.63 million procedures cancelled, 3.5% of them might have been important enough have killed people. Or of the 23.67 million outpatient visits, maybe some of them would have detected something more serious and saved a life or tens of thousands of them.
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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #386 on: July 27, 2021, 09:31:27 PM »
I'm suggesting that of the 3.63 million procedures cancelled, 3.5% of them might have been important enough have killed people.
That's not what elective surgery means.

Quote
Or of the 23.67 million outpatient visits, maybe some of them would have detected something more serious and saved a life or tens of thousands of them.
Right. And this I agree with. And that will definitely have an impact. I just don't buy that it would have had the immediate impact we saw last winter - as I've said on here, I recently spoke to an ICU Doctor. His hospital was choc full over the winter and he was routinely having to tell families bad news in a way he's never had to before. To act like nothing was going on last winter is not a reasonable position.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #387 on: July 27, 2021, 09:38:12 PM »
I recently spoke to an ICU Doctor. His hospital was choc full over the winter and he was routinely having to tell families bad news in a way he's never had to before. To act like nothing was going on last winter is not a reasonable position.
The man is telling you lies. There is no way he has never had to give out so much bad news.



It is a tiny surge, and one that is equalled by anyone practising for more than 12 years. He has a what 5% uplift on normal deaths? That's not "in a way he's never had to before". That's another fucking doctor trying to martyr himself. I really think the NHS draws in a certain kind of wanker. Those who want never ending thanks and to be constantly recognised as better and more important than everyone else. That doctor is an outright liar. And 2020 has shown most people in healthcare seem to be similarly self-absorbed.
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Offline Iceman

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #388 on: July 27, 2021, 09:48:25 PM »
Ok but 365,000 x 3/4 is still around  267,000 deaths from covid, per Tom's source
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 09:52:29 PM by Iceman »

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #389 on: July 27, 2021, 10:04:22 PM »
He has a what 5% uplift on normal deaths?
No. The rate over the winter was 30% above average at its peak.
You are comparing the death rate over the course of a year with an extreme peak over a winter.
As your graph shows, and here's one going back 30 years, the peaks of deaths last year bucked a 30 year falling trend of death rates:



And that is just 2020 data, many of the deaths over the winter were in 2021 so this year will most likely show a similar rise above the average and otherwise falling trend. Just pretending it's a fuss about nothing flies in the face of the data.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #390 on: July 27, 2021, 10:05:41 PM »
General increase in deaths:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778361

Quote
A study analyzing US mortality in March-July 2020 reported a 20% increase in excess deaths, only partly explained by COVID-19.

Plus misreporting of Covid Deaths:

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721

Quote
So what does that policy mean in practice? We asked Modie about a hypothetical case where someone died from a motorcycle crash and also had COVID-19. Would that be counted as a COVID-19 death?

“It would be,” Modie explained. “But I must go back to the point about how we used this data, which is to help us track how COVID-19 is spread in the community.”

= FRAUD

We get plenty of asymptomatic or otherwise harmless diseases in us. There is no reason to start changing the way deaths are reported. In years past they did not attribute motorcycle deaths to the flu if someone had asymptomatic flu in their system.

If you can't argue with consistent data and methods, it's a worthless argument.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 10:11:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #391 on: July 27, 2021, 10:09:26 PM »
He has a what 5% uplift on normal deaths?
No. The rate over the winter was 30% above average at its peak.
You are comparing the death rate over the course of a year with an extreme peak over a winter.
As your graph shows, and here's one going back 30 years, the peaks of deaths last year bucked a 30 year falling trend of death rates:



And that is just 2020 data, many of the deaths over the winter were in 2021 so this year will most likely show a similar rise above the average and otherwise falling trend. Just pretending it's a fuss about nothing flies in the face of the data.
Your graph shows exactly what mine shows.

That deaths have been falling for years and that this is a small uptick. Where do you get 30% from? I'm looking at the graph YOU provided. I see 5-10% max. There is no legend on the graph. What do the numbers on the left even mean? 1000 deaths? Is it even for the UK? Is it about deaths or sales of hot tubs during the pandemic.

A small reversal in a trend is hardly world ending stuff. And your doctor friend sounds like he and his ilk are milking it for all its worth.
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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #392 on: July 27, 2021, 10:22:52 PM »
That deaths have been falling for years and that this is a small uptick. Where do you get 30% from? I'm looking at the graph YOU provided.
I get it from the first graph I presented. This is the week by week mortality compared with the average:



My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.
I'd suggest that's hardly a "nothing to see here" scenario.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #393 on: July 27, 2021, 10:28:29 PM »
My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.
I'd suggest that's hardly a "nothing to see here" scenario.
But how do I know it is covid and not the other things we mentioned? Because covid has been 'mentioned' on their death certificate?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #394 on: July 27, 2021, 10:31:51 PM »
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.

Did you show that there was not a general increase in deaths and that Covid cases are not being misreported? No. You didn't even bother to address those arguments. You just keep posting your graph and repeating the same trash.

Another article on it:

https://www.kxl.com/study-shows-increase-in-non-covid-deaths-during-pandemic/

Quote
(Portland, OR) — Health officials say there was an increase in deaths from non-COVID-19 related conditions during the pandemic. A Providence Health study found unplanned hospitalizations were cut up to 50-percent while deaths increased 20-percent. People held off going to hospitals for heart issues, strokes and care for chronic conditions due to fear they’d get COVID-19. Doctors say people need to know that medical clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms are safe places to get medical care.

People were afraid of going to the hospital = Excess deaths.

Reporting Motorcycle Accidents and any death with Covid as a Covid Death = FRAUD

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #395 on: July 28, 2021, 08:10:58 AM »
My mistake, it was actually 44% above average at the peak. This is all cause mortality over the last winter.
By Christmas it was 30% above the average you'd expect for the time of year, by early Feb it peaked at 44% above the average.
I'd suggest that's hardly a "nothing to see here" scenario.
But how do I know it is covid and not the other things we mentioned? Because covid has been 'mentioned' on their death certificate?

The number of cases over the winter was correlated with hospitalisations due to Covid which was correlated with deaths:



Note the slight delay - a rise in cases led to a rise in hospitalisations a bit later which then led to deaths.
Famously, correlation does not imply causation but I'd suggest this is pretty good evidence that Covid was the main factor.
Also, the number of Covid deaths correlates quite closely with the numbers of excess deaths.

Early in the pandemic the deaths from Covid were certainly being over-reported - someone would be marked as a Covid death if they died and had had a positive test at any previous point.
That was obviously silly and even they admitted that in the end and adjusted it to 28 days. So sure, someone could have had a positive Covid test and then within 4 weeks had a motorcycle accident but I'd suggest that is statistically rare. There will certainly be cases where someone old and vulnerable had all kinds of things wrong with them, caught Covid and that would have been recorded as a factor in their death. The reality of course is that they would have died anyway, Covid might have helped to kick them out the door a bit sooner. But it's pretty hard to argue that Covid has not been a factor in a lot of these deaths.

The other things you mentioned are a lot of cancelled elective surgeries. And sure, that will have caused people a lot of problems, but they're elective for a reason - generally you're not going to die if you don't have the surgery. I know two people who had heart surgery last year. In both cases it was urgent so they did it quickly. The lack of appointments and treatments will cause people both discomfort and will almost certainly lead to excess deaths over the next few years, but it's pretty unlikely to have led to that many excess deaths so quickly. And it's surely too much of a coincidence that the excess deaths happened over the winter when respiratory diseases are at their peak.

TL;DR - Covid has clearly killed a lot of people. Were lockdowns the right thing to do? Probably not - or certainly not the way we did them. Was it worth all the long term consequences that lockdowns will cause both economically and in terms of people's physical and mental health - again, probably not. But this was clearly a situation which demanded a response.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #396 on: July 28, 2021, 10:38:27 AM »
But this was clearly a situation which demanded a response.
Yes, the proper response would have been to not count a death as a covid death just because of the presence of covid and for all of the morons to shutter themselves in their own homes of their own free will and accord.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #397 on: July 28, 2021, 11:33:11 AM »
Action “Public Health Expert” 69

Obviously analyzing any decision with 20/20 hindsight is idiotic, especially with the chaos in NYC in the first months. Remember, there were mass graves being dug there and ICUs that were taxed way beyond capacity.

Hopefully, the actual experts will learn from this and develop improved policies and responses.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #398 on: July 28, 2021, 11:35:56 AM »
Action “Public Health Expert” 69

Obviously analyzing any decision with 20/20 hindsight is idiotic, especially with the chaos in NYC in the first months. Remember, there were mass graves being dug there and ICUs that were taxed way beyond capacity.

Hopefully, the actual experts will learn from this and develop improved policies and responses.
Why don't you tell us all why the "mass graves," were being dug and for how long that process has been in place?

Jesus, you too, another one of the foisters of the lie.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #399 on: July 28, 2021, 11:40:54 AM »
Action “Public Health Expert” 69

Obviously analyzing any decision with 20/20 hindsight is idiotic, especially with the chaos in NYC in the first months. Remember, there were mass graves being dug there and ICUs that were taxed way beyond capacity.

Hopefully, the actual experts will learn from this and develop improved policies and responses.
Why don't you tell us all why the "mass graves," were being dug and for how long that process has been in place?

Jesus, you too, another one of the foisters of the lie.

Well, Lackey, graves are dug so that dead bodies can be deposited underground. In this case, “mass” doesn’t refer to the amount of matter measured in kilograms (stop me if it gets too technical for you) but rather because the grave is meant to contain a multitude of corpses.

If you wish to learn more about how long humans have been burying humans en masse (that’s French, sorry if that’s too much), I suggest browsing this page for a quick primer.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.