The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: J-Man on February 21, 2022, 10:20:53 PM

Title: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 21, 2022, 10:20:53 PM
NATO tonight is scratching heads.

Do nukes fly?

Maybe more than Brandon will need diapers?

https://www.rt.com/russia/550177-putin-decree-military-donbass/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on February 21, 2022, 10:29:43 PM
You can’t invade Ukraine if you decide it’s not Ukraine anymore. *taps forehead*
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 21, 2022, 11:35:30 PM
Diaper Joe sends out a new law to all us Americans. I have no idea how I'll survive or the Ukrainians will get by now?

"Minutes later, White House press secretary Jen Psaki announced that President Joe Biden would soon issue an executive order banning Americans from investing, financing or trading in the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics (DPR and LPR, respectively). "

https://www.rt.com/news/550180-us-sanctions-donbass-republics/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on February 21, 2022, 11:39:54 PM
"Peacekeepers"

Putin wants peace at any cost, no matter how many Ukrainians he has to kill to get it?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on February 22, 2022, 09:00:58 AM
Let's back an economically troubled nation with a giant ass nuclear arsenal further into a corner by imposing harsh sanctions. What could possibly go wrong? 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on February 22, 2022, 12:42:29 PM
Let's back an economically troubled nation with a giant ass nuclear arsenal further into a corner by imposing harsh sanctions. What could possibly go wrong?

You think Putin will deploy nukes because his people are starving? That’s ridiculous. He doesn’t care. As long as he can find a way to keep him and his buddies rich, he is good.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 22, 2022, 01:07:37 PM
Didn't Germany basically do the same thing in 1938?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on February 22, 2022, 04:21:28 PM
Let's back an economically troubled nation with a giant ass nuclear arsenal further into a corner by imposing harsh sanctions. What could possibly go wrong?

Appeasing brutal expansionist dictators always goes well.

If he is willing to use nukes to get what he wants, he won't stop at Ukraine.  If he's that nuts, we're all fucked no matter what we do.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 22, 2022, 08:40:38 PM
Let's back an economically troubled nation with a giant ass nuclear arsenal further into a corner by imposing harsh sanctions. What could possibly go wrong?

Subs?  East/West/Gulf

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a19863945/here-are-all-the-submarines-of-the-russian-navy-in-one-infographic/

A new infographic shows the underwater might of the Russian Navy and its fleet of 72 submarines, one more than the U.S. Navy at the time of this writing.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on February 23, 2022, 12:23:21 AM
Anyone who thinks there can be a winner of a nuclear war between the US and Russia doesn't understand how nuclear weapons work. :-\
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on February 23, 2022, 01:34:19 AM
Let's back an economically troubled nation with a giant ass nuclear arsenal further into a corner by imposing harsh sanctions. What could possibly go wrong?

Appeasing brutal expansionist dictators always goes well.

If he is willing to use nukes to get what he wants, he won't stop at Ukraine.  If he's that nuts, we're all fucked no matter what we do.

Nukes will be the only negotiation mechanism Russia will have if their economy is torn to shreds due to these super ultra harsh sanctions that are supposed to be coming. Indeed, they've already conducted ballistic missile drills and mentioned them in their recent political rhetoric.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 23, 2022, 02:10:39 AM
Let's back an economically troubled nation with a giant ass nuclear arsenal further into a corner by imposing harsh sanctions. What could possibly go wrong?

Appeasing brutal expansionist dictators always goes well.

If he is willing to use nukes to get what he wants, he won't stop at Ukraine.  If he's that nuts, we're all fucked no matter what we do.

Nukes will be the only negotiation mechanism Russia will have if their economy is torn to shreds due to these super ultra harsh sanctions that are supposed to be coming. Indeed, they've already conducted ballistic missile drills and mentioned them in their recent political rhetoric.

My math may be wrong but Germany pays about .60 euros for a cubic meter of nat gas, which will probably go to $ 2 euro since the fight is on.  Thats even with nord stream 1 intact. 3/4s of 40 mill homes use Russian gas. Good thing spring is almost here.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on February 23, 2022, 02:06:18 PM
On the positive side, anything that pushes countries to move away from oil and gas is a good thing. Russia is truly and totally screwed if the world stops buying their oil. That's well over half of their exports and nearly half of their entire economy.

Hopefully this will give Europe the kick in the pants they need to move away from being dependent on Russian oil and gas.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 23, 2022, 05:23:54 PM
On the positive side, anything that pushes countries to move away from oil and gas is a good thing. Russia is truly and totally screwed if the world stops buying their oil. That's well over half of their exports and nearly half of their entire economy.

Hopefully this will give Europe the kick in the pants they need to move away from being dependent on Russian oil and gas.

Oh trust me, they got that kick a while ago.  It just takes time to retrofit a few hundred million homes.

They refused norwegian gas and oil.  Which was annoying for Norway.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 24, 2022, 05:35:30 AM
This thread title aged poorly.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 24, 2022, 06:10:43 AM
This thread title aged poorly.

No kidding, shut dwn and control the air space, send the internet into deep space. Freeze, don't anybody move, hands above your heads. This looks like winning a war by the book, quickly.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on February 24, 2022, 08:57:50 AM
If they really wanted to make some big city moves, NK would just start artillerying SK, China would take Taiwan, and Russia would keep rolling their tanks to Paris. And there's not a lot anyone could do about it.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 24, 2022, 11:29:12 AM
If they really wanted to make some big city moves, NK would just start artillerying SK, China would take Taiwan, and Russia would keep rolling their tanks to Paris. And there's not a lot anyone could do about it.

There is but everyone's afraid Putin would just nuke the world out of spite.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 24, 2022, 12:46:25 PM
If they really wanted to make some big city moves, NK would just start artillerying SK, China would take Taiwan, and Russia would keep rolling their tanks to Paris. And there's not a lot anyone could do about it.

There is but everyone's afraid Putin would just nuke the world out of spite.

Maybe the U.S should just surrender to Putin and become part of Russia.  That's what the Republicans want.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 24, 2022, 12:52:06 PM
If they really wanted to make some big city moves, NK would just start artillerying SK, China would take Taiwan, and Russia would keep rolling their tanks to Paris. And there's not a lot anyone could do about it.

There is but everyone's afraid Putin would just nuke the world out of spite.

Maybe the U.S should just surrender to Putin and become part of Russia.  That's what the Republicans want.
It is!
They are just... They are so anti-biden that they will literally hate on any move he does.
If he did two opposite actions in a week, Fox would call both the worst move ever.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 24, 2022, 08:54:36 PM
China is now taunting Taiwan...  Fat Boy in NK what you got? Rodman? #1 D evar

Do you think Putin will now embarrass the BigGuy with all the Ukrainian dirt sonny boy did?

War from the sidelines...sis boom bah !!!
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 24, 2022, 09:45:55 PM
China is now taunting Taiwan...  Fat Boy in NK what you got? Rodman? #1 D evar

Do you think Putin will now embarrass the BigGuy with all the Ukrainian dirt sonny boy did?

War from the sidelines...sis boom bah !!!
No.
That requires
1. There to be dirt.
2. Him to care.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on February 24, 2022, 10:31:48 PM
At this point Putin could show iron clad proof that he used financial blackmail on Trump and Republicans would just ignore it and pretend it never happened.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on February 24, 2022, 11:02:41 PM
At this point Putin could show iron clad proof that he used financial blackmail on Trump and Republicans would just ignore it and pretend it never happened.

They’d blame it on democrats, actually.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on February 25, 2022, 01:04:58 AM
If they really wanted to make some big city moves, NK would just start artillerying SK, China would take Taiwan, and Russia would keep rolling their tanks to Paris. And there's not a lot anyone could do about it.

There is but everyone's afraid Putin would just nuke the world out of spite.

Yeah that's what I mean.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 25, 2022, 01:26:53 AM
No one comes to Ukraine's aid, their island is now a place where NO military weapons will be housed ever, except Putin's. This was quick and efficient with only a few lives lost, yes a few to many but from here on out, all lives are now protected by a super power. Enjoy your freedom !
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: xasop on February 25, 2022, 01:29:55 AM
island
what
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Clyde Frog on February 25, 2022, 01:41:19 AM
island
what
I'm not sure, but I suspect he means Snake Island. 13 Ukrainian soldiers were there, a Russian ship showed up and told them to surrender, they responded saying "Go fuck yourself" and then they got killed.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on February 25, 2022, 03:06:51 AM
Thork, what are you doing in Ukraine you crazy bastard?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcYlnXii3fE
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on February 25, 2022, 03:50:36 PM
Imagine believing Ukraine exists.  :-\
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 25, 2022, 06:04:30 PM
Well I guess it's over?  Gas flowing like crazy thru Ukraine, Gold hammered, stocks roaring back. Time for Taiwan?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 25, 2022, 06:55:08 PM
Well I guess it's over?  Gas flowing like crazy thru Ukraine, Gold hammered, stocks roaring back. Time for Taiwan?

I see no news that the fighting stopped. 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 25, 2022, 08:00:55 PM
Well if this doesn’t stop Putin in his tracks then I don’t know what will…

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-kicked-out-of-eurovision-after-ukraine-invasion-12551440
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on February 25, 2022, 08:21:48 PM
Well if this doesn’t stop Putin in his tracks then I don’t know what will…

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-kicked-out-of-eurovision-after-ukraine-invasion-12551440

Thork in shambles.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2022, 06:10:55 PM
I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong.

https://twitter.com/Amy21407287/status/1497556324120514570
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on February 26, 2022, 06:15:22 PM
I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong.

https://twitter.com/Amy21407287/status/1497556324120514570

Um...

Fuck it. You do you. I guess someone needs to stick up for putin.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 26, 2022, 08:01:24 PM
I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong.

https://twitter.com/Amy21407287/status/1497556324120514570

Um...

Fuck it. You do you. I guess someone needs to stick up for putin.

This is the new thing for Republicans. They have to support Putin and keep him happy, just like they do any of their other mega-donors.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 26, 2022, 08:23:10 PM
It's funny how an opinion is based on and "backed-up" by some rando who made a TikTok video. I'm sure that guy is representative of the entirety of the Ukraine population.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Iceman on February 26, 2022, 08:40:39 PM
Certainly not representative of:
- their PM “I don’t want a ride out, I want anti-tank ammo”
- their old women “I hope you carry sunflower seeds in your pockets so something good will come of your deaths”
- their border guards “go fuck yourself”
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2022, 08:52:35 PM
It's funny how an opinion is based on and "backed-up" by some rando who made a TikTok video. I'm sure that guy is representative of the entirety of the Ukraine population.

Why would he need to represent the entire Ukrainian population to have a valid viewpoint?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 26, 2022, 09:12:10 PM
It's funny how an opinion is based on and "backed-up" by some rando who made a TikTok video. I'm sure that guy is representative of the entirety of the Ukraine population.

Why would he need to represent the entire Ukrainian population to have a valid viewpoint?

What makes it valid? An opinion doesn't make for instant validity.

And apparently, if I'm reading your post right, you saying "I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong," is supposed to be supported by one rando in a TikTok video? Is this what it has come to?

I mean pretty much any rando could say what this rando says about pretty much any country or population. Couldn't a rando say the exact same thing about Russia?

"Ukraine Russia is so evil, Ukrainian Russian people are so corrupt, so evil, such liars, thieves...The fact that President Biden and his son President Putin and his Oligarchs have corrupt dealings with Ukraine everyone and still get elected gives you a situation as to why Putin is invading NATO and the rest of the world has a problem with the invasion..."
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on February 26, 2022, 09:14:21 PM
I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong.

https://twitter.com/Amy21407287/status/1497556324120514570
Right, because there is no mafia, corruption or lying going on in Russia. ::)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2022, 09:21:28 PM
And apparently, if I'm reading your post right, you saying "I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong," is supposed to be supported by one rando in a TikTok video? Is this what it has come to?

Actually the TikTok video argues that Putin is in the right. My comment was that I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong. These are two different kinds of statements. There is a subtle difference there between the two statements, mine implicitly pointing out that there are a variety of opinions on this topic which does not necessitate that Putin is irremediably in the wrong on the situation.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 26, 2022, 09:29:26 PM
What makes it valid? An opinion doesn't make for instant validity.
You know the answer to that.
It fits in with what Tom wants to believe and it’s a good troll. It’s just more cherry picking from him, the hell does “4th generation Ukrainian” mean anyway? From his accent I t’s obviously someone who has grown up in the US. One of my great grandparents was Italian. Never met her and gives me zero right to pontificate on going on in Italy. Trolls gotta troll.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 26, 2022, 09:33:15 PM
And apparently, if I'm reading your post right, you saying "I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong," is supposed to be supported by one rando in a TikTok video? Is this what it has come to?

Actually the TikTok video argues that Putin is in the right. My comment was that I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong. These are two different kinds of statements. There is a subtle difference there between the two statements, mine implicitly pointing out that there are a variety of opinions on this topic which does not necessitate that Putin is irremediably in the wrong on the situation.

So what you're saying is that there are differences of opinion as to whether it was right or wrong for Putin to invade Ukraine? Apparently, it was previously unclear, until you came along, that some people may assume Putin is in the right and some people may assume he is in the wrong. Well, I guess thanks for sharing your astute insights on the matter.
 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2022, 09:36:32 PM
And apparently, if I'm reading your post right, you saying "I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong," is supposed to be supported by one rando in a TikTok video? Is this what it has come to?

Actually the TikTok video argues that Putin is in the right. My comment was that I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong. These are two different kinds of statements. There is a subtle difference there between the two statements, mine implicitly pointing out that there are a variety of opinions on this topic which does not necessitate that Putin is irremediably in the wrong on the situation.

So what you're saying is that there are differences of opinion as to whether it was right or wrong for Putin to invade Ukraine? Apparently, it was previously unclear, until you came along, that some people may assume Putin is in the right and some people may assume he is in the wrong. Well, I guess thanks for sharing your astute insights on the matter.

Yes, the difference of an opposite opinion would invalidate the opinion that Putin is in the wrong. With the presence of multiple opinions it cannot be said that Putin is definitely and irredeemably in the wrong.

There are lots of people in Russia and a world power government who support this event, and who don't think that they are in the wrong. You certainly should try to find out their reasoning before you jump to conclusions and make judgment.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 26, 2022, 09:48:38 PM
And apparently, if I'm reading your post right, you saying "I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong," is supposed to be supported by one rando in a TikTok video? Is this what it has come to?

Actually the TikTok video argues that Putin is in the right. My comment was that I don't see any reason to assume that Putin is in the wrong. These are two different kinds of statements. There is a subtle difference there between the two statements, mine implicitly pointing out that there are a variety of opinions on this topic which does not necessitate that Putin is irremediably in the wrong on the situation.

So what you're saying is that there are differences of opinion as to whether it was right or wrong for Putin to invade Ukraine? Apparently, it was previously unclear, until you came along, that some people may assume Putin is in the right and some people may assume he is in the wrong. Well, I guess thanks for sharing your astute insights on the matter.

Yes, the difference of an opposite opinion would invalidate the opinion that Putin is in the wrong. With the presence of multiple opinions it cannot be said that Putin is definitely and irredeemably in the wrong.

Are you trying to say that opposing opinions cancel each other out? That neither can be correct or incorrect? Is it a 1-to-1 thing? Or if I have 1 opinion and you have amassed 10 opposing ones from 9 other people, your 10 trumps my 1? I'm trying to get a handle on this as it's not really making any sense.

There are lots of people in Russia and a world power government who support this event, and who don't think that they are in the wrong. You certainly should try to find out their reasoning before you jump to conclusions and make judgment.

What makes you think someone hasn't looked into the reasoning of an opposing opinion?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2022, 09:58:30 PM
Quote from: stack
What makes you think someone hasn't looked into the reasoning of an opposing opinion?

Probably because there are two sides to every story and we are only hearing one side. We know logically that Russian media and Russian government are giving an entirely different narrative which is not "lets be evil!", as is suggested to be the narrative by many in the West.

Quote from: stack
Are you trying to say that opposing opinions cancel each other out? That neither can be correct or incorrect? Is it a 1-to-1 thing? Or if I have 1 opinion and you have amassed 10 opposing ones from 9 other people, your 10 trumps my 1? I'm trying to get a handle on this as it's not really making any sense.

I have no idea that you are mumbling about. I am pointing out that there are multiple sides to a story and that the Russians probably do not think that they are doing bad and evil things unnecessarily.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 26, 2022, 10:23:18 PM
Russians probably do not think that they are doing bad and evil things unnecessarily.

How would you know this?

And "unnecessarily" is a strange term to be using. It's pretty clear and well documented, even in MSM, why Putin thinks it's "necessary". That has no correlation as to whether something is default bad/evil or not.

In any case, I think liquor purveyors’ opinion trumps your random TikTok guy’s...

(https://i.imgur.com/7ScNGo4.gif)

Russian vodka pulled from shelves in US, Canada bars, liquor stores: ‘Every small thing makes a difference’ (https://www.foxnews.com/us/russian-vodka-us-canada-bars-liquor-stores-shelves)
Liquor stores across the U.S. and Canada have started throwing out their stocks of Russian vodka in protest of President Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, according to reports.

Gotta love Fox News for such in-depth reporting.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2022, 10:28:14 PM
Russians probably do not think that they are doing bad and evil things unnecessarily.

How would you know this?

Did I say that I did? I said probably. Russians probably have justifications for their actions and are not nodding their heads in acceptance that they are bad and evil. It is logical that they have their own narrative for their actions, and that the narrative is not "lets be evil". It is pretty idiotic to argue otherwise actually.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 26, 2022, 10:48:43 PM
Just because some Republicans want to support the expansion of the Soviet Union doesn't mean we want them invading our country. The same is probably true in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 26, 2022, 11:00:33 PM
Russians probably do not think that they are doing bad and evil things unnecessarily.

How would you know this?

Did I say that I did? I said probably. Russians probably have justifications for their actions and are not nodding their heads in acceptance that they are bad and evil. It is logical that they have their own narrative for their actions, and that the narrative is not "lets be evil". It is pretty idiotic to argue otherwise actually.

I still don't see what point you're trying to make. That some people may believe that their intentions are justified and not evil? So what? You could say the same thing about the Nazis. You could say the same thing about the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. What's your point? That we shouldn't assume Putin's invasion is "evil-minded". Sure, let's do that. So what? What should we do?

What should we do when Putin starts tacitly threatening Sweden and Finland if they join NATO? Oh wait, he just did. Probably not the first time, but now what should we do?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on February 26, 2022, 11:16:43 PM
Russians probably have justifications for their actions and are not nodding their heads in acceptance that they are bad and evil. It is logical that they have their own narrative for their actions, and that the narrative is not "lets be evil".
Of course Putin justifies his actions in Ukraine and doesn't think that he's evil.  Then again, Stalin, Hitler and Mao had their justifications for all the people they killed and didn't think that they were evil either.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 26, 2022, 11:31:28 PM
I'm not so sure that the Jews were completely innocent in the Hitler situation.

https://rense.com/general84/declare.htm


It is certainly possible that Hitler took things too far in the end. But there are two sides to the beginning of that conflict, and Hitler didn't just randomly decide to imprison the Jews. Apparently the Jews declared a holy war against Germany.

And here in this case you are assuming that Ukraine is innocent, despite the general knowledge that there has been years of conflict with Russia leading up to this.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on February 26, 2022, 11:37:42 PM
Conservatives defending Putin is hilarious. He's everything you hate about left-wing politicians only 10x worse.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 27, 2022, 01:18:08 AM
I'm not so sure that the Jews were completely innocent in the Hitler situation.

It is certainly possible that Hitler took things too far in the end.

“It’s certainly possible…”???
Seriously?

I question the reliability of your source narrator…Jeffry Rense, Rense.com:

Rense's radio program and website propagate conspiracy theories, including those of 9/11 conspiracists,[2] ufologists and advocates of the paranormal, the creation of diseases, chemtrails, evidence of advanced ancient technology, emergent energy technologies, and alternative medicine.

Rense's writings and website have been deemed pro-Nazi and antisemitic by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[3][4]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Rense
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2022, 02:03:09 AM
I question the reliability of your source narrator…Jeffry Rense, Rense.com:

Rense's radio program and website propagate conspiracy theories, including those of 9/11 conspiracists,[2] ufologists and advocates of the paranormal, the creation of diseases, chemtrails, evidence of advanced ancient technology, emergent energy technologies, and alternative medicine.

Rense's writings and website have been deemed pro-Nazi and antisemitic by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center.[3][4]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Rense

Yeah, so fake.  ::)

(https://i.imgur.com/gxtEJnF.jpg)

“It’s certainly possible…”???
Seriously?

Typically when your group declares war on another group you run the risk of dying when your opponent responds.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on February 27, 2022, 02:25:23 AM
I'm pretty sure that Hitler declared war on the Jews first.  Even so, how did that give him the right to invade Poland, France and pretty much the rest of Europe?

How does recognizing 2 breakaway territories (that Putin helped orchestrate) give Putin the right to force regime change in Ukraine despite being a violation of international law?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2022, 03:14:28 AM
I'm pretty sure that Hitler declared war on the Jews first.  Even so, how did that give him the right to invade Poland, France and pretty much the rest of Europe?

How does recognizing 2 breakaway territories (that Putin helped orchestrate) give Putin the right to force regime change in Ukraine despite being a violation of international law?

You were taught in school that Hitler was a cartoon villain who made naked acts of aggression and imprisoned and persecuted the Jews for no reason. Do you really think that it happened for absolutely no reason at all?

Per Poland, the Germans claimed that they were being harrassed and finally attacked (https://carolynyeager.net/gleiwitz-%E2%80%9Cfalse-flag%E2%80%9D-incident-pure-fiction).
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Iceman on February 27, 2022, 03:18:07 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on February 27, 2022, 03:53:20 AM
You were taught in school that Hitler was a cartoon villain who imprisoned and persecuted the Jews for no reason at all and made naked acts of aggression. Do you really think that it happened for absolutely no reason at all?
Have you heard about Mein Kampf?  He explained exactly what he thought about the Jews and what he planned to do about them once he got the chance.

Per Poland, the Germans claimed that they were being harrassed and finally attacked (https://carolynyeager.net/gleiwitz-%E2%80%9Cfalse-flag%E2%80%9D-incident-pure-fiction).
Right.  Attacking one radio station justified taking over the whole country and the rest of Europe.  It seems that dictators have a problem with proportional responses.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2022, 03:56:58 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol

That's not how it works though. If you are at war you are only obligated to treat enemy POWs in a certain way if they have an agreement to treat your POWs in that way.

The Soviets didn't ratify the Geneva convention, for example. The Germans therefore treated the American and British POWs a lot better than the Soviet POWs, who they enslaved and slaughtered at will. Reminder that this is a war.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-treatment-of-soviet-pows-starvation-disease-and-shootings-june-1941january-1942

Quote
From the very beginning, German policy on the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war (POWs) was determined by Nazi ideology. German political and military leaders regarded Soviet POWs not only as racially less valuable but as potential enemies, obstacles in the German conquest of "living space." The Nazi regime claimed that it was under no obligation for the humane care of prisoners of war from the Red Army because the Soviet Union had not ratified the 1929 Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War, nor had it specifically declared its commitment to the 1907 Hague Convention on the Rules of War.

https://roanoke.com/archive/prisoner-of-war-s/article_5bda2cdf-63cc-5574-99e0-de12eb59bf91.html

Quote
World War II: Germans typically treated American POWs in alignment with the Geneva Convention of 1929, which first addressed POW issues.

https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=9088

Quote
Still, as Vasilis Vourkoutiotis argues in this very structured study, the case of British and American POWs was unlike that of other POWs held by Nazi Germany and deserves to be examined in its own terms. The combination of three basic facts made it unique: Great Britain and the United States were never occupied by the Wehrmacht, the claim of British and American POWs to be protected by the 1929 Geneva Convention was never disputed by Germany (in contrast to the claim of captured Polish and Soviet soldiers), and there were numerous German POWs held by British and American forces (about three hundred thousand by the end of the war). Thus, whereas Soviet POWs captured by Germany were either murdered outright or held in atrocious conditions (resulting in mortality rates of around 60 percent), British and American POWs experienced treatment, "at a 'satisfactory' level or above," through most of the war (p. 195). Yet, as Vourkoutiotis correctly points out, this "did not necessarily mean that the requirements of the Geneva Convention were being met" (p. 195).

Therefore, the aim of Prisoners of War and the German High Command is straightforward: to examine to what degree the policies of the German High Command (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht or OKW) vis-=-vis British and American POWs consistently conformed to the stipulations of the Geneva Convention, and to investigate whether the de facto treatment followed OKW policies. Differently put, was it OKW policy that facilitated "satisfactory" material conditions in most of the camps, and was it the very same policy that resulted in a number of flagrant violations of the Geneva Convention. Thus, although the issue of OKW culpability in war crimes never receives more than a passing mention, it is implicitly present throughout the book.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on February 27, 2022, 04:17:40 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol

That's not how it works though. If you are at war you only treat enemy POWs in a certain way if they have an agreement to treat your POWs in that way.

The Soviets didn't ratify the Geneva convention, for example. The Germans therefore treated the American and British POWs a lot better than the Soviet POWs, who they enslaved and slaughtered at will. Reminder that this is a war.
Incorrect.  Germany signed the Geneva Convention and was therefore bound by its rules, even if the Soviets weren't.   Mein Kampf detailed what Hitler thought about the communists too and he hated the Communists almost as much as he hated the Jews.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on February 27, 2022, 06:15:49 AM
I get the impression that Tom Bishop is the sort of guy who watches 300 and roots for Xerxes
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 27, 2022, 07:56:04 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol

That's not how it works though. If you are at war you are only obligated to treat enemy POWs in a certain way if they have an agreement to treat your POWs in that

Are you saying that everyone in Dachau, Auschwitz, etc we’re Soviet soldiers, enemy POWs?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 27, 2022, 08:30:53 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 27, 2022, 09:27:50 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Yep.  Obvious troll is obvious.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 27, 2022, 09:43:39 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Yep.  Obvious troll is obvious.

Super obvious. Even above the normal trolling level. It’s just funny to see actually how far he’ll go. Will he break through the holocaust denial troll barrier? We shall see.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 27, 2022, 10:54:22 AM
Tom out here saying hitler was a little out of line in WWII like it would have been fine for Americans to have gassed every POW and citizen in internment camps because Pearl Harbor happened. Trollolol
It’s such blatant trolling I don’t know why anyone bothers to engage. I don’t know if he’s on commission for how many posts he can generate but he must be rich if so.
Yep.  Obvious troll is obvious.

Super obvious. Even above the normal trolling level. It’s just funny to see actually how far he’ll go. Will he break through the holocaust denial troll barrier? We shall see.

The man has broken the "basic physics" troll barrier.
He has no barriers now.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2022, 02:00:28 PM
Yeah, "troll". I think you really mean that you have no rebuttal to the fact that the Jews as a race declared war on Germany before Germany declared official sanctions on the Jews.

Have you heard about Mein Kampf?  He explained exactly what he thought about the Jews and what he planned to do about them once he got the chance.

I've looked into that. It says nothing about murdering the Jews. The Nazi solution was originally to deport them.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-final-solution

Quote
Did the Nazis always plan to murder the Jews?

No. When the Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933, they did not have a plan to murder the Jews of Europe. However, the Nazis were antisemitic. They saw Jews in Germany as a problem. One of the major questions for the Nazis was: How do we get rid of the Jewish population in Germany? This was often referred to by the Nazis as the “Jewish Question.”

Mass murder was not the Nazis’ first solution to the “Jewish Question.” In fact, the Nazis experimented with a variety of anti-Jewish policies and plans. For example, throughout the 1930s, they tried to force Jews to emigrate.

Quote from: markjo
Right.  Attacking one radio station justified taking over the whole country and the rest of Europe.  It seems that dictators have a problem with proportional responses.

From what Hitler said in quotes from the previous link (https://carolynyeager.net/gleiwitz-%E2%80%9Cfalse-flag%E2%80%9D-incident-pure-fiction) the country was being harassed:

(https://i.imgur.com/YPKslFw.png)

It would be easy to see how that could escalate.

Also, everyone knew by that point that there was a war building up between the powers. It didn't just happen out of the blue. Hence why Poland would mobilize its army.

Here are some quotes to research:


Sounds pretty aggressive to me. I don't know why you are assuming that Poland was purely innocent in that situation, or the other Allied powers for that matter.


Feel free to perform a search on that. If Churchill really said that and felt that way, it can hardly be claimed that Hitler was truly making naked acts of aggression like popularly claimed.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: garygreen on February 27, 2022, 02:14:11 PM
a ukraine thread in which tim uses literal nazi propaganda to justify why it was okay to liquidate millions of jews simply for being jews.

sometimes i hate this forum.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 27, 2022, 03:04:20 PM
It was pretty clear historically that Hitler hated the Jews long before any of this Naxi propaganda was printed. It's the same hate boner that rages anti-Semites to shoot up synagogues today.
That's why people like Tom call Jewish people a 'race.' It's another way to make them different and hate on them.

Did anyone else notice that the original image in Tom's 2:03 post changed? It was literally and obviously a fake newspaper headline and now it's just a quote. I wonder if the hate mongers really fall for this stupid crap or if they just think they'll fool others with it.

 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 27, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
It was pretty clear historically that Hitler hated the Jews long before any of this Naxi propaganda was printed. It's the same hate boner that rages anti-Semites to shoot up synagogues today.
That's why people like Tom call Jewish people a 'race.' It's another way to make them different and hate on them.

Did anyone else notice that the original image in Tom's 2:03 post changed? It was literally and obviously a fake newspaper headline and now it's just a quote. I wonder if the hate mongers really fall for this stupid crap or if they just think they'll fool others with it.

Tom is known for making quick posts then editing them when he realizes they'll break character or expose something obvious.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2022, 03:21:07 PM
The newspaper headline isn't fake.

Here is a copy of the front page on Archive.org: https://archive.org/details/judea-declares-war-on-germany_202006

(https://i.imgur.com/tzX6qun.jpg)

Here is another version of the newspaper with slightly different graphics on Archive.org which has the full paper: https://archive.org/details/Httpsarchive.orgdetailsJudeadeclareswarongermany/Daily%20Express%20-%20Judea%20Declares%20War%20on%20Germany/24-3-1933/Pagina%201%20-%20Portada/mode/1up

(https://i.imgur.com/mzLW3Tq.jpg)

Looks pretty real to me.

Next go to the Daily Express Archive at https://www.ukpressonline.co.uk/ukpressonline/?sf=express and search for the date "24/03/1933" in the date field. The graphic in the first result clearly has the same headline "Judea Declares War on Germany", although you need to subscribe to see the full paper:

(https://i.imgur.com/P47CCtn.png)

Are you saying that everyone in Dachau, Auschwitz, etc we’re Soviet soldiers, enemy POWs?

The Germans possibly could have seen them as enemy POWs like the Soviet POWs at the time. It seems possible that they could have seen them that way, yes. I wasn't there. But if you want to avoid being killed my advice would be not to declare war on people.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 27, 2022, 06:19:56 PM
This is what Hitler was saying in 1920 to cheering crowds...

"This is the first demand we must raise and do [reversal of the Versailles Treaty provisions]: that our people be set free, that these chains be burst asunder, that Germany be once again captain of her soul and master of her destinies, together with all those who want to join Germany. (Applause)

And the fulfillment of this first demand will then open up the way for all the other reforms.  And here is one thing that perhaps distinguishes us from you [Austrians] as far as our programme is concerned, although it is very much in the spirit of things: our attitude to the Jewish problem.

For us, this is not a problem you can turn a blind eye to-one to be solved by small concessions.  For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated.  Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus.  Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis.  This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst. (Applause)



Hitler was a creature of hate. Your attempt to paint him as a persecuted soul defending his home is as wrong as painting the earth as flat.

But this really reveals how you actually feel about members of the 'Jewish race.'
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2022, 06:32:15 PM
I didn't say that Hitler was innocent in this. I said that the Jews were not completely innocent. I'm pretty sure that many politicians in the past have said that illegal aliens need to go, or that x group is a problem. That's not an act of war, however, and exists as rhetoric in a speech until acted upon. You could listen to another politician the next day saying that Soviets bad, or Muslims bad.

The fact remains that the Jews struck at Germany before official sanctions were placed against them.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on February 27, 2022, 06:41:34 PM
The fact remains that the Jews struck at Germany before official sanctions were placed against them.
What military force did the Jews use to strike at Germany?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on February 27, 2022, 09:56:57 PM
Are you saying that everyone in Dachau, Auschwitz, etc we’re Soviet soldiers, enemy POWs?

The Germans possibly could have seen them as enemy POWs like the Soviet POWs at the time. It seems possible that they could have seen them that way, yes. I wasn't there. But if you want to avoid being killed my advice would be not to declare war on people.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that if, for example, some Christians "declared war" on a country, that that targeted country should round up all the Christians they can find, lock them up, then mutilate, shoot, or gas them? And this is the outcome people should expect?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 27, 2022, 10:20:05 PM
Let me get this straight. You're saying that if, for example, some Christians "declared war" on a country, that that targeted country should round up all the Christians they can find, lock them up, then mutilate, shoot, or gas them? And this is the outcome people should expect?

Considering that it has happened numerous times before in holy wars and ethnic wars, yes, people should expect that it could be the outcome of a war.

Here are a few - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_cleansing_campaigns

Quote
146 BC: The Battle of Carthage was the main engagement of the Third Punic War between the Punic city of Carthage in what is now the country of Tunisia and the Roman Republic. It was a siege operation, starting sometime between 149 and 148 BC, and ending in the spring of 146 BC with the sack and complete destruction of the city of Carthage. In the spring of 146 BC, the Romans broke through the city wall, eventually after hours upon hours of house-to-house fighting, the Carthaginians surrendered. An estimated 50,000 surviving inhabitants were sold into slavery. The city was then leveled. The land surrounding Carthage was eventually declared ager publicus (public land), and it was shared between local farmers, and Roman and Italian ones.
..
350 AD: Ancient Chinese texts record that General Ran Min ordered the extermination of the Wu Hu, especially the Jie people, during the Wei–Jie war in the fourth century AD. People with racial characteristics such as high-bridged noses and bushy beards were killed; in total, 200,000 were reportedly massacred.[2]
..
1069-1070 William the Conqueror devastated Northern England in what is now known as the Harrying of the North. During the Campaign, William pillaged and destroyed numerous towns and cities; destroying all of the region's food supplies with the intent to starve its population during the winter. Only a quarter of Northern England's population remained after the war.
..
1290 AD: Edward I of England expelled all of the Jews who were living in England in 1290. Hundreds of Jewish elders were executed.[4]
..
From 1894 to 1896, in an effort to islamize the Ottoman Empire, Sultan Abdul Hamid II ordered the killing of ethnic Armenians (along with other Christian minorities) living in the Ottoman Empire, based on their religion.
..
During the Balkan Wars ethnic cleansings were carried out in Kosovo, Macedonia, Sanjak and Thrace, at first, they were committed against the Muslim population, but later, they were also committed against Christians, villages were burned and people were massacred.
..
The Armenian genocide which occurred during World War I was implemented in two phases: the wholesale killing of the able-bodied male population through massacres and forced labor, and the deportation of women, children, the elderly and the infirm to the Syrian Desert on death marches.
..
The Bolshevik regime killed or deported an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 Don Cossacks during the Russian Civil War, in 1919–1920.[52] Geoffrey Hosking stated "It could be argued that the Red policy towards the Don Cossacks amounted to ethnic cleansing.
..
The Holodomor (1932–1933) is considered by many historians as a genocidal famine perpetrated on the orders of Josef Stalin that involved widespread ethnic cleansing of ethnic Ukrainians in Soviet Ukraine.
..
In 1947, the Jammu Massacre took place. The event has been described as ethnic cleansing of Muslims in the Jammu region of Jammu and Kashmir.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on February 28, 2022, 02:12:17 AM
Now that the Ukraine invasion is probing to be a series of screw-ups by the Russian military, I wonder if Trump will finally stop calling Putin a genius.

It's well known that the one thing Trump hates most is a loser, and I have to imagine he will abandon his buddy Putin the moment it looks like he might be associated with losing.

I'll be watching the news to see the first signs of Trump doing a 180 and claiming he hardly knew the guy.  ::)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on February 28, 2022, 04:02:05 AM
https://www.theburningplatform.com/2022/02/27/report-from-an-american-in-ukraine/

Different point of view from most.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 28, 2022, 05:41:02 AM
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/27/western-media-coverage-ukraine-russia-invasion-criticism
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on February 28, 2022, 05:46:43 AM
https://www.theburningplatform.com/2022/02/27/report-from-an-american-in-ukraine/

Different point of view from most.

I stopped watching after 40 seconds.
I don't see the invasion as not succeeding because infrastrructure is still standing.  I see it as not succeeding because they haven't taken a few major cities despite trying.  Despite everyone thinking Russia would roll over Ukraine. 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Iceman on February 28, 2022, 01:30:36 PM
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/27/western-media-coverage-ukraine-russia-invasion-criticism

I read this yesterday and it was, admittedly, a sad reminded of how short my memory is…
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 01, 2022, 09:05:16 AM
Submitted without comment...

(https://i.ibb.co/R3mh81y/HTPHUkraine.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on March 11, 2022, 01:51:20 AM
I wonder if this guy is still alive. It was posted several days ago on Plebbit.

(https://i.imgur.com/bHsGDL6.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 14, 2022, 04:37:53 PM
This’ll sort it out!

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/14/elon-musk-challenges-vladimir-putin-to-face-him-in-single-combat-16272014/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on March 14, 2022, 10:21:11 PM
This’ll sort it out!

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/14/elon-musk-challenges-vladimir-putin-to-face-him-in-single-combat-16272014/
... that's just dumb.  Musk would be beaten to a pulp.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on March 14, 2022, 11:46:03 PM
This’ll sort it out!

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/14/elon-musk-challenges-vladimir-putin-to-face-him-in-single-combat-16272014/
... that's just dumb.  Musk would be beaten to a pulp.

I don't know. Elon is way bigger, younger and can probably download any fighting style into his brain.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on March 15, 2022, 11:50:42 AM
This’ll sort it out!

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/14/elon-musk-challenges-vladimir-putin-to-face-him-in-single-combat-16272014/
... that's just dumb.  Musk would be beaten to a pulp.

I don't know. Elon is way bigger, younger and can probably download any fighting style into his brain.

Putin was killing people back when Elon was still in grade school.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 15, 2022, 03:05:27 PM
... that's just dumb.  Musk would be beaten to a pulp.
Don't say that like it's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on March 15, 2022, 05:52:24 PM
... that's just dumb.  Musk would be beaten to a pulp.
Don't say that like it's a bad thing.

It is a bad thing.
If he survives, he'll whine about it for decades.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 16, 2022, 07:59:28 PM
False flag coming?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRJ4umS7dJA&t=310s
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on March 16, 2022, 08:47:19 PM
False flag coming?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRJ4umS7dJA&t=310s

More hating America Propaganda from a communist sympathizer posted by a communist sympathizer.

This man's hateful rant is reflection on himself, particularly the "small penis energy" he talks about. Google this person, he's a loser.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on March 21, 2022, 07:27:02 AM
If they really wanted to make some big city moves, NK would just start artillerying SK, China would take Taiwan, and Russia would keep rolling their tanks to Paris. And there's not a lot anyone could do about it.

Well this aged poorly. Russian tanks appear to be made out of cardboard.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on March 21, 2022, 08:37:50 PM
Russian tanks appear to be made out of cardboard.
I wouldn't necessarily criticize the quality of the Russian tanks.  One should take into account the vast resources put into a number of weapons systems whose sole function in life is to kill armored vehicles, especially tanks.  With man portable systems like Javelin and NLAW, who needs an A-10?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: xasop on March 21, 2022, 08:42:21 PM
It's a testament to enduring human stupidity that Putin has done more in the past month to motivate the West to reduce its reliance on unsustainable energy sources than half a century of climate science.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on March 22, 2022, 07:33:37 PM
It's a testament to enduring human stupidity that Putin has done more in the past month to motivate the West to reduce its reliance on unsustainable energy sources than half a century of climate science.

Maybe that was what the war on terror was about?  Make the Middle East so hated, we refuse their oil?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 23, 2022, 12:36:17 PM
Muh Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toGMjVVhkiM
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on March 23, 2022, 01:36:39 PM
Virtue signaling about the war in Ukraine:

(https://i.ibb.co/zPsD957/rn-Zl-JGXa7-GMl.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on March 23, 2022, 05:09:39 PM
Muh Ukraine

Who is that guy in the video? And why should I listen to him?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on March 23, 2022, 08:49:15 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/up-to-40000-russian-soldiers-killed-wounded-captured-or-mia-nato-says.html

Quote
between 7,000 and 15,000 Russian troops have died

To put this into perspective, 2,401 US troops were killed over the course of 20 years in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 25, 2022, 03:35:10 PM
With peacekeeping operations like this one, who needs wars?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 25, 2022, 05:49:55 PM
This is peace keeping 101 mild version. The west and EU are scared sheetess from an economy no bigger than Texas. That's one BIG STICK !

Germany, Austria, and Hungary are acting as ‘brakes’ now, running for the hills. Arab countries have already said no mass to any sanctions.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on March 25, 2022, 07:48:23 PM
This is peace keeping 101 mild version. The west and EU are scared sheetess from an economy no bigger than Texas. That's one BIG STICK !

Germany, Austria, and Hungary are acting as ‘brakes’ now, running for the hills. Arab countries have already said no mass to any sanctions.

(https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/final-PR-2.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 25, 2022, 08:23:00 PM
Russia told Poland, pay in rubles or no gas for you bitchez. Poland will crumble to mini texas gas and oil..lol Oh and the largest most sophisticated Nuke inventory in da world.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 25, 2022, 09:03:04 PM
Russia told Poland, pay in rubles or no gas for you bitchez.
That's not quite what happened. Putin told Gazprom to make it happen. Gazprom asked. Predictably, they got told that's not how contracts work.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: xasop on March 25, 2022, 09:16:34 PM
That's not quite what happened. Putin told Gazprom to make it happen. Gazprom asked. Predictably, they got told that's not how contracts work.
I think we're well past the point of Putin giving the slightest fuck about international law.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 25, 2022, 09:22:12 PM
I think we're well past the point of Putin giving the slightest fuck about international law.
Of course; but so far there is no indication that anyone will accept this unilateral change of contract.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on March 25, 2022, 10:18:29 PM
This is peace keeping 101 mild version. The west and EU are scared sheetess from an economy no bigger than Texas. That's one BIG STICK !
Not nearly as  big a stick as their nearly 6000 nuclear warheads.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 26, 2022, 12:43:25 AM
Russia has em where they want them. LNG is no walk in the park. It's compressed gas 600 to 1 and not really that safe. Now you need plants and pipelines to turn it back into natural gas while sending it on it's way. Will take years to build the seaport infrastructure. Russia doesn't need to import much from the west or EU. China is supplying most their needs. Germany who has already said No Mass sells em machinery and parts as they gobble gas. You could find new suppliers. These sanctions will backfire on the west and eu
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on March 26, 2022, 01:16:26 AM
Russia has em where they want them. LNG is no walk in the park. It's compressed gas 600 to 1 and not really that safe. Now you need plants and pipelines to turn it back into natural gas while sending it on it's way. Will take years to build the seaport infrastructure. Russia doesn't need to import much from the west or EU. China is supplying most their needs. Germany who has already said No Mass sells em machinery and parts as they gobble gas. You could find new suppliers. These sanctions will backfire on the west and eu

The US has sold LNG to the EU for decades. The new deal just means several billion more cubic meters of LNG (at a higher cost than Russian gas). The US is making a lot of money on this deal and no new infrastructure is needed. The only difference is more boats will be traveling across the Atlantic and... that's it.

It also means overall higher pressure for the EU to move away from fossil fuels in general. Once that happens, Russia, alongside the middle east, will die a little death. Then the West can finally move on from pretending these shithole countries actually matter beyond some black fluid they happen to have beneath their feet.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on March 26, 2022, 01:17:31 AM
Once Russia is done "demilitarizing" and "de-nazifing" Ukraine, I can't help but to wonder who is going to rebuild all the infrastructure, industry, housing, etc. that is currently being destroyed.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 26, 2022, 02:54:40 AM
Russia has em where they want them. LNG is no walk in the park. It's compressed gas 600 to 1 and not really that safe. Now you need plants and pipelines to turn it back into natural gas while sending it on it's way. Will take years to build the seaport infrastructure. Russia doesn't need to import much from the west or EU. China is supplying most their needs. Germany who has already said No Mass sells em machinery and parts as they gobble gas. You could find new suppliers. These sanctions will backfire on the west and eu

The US has sold LNG to the EU for decades. The new deal just means several billion more cubic meters of LNG (at a higher cost than Russian gas). The US is making a lot of money on this deal and no new infrastructure is needed. The only difference is more boats will be traveling across the Atlantic and... that's it.

It also means overall higher pressure for the EU to move away from fossil fuels in general. Once that happens, Russia, alongside the middle east, will die a little death. Then the West can finally move on from pretending these shithole countries actually matter beyond some black fluid they happen to have beneath their feet.

You might want to remove the your head from el kester, you are totally mistaken.  2030 is the best they hope for..hope a dope

https://www.naturalgasintel.com/can-the-united-states-really-send-more-lng-to-europe/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 26, 2022, 02:58:10 AM
Once Russia is done "demilitarizing" and "de-nazifing" Ukraine, I can't help but to wonder who is going to rebuild all the infrastructure, industry, housing, etc. that is currently being destroyed.

No one ever really rebuilds these places, besides several billion peeps will be dead from the vaccine and new bio weapons they release.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 26, 2022, 03:22:02 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/up-to-40000-russian-soldiers-killed-wounded-captured-or-mia-nato-says.html

Quote
between 7,000 and 15,000 Russian troops have died

To put this into perspective, 2,401 US troops were killed over the course of 20 years in Afghanistan.

too much lies and western media, you'll never learn.

More than 1,300 servicemen have been killed and nearly 4,000 injured in the offensive in Ukraine, the Russian military says

https://www.rt.com/russia/552708-ukraine-conflict-military-casualties/

This is why one must look at both sides because satan is a liar.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on March 26, 2022, 03:30:44 AM
You might want to remove the your head from el kester, you are totally mistaken.  2030 is the best they hope for..hope a dope

https://www.naturalgasintel.com/can-the-united-states-really-send-more-lng-to-europe/

I see you're a huge fan of linking articles you didn't read and that disagree with the point you're trying to make. Within a year, they're cutting gas imports from Russia by 2/3. That's an enormous hit to Russia's already devastated shithole economy. By this time next year they'll be lucky if they still have breadlines to stand in.

It hardly matters. By this time next year, Putin will be dead and this will all blow over as the Russian government is reorganized.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/up-to-40000-russian-soldiers-killed-wounded-captured-or-mia-nato-says.html

Quote
between 7,000 and 15,000 Russian troops have died

To put this into perspective, 2,401 US troops were killed over the course of 20 years in Afghanistan.

too much lies and western media, you'll never learn.

More than 1,300 servicemen have been killed and nearly 4,000 injured in the offensive in Ukraine, the Russian military says

https://www.rt.com/russia/552708-ukraine-conflict-military-casualties/

This is why one must look at both sides because satan is a liar.

So, at best, a shithole fighting some other shithole lost 1300 people in a single month vs the US losing 2400 over the course of 20 years. Fascinating.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on March 26, 2022, 06:11:04 AM
Russia has em where they want them. LNG is no walk in the park. It's compressed gas 600 to 1 and not really that safe. Now you need plants and pipelines to turn it back into natural gas while sending it on it's way. Will take years to build the seaport infrastructure. Russia doesn't need to import much from the west or EU. China is supplying most their needs. Germany who has already said No Mass sells em machinery and parts as they gobble gas. You could find new suppliers. These sanctions will backfire on the west and eu

The US has sold LNG to the EU for decades. The new deal just means several billion more cubic meters of LNG (at a higher cost than Russian gas). The US is making a lot of money on this deal and no new infrastructure is needed. The only difference is more boats will be traveling across the Atlantic and... that's it.

It also means overall higher pressure for the EU to move away from fossil fuels in general. Once that happens, Russia, alongside the middle east, will die a little death. Then the West can finally move on from pretending these shithole countries actually matter beyond some black fluid they happen to have beneath their feet.

You might want to remove the your head from el kester, you are totally mistaken.  2030 is the best they hope for..hope a dope

https://www.naturalgasintel.com/can-the-united-states-really-send-more-lng-to-europe/

Norway is, of course, happy to sell Natural Gas to Europe. :D
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on March 27, 2022, 12:45:30 AM
You might want to remove the your head from el kester, you are totally mistaken.  2030 is the best they hope for..hope a dope

https://www.naturalgasintel.com/can-the-united-states-really-send-more-lng-to-europe/

I see you're a huge fan of linking articles you didn't read and that disagree with the point you're trying to make. Within a year, they're cutting gas imports from Russia by 2/3. That's an enormous hit to Russia's already devastated shithole economy. By this time next year they'll be lucky if they still have breadlines to stand in.

It hardly matters. By this time next year, Putin will be dead and this will all blow over as the Russian government is reorganized.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/up-to-40000-russian-soldiers-killed-wounded-captured-or-mia-nato-says.html

Quote
between 7,000 and 15,000 Russian troops have died

To put this into perspective, 2,401 US troops were killed over the course of 20 years in Afghanistan.

too much lies and western media, you'll never learn.

More than 1,300 servicemen have been killed and nearly 4,000 injured in the offensive in Ukraine, the Russian military says

https://www.rt.com/russia/552708-ukraine-conflict-military-casualties/

This is why one must look at both sides because satan is a liar.

So, at best, a shithole fighting some other shithole lost 1300 people in a single month vs the US losing 2400 over the course of 20 years. Fascinating.

Putin would tip the sanction scale, not so much the death scale.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ROI/comments/tl3no9/10_wars_6_million_deaths_0_sanctions/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on March 27, 2022, 01:49:46 AM
You might want to remove the your head from el kester, you are totally mistaken.  2030 is the best they hope for..hope a dope

https://www.naturalgasintel.com/can-the-united-states-really-send-more-lng-to-europe/

I see you're a huge fan of linking articles you didn't read and that disagree with the point you're trying to make. Within a year, they're cutting gas imports from Russia by 2/3. That's an enormous hit to Russia's already devastated shithole economy. By this time next year they'll be lucky if they still have breadlines to stand in.

It hardly matters. By this time next year, Putin will be dead and this will all blow over as the Russian government is reorganized.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/23/up-to-40000-russian-soldiers-killed-wounded-captured-or-mia-nato-says.html

Quote
between 7,000 and 15,000 Russian troops have died

To put this into perspective, 2,401 US troops were killed over the course of 20 years in Afghanistan.

too much lies and western media, you'll never learn.

More than 1,300 servicemen have been killed and nearly 4,000 injured in the offensive in Ukraine, the Russian military says

https://www.rt.com/russia/552708-ukraine-conflict-military-casualties/

This is why one must look at both sides because satan is a liar.

So, at best, a shithole fighting some other shithole lost 1300 people in a single month vs the US losing 2400 over the course of 20 years. Fascinating.

Putin would tip the sanction scale, not so much the death scale.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ROI/comments/tl3no9/10_wars_6_million_deaths_0_sanctions/

What were the 10 wars? I count 3 and am missing 7. Not giving those folks pictured a bye (maybe Laura & Michelle) but not sure what the other ones are.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on March 27, 2022, 01:57:17 AM
https://www.infoplease.com/history/us/major-military-operations-since-world-war-ii

Here you go Stack.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on March 27, 2022, 03:05:01 AM
https://www.infoplease.com/history/us/major-military-operations-since-world-war-ii

Here you go Stack.
I think he might have been referring to this list of wars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on March 27, 2022, 09:45:03 AM
https://www.infoplease.com/history/us/major-military-operations-since-world-war-ii

Here you go Stack.
I think he might have been referring to this list of wars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present)

No. Jman linked to a post showing a picture of every president (and HRC) since 1988 and captioned “10 wars and 6 million dead” or something.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on March 27, 2022, 02:18:32 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/ROI/comments/tl3no9/10_wars_6_million_deaths_0_sanctions/

So? The US is powerful and we do what we want. Russia is weak and we will not allow it to do what it wants. It's that simple. We collapsed the USSR because it was annoying and in the way. Russia should have learned to stay in its lane. Putin will be strung out like Gaddafi soon and it'll be his own fault.

Russia is unable to accept its own weakness; it's led by a man who is also unable to accept his own weakness and mortality.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on March 27, 2022, 03:07:48 PM
https://www.infoplease.com/history/us/major-military-operations-since-world-war-ii

Here you go Stack.
I think he might have been referring to this list of wars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present)

No. Jman linked to a post showing a picture of every president (and HRC) since 1988 and captioned “10 wars and 6 million dead” or something.
Right.  Russia was involved in at least 10 wars during that time and zero sanctions were imposed by those presidents.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on March 28, 2022, 05:18:59 PM
https://www.infoplease.com/history/us/major-military-operations-since-world-war-ii

Here you go Stack.

Aww, I see. I was thinking of the wars the US initiated.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 04, 2022, 02:27:21 AM
Ruble has recovered, Germany is about to go drunk with inflation as most the world as fiat dies globally. Meanwhile Russia has more gold than the US and coupled with China they control all physical gold now with 32,000 tons combined. I hope Biden didn't sell off the vault like the strategic oil reserves.

https://kingworldnews.com/russia-holds-more-gold-than-us-russia-and-china-now-possess-a-jaw-dropping-32000-tonnes-of-gold/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on April 04, 2022, 04:49:53 AM
Ruble has recovered, Germany is about to go drunk with inflation as most the world as fiat dies globally. Meanwhile Russia has more gold than the US and coupled with China they control all physical gold now with 32,000 tons combined. I hope Biden didn't sell off the vault like the strategic oil reserves.

https://kingworldnews.com/russia-holds-more-gold-than-us-russia-and-china-now-possess-a-jaw-dropping-32000-tonnes-of-gold/

Are you in support of Russia and the invasion?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 04, 2022, 06:09:23 PM
I support JESUS.

I shop at Walmart so I guess you could say I support China :0) but don't we all in some form?

I don't vote and haven't for 30 years, Politicians are as corrupt as satan. I haven't watched TV and commercials for close to 20 years. I don't Facebook, twit, apple googley or any other controlling crap. I didn't  Nam, I went to college and met/hugged Hanoi Jane, she was HOT while smelling sooo sweet. I foster dad and had my brain shrunk by the State of Cali, so I could. They found me very acceptable.

I like alternative media and hate the deceit were fed by most social media outlets. They all sold out to satan.

The earth is FLAT, I've seen it.

Is Russian Vodka Good? If so, I support that. 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on April 04, 2022, 06:35:31 PM
I support JESUS.

Was Jesus Russian? Would Jesus invade Ukraine?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on April 04, 2022, 07:55:49 PM
I support JESUS.

Dude, we've discussed this before. That voice in your head is not Jesus, it's your own delusional anger, fear,  self-righteousness and darkness.

By the way, Satan publishes a lot of information in the alternative media as well as the mainstream media.

You're just another pawn that Putin is using to slowly take control of this country just like he did in Venezuela. While you sit there and pontificate about your self-righteous Jesus power, corrupt politicians are taking power all around you. Seems like you're a really big man fighting Satan. What about fighting government corruption and Injustice in this world?

We're out here protecting your freedom to spread your judgment and condemnation on everyone around you.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 04, 2022, 08:31:41 PM
Russia is a shining beacon of civilization and beauty. Anyone who has been there will attest to that (or else).
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 04, 2022, 10:21:59 PM
I support JESUS.

Was Jesus Russian? Would Jesus invade Ukraine?

Jesus is GOD and yes he will invade Ukraine, one of the most corrupt countries in the world with the sword of truth in his mouth. You best have repented,  The gates are pretty damn narrow.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on April 04, 2022, 10:28:38 PM
I support JESUS.

Was Jesus Russian? Would Jesus invade Ukraine?

Jesus is GOD and yes he will invade Ukraine, one of the most corrupt countries in the world with the sword of truth in his mouth. You best have repented,  The gates are pretty damn narrow.

Isn't God God? Or are you referring to the Trinity thing? Jesus seems more of just his millennial offspring who thinks everyone should get a trophy.

So Jesus invaded Ukraine? Is Putin actually Jesus? I thought Dad was the wrathful one and the kid was more the peace, love, and understanding hippie type.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 04, 2022, 10:54:59 PM
I support JESUS.

Dude, we've discussed this before. That voice in your head is not Jesus, it's your own delusional anger, fear,  self-righteousness and darkness.

By the way, Satan publishes a lot of information in the alternative media as well as the mainstream media.

You're just another pawn that Putin is using to slowly take control of this country just like he did in Venezuela. While you sit there and pontificate about your self-righteous Jesus power, corrupt politicians are taking power all around you. Seems like you're a really big man fighting Satan. What about fighting government corruption and Injustice in this world?

We're out here protecting your freedom to spread your judgment and condemnation on everyone around you.

My freedom came from Jesus dieing on the cross, you game me nuttin. You spread death and destruction right?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on April 04, 2022, 11:33:18 PM
I support JESUS.

Was Jesus Russian? Would Jesus invade Ukraine?

Jesus is GOD and yes he will invade Ukraine, one of the most corrupt countries in the world with the sword of truth in his mouth. You best have repented,  The gates are pretty damn narrow.
Would you say that Russia is more corrupt or less corrupt than Ukraine?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 04, 2022, 11:51:35 PM
I support JESUS.

Was Jesus Russian? Would Jesus invade Ukraine?



Jesus is GOD and yes he will invade Ukraine, one of the most corrupt countries in the world with the sword of truth in his mouth. You best have repented,  The gates are pretty damn narrow.
Would you say that Russia is more corrupt or less corrupt than Ukraine?

https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/ukraine-is-the-most-corrupt-globalist-owned-country-in-the-world-its-literally-the-cabals-headquarters/

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Corruption is widespread in Ukrainian society.[1][2] In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations of the world—alongside Colombia and Brazil.[3]

Stop with your nonsense. 10% to the big guy
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on April 05, 2022, 12:01:14 AM
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Corruption is widespread in Ukrainian society.[1][2] In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations of the world—alongside Colombia and Brazil.[3]
So why hasn't Jesus (Russia) invaded Colombia or Brazil yet?

Stop with your nonsense. 10% to the big guy
Why do you think the Big Guy wants 10% of anything that I have? ???

Or do you mean 10% to the church (as if there's no corruption going on there)?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 05, 2022, 12:04:46 AM
Corruption is widespread in Ukrainian society. In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations of the world—alongside Colombia and Brazil.
My dude, that was before the Maidan uprising, the very same event that Russia is trying to undo. By supporting their invasion, you're proposing that the corruption in Ukraine should be restored. You have fallen for Satan's demonic tricks, hook, line, and sinker.

Why do you think the Big Guy wants 10% of anything that I have? ???
He's referencing the Hunter conspiracy theory, like the Satanic puppet he is. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10254295/What-Big-Guy-Joe-Biden-said-Hunters-business-partner-Tony-Bobulinski-discreet-hotel-meeting.html
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 05, 2022, 12:29:34 AM
Corruption is widespread in Ukrainian society. In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations of the world—alongside Colombia and Brazil.
My dude, that was before the Maidan uprising, the very same event that Russia is trying to undo. By supporting their invasion, you're proposing that the corruption in Ukraine should be restored. You have fallen for Satan's demonic tricks, hook, line, and sinker.

Why do you think the Big Guy wants 10% of anything that I have? ???
He's referencing the Hunter conspiracy theory, like the Satanic puppet he is. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10254295/What-Big-Guy-Joe-Biden-said-Hunters-business-partner-Tony-Bobulinski-discreet-hotel-meeting.html

You cherry pick the older opinion not the lastest. There are 10's of publications out there of their current corruption.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on April 05, 2022, 06:22:40 AM
Corruption is widespread in Ukrainian society. In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations of the world—alongside Colombia and Brazil.
My dude, that was before the Maidan uprising, the very same event that Russia is trying to undo. By supporting their invasion, you're proposing that the corruption in Ukraine should be restored. You have fallen for Satan's demonic tricks, hook, line, and sinker.

Why do you think the Big Guy wants 10% of anything that I have? ???
He's referencing the Hunter conspiracy theory, like the Satanic puppet he is. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10254295/What-Big-Guy-Joe-Biden-said-Hunters-business-partner-Tony-Bobulinski-discreet-hotel-meeting.html

You cherry pick the older opinion not the lastest. There are 10's of publications out there of their current corruption.

I googled "most corrupt countries", first link, not cherry-picked, as of 2022.

Russia ranks #46. Ukraine doesn't make the top 50. It's at #63:

Most Corrupt Countries 2022 (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-corrupt-countries)
(https://i.imgur.com/umjRJ9i.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/6NIg3B6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/3X3o0pk.png)

In another ranking from the Wharton School, Russia is #5 most corrupt:

(https://i.imgur.com/qCUPbe3.png)

I think your Jesus is mistaken.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 05, 2022, 08:52:13 AM
You cherry pick the older opinion not the lastest. There are 10's of publications out there of their current corruption.
Yes, it's a work in progress. Nonetheless, restoring evil to the region is not going to help.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 12, 2022, 06:19:19 PM
RT brought on watch for a false flag coming. We had Bucha nonsense which failed as Russia pulled out troops days before and Bucha was a russian sympathizer its alleged. Now we get Mariupol chemical attack. More fake news? why?

 https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-marine-unit-in-mariupol-fighting-update-russian-military

RT ran news that Russian troops have had control of Mariupol for 5 weeks+ and that very high level military and political people are trapped inside the city. Some may even be Western/EU troops according to news. No foreign troops in mariupol..hmmm I pretty sure Putin is NEVER going to allow UN inspectors in to free these peeps. (fake chemmy or not) No Putin will use these peeps to show the world the lies, if they are true?

Ukraine has no more bullets in their revolver. They've played all the cards they have, waiting on the west and EU to run in and save the day?

https://www.rt.com/news/553772-pentagon-cant-confirm-mariupol-attack/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 14, 2022, 07:51:20 PM
A Russian missile cruiser magically exploded all on its own. At least, that's what Russia would prefer you believe instead of it getting hit by a missile.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 14, 2022, 08:34:37 PM
A Russian missile cruiser magically exploded all on its own. At least, that's what Russia would prefer you believe instead of it getting hit by a missile.
I really hope the Russian military vessel actually went to fuck itself
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Kokorikos on April 15, 2022, 07:49:03 AM
A Russian missile cruiser magically exploded all on its own. At least, that's what Russia would prefer you believe instead of it getting hit by a missile.

It is still unconfirmed if it was hit or if it was caused by a fire on board.
I think that both alternatives are embarrassing for Russia.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 15, 2022, 01:32:28 PM
Russia sunk its warship to own the libs.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61114843

The cosmic meme of a ship named Moscow blowing up due to Russian incompetence and sinking is one that is almost too good to be true. I almost wouldn't believe it had Russia not confirmed it themselves.

Also: "A furious ex-MP, Vladimir Bortko, said the sinking of the Moskva was grounds for war" Are Russian ex-MPs not aware that they're... already at war...?

Additionally:

"Russia says it has hit a plant making anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles outside the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv" -BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61101906)

Looks like Russia is trying to make sure none of its other ships magically blow up all on their own, too.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 15, 2022, 01:51:01 PM
Also: "A furious ex-MP, Vladimir Bortko, said the sinking of the Moskva was grounds for war" Are Russian ex-MPs not aware that they're... already at war...?
They're not. It's a special whatchamacallit, remember?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 15, 2022, 02:00:09 PM
Also: "A furious ex-MP, Vladimir Bortko, said the sinking of the Moskva was grounds for war" Are Russian ex-MPs not aware that they're... already at war...?
They're not. It's a special whatchamacallit, remember?

Ah right, of course, a special peacekeeping mission. There to keep the peace. Enforce the peace. It will be peaceful. Involuntarily peaceful.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 15, 2022, 02:35:57 PM
Ah right, of course, a special peacekeeping mission. There to keep the peace. Enforce the peace. It will be peaceful. Involuntarily peaceful.
(https://i.imgur.com/YmrzUTD.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: junker on April 15, 2022, 03:31:14 PM
Also: "A furious ex-MP, Vladimir Bortko, said the sinking of the Moskva was grounds for war" Are Russian ex-MPs not aware that they're... already at war...?
They're not. It's a special whatchamacallit, remember?

Ah right, of course, a special peacekeeping mission. There to keep the peace. Enforce the peace. It will be peaceful. Involuntarily peaceful.


Quote from: Peacemaker
I cherish peace with all my heart. I don’t care how many men, women, and children I need to kill to get it.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 15, 2022, 06:13:35 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/russian-long-range-bombers-strike-ukraine-1st-time-war

"Ukrainian defense ministry spokesman Oleksandr Motuzyanyk said Friday that bombs were dropped by Tu-22M3 aircraft over positions in the port city of Mariupol. "

(https://assets.zerohedge.com/s3fs-public/styles/inline_image_mobile/public/inline-images/Tu-22M3.jpg?itok=36ZiKp6w)

Mariupol will not be lost..Putin is containing the high level NATO boys and politicians.

Just ask this guy !

https://www.rt.com/russia/553933-british-captive-mariupol-ukraine-reality/

(https://cdni.russiatoday.com/files/2022.04/l/62596e9f2030275ab15cc0e5.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 15, 2022, 06:38:06 PM
Imagine still going for the "Russia stronk" meme after they lose one of their best warships to a country that has no navy.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on April 15, 2022, 08:21:29 PM
Can you imagine what the rest of the world would be doing to Russia right now if it wasn't sitting on a stockpile of nukes?

They would have gotten kicked right back across the border and all their ships within range of Ukraine sunk in the first week. Any Russian plane coming close to the border would be flaming wreckage.

Putin sure has done a good job of showing the world just how outclassed they really are.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2022, 09:35:36 PM
Imagine still going for the "Russia stronk" meme after they lose one of their best warships to a country that has no navy.

They aren't just fighting Ukraine. Ukraine is receiving billions of $ in money and weapons from NATO and US-allied countries to fight Russia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War

It's in the tens of billions if you count all that up.

Recent from the US:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-13/biden-announces-800-million-weapons-package-for-ukraine

Quote
President Joe Biden is sending Ukraine $800 million in new firepower -- including artillery, helicopters, ammunition and other military hardware that will test the limits of how far aid can go without drawing the U.S. directly into the war.

-

Biden’s announcement will be the biggest test yet of how far the U.S. can go in supplying arms without spurring a Russian response. The package will for the first time include 18 155 mm Howitzer artillery systems, Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said Wednesday.

The U.S. will also send 10 counter-artillery radar systems, 200 M113 armored personnel carriers, 100 Humvees and 300 more Switchblade drones, according to a list released by the Pentagon. Ukrainians will require some training on radars and artillery systems, Kirby said.

The Pentagon will also send unmanned surface vessels for coastal defense as well as individual chemical-biological protective suits and detection systems.

The new shipment will add to more than $2.4 billion in security assistance the U.S. has provided to Ukraine since Biden took office last year, including $1.7 billion since Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24.

Test the limits of direct warfare with Russia. Smart.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on April 16, 2022, 09:51:53 PM
Russia got what they wanted. NATO isn't interfering directly. It's not anyone else's fault that their military sucks ass.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 16, 2022, 10:07:35 PM
Russia got what they wanted. NATO isn't interfering directly. It's not anyone else's fault that their military sucks ass.

That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever seen. I'm American and Russia has a devastating nuclear sub fleet, that can sit right off my coasts not detected. They can literally dispose of life as we know it. Only an idiot would underestimate an opponent.

It's getting VERY close to game time. Grab your nut sack.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on April 16, 2022, 10:30:17 PM
Russia has a devastating nuclear sub fleet, that can sit right off my coasts not detected.

Yes, and if they were actually that crazy they could just threaten nukes for anything.
"Give us this trade deal or else"
"Move US military bases out of Europe or else" etc...

Acquiescing to their every demand would be just as dangerous as marching US soldiers to Moscow.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 16, 2022, 11:16:11 PM
Russia got what they wanted. NATO isn't interfering directly. It's not anyone else's fault that their military sucks ass.

That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever seen. I'm American and Russia has a devastating nuclear sub fleet, that can sit right off my coasts not detected. They can literally dispose of life as we know it. Only an idiot would underestimate an opponent.

It's getting VERY close to game time. Grab your nut sack.

Given that Russia can't even hold a city 50 miles from its border, you really think that their nuclear arsenal is capable of anything? Nuclear weapons are incredibly expensive to maintain. Submarines even more so. Russia can't afford to keep a single aircraft carrier operational annually. Their nuclear arsenal is likewise just a bunch of numbers on paper. They're not real. It costs the US approximately 50 billion dollars to maintain nuclear capabilities. That's almost the entirety of Russia's military budget.

Russia keeps threatening use of nuclear weapons. "We'll nuke Ukraine!" ... "We'll nuke Finland if they join NATO!" ... Well, guess what. I don't see any nukes. Russia a bad joke and it's time we deliver the punchline to their face.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on April 16, 2022, 11:34:56 PM
Given that Russia can't even hold a city 50 miles from its border, you really think that their nuclear arsenal is capable of anything? Nuclear weapons are incredibly expensive to maintain. Submarines even more so. Russia can't afford to keep a single aircraft carrier operational annually. Their nuclear arsenal is likewise just a bunch of numbers on paper. They're not real. It costs the US approximately 50 billion dollars to maintain nuclear capabilities. That's almost the entirety of Russia's military budget.

Russia keeps threatening use of nuclear weapons. "We'll nuke Ukraine!" ... "We'll nuke Finland if they join NATO!" ... Well, guess what. I don't see any nukes. Russia a bad joke and it's time we deliver the punchline to their face.

Let's not do that either, though. You know, just in case they actually do work. If even 10% of them work it would be a bad time.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 16, 2022, 11:47:02 PM
Let's not do that either, though. You know, just in case they actually do work. If even 10% of them work it would be a bad time.

Fortunately our defense systems are decades ahead of Russia. This entire war is in part due to Russia getting mad about those very same defense systems being stationed in Romania and Poland, drastically reducing (and possibly eliminating) their first strike capabilities. Russia knows it probably can't do anything anymore and it has no way to 100% test it without risking itself getting obliterated in the process.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on April 17, 2022, 01:33:19 AM
I'm American and Russia has a devastating nuclear sub fleet, that can sit right off my coasts not detected. They can literally dispose of life as we know it. Only an idiot would underestimate an opponent.
Yes, Putin would be an idiot to underestimate America's devastating nuclear capabilities.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on April 17, 2022, 11:57:12 AM
Test the limits of direct warfare with Russia. Smart.

Putin is the one testing the limits here.

Do you think the entire world should just sit back and let a crazed dictator invade country after country? That's not smart.

Only a moron would think he's going to stop at Ukraine. He's already threatening more countries.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on April 17, 2022, 01:32:37 PM
When Russia says to you, "You're not allowed to join NATO." You know you need to join NATO.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 17, 2022, 02:30:23 PM
Putin says Happy Easter...Kinda

"In its ceasefire proposal, the Russian military said that the remaining troops are in a “hopeless situation, with virtually no food and water,” citing the contents of hundreds of radio intercepts on Saturday alone. The holed-up fighters allegedly “persistently request permission from the officials in Kiev to lay down their arms and surrender,” while the Ukrainian authorities “categorically forbid it under the threat of wartime executions,” Moscow claimed."

https://www.rt.com/russia/554005-russia-mariupol-surrender-terms/


When they surrender Mariupol today, Putin will have a Kangeroo court extract world wide knowledge of who was who inside.

Christ has Risen !

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on April 17, 2022, 04:58:06 PM
Putin says Happy Easter...Kinda
Orthodox Easter is next Sunday.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on April 17, 2022, 10:10:55 PM
Putin says Happy Easter...Kinda

"In its ceasefire proposal, the Russian military said that the remaining troops are in a “hopeless situation, with virtually no food and water,” citing the contents of hundreds of radio intercepts on Saturday alone. The holed-up fighters allegedly “persistently request permission from the officials in Kiev to lay down their arms and surrender,” while the Ukrainian authorities “categorically forbid it under the threat of wartime executions,” Moscow claimed."

https://www.rt.com/russia/554005-russia-mariupol-surrender-terms/


When they surrender Mariupol today, Putin will have a Kangeroo court extract world wide knowledge of who was who inside.

Christ has Risen !

Oh yay, more lies from Putin's propaganda news website.  I just don't understand why people worship men like him.  What is the attraction?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on April 17, 2022, 10:26:25 PM
Putin says Happy Easter...Kinda

"In its ceasefire proposal, the Russian military said that the remaining troops are in a “hopeless situation, with virtually no food and water,” citing the contents of hundreds of radio intercepts on Saturday alone. The holed-up fighters allegedly “persistently request permission from the officials in Kiev to lay down their arms and surrender,” while the Ukrainian authorities “categorically forbid it under the threat of wartime executions,” Moscow claimed."

https://www.rt.com/russia/554005-russia-mariupol-surrender-terms/


When they surrender Mariupol today, Putin will have a Kangeroo court extract world wide knowledge of who was who inside.

Christ has Risen !

Oh yay, more lies from Putin's propaganda news website.  I just don't understand why people worship men like him.  What is the attraction?
Power.  Determination.  Decisiveness.
Everything others lack.  They see him what they want to be.  And trust me, those people really want to be able to just shoot their boss and anyone else they feel is "lazy" or "incompetent".
Instead they're stuck at a dead end job they hate, working for a boss they hate, and can't make up their own fucking mind about anything except how much they wish they could make decisions.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on April 17, 2022, 11:14:13 PM
Oh yay, more lies from Putin's propaganda news website.  I just don't understand why people worship men like him.  What is the attraction?
It's called a cult of personality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: JSS on April 18, 2022, 11:37:04 AM
Oh yay, more lies from Putin's propaganda news website.  I just don't understand why people worship men like him.  What is the attraction?
It's called a cult of personality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

I understand the concept, I just can't see what the draw to men like Putin and Trump is. They don't look strong to me, they just look like assholes. Their power is entirely based on throwing other people under the bus and sacrificing them for their own personal gain. Why would anyone want to attach themselves to someone like that who is clearly just going to use you and throw you away the moment you're no longer useful to them?

Putin looks weak to me.  It's like conservatives think that eagerness to pull the trigger of a gun is strength, when it's just fear.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: xasop on April 18, 2022, 12:32:51 PM
I understand the concept, I just can't see what the draw to men like Putin and Trump is. They don't look strong to me, they just look like assholes. Their power is entirely based on throwing other people under the bus and sacrificing them for their own personal gain. Why would anyone want to attach themselves to someone like that who is clearly just going to use you and throw you away the moment you're no longer useful to them?
You just described every successful dictator in history.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 20, 2022, 03:46:10 PM
(https://assets.zerohedge.com/s3fs-public/styles/inline_image_mobile/public/inline-images/sarmat_0.jpg?itok=zw8-kbKR)

What is "kinetic impact energy"?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on April 20, 2022, 03:59:48 PM
(https://assets.zerohedge.com/s3fs-public/styles/inline_image_mobile/public/inline-images/sarmat_0.jpg?itok=zw8-kbKR)

What is "kinetic impact energy"?

Do you really not know or is this just another troll for Satan or Jesus or whatever?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on April 20, 2022, 07:49:27 PM
No please explain Dr., looks as big as Fatman.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on April 20, 2022, 10:38:42 PM
I don't know why you're posting a picture of a missile, but it's one of these:

By the end of the year (2021), the Russian military will conduct two test launches of its RS-28 Sarmat (NATO reporting name: SS-X-29), according to a source in the Russian defense industry. The liquid-fueled, MIRV-equipped (multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle) super-heavy intercontinental missile has been in development at the Makeye Rocket Design Bureau since 2009.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on April 21, 2022, 01:34:24 PM
It's the Satan-II missile and it's one of the only things keeping Putin alive. The biggest fear is now that Putin has been embarrassed by failing to take cities only 50 miles from his own border, he'll start using nukes. Like many authoritarians, he is a whiny manchild who hates looking like an idiot on the world stage. His entire identity is built around his own ego and failure does him more damage than you could hope to achieve by any other means. Imagine spending decades spinning this fantasy tale of being a strategic mastermind KGB agent and you blow it all away in only 2 months by telegraphing your incompetence to every corner of the world.

Our biggest concern should be the reports that his internal propaganda is still very strong and Russians genuinely believe he's destroying a Nazi regime in Ukraine. Doubly concerning that his propaganda has managed to turn Americans against their own government in favor of a country they've never stepped foot in.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on May 03, 2022, 01:57:45 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/03/europe/russia-ukraine-declaration-of-war-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

Putin may officially declare war on Ukraine soon, finally admitting to the war they've been waging for about two months now...
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on May 03, 2022, 06:12:58 PM
So instead of flooding somewhat trained soldiers into a meat grinder, they’re going to flood totally untrained soldiers into it.

There’s also this https://twitter.com/ohra_aho/status/1521464911515332608?s=21&t=nB2ivG5OVoOr3d2cKzvB9A

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on May 03, 2022, 09:16:31 PM
Apparently Putin is supposed to temporarily hand over power while having surgery.  If true, that would be the ideal time to do it.  "Complications" during surgery happen all the time, right?  :-X
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/putin-undergo-cancer-surgery-hand-over-power-report-1944927-2022-05-03
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on May 03, 2022, 10:34:19 PM
It looks like that dude is just a Putin clone. A possible upside is that he surely doesn't have manlet syndrome.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2022, 02:25:57 AM
Apparently Putin is supposed to temporarily hand over power while having surgery.  If true, that would be the ideal time to do it.  "Complications" during surgery happen all the time, right?  :-X
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/putin-undergo-cancer-surgery-hand-over-power-report-1944927-2022-05-03

Maybe he will accidentally fall out a window, during surgery.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on May 04, 2022, 07:16:45 AM
You're missing the bigger word there: Cancer.
Its possible he's in a later stage of cancer and thats what prompted the war.  The "I need to rebuild the USSR before I die, which i can now see."

He's gonna die sooner than he thought and he wants a legacy.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on May 04, 2022, 11:35:32 AM
You're missing the bigger word there: Cancer.
Its possible he's in a later stage of cancer and thats what prompted the war.  The "I need to rebuild the USSR before I die, which i can now see."

He's gonna die sooner than he thought and he wants a legacy.

And since Putin knows he's going to die anyway, he doesn't care if he destroys the whole world chasing his legacy.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on May 07, 2022, 07:38:13 PM
Dear Mr. Poopie Pants and cellar pusher man, Russian economy is vibrant while mine is collapsing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwc-XBjl1tc&t=242s
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 07, 2022, 07:54:06 PM
Russian economy is vibrant while mine is collapsing.
lmao when was the last time you've looked at the Russian economy? It wasn't vibrant before it imploded, and imploding didn't help.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on May 07, 2022, 08:17:21 PM
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=RUB&to=USD&view=2Y

ruble chart to dollar. They are killing it. Bank interest rates are down 17 to 14% with maybe GDP coming in 10% light, yet to be seen as Gov Fuel sales are up 80% 1st Q.

Now here in the state we are suckin so bad, inflation pushing 20% Brandon printing Trillions a day it seems and giving it away to a dead Ukraine for what? yeah the 10% big guy. Food fuel thru the roof.

https://www.rt.com/business/555097-russia-sanctions-recession-economist/

Oh and guess what, our gold was lent out, we own none. $ is worthless. Ruble backed by Gods Money

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 07, 2022, 08:18:52 PM
ruble chart to dollar
Have you considered looking into *why* that is? Their imports no longer exist, so the currency is strong. Hypothetically, at least - there isn't really much trade going on. That is no indicator of how well their economy is doing, nor is it going to last particularly long until they change course.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on May 07, 2022, 08:46:32 PM
Ive kept abreast of world economics for decades. Here's a chart of the dollar https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/TVC-DXY/

The ruble would be and is smoking the dollar as you see its extensive rise the last year +. Russia weened itself off the dollar for most but swift action. It mostly deals in Euro Yuan and Ruble.

The Fed is trapped and can't raise rates much more and regardless we can't afford the debt anyway. The world has caught on and is again purchasing a lot of gold to use as central reserves. The US dollar imo has seen the strength and may continue to see more as the world begins to try to settle their contractual dollar debts asap. This outs a strain on the buck and increases its value until suck time nations move into new financial platforms of trade. The buck is a weapon now, no one really wants it. We'll see a Yuan/gold backed like Ruble with maybe a Euro. The US will try some crypto funny coin to be able to print again like crazy. Don't expect it to be accepted.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on May 07, 2022, 09:27:01 PM
Ive kept abreast of world economics for decades.
Then you're aware that the US GDP is about 15 times bigger than Russia's, right?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on May 07, 2022, 11:02:08 PM
Ive kept abreast of world economics for decades.
Then you're aware that the US GDP is about 15 times bigger than Russia's, right?
You do realize the US GDP is a bunch of nonsense, right? Consisting of 300 million spenders who make squat and have an average income of 5 times that of a Russian, yet Russia is the leading WORLD exporter Nat Gas and Wheat let alone

"The nation is a leading producer of coal, diamonds, aluminum, asbestos, gemstones, diamonds, lime, lead, gypsum, iron ore, bauxite, gallium, boron, mica, natural gas, potash, platinum, oil, rare earth metals, pig iron, peat, nitrogen, cadmium, arsenic, magnesium, molybdenum, phosphate, sulfur, titanium sponge, silicon, uranium, tellurium, vanadium, tungsten, cobalt, graphite, silver, vermiculite, selenium, rhenium, copper, and gold."

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-are-the-major-natural-resources-of-russia.html

I would say they kick our ass pound for pound but most americans a soo fricken obese, they win any pound for pound !
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on May 11, 2022, 01:23:15 PM
"The nation is a leading producer of coal, diamonds, aluminum, asbestos, gemstones, diamonds, lime, lead, gypsum, iron ore, bauxite, gallium, boron, mica, natural gas, potash, platinum, oil, rare earth metals, pig iron, peat, nitrogen, cadmium, arsenic, magnesium, molybdenum, phosphate, sulfur, titanium sponge, silicon, uranium, tellurium, vanadium, tungsten, cobalt, graphite, silver, vermiculite, selenium, rhenium, copper, and gold."

Africa produces all of these raw resources as well. Are you going to start yammering on about the epic power of the African economy? Russia is a poor nation with no industrial power, it's why they export all of their raw resources instead of using them, because they quite simply can't use them. It's a shithole. I don't understand why you've decided to bask in the glorious shining shit that it is. I suggest you move there and spend a few days finding out just how much a shithole it is then come back and appreciate what you've been given in America (and sure as hell do not deserve!).

You should be so lucky we're not in Russia, as I'd be a commissar and I'd be executing people like you for posting anti-government propaganda.

In other news:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/natural-gas-prices-rise-in-europe-after-ukraine-cuts-flows-11652255011

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on May 14, 2022, 10:01:19 PM
If Ukrainian intelligence is to be believed, there is supposedly a military coup underway to remove Putin.
https://www.newsweek.com/coup-putin-russia-ukraine-general-cancer-kyrylo-budanov-1706685
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on May 15, 2022, 01:44:55 AM
Planar Moderator aka Rushy

On a mostly satanic site, great resume. I seriously doubt you'd be elected to much anywhere.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on May 15, 2022, 05:56:34 AM
Planar Moderator aka Rushy

On a mostly satanic site, great resume. I seriously doubt you'd be elected to much anywhere.

Does anyone actually get freely elected in Russia?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on May 16, 2022, 02:37:31 AM
Planar Moderator aka Rushy

On a mostly satanic site, great resume. I seriously doubt you'd be elected to much anywhere.

If I were a satanist I'd be busy posting missiles literally named "SATAN", glorifying the slaughter of human beings, laughing about Europe running out of energy and dying in the cold. Wait, that's you! You do that!

Enjoy hell, demonic scum. The Lord will burn you away from my great nation like the cancer you are.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Crudblud on May 16, 2022, 05:48:40 AM
How has this thread stayed in the Lounge of all places for so long?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on May 17, 2022, 02:27:38 AM
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/least-300-azov-fighters-surrender-russians-azovstal-plant-ending-lengthy-siege

Russia now controls all mariupol.  Peace was spread to the survivors.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on June 01, 2022, 03:25:58 PM
https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2022/05/us-sending-ukraine-advanced-rockets-kyiv-promises-not-fire-russia/367588/

Can't see how giving Ukraine rocket artillery with ~50 miles of range can go wrong.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on June 01, 2022, 04:12:20 PM
It really wouldn't be in their best interest to attack Russia itself as from the occasional ammo or fuel depot.  I'm pretty sure Ukraine knows that.

Also the triple 7's we've been giving them have enough range to attack cities in Russia from Kharkiv so it doesn't add much risk to Russian territory.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on June 02, 2022, 01:47:19 PM
It really wouldn't be in their best interest to attack Russia itself as from the occasional ammo or fuel depot.  I'm pretty sure Ukraine knows that.

Also the triple 7's we've been giving them have enough range to attack cities in Russia from Kharkiv so it doesn't add much risk to Russian territory.

Expecting a country being torn apart to act rationally is a mistake. Further, adding fuel to an already raging fire simply because it hasn't gotten out of hand yet is not a fantastic idea.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2022, 01:49:01 PM
The alternative seems to be appeasing Russia while it's led by an insane man - I would not expect for him to act rationally either. You could argue that non-involvement is an option, but that's largely the same as letting Russia grow bolder.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on June 02, 2022, 01:58:42 PM
The alternative seems to be appeasing Russia while it's led by an insane man - I would not expect for him to act rationally either. You could argue that non-involvement is an option, but that's largely the same as letting Russia grow bolder.

We have plenty of other weapons to lob into Ukraine that don't involve long range strike capability that Ukraine frankly doesn't need nor do they have the intelligence capacity to use on their own. What we're doing is giving a country weapons and intelligence to the point that we're already far too involved. There's a difference between increasing resistance to the Russian invasion versus fighting an ever more direct war with Russia itself.

We're walking a fine line where one side is a literal apocalypse and the other is letting one corrupt shithole heavily damage another. It's not fair to the Ukrainian people, but it's also not fair to the rest of the planet to antagonize an increasingly unstable nuclear nation. Appeasement isn't a naughty word we should never engage in. This isn't WWII where it's just some Nazis, planes and tanks, it's a possible nuclear exchange scenario where we back Russia into a corner so far that their government destabilizes. Putin may not be the most stable man around, but all it takes is one enraged general who thinks Putin is a coward who won't "fight for the Russian people" or whatever to pop shit off in such a way that we can't put the genie back in the bottle.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on June 02, 2022, 02:12:43 PM
I think its a mistake to assume that there's some kind of rulebook that Putin is referring to if he's deciding if he's okay with a particular weapon or not.  He's not a statesman.  He's a thug.  The only thing these people understand is power.  Frankly I think it's a mistake not to give Ukraine even more advanced weapons asap.

Also kicking an invading army out of the country is hardly backing them into a corner. 

Russia is nowhere near collapse.  A nation like Russia can take an enormous amount of punishment before it collapses.  In ww2 things were so bad they had to run public service announcements telling starving peasants not to cannibalize their children.  They still held up.

We've tried appeasing Putin many times.  Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Ukraine again, Ukraine for a third time.  I suppose if we appease him this one last time he might stop.  It has to work eventually right?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on June 02, 2022, 02:24:09 PM
I think its a mistake to assume that there's some kind of rulebook that Putin is referring to if he's deciding if he's okay with a particular weapon or not.  He's not a statesman.  He's a thug.  The only thing these people understand is power.  Frankly I think it's a mistake not to give Ukraine even more advanced weapons asap.

Huh? No one mentioned a rulebook. What thread are you reading?

Also kicking an invading army out of the country is hardly backing them into a corner. 

I'm referring to their economic sanctions, not anything to do with Ukraine itself.

Russia is nowhere near collapse.  A nation like Russia can take an enormous amount of punishment before it collapses.  In ww2 things were so bad they had to run public service announcements telling starving peasants not to cannibalize their children.  They still held up.

Defaulting on their international debt proves otherwise. The last time the Russians had economic problems, the USSR dissolved and we ended up with some very nasty nuclear weapons talks to avoid unstable governments having access to nuclear weapons and ensure the continuation of the central Russian government. I'd rather avoid that again (and you should too!).

We've tried appeasing Putin many times.  Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Ukraine again, Ukraine for a third time.  I suppose if we appease him this one last time he might stop.  It has to work eventually right?

In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war. Avoiding nuclear war has been the entire goal of all geopolitics since the US dropped two bombs on Japan.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on June 02, 2022, 02:38:29 PM
I was referring to some theoretical line we could cross, arms-wise, where Russia would be justified to strike a NATO aligned country to stop the shipments.  He'll strike if he thinks he can get away with it, not because we sent Ukraine something too dangerous to Russia.

North Korea still exists with as much sanctions as Russia has.  They're too broke to invade anyone.  That's sort of the goal.

Ironically a lot of those nukes were in Ukraine.  They gave them up for Russia's guarantee to not invade them.  Again I seriously doubt that the sanctions we've put on them are likely to cause Russia to collapse.

Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't think that giving up chunks of territory to anyone threatening nuclear war is a great foreign policy.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2022, 02:47:01 PM
In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war.
I dunno, Putin is still saying he'll totally start a nuclear war. Postponing it while giving him time to grow stronger (regardless of whether he squandered it) doesn't seem to have worked out so far.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on June 02, 2022, 03:23:02 PM
In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war.
I dunno, Putin is still saying he'll totally start a nuclear war. Postponing it while giving him time to grow stronger (regardless of whether he squandered it) doesn't seem to have worked out so far.

There is no surviving a nuclear war, how strong (or weak) he grows is irrelevant when just 10% of Russia's nuclear arsenal could render the planet uninhabitable. Letting him take chunks out of his neighbors is a very easy price to pay for not dying in WWIII. He knows this, which is why it's his strategy to just do a bit at a time. If he were truly an unstable madman, he'd be invading all of his neighbors simultaneously while egging NATO. The fact that he has never done that is a great indicator that he hasn't completely lost his sanity just yet.

Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't think that giving up chunks of territory to anyone threatening nuclear war is a great foreign policy.

Why? At what point do you say "I'm willing to gamble the entire planet's habitability on this piece of land"? A lot of these arguments sound more like a desire to not "let Putin win" or some other egotistical gibberish versus the actual stakes at hand here. I would let Putin take all of non-nuclear Europe before I gamble a single American getting wiped by a Russian nuke. If Russia nukes us, we have to nuke them back, then the entire planet loses. Yes, the whole planet. A worldwide extinction event that humanity may not survive (and if it does, we lose several thousand years of civilizational progress over the course of a few days).

It doesn't make sense to risk nuclear war over some muddy terrain in Eastern Europe. Quite literally anything we do to Russia ratchets up the chance they end the world. It would be the irrational choice, yes, but massive wars have started over irrational choices that were easily avoided.



Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on June 02, 2022, 03:30:24 PM
By that logic, wouldn't it also work if the US said "We'll nuke you unless you stop"?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on June 02, 2022, 04:24:22 PM
In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war.
I dunno, Putin is still saying he'll totally start a nuclear war. Postponing it while giving him time to grow stronger (regardless of whether he squandered it) doesn't seem to have worked out so far.

There is no surviving a nuclear war, how strong (or weak) he grows is irrelevant when just 10% of Russia's nuclear arsenal could render the planet uninhabitable. Letting him take chunks out of his neighbors is a very easy price to pay for not dying in WWIII. He knows this, which is why it's his strategy to just do a bit at a time. If he were truly an unstable madman, he'd be invading all of his neighbors simultaneously while egging NATO. The fact that he has never done that is a great indicator that he hasn't completely lost his sanity just yet.

Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't think that giving up chunks of territory to anyone threatening nuclear war is a great foreign policy.

Why? At what point do you say "I'm willing to gamble the entire planet's habitability on this piece of land"? A lot of these arguments sound more like a desire to not "let Putin win" or some other egotistical gibberish versus the actual stakes at hand here. I would let Putin take all of non-nuclear Europe before I gamble a single American getting wiped by a Russian nuke. If Russia nukes us, we have to nuke them back, then the entire planet loses. Yes, the whole planet. A worldwide extinction event that humanity may not survive (and if it does, we lose several thousand years of civilizational progress over the course of a few days).

It doesn't make sense to risk nuclear war over some muddy terrain in Eastern Europe. Quite literally anything we do to Russia ratchets up the chance they end the world. It would be the irrational choice, yes, but massive wars have started over irrational choices that were easily avoided.

So your plan would be let anyone with a nuke take over as much territory as they want and hope that territory doesn't include where you happen to live?

Also, non nuclear?  Wouldn't the same logic hold up if Putin attacks a nuclear power?  By this logic shouldn't the US surrender if Russia threatens to nuke us?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2022, 05:05:31 PM
The fact that he has never done that is a great indicator that he hasn't completely lost his sanity just yet.
That's one possible explanation. I'm not convinced it's correct. Keep in mind that it wouldn't be Putin, personally, launching the nukes, and his generals have previously put the brakes on significantly smaller infractions than annihilating the world. Their loyalty is to their own comfort, not to Putin, and not to Russia.

Chances are that the moment he declares a nuclear strike, he gets shot in the head by a high-ranking official. He's done his fair share of shooting people in the head, so he likely realises that.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on June 02, 2022, 05:21:55 PM
By that logic, wouldn't it also work if the US said "We'll nuke you unless you stop"?

The US has a lot more to lose than Russia. It's like threatening the local homeless man you'll knock down his tent versus him threatening to topple your skyscrapers. The risk vs. reward is completely different. Russia is more willing to risk getting nuked to gain some territory than we are to protect it (which is why we aren't knocking down Putin's door with SEAL team six).

So your plan would be let anyone with a nuke take over as much territory as they want and hope that territory doesn't include where you happen to live?

Yes, because anything else involves inviting nuclear warfare. It's also why the US' supposed devotion to protecting Taiwan is meaningless and when China finally decides to take Taiwan by force, they'll eventually get it.


Also, non nuclear?  Wouldn't the same logic hold up if Putin attacks a nuclear power?  By this logic shouldn't the US surrender if Russia threatens to nuke us?

No, the same logic does not apply to a nuclear power. A nuclear power cannot invade another nuclear power. Again, this has been the basis for all geopolitics since the late 40's.

The fact that he has never done that is a great indicator that he hasn't completely lost his sanity just yet.
That's one possible explanation. I'm not convinced it's correct. Keep in mind that it wouldn't be Putin, personally, launching the nukes, and his generals have previously put the brakes on significantly smaller infractions than annihilating the world. Their loyalty is to their own comfort, not to Putin, and not to Russia.

Chances are that the moment he declares a nuclear strike, he gets shot in the head by a high-ranking official. He's done his fair share of shooting people in the head, so he likely realises that.

If we start reaching for assumptions that involve Putin behaving irrationally (though he has not seemed to have done so yet) then also reaching for the assumption that his colleagues are just as irrational as he is would be easy. We also don't know where the generals surrounding Putin have their loyalties. "To their own comfort" is merely an opinion and one that is not evident.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on June 02, 2022, 05:25:28 PM

Also, non nuclear?  Wouldn't the same logic hold up if Putin attacks a nuclear power?  By this logic shouldn't the US surrender if Russia threatens to nuke us?

No, the same logic does not apply to a nuclear power. A nuclear power cannot invade another nuclear power. Again, this has been the basis for all geopolitics since the late 40's.


Aha.  So we give Ukraine, Taiwan and anyone we want to not get invaded their own set of nukes.

Problem solved.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2022, 05:27:03 PM
If we start reaching for assumptions that involve Putin behaving irrationally (though he has not seemed to have done so yet)
Most of his recent actions are largely described as irrational by people who know better than you or me. It could be that they're wrong and you're right, but it won't be as easy as dismissing this analysis as "reaching for assumptions".

then also reaching for the assumption that his colleagues are just as irrational as he is would be easy.
It would, were it not for their track record.

We also don't know where the generals surrounding Putin have their loyalties. "To their own comfort" is merely an opinion and one that is not evident.
Your opinion is also far from evident. Are we just gonna sit here and say "well gmm that's just your opinion" to each other, or do you want to try and have a discussion?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 02, 2022, 05:54:54 PM
In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war.
I dunno, Putin is still saying he'll totally start a nuclear war. Postponing it while giving him time to grow stronger (regardless of whether he squandered it) doesn't seem to have worked out so far.
My nephew is convinced we are all about to die in a thermonuclear war (he’s an adult by the way, and he is prone to doom-mongering). I don’t think so because even if Putin is mad enough to push the button, which I doubt, in real life he doesn’t actually have a button. There are some checks and balances even in Russia and when push comes to shove I don’t think they’d actually launch. Prove me wrong, boys, prove me wrong!
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on June 02, 2022, 06:21:27 PM
In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war.
I dunno, Putin is still saying he'll totally start a nuclear war. Postponing it while giving him time to grow stronger (regardless of whether he squandered it) doesn't seem to have worked out so far.
My nephew is convinced we are all about to die in a thermonuclear war (he’s an adult by the way, and he is prone to doom-mongering). I don’t think so because even if Putin is mad enough to push the button, which I doubt, in real life he doesn’t actually have a button. There are some checks and balances even in Russia and when push comes to shove I don’t think they’d actually launch. Prove me wrong, boys, prove me wrong!

Russia’s rhetoric is pretty effective. They are playing up their crazy villain persona that we see them as.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2022, 06:31:51 PM
There are some checks and balances even in Russia and when push comes to shove I don’t think they’d actually launch. Prove me wrong, boys, prove me wrong!
Egads, it sounds like we broadly agree. I'm not sure if I'd call it "checks and balances" (sounds way too codified), but I have some faith in the self-preservation instinct of the men in kushy dictatorship jobs.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on June 02, 2022, 07:44:02 PM
We could just cede Ukraine. Russia basically already has Belarus. The question becomes, what do we do if Russia gets super pissed with Finland and Sweden if they join NATO and decide to invade there? We'd be in the same MAD scenario only that NATO is forced to act militarily. The MAD call would be raised and someone has to lay down their cards and/or fold...Or launch nukes.

As others have pointed out, what happens elsewhere. Do we just let China take Taiwan because of nukes? NK take SK because they have nukes? Should the US (NATO) just back off from every scenario where a nuke power invades another nation? Just go full-on isolationist because of the perpetual threat of Nukes? Idk. But it seems like this isn't our first rodeo and the world hasn't become radioactively winterized because of past conflicts. Maybe this one is different. Hard to say.

And logically, (though logic may not apply), would Russia really nuke the planet? It seems counter-intuitive considering no one would get anything they want. It would all be gone. Think of how sad the oligarchs would be if their yachts were vaporized.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on June 02, 2022, 08:02:32 PM
From what I understand, Russia's nuclear arsenals is controlled by the Strategic Rocket Forces which has a good degree of independent from their executive branch.

It may be the case that Putin can't just circumvent this separation of powers without the attempt being very visible.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on June 02, 2022, 08:08:32 PM
There's also another problem with the strategy of letting psychos with nukes just have whatever they want; there's more than one psycho with a lot of nukes. 

Suppose we isolate.  Every bad actor with a nuclear arsenal starts grabbing land like a fire sale.  What happens if they start challenging each other?  I guess at least we can claim that the end of the world wasn't our fault.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on September 06, 2022, 06:51:30 PM
This video should really be on this thread as the groupies running this site wanted to blame Russia as the bad guy bully when it was obvious they were instigated ...wanna fight, f..k yeah

NOW freeze and die bitchez

https://rumble.com/v1ism72-they-finally-admitted-it.html
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on September 06, 2022, 07:39:35 PM
Russia doesn't invade

russia invaded with peace keepers in 2022

Really makes you think, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 06, 2022, 08:29:36 PM
This video should really be on this thread as the groupies running this site wanted to blame Russia as the bad guy bully when it was obvious they were instigated ...wanna fight, f..k yeah

NOW freeze and die bitchez

https://rumble.com/v1ism72-they-finally-admitted-it.html

I was under the impression that Joe Biden, with his powerful intellect and sharp wit, tricked Putin into special military operationing Ukraine.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on September 06, 2022, 08:34:15 PM
Russia doesn't invade

russia invaded with peace keepers in 2022

Really makes you think, doesn't it?

Not really, it's like you telling me "that's sick". Can have positive or negative connotations.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on September 06, 2022, 09:23:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on September 06, 2022, 10:41:50 PM
J-man, have you ever considered the possibility that former Warsaw pact and Soviet states want to join NATO because they don't want to ever be under Russian control again?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 06, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU

Sweet Jesus.  She's going all the way back to to the 1600s to justify their war.  Why don't they go all the way back to the times of Genghis Khan and use that as a justification to invade Mongolia?

Also, this whole NATO justification, this is just nonsense.  Finland and Sweden are about to join.  That's way more of an infringement on Russia.  You would think Russia would be making more noise about that but nope.  Not a peep.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on September 22, 2022, 04:33:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/R8lDLiy.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2022, 06:06:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/R8lDLiy.jpg)

I'm fairly certain the story is fake.

Why?

Here's one claiming its real.

https://thenewsdept.com/trending/77774.html?amp=1

Just to give you an idea of size...
My house in Norway is 126 sq. m of usable area.  Bigger once you add up all the storage space.


Also: why would you have them publically shown where they live?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on September 22, 2022, 09:06:57 PM
My favorite part from the article:

"This was reported on one of the Telegram channels."
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 22, 2022, 09:19:17 PM
Even if they did buy an 8 million dollar house I don't see what that has to do with anything unless it's somehow skimmed from the international aid that Ukraine is receiving.

The pic is also misleading.  I don't think Zelenskyy has even left the country since the invasion.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on September 22, 2022, 09:27:11 PM
Even if they did buy an 8 million dollar house I don't see what that has to do with anything unless it's somehow skimmed from the international aid that Ukraine is receiving.

The pic is also misleading.  I don't think Zelenskyy has even left the country since the invasion.

Also, didn't his parents move to Israel like... decades ago?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Fortuna on September 25, 2022, 09:40:25 PM
In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war.
I dunno, Putin is still saying he'll totally start a nuclear war. Postponing it while giving him time to grow stronger (regardless of whether he squandered it) doesn't seem to have worked out so far.

That’s part of the Russian hybrid warfare doctrine. They want to be seen as the unhinged crazy people who could fire off a nuke just for looking at them funny. They’ve built an entire narrative around it that a lot of people have bought. They want to get as much value out of their arsenal as humanly possible without actually using it.

According to the latest publicly available intelligence reports, it’s been business as usual for the world’s strategic forces.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on September 25, 2022, 11:58:53 PM
In each of those times we successfully avoided nuclear war.
I dunno, Putin is still saying he'll totally start a nuclear war. Postponing it while giving him time to grow stronger (regardless of whether he squandered it) doesn't seem to have worked out so far.

That’s part of the Russian hybrid warfare doctrine. They want to be seen as the unhinged crazy people who could fire off a nuke just for looking at them funny. They’ve built an entire narrative around it that a lot of people have bought. They want to get as much value out of their arsenal as humanly possible without actually using it.

According to the latest publicly available intelligence reports, it’s been business as usual for the world’s strategic forces.

Except that the White House has literally reached out to the Kremlin to warn them not to use nukes which is very far from business as usual.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on September 26, 2022, 01:41:25 AM
Vote is almost legit....Guess who wins?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 26, 2022, 02:28:42 AM
Vote is almost legit....Guess who wins?

https://youtu.be/n6_4dNPNOec

Hmm... Voting with a gun to one's head. I suspect that may affect the legitimacy of those vote somewhat.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on September 26, 2022, 03:11:07 AM
Hmm...  Maybe Poland should hold a totally legitimate referendum to annex the rest of Ukraine, that way any further attacks by Russia on Polish territory would trigger a response by the rest of NATO.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on September 26, 2022, 05:25:16 PM
Merely peacekeepers
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 26, 2022, 07:53:02 PM
Merely peacekeepers

Masses of people risking their life to flee Russia's brutal and bloodthirsty autocracy.
Masses of people desperately risking their lives to get into the United states for liberty and opportunity.

Idiotic American conservatives running in the opposite direction. Sad...
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on September 26, 2022, 09:13:07 PM
Merely peacekeepers
Yes, scorched earth is quite peaceful.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on September 26, 2022, 11:25:48 PM
I wonder how the EU and Germany is handling this inflation, no gas, no wheat, no yobs, no food.

They could have weathered all this strife if they just wouldn't have listened. Bad Gold, Don't buy to protect your fam.

Snowden and Seagal become Russian citizens...
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 26, 2022, 11:30:46 PM
Great.  Now they can be drafted.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on September 27, 2022, 04:22:18 AM
I wonder how the EU and Germany is handling this inflation, no gas, no wheat, no yobs, no food.

They could have weathered all this strife if they just wouldn't have listened. Bad Gold, Don't buy to protect your fam.

Snowden and Seagal become Russian citizens...
Importing.
Using electric heat.

Its a mess and it sucks. 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 27, 2022, 12:15:42 PM
I wonder how the EU and Germany is handling this inflation, no gas, no wheat, no yobs, no food.

Yes, Putin and the glorious Soviet Union will save all of Europe from inflation and Nazi aggression.

Snowden and Seagal become Russian citizens...

Yes, you should join them in their wonderful new life of prosperity and freedom. There are all kinds of career opportunities in the Russian military.



America needs to move as many of these traitorous freaks to Russia as we can. Rather than allowing the Republicans to make us part of the new Soviet Republic, we need to ship them to Russia. Rand Paul, Melissa Boebert, M.J. Greene, Matt Gaetz, Josh (the running man) Hawley, Ron Johnson, Donald Trump and the whole Hee Haw gang needs to go. Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, Bill Barr need to go to prison for thirty years and then get shipped to Russia.

After Ronald Reagan's pressure helped bring down the Soviet Union, these turncoats are helping Putin rebuild it. These communist collaborators are supporting Russia for one reason, they know Russia will support them in the next election.

This is how Venezuela became a Russian nation state. Putin flooded their media with propaganda that got those idiots to elect a bunch of corrupt pro-Russia politicians who then changed the laws so they can't be un-elected. We're watching it happen here.


Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on September 27, 2022, 08:35:11 PM
I wonder how the EU and Germany is handling this inflation, no gas, no wheat, no yobs, no food.

They could have weathered all this strife if they just wouldn't have listened. Bad Gold, Don't buy to protect your fam.
What will gold buy you if there is nothing for sale?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on September 28, 2022, 05:27:16 PM
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/1125322026/russia-ukraine-referendums

Quote
The referendums are widely viewed as an initial Kremlin move toward formal Russian annexation of the territories, even as the exact timetable remains unclear.

Results reported Tuesday by Russian state media allegedly showed over 98% voting in favor of the measure in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics; while 93% voted for it in the Zaporizhzhia region and 87% in the Kherson region.

This very legitimate vote shows that the regions Russia wanted to help keep the peace in now suddenly want to be part of Russia.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on September 28, 2022, 06:21:03 PM
And by such overwhelming and compelling margins. I don’t see how anyone can support Ukraine anymore.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 28, 2022, 06:31:54 PM
Well that's that I guess.  I suppose the Ukrainian military will just be packing it up and leaving now.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on September 28, 2022, 07:26:53 PM
Seems legit, not like the Russian reported numbers would give anyone pause...

Results reported Tuesday by Russian state media allegedly showed over 98% voting in favor of the measure in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics; while 93% voted for it in the Zaporizhzhia region and 87% in the Kherson region.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on September 28, 2022, 08:22:02 PM
In Russia, the elections are managed by the federal government. Everyone cast their ballot then a black truck from the federal government takes the ballots away and announces the next day that El Presidente Gigante won in the landslide once again. There are no state or local election officials and no accountability.

This is what Trump attempted to do in his first year in office. Most Republicans thought it was a pretty cool idea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trumps-voting-commission-asked-states-to-hand-over-election-data-theyre-pushing-back/2017/06/30/cd8f812a-5dce-11e7-9b7d-14576dc0f39d_story.html
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 28, 2022, 09:02:10 PM
I wonder how the EU and Germany is handling this inflation, no gas, no wheat, no yobs, no food.
Pretty well. How's shilling for Satan going for you?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on September 30, 2022, 03:20:38 AM
Why does anyone doubt that the some regions in eastern Ukraine would want to seperate themselves from the current Ukrainian government?  In 2014, the same government overthrew there Russian Guy who has since been in exile in Russia. ?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on September 30, 2022, 04:26:57 AM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 30, 2022, 04:49:48 AM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on September 30, 2022, 05:00:05 AM
Yes, perhaps not everybody voted but I I think there was an effort to include residents of the area, including those who fled to Russia.  It does seem like a high number.  Zelenskyy said he's concerned about people within these regions who may not be so quick to pick sides.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 30, 2022, 06:29:01 AM
Well I'm not going to lie.  I'm pretty disappointed that they voted to join Russia.  But a votes a vote.  I notice that the Ukrainian army appears to be driving Russian out of their own sovereign territory as of a day ago!

Perhaps Russia should take the matter to the UN.  They've always been extremely effective at resolving international disputes.  I have no doubt that a strong letter written by them to Ukraine should cause them to retreat.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2022, 10:27:42 AM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.

That’s what he said. 98% voting in favour.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on September 30, 2022, 10:59:24 AM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.

Ummm, yeah, typically voters who voted are those who voted.

Did you want to make some sort of cogent point? If so, you may want to try again.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on September 30, 2022, 11:33:29 AM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.

Ummm, yeah, typically voters who voted are those who voted.

Did you want to make some sort of cogent point? If so, you may want to try again.

His point is that anyone who didn't want to be part of Russia wasn't allowd to vote.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on September 30, 2022, 01:49:10 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-63077272

Ah, you see, now that the regions are literally Russia, Ukraine is actually invading Russia! Putin is a true mastermind of strategic thought.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 30, 2022, 01:51:19 PM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.

Ummm, yeah, typically voters who voted are those who voted.

Did you want to make some sort of cogent point? If so, you may want to try again.

The point is that you phrased it as "Russia reporting 98% voting". This is incorrect phrasing and implied that 98% of the people voted in favor of Russia. It's really 98% of people who voted who voted in favor of Russia.

This connects to your remarks of absurdity. The people who loved Ukraine could simply have not voted or have already migrated out of the country or to the anti-Russia side of the country.

It is also possible that people simply side with Russia there and hate Zielinski based on social pressures there, much like how upwards of 98% of people hate pedophiles based on social norms and pressures.

Whatever the explanation, the point is that you were wrong about the phrasing of your remarks.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on September 30, 2022, 02:01:35 PM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.

Ummm, yeah, typically voters who voted are those who voted.

Did you want to make some sort of cogent point? If so, you may want to try again.

The point is that you phrased it as "98% voting". This is incorrect phrasing and implied that 98% of the people voted in favor of Russia. It's really 98% of people who voted who voted in favor of Russia.

This connects to your remarks of absurdity. The people who loved Ukraine could simply have not voted  or have already migrated out of the country or to the anti-Russia side of the country.

It is also possible that people simply side with Russia there and hate Zielinski based on social pressures there, much like upwards of 98% of people hate pedophiles based on social norms and pressures.

Whatever the explanation, the point is that you were wrong about the phrasing of your remarks.

You missed the
"Or they were afraid to not vote yes for fear of retaliation from the armed guards watching them vote "
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2022, 02:54:14 PM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.

Ummm, yeah, typically voters who voted are those who voted.

Did you want to make some sort of cogent point? If so, you may want to try again.

The point is that you phrased it as "Russia reporting 98% voting". This is incorrect phrasing and implied that 98% of the people voted in favor of Russia. It's really 98% of people who voted who voted in favor of Russia.

Everyone got his meaning. You are being uselessly pedantic

[quite]This connects to your remarks of absurdity. The people who loved Ukraine could simply have not voted or have already migrated out of the country or to the anti-Russia side of the country.

It is also possible that people simply side with Russia there and hate Zielinski based on social pressures there, much like how upwards of 98% of people hate pedophiles based on social norms and pressures.[/quote]

98% is an absurd election result you absolute troll. Comparing this to people’s views on pedophiles proves it.

Quote
Whatever the explanation, the point is that you were wrong about the phrasing of your remarks.

Everyone got the meaning, including you. Perhaps you should get back under the bridge?

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2022, 02:55:31 PM
Why does anyone doubt that the some regions in eastern Ukraine would want to seperate themselves from the current Ukrainian government?  In 2014, the same government overthrew there Russian Guy who has since been in exile in Russia. ?

People are doubting the results of the referendum, not the possibility that separatists exist.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on September 30, 2022, 03:44:05 PM
I haven't a clue what's true or not, but Russia reporting 98% voting in favor seems just a tad suspicious. I mean when in the world has anything like this legitimately resulted in 2% shy of 100%? I guess it could happen, but really, 98%?

Incorrect. It's 98% of those who voted, voted in favor of joining Russia.

Ummm, yeah, typically voters who voted are those who voted.

Did you want to make some sort of cogent point? If so, you may want to try again.

The point is that you phrased it as "Russia reporting 98% voting". This is incorrect phrasing and implied that 98% of the people voted in favor of Russia. It's really 98% of people who voted who voted in favor of Russia.

This connects to your remarks of absurdity. The people who loved Ukraine could simply have not voted or have already migrated out of the country or to the anti-Russia side of the country.

It is also possible that people simply side with Russia there and hate Zielinski based on social pressures there, much like how upwards of 98% of people hate pedophiles based on social norms and pressures.

Whatever the explanation, the point is that you were wrong about the phrasing of your remarks.

I wrote, "...Russia reporting 98% voting in favor..."

Typically, "voting in favor" of something requires one to actually vote. It's amazing that you don't understand this.

Pedophilia versus seceding from your country? Really? That's your logic?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 30, 2022, 05:48:39 PM
Quote
I wrote, "...Russia reporting 98% voting in favor..."

Typically, "voting in favor" of something requires one to actually vote. It's amazing that you don't understand this.

Actually that sentence implies that 98% of the region voted in favor of Russia. This is incorrect, and it is shameful that you initially phrased it that way and did not point out that it is 98% of people who voted.

It is also easy to see that 98% of received votes voting for something is not particularly rare, as opposed to your appeal to absurdity.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%2298+percent+voted%22

On Morocco constitution - "Morocco says 98 percent voted 'yes' for new constitution - Al Arabiya"

On an Iraqui referendum - "While 97 percent of voters reportedly favored the constitution in Shiite Basra and 98 percent voted yes in the Kurdish province of Sulaimaniyah, 97 percent of the approximately 100,000 Sunni voters in the city of Fallujah were opposed."

On a flight union vote - "less than 50 percent of the Delta flight attendants participated, so the union was not certified even though over 98 percent voted for AFA"

On a Venezuela referendum - "Total number of voters in Sunday's referendum, based on 95 percent of voting centers reporting. Of these, more than 98 percent voted in favor of"

On the Black woman vote - "Ninety-four percent of Black women voted for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 presidential election and 98 percent voted for Doug Jones in the"

etc., etc., etc.,

So it seems that your appeal to absurdity is actually based on your personal ignorance of voting and politics. 98% does regularly occur.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on September 30, 2022, 06:42:32 PM
It doesn’t imply that at all. You’re being more absurd than normal. Do you really expect people to say, “98% of people who voted voted in favor of…”??? How does someone vote in favor of something without voting???

How is "Morocco says 98 percent voted 'yes' for new constitution” different than "Russia reporting 98% voting in favor for…”? “Voting” implies "voted”. You know, like casting a vote in favor of something...

Are you actually that desperate for me to have said, "Russia says 98 percent of people who voted voted in favor for…” That you got tripped up on “reporting” versus “says” and “voted” instead of “voting”?  Truly absurd based on your personal ignorance of language and meaning.

NPR: Russian state media allegedly showed over 98% voting in favor of
Me: Russia reporting 98% voting in favor

Again, how does someone vote in favor of something without voting??? You’re being ridiculous.

And like I said, “I guess it can happen”, but personally, I find it a smidge suspect considering that Russia is not seen as the most reliable narrator. Why you’re all cozy with Putin is a mystery to me.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 30, 2022, 06:47:35 PM
I don't think Ukraine has got the memo on the annexation yet.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-forces-encircling-russian-units-around-lyman-stronghold-spokesperson-2022-09-30/

It's an interesting move by Putin.  I don't  know if it's getting the intended results.  Now by Russian law he's in a situation where Russia is being invaded and Putin, the strong man, the mastermind always playing 4d chess, can't defend his own territory.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on September 30, 2022, 08:10:25 PM
The intention is to do more-or-less exactly what they did to annex Crimea. The difference being the reaction of the West is quite a bit different than it was before. There's no telling if NATO and the EU will pressure for peace this time around versus continuing to support the Ukrainian military. It feels like the Nord Stream sabotage indicates that NATO is willing to go All The Way this time rather than pressure Ukraine into staying quiet.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 30, 2022, 09:28:34 PM
Russia isn't looking for a peace deal. They're looking for a cease fire so they can rearm and try again.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on September 30, 2022, 10:41:14 PM
It doesn’t imply that at all. You’re being more absurd than normal. Do you really expect people to say, “98% of people who voted voted in favor of…”??? How does someone vote in favor of something without voting???

Hey, give Tom a break.  For all we know, a total of 100 people voted and 98 of them voted to join Russia. 

Russia isn't looking for a peace deal. They're looking for a cease fire so they can rearm and try again.
They'll get that opportunity once winter sets in.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on September 30, 2022, 11:53:04 PM
I'm very curious about the winter situation. I guess a lot depends on how prepared their armies are for it.

Russia is used to dealing with the cold. I would think their equipment is made for it. Then again Russias army is in complete shambles so it might be an opportunity for Ukraine.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 01, 2022, 04:54:36 AM
I'm very curious about the winter situation. I guess a lot depends on how prepared their armies are for it.

Russia is used to dealing with the cold. I would think their equipment is made for it. Then again Russias army is in complete shambles so it might be an opportunity for Ukraine.

It'll be tragic irony:
Russia will lose due to the winter cold, like so many others who attacked Russia.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 01, 2022, 12:19:53 PM
American conservatives don't believe the election results from their own country but they believe this bullshit from Putin. They're idiots.

There was no election, thousands of people are dead, hundreds of thousands fled the country. When have 92% of any group voted in one direction. It's all a sham. A handful of Russian soldiers in Donetsk filled out a few paper ballots supporting Putin and dumbasses like Tucker Carlson believe it.

Of course, all the thousands of people fighting and dying in Ukraine to protect the country from an invasion from a bloodthirsty dictator are all just crisis actors. It's all a liberal hoax.

Just another reason that I will never vote for another Republican for the rest of my life.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 01, 2022, 02:09:08 PM
It's genius!

Putin now has the power to annex an area and conscript his people just by thinking about it, a power he learned from Trump.

Before he was killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.  Now right before a rocket hits a civilian convoy he can just declare them mobilized and call it friendly fire.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 01, 2022, 02:36:01 PM
It's genius!

Putin now has the power to annex an area and conscript his people just by thinking about it, a power he learned from Trump.
Not only that, but Putin also has an excuse to use nukes because Ukraine is now "invading Russian territory".
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 02, 2022, 05:02:24 PM
https://www.rt.com/russia/563911-blinken-ukraine-retake-territory/

Russia's highest court approves Ukraine vote. Monday Russia votes on accepting areas. Biden thinks were going to fund another stupid war we have nothing to do with.. Putin is going to level the remaining Ukraine and take any resources left.

NATO is going to freeze in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 02, 2022, 05:10:29 PM
https://www.rt.com/russia/563911-blinken-ukraine-retake-territory/

Russia's highest court approves Ukraine vote. Monday Russia votes on accepting areas. Biden thinks were going to fund another stupid war we have nothing to do with.. Putin is going to level the remaining Ukraine and take any resources left.

NATO is going to freeze in more ways than one.

I would like to point out that since the start of this war the country that has donated the most equipment to Ukraine is Russia.

Ukraine is merely field testing some of our newest weaponry for free and getting rid of a lot of our obsolete equipment that costs us money to store and maintain.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 02, 2022, 05:13:01 PM
Small man with hand out...laughing stock NAZI

(https://cdni.russiatoday.com/files/2022.09/l/633729402030274bd446f701.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 02, 2022, 05:16:09 PM
Doesn't fall off bike...

(https://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Putin-rides-a-bear-640x356.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 02, 2022, 05:43:14 PM
The who dun it. Nazi boy

(https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/nordstream-verdacht-1270x884-1.jpg)

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/10/nord-stream-whodunnit-cia-fingers-ukrainians/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 02, 2022, 06:45:10 PM
Doesn't fall off bike...

(https://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Putin-rides-a-bear-640x356.jpg)

A fantastic idea.  Let him fight his war.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 02, 2022, 09:13:58 PM
Putin is going to level the remaining Ukraine and take any resources left.
Why hasn't he been doing that for the last 8 months?  Seems like if he could have done it, he would have done it already.

Or is this one of those "This isn't even my final form!" kinda scenarios where Russia just wanted to tease the world into thinking they're weak?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 02, 2022, 10:26:28 PM
Ukraine story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVXzwnU1H6U
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 02, 2022, 10:31:46 PM
Doesn't fall off bike...
Of course. It's been a long time since Putin could even get on a bike, let alone fall off one. I'm sure you've noticed his ticks and inability to stand up for extended periods of time. After all, you're not stupid, just evil.

So, shilling for Satan still working out for you? I wonder how you'll feel about it when the reckoning comes 👀
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 03, 2022, 08:58:48 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/l5jFmUi.png)

7 months later...

(https://i.imgur.com/2XB8iqb.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/cFsCwPq.gif)

Seems like the Russians kinda suck at this invasion business.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 04, 2022, 12:27:44 AM
peacekeepers...
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 04, 2022, 05:47:59 AM
Indeed.  They're retreating from Ukrainian territory at a record pace.

Good news for Ukraine.  Though I fear all of this intense panic running the Russians are doing might give them an unfair advantage in the olympics.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 04, 2022, 03:06:48 PM
https://tass.com/world/1517621

Oh noes! Zelensky just declared those territories unannexed!

I guess they'll have to run those referendums all over again.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 04, 2022, 05:16:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/l5jFmUi.png)

7 months later...

(https://i.imgur.com/2XB8iqb.png)

Since Ukraine is a proxy war for the US and NATO countries, whom Russia is really fighting, it appears that Russia is holding the line in some areas and and advancing. When powerful foes fight it is not uncommon for boundaries to be unmoved by significant margins for relatively long periods of time.

However, it is clear from those maps that Russia is winning this. If US/NATO/Ukraine were winning they would have taken back Crimea by now.

Considering that many of the Ukraine resources are coming from outside of the country and can't be easily stopped, at this stage I would expect this to be a relative stalemate until one side runs out of resources.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 04, 2022, 05:30:40 PM
Russia claimed this war would last days instead they have had to conscript 100,000s of troops to maintain their tenuous hold. US credit card ftw
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 04, 2022, 05:52:00 PM
This is why there is a relative stalemate:

https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/why-parties-to-russia-ukraine-war-prolonging-it-520931

Quote
The recent successes of Ukrainian counteroffensive, as the cumulative military aid over $60 billion poured into Ukraine from US led NATO, seems to have emboldened Zelensky to talk of defeating Russia and getting back his entire territory.

I'm not sure if the above number includes all of the military equipment given to Ukraine, or mercenary involvement. But that number given to Ukraine in 7 months is roughly equivalent to the Russian annual military spending:

https://warontherocks.com/2019/12/why-russian-military-expenditure-is-much-higher-than-commonly-understood-as-is-chinas/

Quote
Based on the annual average dollar-to-ruble exchange rates, Russia is typically depicted as spending in the region of $60 billion per year on its military. This is roughly in line with the defense spending of medium-sized powers like the United Kingdom and France.

Despite being outspent Russia has a home advantage, admittedly, since they are closer to the action and can more easily mobilize resources without middlemen.

It would be pretty dishonest to suggest that Ukraine is fighting this on its own without bringing up the fact that they are highly supported by NATO and that this is a proxy war between major powers.

And I don't think Russia ever claimed that they could defeat NATO in a non-nuclear proxy war in days, no.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 04, 2022, 06:15:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/l5jFmUi.png)

7 months later...

(https://i.imgur.com/2XB8iqb.png)

Since Ukraine is a proxy war for the US and NATO countries, whom Russia is really fighting, it appears that Russia is holding the line in some areas and and advancing. When powerful foes fight it is not uncommon for boundaries to be unmoved by significant margins for relatively long periods of time.

However, it is clear from those maps that Russia is winning this. If US/NATO/Ukraine were winning they would have taken back Crimea by now.

Considering that many of the Ukraine resources are coming from outside of the country and can't be easily stopped, at this stage I would expect this to be a relative stalemate until one side runs out of resources.

Russia is quite clearly not holding the line. Their army is in danger of collapsing.

And if this comes down to resources then Russia loses.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2022, 06:23:36 PM
Russia is quite clearly not holding the line.

This depends on what region you're talking about. In northern Ukraine, the counteroffensive is pushing the Russians back. In Southern Ukraine, the counteroffensive has already been defeated and Russian forces are retaking the border regions that they lost in the first few weeks.

Their army is in danger of collapsing.

According to who? No war analyst agrees with what you just said.


The map below makes it pretty clear. The red stripes are regions Russian forces are pushing into as of this post. They've almost retaken all of the territory lost in the southern counteroffensive.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/13B24/production/_126967608_kherson_close_up_03_10_2x640-nc-2x-nc.png.webp)

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/77D4/production/_126967603_ukraine_invasion_south_map-nc.png.webp)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 04, 2022, 06:42:25 PM
Russia is quite clearly not holding the line.

This depends on what region you're talking about. In northern Ukraine, the counteroffensive is pushing the Russians back. In Southern Ukraine, the counteroffensive has already been defeated and Russian forces are retaking the border regions that they lost in the first few weeks.

Their army is in danger of collapsing.

According to who? No war analyst agrees with what you just said.


The map below makes it pretty clear. The red stripes are regions Russian forces are pushing into as of this post. They've almost retaken all of the territory lost in the southern counteroffensive.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/13B24/production/_126967608_kherson_close_up_03_10_2x640-nc-2x-nc.png.webp)

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/77D4/production/_126967603_ukraine_invasion_south_map-nc.png.webp)

Russia's lost a huge amount of territory in the North.  Even now they're losing more territory on that front.

In Kherson they're making new advances in the Northern end of it.  They've moving pretty fast recently.  Kherson is interesting because I don't think retaking it is their primary goal.  I think they're trying to degrade the Russian army.

The only front Russia is making progress is around Bakmut.  Slowly.  Very slowly.

The ISW, where you got your map from, has stated that Russia's army is in danger of collapse multiple times.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lexi on October 04, 2022, 06:53:05 PM
I've been saying WW3 is gonna happen since earlier in January.
Turns out my shitty rambling has came true.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 04, 2022, 06:59:42 PM
And if this comes down to resources then Russia loses.

Debatable. Countries can take on debt, if need be, to fight wars. The more debt you take on the more interest you have to pay on that debt. Countries fail when they can't pay the interest on their debt. It is known that the US and various Western European countries are already living near their limits.

Here are some quotes:

Russia: "In 2021, the national debt of Russia amounted to about 17.02 percent of gross domestic product."

US: "US Government debt accounted for 126.7 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Jun 2022,"

UK: "Now Britain is in the 100% debt-to-GDP club, what’s the spending plan?"

Italy: "Italy Government debt accounted for 152.6 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Mar 2022,"

All biggest Western Countries and allies: "Developed countries in the 100% club are a motley lot: Cyprus, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy, plus Canada, Japan and the US."

So Russia might have a larger relative credit card to rack up debt on. The US and the biggest NATO countries are known to be spend-a-holics who are living at the limit, largely due to massive welfare and socialist programs enacted by liberals who do not care about fiscal responsibility. It is quite possible that fiscally conservative Russia can start spending on their credit and outspend them all. Also, $100 USD goes a lot further in Russia than in the US and UK. It's more like $500 based on what you can buy with it.

At this moment it's primarily about 6 almost insolvent countries vs. 1 (Russia).

If China and Brazil team up with Russia, as they have been suggesting recently based on UN votes on Russia condemnation and sanction, it may spell significant trouble for NATO. Those countries are fiscally conservative, do not overspend on welfare programs, and have much lower gdp to debt ratios than the US or Western European nations (~50% debt to gdp).
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2022, 07:56:58 PM
I've been saying WW3 is gonna happen since earlier in January.
Turns out my shitty rambling has came true.
Just curious... how do you know its true?  What constitutes WW3?  Because so far this looks like any old proxy war.



And if this comes down to resources then Russia loses.

Debatable. Countries can take on debt, if need be, to fight wars. The more debt you take on the more interest you have to pay on that debt. Countries fail when they can't pay the interest on their debt. It is known that the US and various Western European countries are already living near their limits.

Here are some quotes:

Russia: "In 2021, the national debt of Russia amounted to about 17.02 percent of gross domestic product."

US: "US Government debt accounted for 126.7 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Jun 2022,"

UK: "Now Britain is in the 100% debt-to-GDP club, what’s the spending plan?"

Italy: "Italy Government debt accounted for 152.6 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Mar 2022,"

All biggest Western Countries and allies: "Developed countries in the 100% club are a motley lot: Cyprus, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy, plus Canada, Japan and the US."

So Russia might have a larger relative credit card to rack up debt on. The US and the biggest NATO countries are known to be spend-a-holics who are living at the limit, largely due to massive welfare and socialist programs enacted by liberals who do not care about fiscal responsibility. It is quite possible that fiscally conservative Russia can start spending on their credit and outspend them all. Also, $100 USD goes a lot further in Russia than in the US and UK. It's more like $500 based on what you can buy with it.

At this moment it's primarily about 6 almost insolvent countries vs. 1 (Russia).

If China and Brazil team up with Russia, as they have been suggesting recently based on UN votes on Russia condemnation and sanction, it may spell significant trouble for NATO. Those countries are fiscally conservative, do not overspend on welfare programs, and have much lower gdp to debt ratios than the US or Western European nations (~50% debt to gdp).
But Tom... what would Russia spend the money on?  Lets say they have unlimited money.  Or slave labor.  Whatever.  They can spend any amount of money.  Where would they shop?  The weapons Ukraine is getting is more advanced that most of what Russia has thrown into the war, which means Russia hasn't kept up, militarily.  (Your note about the spending is probably why)  As such, they can't buy what they need nor make it.  They've been cut off from most of the world and the arms markets.  MAYBE they can buy from China but China seems like they want to remain mostly neutral-Russia.  Helping them a bit and being friendly, but not jumping into the war with them.

Also: While china is an economic powerhouse, not sure Brazil is anywhere there.

Also also:
China is condemning the actions likely because they know it'll make Russia happy AND not matter.
This is a similar thing Politicians in the US do.  When a bill that they, personally, approve of but their voters hate it, they will vote against it if its almost certain to win.
Its easy to condemn anything, so long as it won't happen.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lexi on October 04, 2022, 07:59:03 PM
I've been saying WW3 is gonna happen since earlier in January.
Turns out my shitty rambling has came true.
Just curious... how do you know its true?  What constitutes WW3?  Because so far this looks like any old proxy war.

I've been saying Russia is gonna go to war with Ukraine since earlier this year because I have been reading posts somewhere.
I KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN BEFORE IT DID.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2022, 08:00:23 PM
I've been saying WW3 is gonna happen since earlier in January.
Turns out my shitty rambling has came true.
Just curious... how do you know its true?  What constitutes WW3?  Because so far this looks like any old proxy war.

I've been saying Russia is gonna go to war with Ukraine since earlier this year because I have been reading posts somewhere.
I KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN BEFORE IT DID.
You mean like... February when they went to war? :P

Also, one country going to war with another doesn't make WW3.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lexi on October 04, 2022, 08:02:58 PM
I've been saying WW3 is gonna happen since earlier in January.
Turns out my shitty rambling has came true.
Just curious... how do you know its true?  What constitutes WW3?  Because so far this looks like any old proxy war.

I've been saying Russia is gonna go to war with Ukraine since earlier this year because I have been reading posts somewhere.
I KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN BEFORE IT DID.
You mean like... February when they went to war? :P

Also, one country going to war with another doesn't make WW3.

No, it was January. Didn't you read?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2022, 08:14:30 PM
Russia's lost a huge amount of territory in the North.  Even now they're losing more territory on that front.

No, they haven't and no, they're not. Stop making things up.

The only front Russia is making progress is around Bakmut.  Slowly.  Very slowly.

The ISW, where you got your map from, has stated that Russia's army is in danger of collapse multiple times.

Absolutely none of what you just said is true, amazing. Care to try again?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 04, 2022, 08:15:55 PM
I've been saying WW3 is gonna happen since earlier in January.
Turns out my shitty rambling has came true.
Just curious... how do you know its true?  What constitutes WW3?  Because so far this looks like any old proxy war.

I've been saying Russia is gonna go to war with Ukraine since earlier this year because I have been reading posts somewhere.
I KNEW IT WOULD HAPPEN BEFORE IT DID.

dude or dudess, Ukraine Nazi's have been bombing Russians in Ukraine since 2014. It had to happen and Putin is NOT leaving with his peace keepers till the place is a wasteland and he is the influential power broker. NATO is done causing strife or we will end up in ww111
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 04, 2022, 08:34:28 PM
But Tom... what would Russia spend the money on?  Lets say they have unlimited money.  Or slave labor.  Whatever.  They can spend any amount of money.  Where would they shop?  The weapons Ukraine is getting is more advanced that most of what Russia has thrown into the war, which means Russia hasn't kept up, militarily.  (Your note about the spending is probably why)  As such, they can't buy what they need nor make it.  They've been cut off from most of the world and the arms markets.  MAYBE they can buy from China but China seems like they want to remain mostly neutral-Russia.  Helping them a bit and being friendly, but not jumping into the war with them.

Also: While china is an economic powerhouse, not sure Brazil is anywhere there.

Also also:
China is condemning the actions likely because they know it'll make Russia happy AND not matter.
This is a similar thing Politicians in the US do.  When a bill that they, personally, approve of but their voters hate it, they will vote against it if its almost certain to win.
Its easy to condemn anything, so long as it won't happen.

The situation is that China is buying from Russia, not the other way around:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/9/infographic-which-countries-buy-the-most-russian-weapons

"Russia is the world’s second-largest arms exporter: India buys one-quarter of those weapons followed by China, Algeria, Egypt and Vietnam."

Russia doesn't really need anyone to sell them weapons. They have the plans to make decently performing tanks and planes and rifles and whatever they need. There are plenty of Russian and international companies willing to take Russian money and build those tanks and planes. In a major war Russia can also just tell its companies to convert their factories and make equipment for them, for which they will pay for.

China's role is to primarily to sell Russia electronic components and raw materials for its weapons:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-firms-are-selling-russia-goods-its-military-needs-to-keep-fighting-in-ukraine-11657877403

"BEIJING—Chinese exports to Russia of microchips and other electronic components and raw materials, some with military applications, have increased since Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine, complicating efforts by the U.S. and Western allies to isolate the country’s economy and cripple its military."

If you compare the size of Russia's defense industry to the US it might seem that Russia's defense industry is still rather small, despite being the second-largest arms exporter, but this is mainly because it is direct USD to USD comparison and does not account for the fact that $100 USD is worth a lot more in Russia than in the US. The US is also encumbered in that it has to maintain hundreds of US Military bases around the world, and provide foreign protection to its allies, whereas Russia is not as encumbered. Almost universally, such graphs and comparisons do not account for this inequality and attempt to show the US as the biggest and best in terms of USD spent.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 04, 2022, 08:55:40 PM
Russia's lost a huge amount of territory in the North.  Even now they're losing more territory on that front.

No, they haven't and no, they're not. Stop making things up.

The only front Russia is making progress is around Bakmut.  Slowly.  Very slowly.

The ISW, where you got your map from, has stated that Russia's army is in danger of collapse multiple times.

Absolutely none of what you just said is true, amazing. Care to try again?

I just don't know what to say.  I think we're living in different realities. 

The ISW, which I assume you regard as reputable since you referenced it, paints a bleak picture of the Russian Military.

https://www.iswresearch.org/

This map has a feature which you can click through day by day to see what progress each side has made.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2022, 08:57:45 PM
I just don't know what to say.  I think we're living in different realities. 

The ISW, which I assume you regard as reputable since you referenced it, paints a bleak picture of the Russian Military.

https://www.iswresearch.org/

This map has a feature which you can click through day by day to see what progress each side has made.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Yes, we do seem to live in different realities, which is odd, considering we're using the same source. The source I'm reading and looking at so far says nothing you have claimed. Are you sure you know how to read? Is the map confusing to you somehow?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 04, 2022, 09:14:03 PM
And if this comes down to resources then Russia loses.

Debatable. Countries can take on debt, if need be, to fight wars. The more debt you take on the more interest you have to pay on that debt. Countries fail when they can't pay the interest on their debt. It is known that the US and various Western European countries are already living near their limits.

Here are some quotes:

Russia: "In 2021, the national debt of Russia amounted to about 17.02 percent of gross domestic product."

US: "US Government debt accounted for 126.7 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Jun 2022,"

UK: "Now Britain is in the 100% debt-to-GDP club, what’s the spending plan?"

Italy: "Italy Government debt accounted for 152.6 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Mar 2022,"

All biggest Western Countries and allies: "Developed countries in the 100% club are a motley lot: Cyprus, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy, plus Canada, Japan and the US."

So Russia might have a larger relative credit card to rack up debt on. The US and the biggest NATO countries are known to be spend-a-holics who are living at the limit, largely due to massive welfare and socialist programs enacted by liberals who do not care about fiscal responsibility. It is quite possible that fiscally conservative Russia can start spending on their credit and outspend them all. Also, $100 USD goes a lot further in Russia than in the US and UK. It's more like $500 based on what you can buy with it.

At this moment it's primarily about 6 almost insolvent countries vs. 1 (Russia).

If China and Brazil team up with Russia, as they have been suggesting recently based on UN votes on Russia condemnation and sanction, it may spell significant trouble for NATO. Those countries are fiscally conservative, do not overspend on welfare programs, and have much lower gdp to debt ratios than the US or Western European nations (~50% debt to gdp).

I think it might paint a clearer picture to consider absolute gdp instead of percentage of debt.  Our media sort of paints a picture of the West being a lot more helpful to Ukraine than we actually are.

Let me throw out a few things to put things in perspective:

The US has committed around 60 billion to Ukraine.  I think we've actually delivered about 14 billion.  This number is deceptive though.  Quite a bit of this was equipment that was obsolete and costing us money to maintain.  Most of it was a sunk cost.  It's hardware that we've already built to fight a country like Russia.  There really isn't a reason to replace it.

We suffer about 150 billion a year in hurricane damage.  So hurricanes are a bigger drain on us than Ukraine is by somewhere between 3 and 10 times.

The UK is in a bit of trouble but that's mostly from stabbing itself in the face with Brexit and massive tax cuts for the rich.

Russia and China are not friends or even allies.  China stands more to lose by severing ties with us than they do by helping Russia.  I don't know much about the geopolitics of Brazil.

There's a cost to this whole to the whole world regarding various supply chain disruptions but that's here to stay.  Even if the war were ending tomorrow a lot of countries would still refuse to trade with Russian since the mask is off now.  They're an unreliable and hostile trading partner.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2022, 05:15:14 AM
But Tom... what would Russia spend the money on?  Lets say they have unlimited money.  Or slave labor.  Whatever.  They can spend any amount of money.  Where would they shop?  The weapons Ukraine is getting is more advanced that most of what Russia has thrown into the war, which means Russia hasn't kept up, militarily.  (Your note about the spending is probably why)  As such, they can't buy what they need nor make it.  They've been cut off from most of the world and the arms markets.  MAYBE they can buy from China but China seems like they want to remain mostly neutral-Russia.  Helping them a bit and being friendly, but not jumping into the war with them.

Also: While china is an economic powerhouse, not sure Brazil is anywhere there.

Also also:
China is condemning the actions likely because they know it'll make Russia happy AND not matter.
This is a similar thing Politicians in the US do.  When a bill that they, personally, approve of but their voters hate it, they will vote against it if its almost certain to win.
Its easy to condemn anything, so long as it won't happen.

The situation is that China is buying from Russia, not the other way around:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/9/infographic-which-countries-buy-the-most-russian-weapons

"Russia is the world’s second-largest arms exporter: India buys one-quarter of those weapons followed by China, Algeria, Egypt and Vietnam."

Russia doesn't really need anyone to sell them weapons. They have the plans to make decently performing tanks and planes and rifles and whatever they need. There are plenty of Russian and international companies willing to take Russian money and build those tanks and planes. In a major war Russia can also just tell its companies to convert their factories and make equipment for them, for which they will pay for.

China's role is to primarily to sell Russia electronic components and raw materials for its weapons:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinese-firms-are-selling-russia-goods-its-military-needs-to-keep-fighting-in-ukraine-11657877403

"BEIJING—Chinese exports to Russia of microchips and other electronic components and raw materials, some with military applications, have increased since Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine, complicating efforts by the U.S. and Western allies to isolate the country’s economy and cripple its military."

If you compare the size of Russia's defense industry to the US it might seem that Russia's defense industry is still rather small, despite being the second-largest arms exporter, but this is mainly because it is direct USD to USD comparison and does not account for the fact that $100 USD is worth a lot more in Russia than in the US. The US is also encumbered in that it has to maintain hundreds of US Military bases around the world, and provide foreign protection to its allies, whereas Russia is not as encumbered. Almost universally, such graphs and comparisons do not account for this inequality and attempt to show the US as the biggest and best in terms of USD spent.
I'm more comparring military might against Ukraine.
Based on reports, their soldiers have few supplies, vehicles are old and not suited to the terrain, their warheads are running low, communications aren't even encrypted, etc...

If Russia sells weapons to China, China's army isn't gonna be very advanced.

The fact that Russia hasn't taken Kyiv tells me that they haven't the military power or supplies to do so.  And even if they can build what they need, they haven't yet.  And by the time they have enough of a supply to wage a war, it would be too late.

They expected this to be over in weeks.  They didn't build up their supplies.  Didn't build new, advanced tanks and planes.  They didn't give high training to the soliders. In the end, they prepared for a surrender and got a war they haven't been able to win.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 05, 2022, 06:04:25 AM
I just don't know what to say.  I think we're living in different realities. 

The ISW, which I assume you regard as reputable since you referenced it, paints a bleak picture of the Russian Military.

https://www.iswresearch.org/

This map has a feature which you can click through day by day to see what progress each side has made.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Yes, we do seem to live in different realities, which is odd, considering we're using the same source. The source I'm reading and looking at so far says nothing you have claimed. Are you sure you know how to read? Is the map confusing to you somehow?

I apologize for the insultingly basic suggestion.  I realize that as a professional with technology that I may suggest things that aren't necessary possible for those of us who aren't that computer literate.  I'm going to try for some basic instructions as to how to ease this website.  By all means let me know if you maybe are confused about some of the controls.  No shame.  Happens to us all.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Close to the bottom right there's a clock icon.

click on it and set the date to the first of September.

Then Click the right every to advance one day and the advantages associated with it.

You see that that as you click the right arrow, which represents time going forward, that the Ukrainians are taking more and more territory.  And for the last month that shows increasing gains on behalf of the Ukrainians. 

I'm also going to track down a gif that should be things even simpler to understand.

Try that.  See if you still disagree with me.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on October 05, 2022, 02:00:51 PM
I apologize for the insultingly basic suggestion.  I realize that as a professional with technology that I may suggest things that aren't necessary possible for those of us who aren't that computer literate.  I'm going to try for some basic instructions as to how to ease this website.  By all means let me know if you maybe are confused about some of the controls.  No shame.  Happens to us all.

https://deepstatemap.live/en#9/46.4748/33.6044

Close to the bottom right there's a clock icon.

click on it and set the date to the first of September.

Then Click the right every to advance one day and the advantages associated with it.

You see that that as you click the right arrow, which represents time going forward, that the Ukrainians are taking more and more territory.  And for the last month that shows increasing gains on behalf of the Ukrainians. 

I'm also going to track down a gif that should be things even simpler to understand.

Try that.  See if you still disagree with me.

Ah, I see you've suddenly decided to use an entirely different website called, hilariously, "deepstatemap". Care to explain why? Going to start telling me about how the deepstate is keeping your president out of office or something?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 05, 2022, 03:44:57 PM
Russia smiles as OPEC cuts production by 2mbd. Were going over $100 a barrel again boys and girls. Tighten those belts. Putin is winning?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 05, 2022, 04:29:40 PM
Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?

(https://i.imgur.com/Xupht8v.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tumeni on October 05, 2022, 05:33:18 PM
Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?

Yes.

Innocents lost their lives. How does carpet-bombing residential areas deal with corruption? 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 05, 2022, 08:12:50 PM
Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?

(https://i.imgur.com/Xupht8v.png)

Poroshenko was the president of Ukraine in 2015. He was a supporter of the Soviet Union just like you. Yes, he was very corrupt.

We all understand that for the Republicans and Putin, the invasion of Ukraine is just part of the plan to rebuild the Soviet union. It had nothing to do with the corruption of the government or the Nazis. Just like Crimea, it was another step in the path to dominate Europe. Putin's supporters know this and want it to happen.
Moldova would be next except for the spectacular failure of the Russian military. I thought Putin would sweep through Ukraine, seize that country and crush it into utter submission.
Also, Putin was counting on support from people like Trump, Mike Lidell, Steven Seagal, Tom and J Man. Turns out that none of those people are very helpful with anything.
Now, Putin has his testicles hung on a barbed wire fence and can't get himself loose.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2022, 08:20:06 PM
Russia smiles as OPEC cuts production by 2mbd. Were going over $100 a barrel again boys and girls. Tighten those belts. Putin is winning?
He IS.
Best go and buy those Electric Cars.  Soon they'll be the cheapest alternative.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 05, 2022, 10:19:38 PM
Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?
Sounds like Putin should have invaded in 2015 when he could have won with a lot less effort.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 05, 2022, 10:30:23 PM
Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?
Yes. After all, it stopped being the most corrupt nation after 2015, and Putin is trying to bring that back. You should be sad, because you accurately identified that things were bad, and the guy you're desperately trying to support (wow! so edgy and rebellious) is trying to bring that badness back.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 06, 2022, 06:14:08 AM
Here's where I'm confused. Why does it appear that the far-right in the West seem (emphasis on 'seem') to be pro-Putin? I don't get it. Is it NATO expansion, $/Aid, Nazis, Zelenskyy, the impeachment thing, Tucker Carlson? Anyone have a few sentence 'splainer on this? Scouring the media doesn't really reveal much in the way of logic.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 06, 2022, 08:02:11 AM
Stack - I can't speak for another group, but in my point of view Gorbatrev was a popular person among american business professionals and seen as a friend.  During the Bush era, Putin seemed to support America in whatever it is we thought was necessary.

Over the past 10 years it seems like nobody domestically or overseas, friend or foe, was reporting good news on TV..

I personally don't understand why Putin took Crimea.  It was offensive.  But so was the Maiden revolution in Ukraine, and the supposed strong arming of Russia to pressure Ukraine out of an importnat EU Trade deal.

It just doesn't end...
 

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 06, 2022, 09:52:26 AM
Here's where I'm confused. Why does it appear that the far-right in the West seem (emphasis on 'seem') to be pro-Putin? I don't get it. Is it NATO expansion, $/Aid, Nazis, Zelenskyy, the impeachment thing, Tucker Carlson? Anyone have a few sentence 'splainer on this? Scouring the media doesn't really reveal much in the way of logic.
Because Biden doesn't.

The far-right is literally "I'm against whatever he is for."
So if Biden is for helping Ukraine, The far right is against it and for Putin.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 06, 2022, 12:02:02 PM
Because Biden doesn't.

The far-right is literally "I'm against whatever he is for."
So if Biden is for helping Ukraine, The far right is against it and for Putin.

That is part of it. Like the Republican anti-vax movement, a lot of Republicans knew it was bullshit but saw they could radicalize the ignorant rednecks by wailing about vaccines. They could stand at the podium slamming their machete down, yelling about the left taking their freedom and mindless zombie crowds would cheer.

But the main reason the Republicans are betraying their country to support Russian expansion is that they know Russia will support them in the next election. Facebook has already removed thousands of fake accounts originating in Russia promoting Russia propaganda. Putin will bring resources to the right wing just like the pharmaceutical or the petroleum industry. Handing over Crimea was part of Trump's agreement with Putin. If he had been reelected, he would have given them Ukraine and Moldova.

Republicans fall into two categories. There are those who recognize and understand Putin's agenda and propaganda but will benefit from it. Then there are those idiots who actually believe the propaganda. It is a confluence of the evil and the stupid.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 06, 2022, 12:11:54 PM
It's worth remembering that many of the psycho-right groups are directly funded by the Kremlin. It's really no mystery why they wouldn't be critical of the Kremlin.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 06, 2022, 02:08:35 PM
It's worth remembering that many of the psycho-right groups are directly funded by the Kremlin. It's really no mystery why they wouldn't be critical of the Kremlin.

A good example of this is the National Rifle Association. Under Trump, the Russians were actually donating cash to the NRA. It's in Russia's best interest to flood the streets of America with cheap accessible guns and divisive media.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 06, 2022, 03:54:50 PM
Seems like it's definitely a MAGA thing...

(https://i.imgur.com/TclA9ha.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 04:57:33 PM
I don't see any evidence that Ukraine isn't still corrupt since 2015. According to Transparency International Ukraine's corruption score is still pretty high:

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ukraine/corruption.php

(https://i.imgur.com/Nf48aWl.png)

"The data is determined annually by Transparency International. In 2021, the index was calculated for 179 countries from all continents. The original index shows the figures exactly the other way round and assigns higher values for lower corruption. So the official score for Ukraine is 32 points in 2021, which would actually make it an anti-corruption index because as the score increases, corruption decreases. These numbers have been inverted here for better comprehensibility and easier visual acquisition of the graphs."

Compare to Germany:

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/germany/corruption.php

(https://i.imgur.com/Qy9PKZq.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 05:08:44 PM
Here is a quote from Zelensky from this year:

https://twitter.com/ReggieMeezer/status/1553387625150570498

Here is a definition:

(https://i.imgur.com/afM7pWR.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 06, 2022, 05:10:42 PM
You’ve already admitted this is a proxy war. Why would the USA care about what the proxy thinks? It’s about fighting Russia, not liberating Ukraine.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 06, 2022, 05:16:26 PM
Tom is in favor of a much less corrupt country like Russia taking over all of Europe.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 06, 2022, 05:20:37 PM
I don't see any evidence that Ukraine isn't still corrupt since 2015.
And yet, even with your standard of evidence (see below), you were only able to back up the fact that the situation was improving. Curious.

Here is a quote from Zelensky from this year
Just a quick source check for you on that one - the "quote" comes from a personal blog of Iain Muir, proud holder of the title of "some guy on the Internet" and a $5/mo. domain. Some quick research suggests that his greatest achievement in life was an assault conviction, which he appealed in 1999 and failed.

In short, I question this man's blog as a reputable source of Zelensky quotes.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 05:21:42 PM
Here is a quote from Zelensky from this year
Just a quick source check for you on that one - the "quote" comes from a personal blog of Iain Muir, proud holder of the title of "some guy on the Internet" and a $5/mo. domain. Some quick research suggests that his greatest achievement in life was an assault conviction, which he appealed in 1999 and failed.

In short, I question this man's blog as a reputable source of Zelensky quotes.

I went to the blog. They directly linked and embedded their source:

"Source: Fox News (Adapted)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gCyOBL327Y&feature=emb_title
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 06, 2022, 05:23:45 PM
I don't see any evidence that Ukraine isn't still corrupt since 2015. According to Transparency International Ukraine's corruption score is still pretty high:

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ukraine/corruption.php

(https://i.imgur.com/Nf48aWl.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hmIzZcj.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 06, 2022, 05:28:29 PM
I went to the blog. They directly linked and embedded their source
Did you listen to Tucker there? That's not a Zelensky quote, not does he claim it to be one.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 05:32:41 PM
I went to the blog. They directly linked and embedded their source
Did you listen to Tucker there? That's not a Zelensky quote, not does he claim it to be one.

I did watch the video. It is less than one minute long. I watched and listened to the whole thing. It is asserted to be a Zelensky quote. See the six second mark. From the YouTube Transcript:

0:06
just the other
day the president of ukraine zelinski
the man they're telling us is the new
george washington decide you know what i
don't have to pretend to care about the
united states anymore i think americans
are ridiculous decadent overfed and i
have contempt for them

I don't see any evidence that Ukraine isn't still corrupt since 2015. According to Transparency International Ukraine's corruption score is still pretty high:

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ukraine/corruption.php

(https://i.imgur.com/Nf48aWl.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hmIzZcj.png)

So you concede that Ukraine is actually a corrupt nation. Nice argument.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 06, 2022, 05:34:52 PM
It is asserted to be a Zelensky quote.
No, it's not. In fact, you can compare it to how that show presents quotes, because the video includes one.

You fell for a fake "news" blog, Tom. It's sad.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
The quote certainly does not come from the blog or a blog author. It comes from Carlson. Carlson is is speaking as Zelensy: "I think americans are ridiculous decadent overfed and I have contempt for them"

It is possible that Zelensky did not really say this and that this is Carlson rephrasing another quote or action as something Zelensy said, in the way someone might rephrase a quote or action from someone else. Based on the other quote given in that segment, Carlson may have been referring to Zelensy's inflation quotes:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-zelensky-biden-americans-spending-inflation-1728278


Zelensky thinks that the US should put Ukraine above its own problems and does not care that the US has other issues to deal with.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 06, 2022, 07:52:13 PM
I went to the blog. They directly linked and embedded their source
Did you listen to Tucker there? That's not a Zelensky quote, not does he claim it to be one.

I did watch the video. It is less than one minute long. I watched and listened to the whole thing. It is asserted to be a Zelensky quote. See the six second mark. From the YouTube Transcript:

0:06
just the other
day the president of ukraine zelinski
the man they're telling us is the new
george washington decide you know what i
don't have to pretend to care about the
united states anymore i think americans
are ridiculous decadent overfed and i
have contempt for them

I don't see any evidence that Ukraine isn't still corrupt since 2015. According to Transparency International Ukraine's corruption score is still pretty high:

https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ukraine/corruption.php

(https://i.imgur.com/Nf48aWl.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hmIzZcj.png)

So you concede that Ukraine is actually a corrupt nation. Nice argument.
He was not speaking a direct quote.
And I can't seem to find anything of substance on it.
Or much info.

The best I found is https://diannemarshallreport.com/president-trump-wisconsin-rally-hungary-prime-minister-orban-at-cpac/
where its claimed he said this to Chinese president Xi.

But it seems to have its origin from Tucker Carlson.  I can't seem to find any source before his.

So... he made up a quote, it seems.  Or at least paraphrased something without sourcing it.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 06, 2022, 08:07:58 PM
https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ukraine/corruption.php

(https://i.imgur.com/Nf48aWl.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/hmIzZcj.png)

So you concede that Ukraine is actually a corrupt nation. Nice argument.

No, if the argument is that Russia invaded Ukraine to quell Ukranian corruption, that's some serious backward logic considering that Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine.

I'm suggesting that Ukraine should have invaded Russia instead if that's the argument. Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine. Just like the US is more corrupt than Germany (33 v 20) and so on.

In other words, regarding:

Am I supposed to be sad that Russia invaded a country which The Guardian designated in 2015 as the most corrupt nation in Europe?

Your stance and logic is garbage.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 06, 2022, 08:11:15 PM
I hung a 1897 Mosin Nagant on my wall today.  What a weapon the Russians make, lasts centuries. I have a 1936 that shoots 1 moa.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 08:30:16 PM
The leader of Ukraine has signed a decree ruling out peace negotiations with Putin:

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-decree-ruling-out-peace-talks-with-putin-as-impossible/

(https://i.imgur.com/NCEgKQo.png)

Quote from: stack
No, if the argument is that Russia invaded Ukraine to quell Ukranian corruption, that's some serious backward logic considering that Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine.

I asked why I should be sad about the corrupt nation of Ukraine being invaded. Russia being corrupt as well would be irrelevant to that statement.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 06, 2022, 08:35:15 PM
Too bad their tanks suck...

Russia’s tanks in Ukraine have a ‘jack-in-the-box’ design flaw.
(https://i.imgur.com/SX4YO2t.gif)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lexi on October 06, 2022, 08:38:56 PM
There's a vid on Youtube that explains why the tanks explode but I didn't watch it cause I didn't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 06, 2022, 08:41:24 PM
I asked why I should be sad about the corrupt nation of Ukraine being invaded. Russia being corrupt as well would be irrelevant to that statement.

The real question is why are you and all the other Republican traitors so happy about Russia expanding across Europe?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 06, 2022, 08:46:43 PM
The leader of Ukraine has signed a decree ruling out peace negotiations with Putin:

Makes sense considering...

The decree formalized comments made by Zelensky on Friday after Putin proclaimed four partially occupied regions of Ukraine to be a part of Russia “forever,” in what Kyiv and the West dismissed as an illegitimate farce.

Quote from: stack
No, if the argument is that Russia invaded Ukraine to quell Ukranian corruption, that's some serious backward logic considering that Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine.

I asked why I should be sad about the corrupt nation of Ukraine being invaded. Russia being corrupt as well would be irrelevant to that statement.

Did someone ask you to be sad?

So your argument isn't that it was ok for Russia to invade because Ukraine is corrupt? We can take that argument off the table?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lexi on October 06, 2022, 09:08:45 PM
I asked why I should be sad about the corrupt nation of Ukraine being invaded. Russia being corrupt as well would be irrelevant to that statement.

The real question is why are you and all the other Republican traitors so happy about Russia expanding across Europe?

Tom Bishop secretly works for the Kremlin.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 09:11:06 PM
Did someone ask you to be sad?

So your argument isn't that it was ok for Russia to invade because Ukraine is corrupt? We can take that argument off the table?

Considering the flag waving and monetary contributions and twitter profile picture changes, western liberals appear to think we should be sad about it.

Ukraine has been known for many years to be a corrupt nation. I have not cared when a corrupt third world country has been invaded in the past, and I still do not see a reason to do so. There have been a number of wars in the last 10 years in Africa and Asia between corrupt third world countries that have barely registered a blip. If the concern is merely that there is a WAR somewhere where people may be DYING, then it is odd that there has not been comparable outrage over the other conflicts.

In reality, it appears that liberals do not really care about Ukraine or its culture or values and it is yet another exercise of faux outrage. The real reason is just a hate for Russia. They can't even justify why they love Ukraine so much, and were likely barely aware of its existence before this.

I asked why I should be sad about the corrupt nation of Ukraine being invaded. Russia being corrupt as well would be irrelevant to that statement.

The real question is why are you and all the other Republican traitors so happy about Russia expanding across Europe?

Clearly, many Republicans see Russia's ideology as preferable to liberalism. I can't blame them that they are rooting for Russia's success.

(https://i.imgur.com/wfCrk7j.jpg)

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 06, 2022, 09:19:40 PM
This is it. Conservatives have been groomed by the GOP to think that preserving the nuclear family is so important that having a dictator who legalized domestic abuse and murders his rivals, among many other atrocities, is preferable to democracy.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 06, 2022, 09:20:47 PM

Clearly, many Republican see Russia's ideology as preferable to liberalism. I can't blame them that they are rooting for Russia's success.


Finally! Some honesty!

Republicans want the kind of country where homosexuals can be jailed like Russia or Iran. They want a government to enforce the family values and virtues that they embrace. Everyone else is the enemy.

This is why it's so important that Americans rise up against this conservative garbage.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 06, 2022, 09:30:27 PM
Tom Bishop secretly works for the Kremlin.
Is it really secret at this point? My dude used to be pretty respectable around here, but then he abandoned his keen wit for what can only be presumed to be the mighty rouble.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 06, 2022, 09:51:22 PM
Considering the flag waving and monetary contributions and twitter profile picture changes, western liberals appear to think we should be sad about it.

Well, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to feel sad about the suffering of the countless innocent civilians caught in the middle of the fighting. 

It also wouldn't be a bad thing to be concerned at Putin's aggressive method of "liberating" the territories that he just annexed.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 06, 2022, 09:59:51 PM
Well, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to feel sad about the suffering of the countless innocent civilians caught in the middle of the fighting.

Yes, I felt about as sad as I did about the recent civil wars in Africa. I heard about it and went on my way. How loud did you cry about the African civil wars when you heard about them?

If your response is "nooo but Putin/Russia bad" and attempt to move the goal posts away from explaining why you seem to care more about some people dying and not others then it is just further evidence that you actually do not actually care about people in Ukraine dying.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 06, 2022, 10:02:43 PM
I didn't say that you're obligated to feel bad about innocent people dying.  I just said that it wouldn't be a bad thing if you did.  That is if you're even able.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2022, 12:03:18 AM
I simply do not see liberals changing their profile pictures and setting up flags in front of their houses based on the war of the year, condemning a b c despot for invading x y z country.

The reason they are doing it for Ukraine is not because they care solely about people dying in Ukraine, clearly. Don't even lie. This is typical faux outrage. This is about ideology and politics.

Liberals hate Russia because of ideology. In recent years Russia has become an ultra conservative capitalist country and so they must be demonized. That is simply all there is to it. It has nothing to do with Russian corruption, as they freely support the corrupt Ukraine. It is all about ideology.

Likewise, Italy voted in a conservative candidate recently and now Italy is FACIST. Who is good or bad is based entirely on ideology and liberal emotion. Whether we are talking about Russia, Italy, Trump, it is all merely left vs right and is just the same conversation. The underlying motivation and reasoning is all the same. You guys have nothing unique to bring to the table with your identical positions or fake emotional outrage.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 07, 2022, 02:02:22 AM
Liberals hate Russia because of ideology. In recent years Russia has become an ultra conservative capitalist country and so they must be demonized. That is simply all there is to it. It has nothing to do with Russian corruption, as they freely support the corrupt Ukraine. It is all about ideology.

Yes.  You can support Putin, who is a demonstrable shithole who makes people's lives materially worse in almost every conceivable fashion, or not.  Your choice.

Quote
Likewise, Italy voted in a conservative candidate recently and now Italy is FACIST.

When the person who is elected shows her support and admiration for Mussolini and his policies, it seems a logical conclusion.

Quote
Who is good or bad is based entirely on ideology and liberal emotion. Whether we are talking about Russia, Italy, Trump, it is all merely left vs right and is just the same conversation. The underlying motivations and reasoning are all the same. You guys have nothing unique to bring to the table with your identical positions or fake emotional outrage.

lol, you can try and hand wave away the actions of these people, but fortunately we don't rely on you for information.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2022, 02:20:36 AM
Yes.  You can support Putin, who is a demonstrable shithole who makes people's lives materially worse in almost every conceivable fashion, or not.  Your choice.

How so exactly? In public Putin is a Christian who promotes traditional values. Everything else is a conspiracy theory about how he blew up apartment buildings which allowed him to win on a pro-police platform or whatever.

If you actually have anything that is confirmed as factual please tell us. All I have ever heard is unconfirmed theory and propaganda.

Quote
When the person who is elected shows her support and admiration for Mussolini and his policies, it seems a logical conclusion.

Which policies? Both Hitler and Mussolini had good economic policies which benefitted their nation. That is not in dispute. Even standard textbooks describe their policies as prosperous for their countries.

Quote
lol, you can try and hand wave away the actions of these people, but fortunately we don't rely on you for information.

Yes clearly, you just repeat the liberal byline on the media almost verbatim.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 07, 2022, 04:38:53 AM
Liberals hate Russia because of ideology. In recent years Russia has become an ultra conservative capitalist country and so they must be demonized. That is simply all there is to it. It has nothing to do with Russian corruption, as they freely support the corrupt Ukraine. It is all about ideology.

I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

And as for not caring about other 3rd world nations warring and whatnot, this scenario is tad different in terms of magnitude; A nuclear power invading another nation, threatening some Nordic countries if they join NATO, threatening nuclear weapons use, etc. I'd say this is not even remotely comparable to any other conflicts currently going on. The stakes are infinitely higher.

Likewise, Italy voted in a conservative candidate recently and now Italy is FACIST. Who is good or bad is based entirely on ideology and liberal emotion.

Maybe not for you, but fascism is generally frowned upon regardless of liberal or conservative emotions.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 07, 2022, 05:06:57 AM
Yes.  You can support Putin, who is a demonstrable shithole who makes people's lives materially worse in almost every conceivable fashion, or not.  Your choice.

How so exactly? In public Putin is a Christian who promotes traditional values. Everything else is a conspiracy theory about how he blew up apartment buildings which allowed him to win on a pro-police platform or whatever.

If you actually have anything that is confirmed as factual please tell us. All I have ever heard is unconfirmed theory and propaganda.

Quote
When the person who is elected shows her support and admiration for Mussolini and his policies, it seems a logical conclusion.

Which policies? Both Hitler and Mussolini had good economic policies which benefitted their nation. That is not in dispute. Even standard textbooks describe their policies as prosperous for their countries.

Quote
lol, you can try and hand wave away the actions of these people, but fortunately we don't rely on you for information.

Yes clearly, you just repeat the liberal byline on the media almost verbatim.

Is butchering civilians and stealing the filling in their teeth a traditional Christian value?

I'm just curious.  I haven't studied the Bible in a while.  I suppose it's possible that jesus condoned this sort of behavior.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 07, 2022, 06:21:34 AM
Tom, you seem to forget somethint vital.


Because of Russia, prices of fuel went up.
Wheat and other materials produced by Ukraine have been stopped and become more scarce.

Putin made your life more expensive and harmed countless businesses around the world.

Does that make you sad?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 07, 2022, 08:46:30 AM
Yes.  You can support Putin, who is a demonstrable shithole who makes people's lives materially worse in almost every conceivable fashion, or not.  Your choice.

How so exactly? In public Putin is a Christian who promotes traditional values. Everything else is a conspiracy theory about how he blew up apartment buildings which allowed him to win on a pro-police platform or whatever.

I mean I’ve only mentioned it a few times but I guess reading is hard. He decriminalized domestic abuse. Read that aloud and get back to me if we need to go any further. I know domestic abuse is a traditional value and all, but it’s going a bit far.

Quote
If you actually have anything that is confirmed as factual please tell us. All I have ever heard is unconfirmed theory and propaganda.

Then you obviously haven’t looked very hard before making up your mind. Unsurprising. From harsh anti-democratic crackdowns to war crimes, Putin is just a machine gun of shittiness. It’s why Trump admires him so much… oh that’s why you like Putin. Your document stealing idol heaps praise on him so you naturally follow along.

Quote
Quote
When the person who is elected shows her support and admiration for Mussolini and his policies, it seems a logical conclusion.

Which policies? Both Hitler and Mussolini had good economic policies which benefitted their nation. That is not in dispute. Even standard textbooks describe their policies as prosperous for their countries.

hItLeR wAsN’t WrOnG!

Quote
Quote
lol, you can try and hand wave away the actions of these people, but fortunately we don't rely on you for information.

Yes clearly, you just repeat the liberal byline on the media almost verbatim.

I don’t think you know what byline means. I think you meant headline. Your welcome. But also, wtf are you talking about? I’m saying you are ignoring the shit Putin does in plain sight. I forgot who I’m talking to though. You don’t give a fuck about democracy or personal rights. Silly Rama.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 07, 2022, 12:07:27 PM
Tom has really revealed the heart of the MAGA/Russia connection. It is about forming an authoritarian, Christian regime that will use force and violence to achieve their agenda. They will do whatever it takes no matter how fucked up and they will align with anyone no matter how fucked up. They have no problem enlisting the support of a butcher like Putin. They certainly have no problem spending millions and millions of dollars to put an absolutely idiotic, illiterate, criminal piece of shit like Hershel Walker in the Senate.

Putin's plan to make America a Russia nation state is rolling full steam. His advance troops are here among us and some are highly placed in our government.

The self-righteous conservatives of Iran rose up and installed their beloved theocracy. Now, they get imprisoned for shaving their beards, their daughters get stoned to death for violating 'morality laws' and there is no mechanism to take the regime out of power. Those people fucked themselves just like we are fucking ourselves.

All those years of the conservatives going hysterical over Obama's government overreach and the liberal agenda, now these hypocrites are working with the communists trying to overthrow our government.

Fuck the Republicans! Defend America!


Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 07, 2022, 12:09:58 PM
What are you smoking calling Putin a communist?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2022, 01:26:39 PM
Quote from: stack
I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

Incorrect. I do not know what drugs you have been taking, but you have it backwards. Reagan was not an enemy to Russia. Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal and with respect. It was, in fact, Reagan's peace and friendship with Russia that helped end the Cold War.

https://www.history.com/news/gorbachev-reagan-cold-war


https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/reagans-evolving-views-russians-and-their-relevance-today


According to the modern liberal narrative Putin is an evil entity on level of Osama Bin Laden. This is not how Reagan treated the Russian leader in ending the Cold War.

Compare Reagan's approach to President Zelensky's recent decree and remarks:

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-decree-ruling-out-peace-talks-with-putin-as-impossible/

(https://i.imgur.com/NCEgKQo.png)

I mean I’ve only mentioned it a few times but I guess reading is hard. He decriminalized domestic abuse. Read that aloud and get back to me if we need to go any further. I know domestic abuse is a traditional value and all, but it’s going a bit far.

The domestic abuse law in Russia is that if someone hits you, it's battery, and there is no special classification based on whether they are a family member.

https://news.sky.com/story/how-russias-decision-to-decriminalise-domestic-violence-is-continuing-to-kill-12250780


The penalty for being punched by a relative in Russia is the same as being punched by a stranger on the street. I don't really see why the penalties for battery should be different whether it is between relatives in a home or students in college. This law you are referring to wanted a specific category for violence by a relative. The general law on battery was not repealed.

There were arguments about that Russian domestic abuse law on whether the situation is more grievous when a stranger attacks you, or whether a trusted family member attacks you. That argument was not resolved and is obviously highly situational, and so there is only one general battery law. The domestic abuse law which classified battery by a relative as a special class was not repealed for the reason of baseless evil or whatever you are trying to portray.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 07, 2022, 01:59:43 PM

The domestic abuse law in Russia is the same as it is in some states in the US. If someone hits you, it's battery, and there is no special classification based on whether they are a family member.

Why the need to spend any energy eliminating the law?

Quote
There were arguments about that Russian domestic abuse law on whether the situation is more grievous when a stranger attacks you, or whether a trusted family member attacks you. That argument was not resolved and is obviously highly situational, and so there is only one general battery law. The domestic abuse law which classified battery by a relative as a special class was not repealed for baseless evil or whatever you are trying to portray.

Because of course you are going to argue that a stranger slapping you is probably as bad as an intimate partner doing the same. lol

Don't think I didn't notice you not responding to Putin trampling people's personal liberties and the war crimes he has perpetrated either.  I know you are furiously googling something to cherry pick, please get back to us when you have.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 07, 2022, 08:55:59 PM
Quote from: stack
I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

Incorrect. I do not know what drugs you have been taking, but you have it backwards. Reagan was not an enemy to Russia. Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal and with respect. It was, in fact, Reagan's peace and friendship with Russia that helped end the Cold War.

I guess I didn't realize that Gorbachev and Putin were the same person, with the same exact ideals and actions and visions for the USSR/Russia. Was Krushchev the same person as well? What about Stalin?

Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal because we bankrupted the USSR with the arms race and Gorbachev was willing to re-unite Germany, lean into capitalism, and essentially end the cold war. How does Putin compare to that?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 07, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
There is no way that Reagan would have given Gorbachev more of Europe to gain his political support.





Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 07, 2022, 10:19:47 PM
Quote from: stack
I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

Incorrect. I do not know what drugs you have been taking, but you have it backwards. Reagan was not an enemy to Russia. Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal and with respect. It was, in fact, Reagan's peace and friendship with Russia that helped end the Cold War.
There you go again, confusing the man with the nation.  Regan may have respected Gorbachev, but he repeatedly referred to the USSR as the "Evil Empire".
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/reagan-refers-to-u-s-s-r-as-evil-empire-again
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2022, 12:16:07 AM
Quote from: stack
I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

Incorrect. I do not know what drugs you have been taking, but you have it backwards. Reagan was not an enemy to Russia. Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal and with respect. It was, in fact, Reagan's peace and friendship with Russia that helped end the Cold War.
There you go again, confusing the man with the nation.  Regan may have respected Gorbachev, but he repeatedly referred to the USSR as the "Evil Empire".
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/reagan-refers-to-u-s-s-r-as-evil-empire-again

Actually he backtracked on those 1983 remarks. By 1988 he declared that they were not an evil empire after all:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pTgIFpLuD6kC&lpg=PP1&pg=PR13#v=onepage&q&f=false

(https://i.imgur.com/gWDmL7M.png)

Reagan is known for leading the way in befriending Russia by building a friendship and understanding with the Russian leader. This is what helped to ease the Cold War and was a staple of Reagan's presidency.

In a direct contradiction to this, liberal hero Ukrainian President Zelensky is now calling on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" on Russia:

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1578097733860065281

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 08, 2022, 12:23:02 AM
In Zelenskyy defense he does speak Ukranian, Russian, and English so he might be in a good position to negotiate..   He's also a friend of Trump...
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 08, 2022, 12:32:56 AM
In a direct contradiction to this, liberal hero Ukrainian President Zelensky is now calling on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" on Russia:

I don't remember, did Gorbachev invade another nation?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 08, 2022, 12:37:35 AM
Actually he backtracked on those 1983 remarks. By 1988 he declared that they were not an evil empire after all:
Yes, that was around the time that the USSR was falling apart and Russia was starting down a path to democracy.  That's why Regan came to respect Gorbachev.

Putin is no Gorbachev.  In fact, Putin did much to undo the democratic reforms that Gorbachev started and Regan respected. 
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220831-gorbachev-s-love-hate-relationship-with-putin
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 08, 2022, 10:02:18 AM
Tom's approach to geopolitics apparently relies on a lack of object permanence. I guess that might work with some world leaders, actually.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2022, 07:15:20 PM
Yes, there is a direct comparison with Reagan's efforts at peace with Russia and the possibility of Ukraine's peace with Russia. Peace is not impossible. In March/April of this year there was a tentative peace deal between Ukraine and Russia, which Ukraine squashed.

March 16, 2022

https://www-ft-com.ezp-prod1.hul.harvard.edu/content/7b341e46-d375-4817-be67-802b7fa77ef1


April 3, 2022

https://web.archive.org/web/20220404023417/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/03/ukraines-negotiator-says-russia-agrees-almost-proposals/


April 7, 2022

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-ukraine-presented-unacceptable-draft-peace-deal-2022-04-07/


Actually he backtracked on those 1983 remarks. By 1988 he declared that they were not an evil empire after all:
Yes, that was around the time that the USSR was falling apart and Russia was starting down a path to democracy.  That's why Regan came to respect Gorbachev.

Putin is no Gorbachev.  In fact, Putin did much to undo the democratic reforms that Gorbachev started and Regan respected. 
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220831-gorbachev-s-love-hate-relationship-with-putin

Actually the article you posted says that Gorbachev ended up embracing Putin:

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2022, 10:13:19 PM
I see a contradiction here:

https://www.infobae.com/en/2022/04/20/ukraine-proposed-a-special-round-of-negotiations-with-russia-in-the-besieged-city-of-mariupol/

(https://i.imgur.com/t4WkEQi.png)

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-decree-ruling-out-peace-talks-with-putin-as-impossible/

(https://i.imgur.com/NCEgKQo.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 09, 2022, 10:23:01 PM
I see a contradiction here:

https://www.infobae.com/en/2022/04/20/ukraine-proposed-a-special-round-of-negotiations-with-russia-in-the-besieged-city-of-mariupol/

(https://i.imgur.com/t4WkEQi.png)

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-decree-ruling-out-peace-talks-with-putin-as-impossible/

(https://i.imgur.com/NCEgKQo.png)

Indeed.  Notice the dates those were published.  A lot has happened.  And after Ukraine blew up Putin's favorite bridge I think Russia is probably ruling out peace talks as well.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2022, 10:33:14 PM
Zelensky had also rejected peace days before the war had begun. Germany had attempted to broker a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia to avoid war. Zelensky rejected it.

Wall Street Journal - https://archive.ph/K39FE#selection-1671.0-1671.370

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 09, 2022, 10:41:05 PM
Zelensky had also rejected peace days before the war had begun. Germany had attempted to broker a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia to avoid war. Zelensky rejected it.

Wall Street Journal - https://archive.ph/K39FE#selection-1671.0-1671.370

    Mr. Scholz made one last push for a settlement between Moscow and Kyiv. He told Mr. Zelensky in Munich on Feb. 19 that Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia. The pact would be signed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Biden, who would jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security.

    Mr. Zelensky said Mr. Putin couldn’t be trusted to uphold such an agreement and that most Ukrainians wanted to join NATO. His answer left German officials worried that the chances of peace were fading.

Also Russia required Ukraine to give up a large part of its territory and dismantle its military.

Odd that zelensky didn't agree to that.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2022, 10:43:05 PM
Also Russia required Ukraine to give up a large part of its territory and dismantle its military.

Odd that zelensky didn't agree to that.

Incorrect. It does not say that in the link I provided. You have provided no source on that.

Even according to the Reuters timeline, it looks like NATO/Ukraine were the aggressors and were not interested in a peaceful solution to the Weapons-in-Ukraine/Ukraine-joining-NATO situation:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220308213432/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/events-leading-up-russias-invasion-ukraine-2022-02-28/

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 09, 2022, 10:55:06 PM
Also Russia required Ukraine to give up a large part of its territory and dismantle its military.

Odd that zelensky didn't agree to that.

Incorrect. It does not say that in the link I provided. You have provided no source on that.

Even according to the Reuters timeline, it looks like NATO/Ukraine were the aggressors and were not interested in a peaceful solution:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220308213432/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/events-leading-up-russias-invasion-ukraine-2022-02-28/

    Dec. 17 2021: Russia presents security demands including that NATO pull back troops and weapons from eastern Europe and bar Ukraine from ever joining.

    Jan. 24 2022: NATO puts forces on standby and reinforces eastern Europe with more ships and fighter jets.

    Jan. 26: Washington responds to Russia's security demands, repeating a commitment to NATO's "open-door" policy while offering a "pragmatic evaluation" of Moscow's concerns. Two days later Russia says its demands not addressed.

    Feb. 2022: Amid growing Western fears Russia could attack Ukraine, the United States says it will send 3,000 extra troops to NATO members Poland and Romania. Washington and allies say they will not send troops to Ukraine, but warn of severe economic sanctions if Russian President Vladimir Putin takes military action.

    Feb. 21: In a TV address, Putin says Ukraine is an integral part of Russian history and has a puppet regime managed by foreign powers. Putin orders what he called peacekeeping forces into two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine, after recognising them as independent.

    Feb. 22: The U.S., Britain and their allies sanction Russian parliament members, banks and other assets in response to Putin's troop order. Germany halts the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project.

    Feb. 23: Russian-backed separatist leaders ask Russia for help repelling aggression from the Ukrainian army.

    Feb. 24: Putin authorizes "special military operations" in Ukraine. Russian forces begin missile and artillery attacks, striking major Ukrainian cities including Kiev.

I can dig it up if you want later on.  This "peace" negotiation did progress along a steady path.  Putin's demand were all over the place.  I've seen neutrality as a demand.  It almost always included disarmament as a requirement for Russia's "legitimate security concerns".  Maybe you've found a few stories where he doesn't mention it but usually he does.  He just framed his demands in such a way that neutrality was always the first thing and disarmament was in the fine print.  The media, of course, fell for it and allowed him to muddy the waters.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: garygreen on October 09, 2022, 11:05:21 PM
yeah it's super weird that ukraine doesn't want to reward the nation that is illegally annexing them with a treaty to cede sovereign territory and let them dictate ukraine's foreign policy. so weird. i simply can't understand why z is being so unreasonable.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 10, 2022, 12:24:52 AM
Yes, there is a direct comparison with Reagan's efforts at peace with Russia and the possibility of Ukraine's peace with Russia.
When did Reagan order a "special operation" to "liberate" or "de-Nazify" any of the Soviet countries or territories?  ???
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 01:07:46 AM
yeah it's super weird that ukraine doesn't want to reward the nation that is illegally annexing them with a treaty to cede sovereign territory and let them dictate ukraine's foreign policy. so weird. i simply can't understand why z is being so unreasonable.

Annexation of territory can be a result of war. Here are a list of occupations and annexations in history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations

Russia and Ukraine are in war. Zelensky has had numerous opportunities for peace. However, he chose war.

When did Reagan order a "special operation" to "liberate" or "de-Nazify" any of the Soviet countries or territories?  ???

Reagan is known for seeking peace and friendship with Russia. He negotiated to appease Russia and come to agreement and understanding. Zelensky is known for attempting to join and bring in NATO even though he knew that it could start a war.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2022, 01:17:58 AM
yeah it's super weird that ukraine doesn't want to reward the nation that is illegally annexing them with a treaty to cede sovereign territory and let them dictate ukraine's foreign policy. so weird. i simply can't understand why z is being so unreasonable.

Annexation of territory can be a result of war. Here are a list of occupations and annexations in history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations

Russia and Ukraine are in war. Zelensky has had numerous opportunities for peace. However, he chose war.

He chose to have Russia invade Ukraine?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 01:56:39 AM
yeah it's super weird that ukraine doesn't want to reward the nation that is illegally annexing them with a treaty to cede sovereign territory and let them dictate ukraine's foreign policy. so weird. i simply can't understand why z is being so unreasonable.

Annexation of territory can be a result of war. Here are a list of occupations and annexations in history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations

Russia and Ukraine are in war. Zelensky has had numerous opportunities for peace. However, he chose war.

He chose to have Russia invade Ukraine?

Zelensky knew that there was a conflict with Russia that could escalate to war. He did not back down and seek a peaceful solution. He could have sought peace and compromise. Instead we see an exchanging of threats.

https://news.yahoo.com/kremlin-says-ukraine-may-force-110336268.html

Tensions grow over Ukraine with the trading of threats

December 2, 2021


Ukraine is a border country to Russia. The presence of NATO near Russia represents an existential threat, similar to the Cuban Missile Crisis for the US. Countries generally do not like troop movements or enemy armament buildup near them. Zelensky and Ukraine certainly knew this, and certainly knew that what they were doing risked war.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2022, 02:19:31 AM
So you think if someone is getting bullied, they should do what the bully wants?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 02:25:11 AM
Quote from: Rama Set
So you think if someone is getting bullied, they should do what the bully wants?

If you are being bullied should you:

A. Seek peace and a peaceful solution
B. Try to get a gang together to escalate threats and physical confrontation

Ukraine chose B.


Zelensky knew that he was taunting Russia by attempting to join NATO and receiving NATO weapons. He also knew that his actions could result in war.

Here is Ukraine announcing directly that they were being armed by the US in the days leading up to the war:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/03/04/weapons-access-ukraine/

Quote
As Russia’s military buildup pressed against Ukraine’s border in late January and early February, Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov celebrated the arrival of weapons from the West, illustrating his near-daily tweets with photographs of smiling men in uniform unloading heavy pallets from cargo aircraft.

“The 8th [American] bird has arrived in Kyiv!” Reznikov exulted on Feb. 5. “Our partners from #USA have sent more than 650 tons of defense ammunition to Ukraine! To be continued.”

The last such message came on Feb. 23, the day before Russia invaded.


There have been no known air deliveries since then. Ukraine’s airspace is now part of a war zone that no Western nation wants to enter, even as the United States and its allies and partners pledge to deliver more weaponry for the fight.

Ukraine proclaimed publicly that they were being armed by the US. This did not come out of the blue.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: garygreen on October 10, 2022, 02:35:22 AM
call me crazy but i feel like if you declare war on a sovereign nation then you are the one who caused a war with a sovereign nation. especially if you follow it up by sending a few hundred thousand troops across their borders to start killing people and capturing cities and such.

"but they wouldn't let us dictate their foreign policy!!!!!!!!" is a justification, i guess, but it's kind of a bad one imo imho.

lol let me guess — you're a huge fan of neville chamberlain
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 03:10:57 AM
Russia didn't want NATO in Ukraine and stated that presence of NATO troops or NATO weapons on Ukrainian soil represented a “red line.”

NATO proceeded to provoke Russia by sending weapons to Ukraine in the days leading up to the war:

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/24/1075383856/some-nato-allies-are-sending-military-aid-to-ukraine

Some European allies send weapons to Ukraine while Germany holds back

January 24, 2022


Germany refused to send weapons to Ukraine, stating that it would inflame tensions.

It is pretty clear that NATO and Ukraine had every opportunity to back down, and knew that they were escalating the situation with their actions.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 10, 2022, 03:31:21 AM
Russia didn't want NATO in Ukraine and stated that presence of NATO troops and weapons on Ukrainian soil represents a “red line.”
Ukraine first expressed interest in joining NATO in 1992 and applied in 2008.  However, they dropped their application in 2010.  It wasn't until Russia annexed Crimea that Ukraine renewed their desire to join NATO and Russia's "special operation" seems to be not only putting Ukraine application on the fast track for membership but also causing other neighboring countries to seek membership.  So it looks like's Putin's invasion to stop NATO's eastward expansion is having pretty much the opposite effect that he intended.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2022, 04:21:04 AM
Russia didn't want NATO in Ukraine and stated that presence of NATO troops and weapons on Ukrainian soil represented a “red line.”

NATO proceeded to provoke Russia by sending weapons to Ukraine in the days leading up to the war:

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/24/1075383856/some-nato-allies-are-sending-military-aid-to-ukraine

Some European allies send weapons to Ukraine while Germany holds back

January 24, 2022

    "Germany is not sending weapons to Kyiv. It says this would only inflame tensions with Russia. Instead, Germany is sending a field hospital through Estonia. This dismays Constanze Stelzenmuller, an expert on Germany and security issues at the Brookings Institution."

    "Today in Moscow, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the weapons coming into Ukraine have raised tensions."

Germany refused to send weapons to Ukraine, stating that it would inflame tensions.

It is pretty clear that NATO and Ukraine had every opportunity to back down, and knew that they were escalating the situation with its actions.

Why aren’t you condemning Russia for not seeking a peaceful solution? It is pretty clear Russia knew they were escalating the situation with their actions and they had every opportunity to back down. Unlike Ukraine, they actually invaded a sovereign country, but hey tell us more about how Ukraine is wrong for fighting their invaders.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 10, 2022, 05:05:23 AM
It is pretty clear that NATO and Ukraine had every opportunity to back down, and knew that they were escalating the situation with their actions.

I'm pretty sure Russia created and escalated tension when they did this:

(https://i.imgur.com/b7mDssN.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 10, 2022, 05:28:10 AM
Russia didn't want NATO in Ukraine and stated that presence of NATO troops and NATO weapons on Ukrainian soil represented a “red line.”

NATO proceeded to provoke Russia by sending weapons to Ukraine in the days leading up to the war:

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/24/1075383856/some-nato-allies-are-sending-military-aid-to-ukraine

Some European allies send weapons to Ukraine while Germany holds back

January 24, 2022

    "Germany is not sending weapons to Kyiv. It says this would only inflame tensions with Russia. Instead, Germany is sending a field hospital through Estonia. This dismays Constanze Stelzenmuller, an expert on Germany and security issues at the Brookings Institution."

    "Today in Moscow, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the weapons coming into Ukraine have raised tensions."

Germany refused to send weapons to Ukraine, stating that it would inflame tensions.

It is pretty clear that NATO and Ukraine had every opportunity to back down, and knew that they were escalating the situation with their actions.

We provoked them?  You mean Joe Brandon with his genius level IQ tricked slow witted Vladamir Putin into invading Ukraine?

I have a homework assignment for you. read the wikipedia articles on what the state of the Ukrainian Army was in February 2022 and what we gave them exactly.  I think the results will be enlightening for you.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Action80 on October 10, 2022, 07:37:05 AM
call me crazy but i feel like if you declare war on a sovereign nation then you are the one who caused a war with a sovereign nation. especially if you follow it up by sending a few hundred thousand troops across their borders to start killing people and capturing cities and such.

"but they wouldn't let us dictate their foreign policy!!!!!!!!" is a justification, i guess, but it's kind of a bad one imo imho.

lol let me guess — you're a huge fan of neville chamberlain
Seems to me you are the HUGE fan of uncle NEV... He too sought to allow NAZI"S to do as they wish.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 10, 2022, 11:07:32 AM
Seems to me you are the HUGE fan of uncle NEV... He too sought to allow NAZI"S to do as they wish.

You mean like these Nazis...

(https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/nazi-rally.jpeg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 10, 2022, 12:05:02 PM
Ukraine can achieve peace with Russia the same way Afghanistan got peace when Russia invaded them. They just beat the crap out of the Russians for years until they leave.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 10, 2022, 02:27:31 PM
Zel got a boo boo today.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fes9avLaMAAMrGi?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 10, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
Breaking: Volodymyr Zelensky's office has reportedly been destroyed by a missile strike in Central Kyiv, according to Ukrainian Media.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1579396268606238720
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 10, 2022, 03:09:29 PM
Putin bombs his office on Monday because everyday is Monday? Think he got him?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1501035422578708491
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 10, 2022, 07:55:14 PM
Yes.  The heroic Russians really stuck it Ukraine by bravely destroying many playgrounds and daycare centers today.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 10, 2022, 08:02:50 PM
Yes.  The heroic Russians really stuck it Ukraine by bravely destroying many playgrounds and daycare centers today.
But have you considered that bombing civilians is very based and that it super-owns the libs? It's really a refreshing breath of fresh air, and it's gonna land me a 10/10 m'lady tradwife any moment now.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 10, 2022, 08:15:36 PM
Seems legit, all's fair in love, war, playgrounds, and intersections...

(https://i.imgur.com/CoZcqor.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/9guI1kq.gif)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2022, 08:43:06 PM
Yes.  The heroic Russians really stuck it Ukraine by bravely destroying many playgrounds and daycare centers today.
But have you considered that bombing civilians is very based and that it super-owns the libs? It's really a refreshing breath of fresh air, and it's gonna land me a 10/10 m'lady tradwife any moment now.

Yeah. Playgrounds being bombed is so 1hundoP the fault of the Ukrainians, so like suck it libs.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 08:50:05 PM
I don't see any evidence that Russia was aiming for civilians. The death toll is reported to be about 11 from missile attacks on 16 cities. Even Ukraine has stated that Russia was aiming for the energy infrastructure and that the missile strikes were on "the entire chain of supply":

https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-energy-exports-idAFL1N31B18E

Quote
“Today’s missile strikes, which hit the thermal generation and electrical substations, forced Ukraine to suspend electricity exports from Oct. 11, 2022 to stabilize its own energy system,” the ministry said in a statement on its website.

Russia earlier on Monday launched its most widespread missile strikes on Ukraine since the start of the conflict, raining cruise missiles on cities and knocking out power supplies, in what Russian President Vladimir Putin called revenge for a blown up bridge.

Ukraine’s energy minister Herman Halushchenko said the attacks on the energy system were “the biggest during the entire war.”

In a TV broadcast he said that missile strikes “on the entire chain of supply (were made) in order to make switching supply as difficult as possible.”
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 09:06:26 PM
7 News Miami - https://wsvn.com/news/us-world/russia-unleashes-biggest-attacks-in-ukraine-in-months-at-least-11-dead/


11 dead, 70 infrastructure sites struck, involving 84 cruise missiles and 24 drones.

Yes, from this we can conclude that Russia was obviously targeting civilian life. ::)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 10, 2022, 09:21:56 PM
I don't see any evidence that Russia was aiming for civilians.
Do you see any evidence that Russia was aiming for military targets or military infrastructure?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 10, 2022, 09:49:26 PM
I don't see any evidence that Russia was aiming for civilians.
I guess this makes sense; considering Russia's military technology and competence appear to be worse than they were during Stalin's reign, I'd be surprised if they were able to "aim" at anything.

Even Ukraine has stated that Russia was aiming for the energy infrastructure
You know, I don't think the argument of "noooo, they didn't do this particular war crime, they were clearly committing a much worse one!!!!" is the slam-dunk you're looking for.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 10, 2022, 10:01:10 PM
It is a fair point.  Quite a few Russian missile seem to hit rivers and open fields, sometime even exploding before they launch.  We almost don't have a way of knowing what they were actually aiming for.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 10:15:28 PM
Listen to yourselves. In your hysteria you are doubling down on the claim that Russia was trying to inflict mass civilian casualty, or was aiming at nothing in particular in the cities, and are now claiming they have terrible missiles that can't aim. Yet somehow they missed the civilians and coincidentally hit 70 infrastructure sites. In the recent quotes we saw that Ukraine indicated that Russia was was attacking "the entire chain of supply" of the energy system, hitting thermal generation and electrical substations.

But no, according to the narrative made up on the spot Russia must be trying to kill, or are indifferent to the killing of civilians in mass murder, and has terrible missiles and aim. So Russia Bad!

Instead of admitting the obvious that Russia is not intending civilian casualties, we find some kind of convoluted scenario where Russia has worse weapons than the Soviet Union and the energy infrastructure struck is a coincidence. 
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 10, 2022, 10:29:17 PM
No, Tom, targeting critical civilian infrastructure is what I described as "the worse crime". The fact that they were so bad at aiming that they ended up striking playgrounds, random roads, and often just air is just the cherry on top, a funny joke at the expense of a crippled rogue state.

Your inability to read what's being said does not make your claims of hysteria better, by the way. In fact, it reminds me of the time you mistook someone's personal blog for a good source of quotes from prominent figures. Guess who comes across as hysterical. 🤔

You used to be so good at this, Tom. Drop the shitlordery and get back to what you do well.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 10, 2022, 10:47:15 PM
Your inability to read what's being said does not make your claims of hysteria better, by the way.

I didn't have a tough time reading what was said. This was your initial claim:

But have you considered that bombing civilians is very based and that it super-owns the libs? It's really a refreshing breath of fresh air, and it's gonna land me a 10/10 m'lady tradwife any moment now.

You claimed or strongly implied that Russia was bombing civilians.

This is your most recent claim:

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
No, Tom, targeting critical civilian infrastructure is what I described as "the worse crime". The fact that they were so bad at aiming that they ended up striking playgrounds, random roads, and often just air is just the cherry on top, a funny joke at the expense of a crippled rogue state.

You are now admitting that Russia was targeting civilian infrastructure, and only accidentally killed civilians, which is a substantially different context than the characterization thrown around in this thread recently of "bombing civilians" and "bombing playgrounds".

The philosophizing of what is a worse crime between bombing civilians or civilian infrastructure just a moving of goal posts and irrelevant to what I was responding to. Your original statement was inaccurate and I am simply pointing out to you that you are unjustly demonizing Russia based on media hype and personal feelings rather than facts.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 10, 2022, 10:49:58 PM
Instead of admitting the obvious that Russia is not intending civilian casualties, we find some kind of convoluted scenario where Russia has worse weapons than the Soviet Union and the energy infrastructure struck is a coincidence.
No Tom, Russia is most certainly intending civilian casualties.  The number of civilian casualties is irrelevant to the fact that it's still a terrorist attack.

Russia keeps whining about Ukraine being a bunch of terrorists for having the audacity to defend their sovereign territory, yet who is the one indiscriminately hitting civilian targets?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 10, 2022, 10:55:27 PM
You claimed or strongly implied that Russia was bombing civilians.
So you did have difficulties understanding me - after all, no reasonable person would interpret that post quite so literally. Thank you for confirming! Crazy how these things go in the heat of the moment, especially when you're so preoccupied with defending literal acts of terror.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 10, 2022, 11:03:12 PM
Speaking of shitlords clamouring for relevancy through meaningless controversy, Daddy Elon has been working very hard to fix everything:

https://twitter.com/BomsteinRick/status/1579218217842593792
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 11, 2022, 12:39:42 AM
The death toll is reported to be about 11 from missile attacks on 16 cities.

So just to try and clear up two things.

11 dead, 87 injured.

- Do the 87 injured not count and only the death toll matters?

Just to be crystal clear:

- Are you pro-Russian invasion and annexation of Ukraine? If so, why?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 11, 2022, 02:36:56 AM
So you did have difficulties understanding me - after all, no reasonable person would interpret that post quite so literally.

So you are now arguing that really knew the truth from the start that Russia wasn't purposely targeting civilians, in contradiction to your statement that they were bombing civilians, and that we shouldn't take you at your literal word. Ie. "I didn't really mean that!" Right. Nice argument.

Instead of admitting the obvious that Russia is not intending civilian casualties, we find some kind of convoluted scenario where Russia has worse weapons than the Soviet Union and the energy infrastructure struck is a coincidence.
No Tom, Russia is most certainly intending civilian casualties.  The number of civilian casualties is irrelevant to the fact that it's still a terrorist attack.

Russia keeps whining about Ukraine being a bunch of terrorists for having the audacity to defend their sovereign territory, yet who is the one indiscriminately hitting civilian targets?

Terrorism is a bit out of line considering that  there is no consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) on whether the US Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombings against Japan during WWII were acts of terrorism.

It is currently argued that Ukraine's recent bridge bombing was not terrorism because the Russian military uses the bridge in addition to its normal civilian use. It is argued that anything your opponent's military uses is a valid target. Unless you are prepared to argue that the Ukrainian Military, Government, or Defense Industry does not use electricity I don't really see that you have a valid counter to that argument.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/ukraines-attack-on-kerch-bridge-was-not-terrorism

(https://i.imgur.com/DmmrSyl.jpg)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 11, 2022, 03:05:49 AM
Terrorism is a bit out of line considering that it has there is no consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) on whether the US Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombings against Japan during WWII were acts of terrorism.

Quote from: https://www.britannica.com/topic/terrorism
terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.

Attacking residential areas in order to instill fear in the population sounds like terrorism to me.

It is currently argued that Ukraine's recent bridge bombing was not terrorism because the Russian military uses the bridge in addition to its normal civilian use. Unless you are prepared to argue that the Ukrainian Military, Government, or Defense Industry does not use electricity I don't really see that you have a valid counterargument to that argument.

Hitting infrastructure is one thing.  Hitting apartment buildings is quite another.  That is unless you want to argue that apartment complexes are fair game because soldiers need some place to sleep at night.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 11, 2022, 03:41:52 AM
Terrorism is a bit out of line considering that it has there is no consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) on whether the US Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear bombings against Japan during WWII were acts of terrorism.

Quote from: https://www.britannica.com/topic/terrorism
terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.

Attacking residential areas in order to instill fear in the population sounds like terrorism to me.

I would suggest you read the article I linked. Part of the Support side is that every man, woman, and child in Japan were engaged in the war effort under Total War and they were seen as military targets, rather than an unconnected population like your definition suggests. See this quote from General Curtis LeMay on why he ordered the systematic carpet bombing of Japanese cities:


If this is true, then Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be construed as strikes against military targets, as the population was directly connected to the war effort.

It is interesting that many US commanders were not entirely happy with this approach of bombing the population and designating them as military targets, however, and subsequently made significant effort to warn cities with copious leaflets preceding an impending attack.

https://www.atomicheritage.org/key-documents/warning-leaflets


By these actions it could also be argued that the Japanese people were given warning to evacuate and disperse, and so it was not terror. They did their best to warn and inform. They even warned them about the atomic bombs, also on that page.

Quote from: markjo
Hitting infrastructure is one thing.  Hitting apartment buildings is quite another.  That is unless you want to argue that apartment complexes are fair game because soldiers need some place to sleep at night.

Russia has bombers and missiles with very high yield. If they wanted to cause mass civilian causality they could do so. It would be crystal clear that Russia is going after civilian deaths rather than something you have to argue about. It may be the case that Russia is indifferent to civilian casualties, but it is clear that they are not going out of their way to cause it.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 11, 2022, 03:53:18 AM
... but did you know, America bad?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 11, 2022, 06:51:35 AM
So you are now arguing that really knew the truth from the start
Of course, I am doing no such thing, and you are not silly enough to believe otherwise. It's such a shame that you have to resort to the "UHHHH SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS SOMETHING NOBODY SAID, NICE" line of argumentation.

Keep on tiltin' at them windmills; I'm sure everyone will realise how hysterical they are any moment now. Alternatively, let us know when you're ready to discuss reality.

It may be the case that Russia is indifferent to civilian casualties, but it is clear that they are not going out of their way to cause it.
The orcs are sounding more and more benevolent by the day!
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 11, 2022, 04:13:20 PM
So, I just watched a short video of Putin saying he wants peace and end the war.  I believe him.

Once the Donbass regions were admitted into Russia then Russia has achieved it's goals in the war.   

So, here we are.  We could not stop him from acquiring anything in Ukraine.  It has happened. 

We can continue to fight, and fight, and fight, or we can try to think diplomatically.  On what terms can we agree to a ceasefire?

I don't think we are getting the Donbass regions back.  They do not want to be part of the new government of Ukraine and have been fighting for independence for a decade. 

Crimea is an interesting topic.  I'm still not comfortable with Russia's annexation of it. They did not win themselves any friends.

Before the war started in 2014, Ukraine and Russia docked there naval fleets together in Crimea.  Russia took there ships and started to return them but cited violence in Donbass would make them keep the rest of them. Although they have not been converted into the Russian fleet.

My hope is that if Russia and Ukraine can agree on a suitable form of government in Ukraine  then the possibility of Ukraine playing a bigger part in Crimea is realistic. 

I guess the alternative is to go with the Western narrative that Russia sucks, they're wrong, and do not appreciate Ukrainian free will.  And we can continue to fight until we are blue in the face and recruit all of Ukraine and anyone else to join.  It's a beautiful idea...

I just have doubts as to the absoluteness of "our" cause meaning Western-Ukrainian relations.  And I don't want to encourage an endless war in light of this.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 11, 2022, 04:33:19 PM
Why does this remind me so much of the build up before WW2?  With Germany invading nations then asking for peace if only they could keep this land....
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 11, 2022, 04:42:52 PM
So, here we are.  We could not stop him from acquiring anything in Ukraine.  It has happened.
Why? Because he said so?

Hey, Tron, I'm appointing my friend Dave as the Official Mayor of your home. I've asked Dave, the official representative for your household, if he'd like to give your house away to me. He said yes.

It has happened. Please pack your things and be ready to get out of my house by Friday.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 11, 2022, 06:13:50 PM
My hope is that if Russia and Ukraine can agree on a suitable form of government in Ukraine  then the possibility of Ukraine playing a bigger part in Crimea is realistic. 

Russia doesn't have shit to say about the government in Ukraine. It's not their country it's not their business.
 The imaginary Nazi threat to Europe is just Russia's excuse to invade. Not even the Russians believe it.

If all these former Soviet countries wanted to rejoin the Soviet Union, they would have done so already. They wouldn't need to be invaded. They wouldn't have left in the first place.

But hey, maybe it's time that that the United States dealt with the Socialist threat from Canada. We can't let them terrorize North America with their extremist government.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 11, 2022, 07:09:12 PM
So, here we are.  We could not stop him from acquiring anything in Ukraine.  It has happened.
Why? Because he said so?

Hey, Tron, I'm appointing my friend Dave as the Official Mayor of your home. I've asked Dave, the official representative for your household, if he'd like to give your house away to me. He said yes.

It has happened. Please pack your things and be ready to get out of my house by Friday.

Let's see.  Pete votes yes.  Dave votes yes.  After careful consideration I vote yes.

Sorry Tron.  Looks like you're out.  If you disagree with this then you are a warmonger.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 11, 2022, 07:19:41 PM
Okay, we'll see how the cards fall.   :-X
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 11, 2022, 09:03:42 PM
It may be the case that Russia is indifferent to civilian casualties, but it is clear that they are not going out of their way to cause it.
Maybe to you, but it's pretty clear to me that they aren't going out of their way to avoid it either.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 12, 2022, 07:29:34 AM
So, here we are.  We could not stop him from acquiring anything in Ukraine.  It has happened.
Why? Because he said so?

Hey, Tron, I'm appointing my friend Dave as the Official Mayor of your home. I've asked Dave, the official representative for your household, if he'd like to give your house away to me. He said yes.

It has happened. Please pack your things and be ready to get out of my house by Friday.

As Dave, I accepted this role as the majority of the household clearly wanted me to have this role.  The level of nazi corruption can now be cleansed.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2022, 06:19:49 AM
It may be the case that Russia is indifferent to civilian casualties, but it is clear that they are not going out of their way to cause it.
Maybe to you, but it's pretty clear to me that they aren't going out of their way to avoid it either.

When Russia does anything in the same ballpark as the atrocities the US committed in bombing Iraq and other places, which the same media outlets criticizing Russia whitewash for the US, let me know. Until then this Russia Evil narrative is obviously just liberal media hype.

https://youtu.be/RM0uvgHKZe8
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2022, 01:06:53 PM
It may be the case that Russia is indifferent to civilian casualties, but it is clear that they are not going out of their way to cause it.
Maybe to you, but it's pretty clear to me that they aren't going out of their way to avoid it either.

When Russia does anything in the same ballpark as the atrocities the US committed in bombing Iraq and other places, which the same media outlets criticizing Russia whitewash for the US, let me know. Until then this Russia Evil narrative is obviously just liberal media hype.


Is that really the best you can do? An irrelevant whatabuotism?  Nevermind that there are tons of atrocities committed by the USSR and Russia because those are as irrelevant to the current situation as the US's many war crimes over the years.  More relevant might be the white-washing of current Russian atrocities and pro-nuclear war propaganda currently being broadcast by Russian state media.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2022, 06:59:47 PM
So your reply is to concede that the media whitewashes information and demonizes or hypes up certain things over others. Your reply also concedes that the US, who is prime lead in NATO and beloved by the media, has done far more evil than anything it is claimed that Russia has done in this war.

If the media can't be trusted, and the allegedly good side in this is actually incredibly evil, then I don't see that there is any reason to believe that Russia is doing anything wrong at all. Your sources are tainted. Russia might be rightfully defending itself against NATO, saving the ethnic Russians in the annexed regions from harassment as they claim to be doing, and fighting according to the rules of war.

There have been recent stories on the media that Russia is planting explosives under the beds of children. Should we blindly believe this too?

https://twitter.com/GoodingDuncan/status/1528346855389777920
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 13, 2022, 07:29:40 PM
So your reply is to concede that the media whitewashes information and demonizes or hypes up certain things over others. Your reply also concedes that the US, who is prime lead in NATO and beloved by the media, has done far more evil than anything it is claimed that Russia has done in this war.

If the media can't be trusted, and the allegedly good side in this is actually an incredibly evil warmonger, then I don't see that there is any reason to believe that Russia is doing anything wrong at all. Your sources are tainted. Russia might be rightfully defending itself against NATO, saving the ethnic Russians in the annexed regions from harassment as they claim to be doing, and fighting according to the rules of war.

There have been recent stories on the media that Russia is planting explosives under the beds of children. Should we blindly believe this too?

https://twitter.com/GoodingDuncan/status/1528346855389777920

I like how you compare over 200 years worth of history to 9 months worth of warfare and claim moral superiority.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2022, 08:16:33 PM
 :-X
So your reply is to concede that the media whitewashes information and demonizes or hypes up certain things over others. Your reply also concedes that the US, who is prime lead in NATO and beloved by the media, has done far more evil than anything it is claimed that Russia has done in this war.

If the media can't be trusted, and the allegedly good side in this is actually incredibly evil, then I don't see that there is any reason to believe that Russia is doing anything wrong at all. Your sources are tainted. Russia might be rightfully defending itself against NATO, saving the ethnic Russians in the annexed regions from harassment as they claim to be doing, and fighting according to the rules of war.

That’s just a non sequitur. No one said the media can’t be trusted on anything, anytime. You are just full of… fallacies today.

Quote
There have been recent stories on the media that Russia is planting explosives under the beds of children. Should we blindly believe this too?

You shouldn’t blindly believe anything and I’ve never said otherwise. You seem to be stumbling along, unable to parse the facts. Maybe post less memes and read more?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 13, 2022, 08:29:26 PM
It may be the case that Russia is indifferent to civilian casualties, but it is clear that they are not going out of their way to cause it.
Maybe to you, but it's pretty clear to me that they aren't going out of their way to avoid it either.

When Russia does anything in the same ballpark as the atrocities the US committed in bombing Iraq and other places, which the same media outlets criticizing Russia whitewash for the US, let me know. Until then this Russia Evil narrative is obviously just liberal media hype.

Let me know when you get a reliable source for your outrageous claims.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/08/04/saddam-hussein-said-sanctions-killed-500000-children-that-was-a-spectacular-lie/
Quote
“The government of Iraq cleverly manipulated survey data to fool the international community,” the report said, describing the figure of 500,000 deaths as “a massive fraud.”
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2022, 08:44:08 PM
It may be the case that Russia is indifferent to civilian casualties, but it is clear that they are not going out of their way to cause it.
Maybe to you, but it's pretty clear to me that they aren't going out of their way to avoid it either.

When Russia does anything in the same ballpark as the atrocities the US committed in bombing Iraq and other places, which the same media outlets criticizing Russia whitewash for the US, let me know. Until then this Russia Evil narrative is obviously just liberal media hype.

Let me know when you get a reliable source for your outrageous claims.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/08/04/saddam-hussein-said-sanctions-killed-500000-children-that-was-a-spectacular-lie/
Quote
“The government of Iraq cleverly manipulated survey data to fool the international community,” the report said, describing the figure of 500,000 deaths as “a massive fraud.”

The liberal media is not a reliable source. It's calling the UN's own data a fraud. It claims that UNICEF didn't know what it was doing when they collected the data and is claiming it was all manipulated -

https://www.gicj.org/positions-opinons/gicj-positions-and-opinions/1188-razing-the-truth-about-sanctions-against-iraq

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 13, 2022, 09:10:23 PM
Tom, if you read the sources cited (including your own) you will see that the 500,000 dead children claim is supposed to be a result of UN sanctions, not US bombing or war crimes that you claimed.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2022, 09:15:10 PM
Tom acts as if the media is a monolith, all reporting the same thing, the same way with the same methods. It just exposes that all he can do is try to provoke outrage. Kinda sad.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 13, 2022, 11:18:11 PM
Tom has gone full circle and has now reached an argument I've only seen from brain rotted tankie liberals.  It goes:

Normal people:  Hey, Russia is butchering people.  We've got to do something!

Tom:  Yes but did you know, America bad?


It's interesting logic.  Because America has done some pretty bad things to other countries in our history that disqualifies us from obstructing other countries from doing bad things.

To put it into more concrete terms, because America invaded Iraq under false pretenses we must allow Russia to erase Ukraine from the map.  By sacrificing Ukraine we cleanse ourselves of the sin of the Iraq invasion.  And this is where Tom has landed with this war I suppose.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 14, 2022, 12:30:56 AM
To put it into more concrete terms, because America invaded Iraq under false pretenses we must allow Russia to erase Ukraine from the map.  By sacrificing Ukraine we cleanse ourselves of the sin of the Iraq invasion.  And this is where Tom has landed with this war I suppose.
Check me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that America annexed chunks of Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the countries that we invaded since WWII.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 14, 2022, 12:51:36 AM
To put it into more concrete terms, because America invaded Iraq under false pretenses we must allow Russia to erase Ukraine from the map.  By sacrificing Ukraine we cleanse ourselves of the sin of the Iraq invasion.  And this is where Tom has landed with this war I suppose.
Check me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that America annexed chunks of Iraq, Afghanistan or any of the countries that we invaded since WWII.

It was the closest example I could think of.  Not nearly as bad as Russia's invasion but still probably not something we should have done.

Iraq that is.  Afghanistan is debatable.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on October 14, 2022, 02:48:40 AM
America's invasion of Iraq has a big role in a lot of the bullshit going on around the world. Now, any country, at any time, can point at someone else screaming 'terrorist' or 'wmd!!' and suddenly they have the right to invade someone else. The only winner in the Iraq war was the Iranians, whose disinformation whipped up the American rednecks into invading and destroying their mortal enemy, Saddam Hussein.

This has nothing to do with Putin's work to rebuild the Soviet Union through force.

Tom just needs to come clean and admit that he thinks Putin's expansion in Europe is a good thing. Steven Seagal and Roger Waters have owned it. Let's hear about how Russia's fair and just society will stabilize Europe, the planet and American family values.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2022, 03:30:29 AM
Quote from:
Dr Van Nostrand
Tom just needs to come clean and admit that he thinks Putin's expansion in Europe is a good thing.

If Putin's goal is simply to "expand" how is it a coincidence that he has only annexed the areas where ethnic Russians were being slaughtered and was the primary point of contention between Russia and Ukraine since 2014?

(https://i.imgur.com/WfTEEVv.jpg)

This is clearly a humanitarian mission, and not "expanding into Europe" or whatever nonsense you have made up.

Tom, if you read the sources cited (including your own) you will see that the 500,000 dead children claim is supposed to be a result of UN sanctions, not US bombing or war crimes that you claimed.

Children generally don't die on their own. The number is counting a combination of the bombings and sanctions which denied needed medical care -

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/mar/04/weekend7.weekend9

"This is a war against the children of Iraq on two fronts: bombing, which in the last year cost the British taxpayer £60 million. And the most ruthless embargo in modern history."

"Half a million children have died in Iraq since UN sanctions were imposed - most enthusiastically by Britain and the US. Three UN officials have resigned in despair. Meanwhile, bombing of Iraq continues almost daily. John Pilger investigates"

"Under economic sanctions imposed by the United Nations Security Council almost 10 years ago, Iraq is denied equipment and expertise to clean up its contaminated battle-fields, as Kuwait was cleaned up. At the same time, the Sanctions Committee in New York, dominated by the Americans and British, has blocked or delayed a range of vital equipment, chemotherapy drugs and even pain-killers."


Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 14, 2022, 04:59:48 AM
Quote from:
Dr Van Nostrand
Tom just needs to come clean and admit that he thinks Putin's expansion in Europe is a good thing.

If Putin's goal is simply to "expand" how is it a coincidence that he has only annexed the areas where ethnic Russians were being slaughtered and was the primary point of contention between Russia and Ukraine since 2014?

(https://i.imgur.com/WfTEEVv.jpg)

This is clearly a humanitarian mission, and not "expanding into Europe" or whatever nonsense you have made up.



Sudetenland.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 14, 2022, 06:18:12 AM
Wow, now we're subjected to quotes from the hack pseudo-comedian, Jimmy Dore?  ::)

Looks like he was looking to annex a bunch more than just the Donbas...

(https://static.dw.com/image/61006025_7.png)



Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2022, 06:40:25 AM
Quote from:
Dr Van Nostrand
Tom just needs to come clean and admit that he thinks Putin's expansion in Europe is a good thing.

If Putin's goal is simply to "expand" how is it a coincidence that he has only annexed the areas where ethnic Russians were being slaughtered and was the primary point of contention between Russia and Ukraine since 2014?

(https://i.imgur.com/WfTEEVv.jpg)

This is clearly a humanitarian mission, and not "expanding into Europe" or whatever nonsense you have made up.
Isn't that just the areas he currently holds?  Seems awfully convenient he only annexes the areas he held at the time and not other areas or even Kyiv.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2022, 09:23:49 AM
This page clearly describes that there has been conflict and fighting in those areas since 2014 between Russian separatists and Ukraine:

https://greekreporter.com/2022/09/30/history-donbas-donetsk-luhansk/

The History of Donbas’ Donetsk and Luhansk Regions Annexed by Russia

September 30, 2022

"Now home to a majority of Russian-speaking people, they moved there only in recent decades. Now, Russia has given more than 720,000 Russian passports to roughly one-fifth of the region’s population, according to The Associated Press."

"In March of 2014, following the Euromaidan and the 2014 Ukrainian revolution, large swaths of the Donbas experienced major unrest. This later grew into a war, with pro-Russian separatists affiliated with the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk “People’s Republics”"

"Pro-Russian separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions took over government buildings in 2014, proclaiming the regions as independent “people’s republics” after Russia’s annexation of Crimea from Ukraine.

Since 2014, more than 14,000 people have been killed in fighting in the Donbas region between pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian forces."

"On Monday, Putin announced the independence of the regions after meeting with the Russian Security Council following a video appeal by the regions’ separatist leaders for the recognition of independence.

Each of the regions has its own self-proclaimed president, with Denis Pushilin elected in 2018 to lead the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, while Leonid Pasechnik is the leader of the Luhansk separatist region.

Russia’s recognition of the independence of the regions on Monday in effect ends the Minsk peace agreements, which were never fully implemented in any case. The agreements, which were signed in 2014 and 2015, had called for a large amount of autonomy for the two regions within Ukraine."
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2022, 09:52:55 AM
Tom: The liberal media LIES
Also Tom: Here is a quote from the Guardian.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 14, 2022, 03:29:46 PM
This page clearly describes that there has been conflict and fighting in those areas since 2014 between Russian separatists and Ukraine:

Just to be crystal clear:

- Are you pro-Russian invasion and annexation of Ukraine? If so, why?
- Or are you pro-Russian invasion and annexation of just the Donbas?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2022, 04:30:02 PM
I am siding with Russia on this one. The narrative you guys are promoting is that Russia is attempting to ruthlessly invade innocent areas and expand across Europe or that they are trying to kill as many civilians as they can, which is clearly not the case.

Russia has annexed Russian separatist regions which have been in a war against Ukraine since 2014, where over 14,000 people have been killed according to the above link. The areas are predominantly composed of ethnic Russians. They called on Russia for help, claiming persecution. Russia came to the aid of its people. I can't fault them for that.

This was clearly outlined by the link given in the very first post of this thread, and even in the title of this thread, yet I notice that you guys never bring it up, preferring to pretend that Russia invaded Ukraine out of the blue. From this I see that the lies are squarely on your side of this.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2022, 04:41:02 PM
I am siding with Russia on this one. The narrative you guys are promoting is that Russia is attempting to ruthlessly invade innocent areas and expand across Europe or that they are trying to kill as many civilians as they can, which is clearly not the case.

Russia has annexed Russian separatist regions which have been in a war against Ukraine since 2014. The areas are predominantly composed of ethnic Russians. They called on Russia for help, claiming persecution. Russia came to the aid of its people. I can't fault them for that.

This was clearly outlined by the link given in the very first post of this thread, and even in the title of this thread, yet I notice that you guys never bring it up, preferring to pretend that Russia invaded Ukraine out of the blue. From this I see that the lies are squarely on your side of this.

Russia changed their tack when it became clear that Kiev wasn’t going to fall. Your revisionist history is a nice piece of shilling for Russia. Your bootlicking rationale also doesn’t explain why they had Belarus invade.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 14, 2022, 04:57:31 PM
I am siding with Russia on this one.

Interesting.

This was clearly outlined by the link given in the very first post of this thread, and even in the title of this thread, yet I notice that you guys never bring it up, preferring to pretend that Russia invaded Ukraine out of the blue. From this I see that the lies are squarely on your side of this.

From the OP article, yes, clearly outlined:

"Putin has instructed the Defense Ministry to send peacekeepers into the Donbass, while telling the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to establish diplomatic relations with the states."

Seems like "peacekeepers" weren't just sent to the Donbass region...

(https://i.imgur.com/o9AwV99.jpg)(https://static.dw.com/image/61006025_7.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 14, 2022, 10:33:49 PM
"Now home to a majority of Russian-speaking people, they moved there only in recent decades. Now, Russia has given more than 720,000 Russian passports to roughly one-fifth of the region’s population, according to The Associated Press."
So you're saying that a bunch of Russians move into Ukrainian territory and now want that Ukrainian territory to become part of Russia?  Still sounds like an invasion to me.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 15, 2022, 08:52:47 AM
"Now home to a majority of Russian-speaking people, they moved there only in recent decades. Now, Russia has given more than 720,000 Russian passports to roughly one-fifth of the region’s population, according to The Associated Press."
So you're saying that a bunch of Russians move into Ukrainian territory and now want that Ukrainian territory to become part of Russia?  Still sounds like an invasion to me.
And why would they want to be part of Russia again?  You don't leave your country if its great.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 15, 2022, 10:05:49 AM
It would seem that Tom distrust more than just liberal media. After all, Russia already told us exactly what the reasons behind their invasion are, through media they directly control, and yet he disagrees.

https://www.newsweek.com/state-run-russian-news-site-accidentally-declares-ukraines-defeat-1683455

Don't forget: the current Russian state is far more incompetent than even the most brazen caricatures of the Soviet Union. If your cool troll argument relies on them not fucking up catastrophically, it's doomed to fail.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Action80 on October 15, 2022, 01:56:56 PM
ITT: FETS admins and mods: "THREE CHEERS FOR THE NAZI'S!!! HIP HIP!!! HOORAY!!! HIP HIP HOORAY!!! HIP HIP!!! HOORAY!!!"
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 15, 2022, 07:26:15 PM
A80, out of curiosity: do you know what a Nazi is? You act as if it was an acronym.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Action80 on October 15, 2022, 09:45:10 PM
A80, out of curiosity: do you know what a Nazi is? You act as if it was an acronym.
Yes, I know what a Nazi is.

And it happens to be an acronym.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 15, 2022, 09:48:36 PM
And it happens to be an acronym.
Sigh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Etymology
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Action80 on October 15, 2022, 09:57:49 PM
And it happens to be an acronym.
Sigh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Etymology
What happened to your reading skills? "Nazi, the informal and originally derogatory term for a party member, abbreviates the party's name." Last I checked, an acronym is synonymous with the word abbreviation.

How can you be trusted to comment on anything of value when you have no grasp of these simple things?

F f t c t g t f o o e. I a n g f i.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 15, 2022, 10:16:28 PM
Last I checked, an acronym is synonymous with the word abbreviation.

Perhaps you should check again:
Quote from: https://abbreviations.yourdictionary.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-an-abbreviation-and-an-acroynm.html
An abbreviation is a shortened version of a longer word (such as Dr. or Prof.), while an acronym forms a new word using the first letter of each word from a phrase (such as radar or ASAP). Writers often use the words abbreviations and acronyms interchangeably, yet the two are quite distinct.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 16, 2022, 12:27:58 AM
And it happens to be an acronym.
Sigh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Etymology

That’s cool. I was totally in the camp of people who thought Nazi was an abbreviation for National Socialist. Never bothered to check if that was true because it didn’t really concern me deeply.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on October 16, 2022, 01:19:42 AM
I need to get me some tats. Tats are cool? Nazi bitchez. With a Z?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 16, 2022, 03:07:04 AM
I need to get me some tats. Tats are cool? Nazi bitchez. With a Z?

Pics or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 16, 2022, 03:12:49 AM
I need to get me some tats. Tats are cool? Nazi bitchez. With a Z?

I strongly encourage you to do so.  Preferably on your forehead to make it easier to identify people like you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YissPv9Ycjs
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Action80 on October 16, 2022, 06:04:26 AM
Last I checked, an acronym is synonymous with the word abbreviation.

Perhaps you should check again:
Quote from: https://abbreviations.yourdictionary.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-an-abbreviation-and-an-acroynm.html
An abbreviation is a shortened version of a longer word (such as Dr. or Prof.), while an acronym forms a new word using the first letter of each word from a phrase (such as radar or ASAP). Writers often use the words abbreviations and acronyms interchangeably, yet the two are quite distinct.
I did check again. Why they let you anywhere near this forum is now obvious.

ac·ro·nym
/ˈakrəˌnim/
Learn to pronounce
noun
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g. ASCII, NASA ).
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 16, 2022, 08:52:17 AM
Last I checked, an acronym is synonymous with the word abbreviation.

Perhaps you should check again:
Quote from: https://abbreviations.yourdictionary.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-an-abbreviation-and-an-acroynm.html
An abbreviation is a shortened version of a longer word (such as Dr. or Prof.), while an acronym forms a new word using the first letter of each word from a phrase (such as radar or ASAP). Writers often use the words abbreviations and acronyms interchangeably, yet the two are quite distinct.
I did check again. Why they let you anywhere near this forum is now obvious.

ac·ro·nym
/ˈakrəˌnim/
Learn to pronounce
noun
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g. ASCII, NASA ).

And its funny how you still show you can't read.

Do you know what synonymous is?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Action80 on October 16, 2022, 10:43:18 AM
Last I checked, an acronym is synonymous with the word abbreviation.

Perhaps you should check again:
Quote from: https://abbreviations.yourdictionary.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-an-abbreviation-and-an-acroynm.html
An abbreviation is a shortened version of a longer word (such as Dr. or Prof.), while an acronym forms a new word using the first letter of each word from a phrase (such as radar or ASAP). Writers often use the words abbreviations and acronyms interchangeably, yet the two are quite distinct.
I did check again. Why they let you anywhere near this forum is now obvious.

ac·ro·nym
/ˈakrəˌnim/
Learn to pronounce
noun
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g. ASCII, NASA ).

And its funny how you still show you can't read.

Do you know what synonymous is?
^again, another only demonstrating the purpose of the site.

F f t g t s o o e e h. I a n g f i.

L d i a r, r o t m i.

Yes, synonymous means sharing characteristics. Could be exactly the same or nearly the same.

N, g f w s e, y N l.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2022, 11:30:11 AM
I am siding with Russia on this one.

Interesting.

This was clearly outlined by the link given in the very first post of this thread, and even in the title of this thread, yet I notice that you guys never bring it up, preferring to pretend that Russia invaded Ukraine out of the blue. From this I see that the lies are squarely on your side of this.

From the OP article, yes, clearly outlined:

"Putin has instructed the Defense Ministry to send peacekeepers into the Donbass, while telling the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to establish diplomatic relations with the states."

Seems like "peacekeepers" weren't just sent to the Donbass region...

(https://i.imgur.com/o9AwV99.jpg)(https://static.dw.com/image/61006025_7.png)


Actually Russia explained in March why the the attack went beyond Donbass. There was military infrastructure along the Ukraine borders with Russia. They were taking out the Ukrainian air defenses and weapons depots. It is remarked here that Russia intended Ukraine to be a neutral country, not that Russia intended to annex those non-Donbass areas or that they wanted to annex whole of Ukraine. This is a fantasy fiction that you have made up entirely. It is also reiterated here that they had stepped in to defend the breakaway regions:

https://www.rt.com/russia/551314-putin-explains-ukraine-tactic/

Putin explains why Ukraine attack went beyond Donbass

5 Mar, 2022

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Saturday that he chose to attack Ukraine beyond the borders of the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics (DPR and LPR) to prevent the West from “endlessly” supplying “nationalists and radicals” with various resources, such as weapons and money. He added that the Russian forces were “practically done” destroying Ukrainian military sites, such as air defenses and weapons depots.

The president stated that he had ordered Russian troops to invade Ukraine last week in order to neutralize the “real threat” coming from Kiev and NATO. Moscow has long protested the Western military infrastructure along its borders and Ukraine’s aspirations to join the US-led bloc.

“They began to say more actively that they will admit [Ukraine] to NATO. What will this lead to? All other members of the alliance must back Ukraine in the case of a military conflict,” Putin said. “They will [attack] Crimea, and we will be forced to go to war with NATO. Do you understand the consequences?” The president stated that he wanted Ukraine to become a neutral country.

Crimea voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia shortly after the 2014 coup in Kiev. It was during that time that the DPR and LPR broke away from Ukraine.

“Let’s acquire nuclear weapons, they say [in Ukraine]. We can’t simply ignore it,” Putin said, referring to President Volodymyr Zelensky’s remark last month that Kiev might be forced to reconsider its status as a non-nuclear-weapons state.

Russia invaded its neighbor on February 24, arguing that it was defending the DPR and LPR. Putin also claimed he was seeking the “demilitarization and denazification” of the country.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 16, 2022, 11:44:06 AM
Last I checked, an acronym is synonymous with the word abbreviation.

Perhaps you should check again:
Quote from: https://abbreviations.yourdictionary.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-an-abbreviation-and-an-acroynm.html
An abbreviation is a shortened version of a longer word (such as Dr. or Prof.), while an acronym forms a new word using the first letter of each word from a phrase (such as radar or ASAP). Writers often use the words abbreviations and acronyms interchangeably, yet the two are quite distinct.
I did check again. Why they let you anywhere near this forum is now obvious.

ac·ro·nym
/ˈakrəˌnim/
Learn to pronounce
noun
an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word (e.g. ASCII, NASA ).

And its funny how you still show you can't read.

Do you know what synonymous is?
^again, another only demonstrating the purpose of the site.

F f t g t s o o e e h. I a n g f i.

L d i a r, r o t m i.

Yes, synonymous means sharing characteristics. Could be exactly the same or nearly the same.

N, g f w s e, y N l.
And in language, means one can be used in place of the other.  Same or nearly the same definition.

But an Acronym describes a type of Abbreviation (using only the first word), not an abbreviation as a whole.

So if I were to say "Dr. Is an acronym for Doctor" I would be wrong.  Thus they are not synonymous.

Please return to 2nd grade for re-education.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Action80 on October 16, 2022, 01:35:05 PM
And in language, means one can be used in place of the other.  Same or nearly the same definition.

But an Acronym describes a type of Abbreviation (using only the first word), not an abbreviation as a whole.

So if I were to say "Dr. Is an acronym for Doctor" I would be wrong.  Thus they are not synonymous.

Please return to 2nd grade for re-education.
I a t d m i o t f f.
FTFY. Nnttm.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 16, 2022, 01:40:15 PM
And in language, means one can be used in place of the other.  Same or nearly the same definition.

But an Acronym describes a type of Abbreviation (using only the first word), not an abbreviation as a whole.

So if I were to say "Dr. Is an acronym for Doctor" I would be wrong.  Thus they are not synonymous.

Please return to 2nd grade for re-education.
I a t d m i o t f f.
FTFY. Nnttm.

You know what?  You should keep it up.  Just make entire posts into acronyms.  Save the space in the DB and from anyone understanding your ramblings.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 16, 2022, 02:31:41 PM
As much as A80 angrily demonstrating that he doesn't know what words mean is hilarious, it's a little off-topic here. Let's put a pin in it and resume in AR if people want a laugh.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2022, 08:00:43 PM
"Now home to a majority of Russian-speaking people, they moved there only in recent decades. Now, Russia has given more than 720,000 Russian passports to roughly one-fifth of the region’s population, according to The Associated Press."
So you're saying that a bunch of Russians move into Ukrainian territory and now want that Ukrainian territory to become part of Russia?  Still sounds like an invasion to me.

It is certainly possible that it was the ethnic Russians who settled in Ukraine that started it. However, regardless of who started what, it can't be denied that there was a prolonged war and humanitarian crisis in eastern Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion, giving justification for Russia's intervention. Even the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs concedes that there was a humanitarian crisis in Ukraine. Here is a report from Feb 10, 2022, 14 days before Russia entered Ukraine:

https://www.acaps.org/sites/acaps/files/key-documents/files/ukraine_2022_hrp_eng_2022-02-10.pdf

HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE PLAN UKRAINE

Feb 2022

"Almost eight years of active fighting have had profound consequences on the lives of millions of people in the conflict-affected Donetska and Luhanska oblasts of eastern Ukraine. An estimated 2.9 million people are projected to need humanitarian assistance in 2022, with some 55 per cent living in the non-Government controlled area (NGCA)."
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 16, 2022, 08:02:24 PM
it can't be denied that there was a prolonged war and humanitarian crisis in eastern Ukraine
Can it not? Considering how you normally approach these things nowadays, this position beggars belief. Of course it can be denied, and if it wasn't already the popular position, you'd be denying it to the ends of the world.

Try it. I'm sure you can do it. Show us your best attempt.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: garygreen on October 16, 2022, 08:11:35 PM
i'm actually curious to know how cruise missiles help in a humanitarian crisis. was the crisis a lack of explosions?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 16, 2022, 08:35:20 PM
i'm actually curious to know how cruise missiles help in a humanitarian crisis. was the crisis a lack of explosions?

Because the Ukrainian military was fighting against Russian separatists in the Donbass regions. Russia intervened and helped the separatists by attempting to cripple Ukraine and by annexing the separatist regions in question. There was a multi-year pre-existing conflict there between Ukraine's military and ethnic Russians in Donbass.

Regardless of who was at fault, the situation from Russia's view was that Ukraine's military was actively involved in killing ethnic Russians in Donbass in a war. This is why Russia was upset about it and intervened.

https://www.rt.com/russia/551534-russia-ukraine-dpr-refugees/

(https://i.imgur.com/9mJsMIw.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 16, 2022, 08:47:01 PM
I bet all those now-dead ethnic Russians are really grateful for being saved from the genocide in which no people were dying (short of definitely-not-Kremlin-sponsored partisans who just happened to wear Russian surplus uniforms while inciting violence).

Now that they're dead, they can finally be happy. All thanks to дядя Володя! Great success!
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 17, 2022, 03:25:23 PM
We're relying on www.rt.com now?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 17, 2022, 04:02:22 PM
I understand your point...  But good content is good content.


Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2022, 04:14:20 PM
Yes, you were asking why Russia invaded non-Donbass areas and I provided a link from a Russian state-controlled media outlet.

The outlet also contains many important links on the Russian motivation for the war, such as their concern about the Donbass situation. If you want to know what Russia's motivation was and whether they had reasoning and justification, you should go there and read what they have to say. Attempting to portray the situation as Russia invading a country out of the blue is dishonest.

Previously you were arguing from your own personal ignorance, assuming that Russia was attempting to annex non-Donbass regions. You now know better. Putin said that he wanted Ukraine to become a neutral country, not that he intended to annex any part other than the annexation necessary to defend the breakaway regions that have been in a civil war with the Ukrainian military since 2014.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 17, 2022, 04:16:58 PM
If you want to know what Russia's motivation was and whether they had reasoning and justification, you should go [to Russian state-controlled media outlets] and read what they have to say.
I agree, and Russian state-controlled media have made their position very clear (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19164.msg272856#msg272856) merely days into their failed conquest. Here's an archive link (https://web.archive.org/web/20220226224717/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html) for anyone interested - it's mostly readable and accurate when auto-translated.

There can be no doubt here - they told us exactly what they were after. Of course, once they realised their enormous cock-up they tried to sweep it under the rug and rewrite the narrative, but we're not silly enough to ignore their own testimony, are we, Tom?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 17, 2022, 04:26:51 PM
Yes, you were asking why Russia invaded non-Donbass areas and I provided a link from a Russian state-controlled media outlet.

The outlet also contains many important links on the Russian motivation for the war, such as their concern about the Donbass situation. If you want to know what Russia's motivation was and whether they had reasoning and justification, you should go there and read what they have to say. Attempting to portray the situation as Russia invading a country out of the blue is dishonest.

I don't think I would rely on RT to provide objective "reasoning" and reasonable "justification" for anything.

Previously you were arguing from your own personal ignorance, assuming that Russia was attempting to annex non-Donbass regions. You now know better. Putin said that he wanted Ukraine to become a neutral country, not that he intended to annex any part other than the annexation necessary to defend the breakaway regions that have been in a civil war with the Ukrainian military since 2014.

Correct, initially...

Launching the invasion on 24 February he told the Russian people his goal was to "demilitarise and de-Nazify Ukraine". His declared aim was to protect people subjected to what he called eight years of bullying and genocide by Ukraine's government. Another objective was soon added: ensuring Ukraine's neutral status.

How does one demilitarise/de-nazify and ensure an entire country's "neutral status"? That's a smidge different than, "I just want the Donbass..."

How does just annexing the Donbass accomplish those tasks? Or are you saying that now Putin just wants the Donbass and "forget about that other stuff I wanted"?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 17, 2022, 04:44:45 PM
Stack, I think the point is Russia wants Ukraine to stop acting hostile towards it.  I don't think its more complicated then that.  If this can happen, talks about improving relations can maybe start.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on October 17, 2022, 05:05:22 PM
Stack, I think the point is Russia wants Ukraine to stop acting hostile towards it.  I don't think its more complicated then that.  If this can happen, talks about improving relations can maybe start.

I don't know if you're aware of this but Russia invaded Ukraine.  Not the other way around.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 17, 2022, 05:06:27 PM
If you want to know what Russia's motivation was and whether they had reasoning and justification, you should go [to Russian state-controlled media outlets] and read what they have to say.
I agree, and Russian state-controlled media have made their position very clear (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19164.msg272856#msg272856) merely days into their failed conquest. Here's an archive link (https://web.archive.org/web/20220226224717/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html) for anyone interested - it's mostly readable and accurate when auto-translated.

There can be no doubt here - they told us exactly what they were after. Of course, once they realised their enormous cock-up they tried to sweep it under the rug and rewrite the narrative, but we're not silly enough to ignore their own testimony, are we, Tom?

This argument is pretty weak since we don't know if this is that the state thought or whether it is what that editor thought. It was accidentally published and can hardly be said to be a point of authority for what Russia was "really after." Since it was an accident, it is unknown whether this article went through the proper approval and signoff by Russian authorities, making this out to be a fairly weak rebuttal to the direct public statements that they wanted Ukraine to be neutral.

And the article you linked does not say that they were annexing Ukraine into Russia. It said that they were going to take out the anti-Russian militants and the country would be reorganized into something new. It leaves some question on what Ukraine would become:

---
Now this problem is gone - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state of part of the Russian world. In what borders, in what form will the alliance with Russia be fixed (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus )? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage - the West sees the return of Russia to its historical borders in Europe . And he is loudly indignant at this, although in the depths of his soul he must admit to himself that it could not be otherwise.
---

They suggested that Ukraine would become part of the "Russian world" like Belarus. Belarus is not part of Russia. It is a separate country with shared cultural values and traditions and its own policies.

Correct, initially...

Launching the invasion on 24 February he told the Russian people his goal was to "demilitarise and de-Nazify Ukraine". His declared aim was to protect people subjected to what he called eight years of bullying and genocide by Ukraine's government. Another objective was soon added: ensuring Ukraine's neutral status.

How does one demilitarise/de-nazify and ensure an entire country's "neutral status"? That's a smidge different than, "I just want the Donbass..."

How does just annexing the Donbass accomplish those tasks? Or are you saying that now Putin just wants the Donbass and "forget about that other stuff I wanted"?

Putin clearly said that his intention was to protect and defend the breakaway regions. Protecting the breakaway regions involves taking out Ukraine's military that was attacking it.

Ukraine would become neutral by agreeing to a peace agreement in which it agreed to become neutral. In another scenario Russia could destroy the Ukrainian Government and reform it into what it wanted it to be.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 17, 2022, 05:33:04 PM
This argument is pretty weak since we don't know if this is that the state thought or whether it is what that editor thought.
Then the same is true about every article you've quoted RT on. I trust you'll stop using them as a source, since you now believe it's a weak form of argumentation.

Since it was an accident, it is unknown whether this article went through the proper approval and signoff by Russian authorities
We're making so much progress today! You now agree that Russia is unbelievably incompetent, to the point of putting together an entire production-ready article without it going through the propaganda ministry, and then publishing it. The fact that it's even vaguely possible that this idiot could have written a piece like that without a diktat from above is an extreme dunk on Russian state media.

They suggested that Ukraine would become part of the "Russian world" like Belarus. Belarus is not part of Russia. It is a separate country with shared cultural values and traditions and its own policies.
Yes, that's been the USSR model since its conception. A combination of "republics" within the Union, and "independent" satellite states outside of it - there are subtle differences between how each of these creations was exploited by their empire, but it's not that grand a distinction. They suggested that, like Belarus, Ukraine would become one of the two. Of course, that won't be happening, but it's hilarious to see just how much they've exceeded the mocking expectations we've been setting up for them.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on October 17, 2022, 06:04:43 PM
Man, Russia must be so afraid of NATO.  Yet why Ukraine and not say... The several other NATO nations that border russia?

And why mass troops and invade to stop potential threats of having military bases nearby?
Wouldn't it be better to just put military bases near the border of your own country to counter?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 18, 2022, 09:39:05 AM
This argument is pretty weak since we don't know if this is that the state thought or whether it is what that editor thought.
Then the same is true about every article you've quoted RT on. I trust you'll stop using them as a source, since you now believe it's a weak form of argumentation.

Well there is a difference. The articles I posted were not retracted. Yours was, and for some reason you think that a retracted article is the same as an article that was not retracted.

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
We're making so much progress today! You now agree that Russia is unbelievably incompetent, to the point of putting together an entire production-ready article without it going through the propaganda ministry, and then publishing it. The fact that it's even vaguely possible that this idiot could have written a piece like that without a diktat from above is an extreme dunk on Russian state media.

It's not clear that you even posted what you claim is a mistake. You claim that the author posted that the war was won and that Russia defeated Ukraine, but the article clearly says that the armies are still shooting at each other:

---
"Yes, at a great cost, yes, through the tragic events of a virtual civil war, because now brothers, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies, are still shooting at each other, but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness, gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. "
---

The author goes on to say what Russia is doing, will do, and that Ukraine will be reorganized, etc, but this does not mean that the author thinks the war was over. Since he says that the armies are still shooting at each other it is not obvious that this article was meant to be posted in the future after the war and was mistakenly posted.

It might have been retracted for a different reason; because the Russian government took notice of the article and did not want to speculate in that manner about what Ukraine would become. This would be an opposite reason than what you had suggested - you had suggested that this was Russia's "real" plan in this article. As if we are supposed to believe that the Russian government gives its real plans to a news website editor and tells him to promise not to say anything. This was a rather ridiculous narrative from you.

In reality Russia likely has many plans which are highly dependent on the situation and how things play out.

The author thinks that Ukraine would become a country like Belarus, which is not unreasonable. Belarus was a buffer between the Eastern and Western powers and had declared itself as neutral in its constitution for many years, until very recently when they decided to become stronger allies with Russia.

Quote
They suggested that Ukraine would become part of the "Russian world" like Belarus. Belarus is not part of Russia. It is a separate country with shared cultural values and traditions and its own policies.
Yes, that's been the USSR model since its conception. A combination of "republics" within the Union, and "independent" satellite states outside of it - there are subtle differences between how each of these creations was exploited by their empire, but it's not that grand a distinction. They suggested that, like Belarus, Ukraine would become one of the two. Of course, that won't be happening, but it's hilarious to see just how much they've exceeded the mocking expectations we've been setting up for them.

The relationship between Russia and Belarus is nothing like the USSR. Belarus today is an independent sovereign country. Belarus in the USSR was not sovereign or independent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union

"The dissolution of the Soviet Union[e] was the process of internal disintegration within the Soviet Union (USSR) which resulted in the end of the country's and its federal government's existence as a sovereign state, thereby resulting in its constituent republics gaining full sovereignty on 26 December 1991."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus

"The parliament of the republic proclaimed the sovereignty of Belarus on 27 July 1990, and during the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Belarus declared independence on 25 August 1991."


The relationship between Belarus and Russia is the same as the Canada and the US, independent countries with loosely shared culture and a general shared ideals and goals. They are generally allies in many matters, but have their own disagreements:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-belarus-airbase/russia-complains-over-belaruss-refusal-to-host-air-base-idUSKBN1WB1NT

"MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia said on Thursday that Belarus’s refusal to host a military air base backed by President Vladimir Putin had been an “unpleasant episode”, a rare public display of disagreement between the close allies."


The author in your article suggested that Ukraine would become another Belarus, which is what would be expected if the anti-Russian militants in Ukraine were eliminated and there was no more rivalry between the countries. The author suggested that Ukraine would possibly join Belarus in the Eurasian Union, the CTSO, or possibly join the Union State of Russia and Belarus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

The first one is an economic union, the second one is a defense pact, and the third one is an economic and defense pact; not unlike the pacts between US, Canada, and Europe.

This author predicted something stunningly obvious: That two neighboring countries absent of rivalries would form an economic pact or possibly a defense pact of some sort.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 18, 2022, 11:17:38 AM
Yours was, and for some reason you think that a retracted article is the same as an article that was not retracted.
Oh, no, not the same. It's much better than your carefully-reviewed propaganda articles from untrustworthy sources. When the orcs say something by accident and then try to sweep it under the rug, you know it's the good stuff.

I'll give you one thing, though - you were at least clever enough to try and invent possible reasons for them to sweep it under the rug. The real post-parody-USSR couldn't even muster that. You've got a difficult job pretending to support them when they can't even support themselves.

In reality Russia likely has many plans which are highly dependent on the situation and how things play out.
I'm glad you concede this point. We can now consider your own speculation on their reasoning to be null and void. We also agree that your interpretation of Russia's meek ambitions (much meeker than originally laid out!) are simply a result of "how things played out" (very badly).

The relationship between Russia and Belarus is nothing like the USSR. Belarus today is an independent sovereign country. Belarus in the USSR was not sovereign or independent.
Indeed - Belarus was promoted from an SSR to a satellite state, as Lukashenko pointed out many times before. The relationship between the two is very interesting, and you'd do well to learn about it - it'll help you with your acting. Let's start you off with something light-hearted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JNtiO7nhmo

Of course, I named both options already, so you're just going "uhm ackshually" at something you didn't fully understand.

This author predicted something stunningly obvious
He did. It's just not what you're pretending it is. :)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 18, 2022, 09:36:36 PM
Actually, Russia and Belarus got together and formed the Union State of Russia and Belarus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 19, 2022, 01:14:34 PM
So you guys have been going on and on with implications that the Russian invasion was unprovoked, claiming that they want to "expand across Europe", with wild analogies that the situation is like someone taking over your house, and "why cruise missiles??", disregarding their justification of defending the breakaway regions. Yet there is evidence that ethnic Russians are claiming that Ukraine has been harassing and killing them for years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3UvNr2Gs3k&t=2s&ab_channel=GodKnowsTheTruth

Quote from: markjo
Actually, Russia and Belarus got together and formed the Union State of Russia and Belarus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

And if you click on that link and read it you will find that, unlike their relationship in the USSR, Russia and Belarus are still independent states:

"Originally, the Union State aimed to create a confederation, however, both countries currently retain their independence.[6] The Union State is based on a previous international treaty between Russia and Belarus[7] made on 2 April 1997.[8] Although it consists of only Russia and Belarus, other countries are allowed to join."

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
I'm glad you concede this point. We can now consider your own speculation on their reasoning to be null and void. We also agree that your interpretation of Russia's meek ambitions (much meeker than originally laid out!) are simply a result of "how things played out" (very badly).

I don't see that Russia has failed in any of its stated goals. They never claimed that they wanted to annex all of Ukraine. They stated that they wanted to defend the breakaway regions and demilitarize Ukraine. They are succeeding at both, as evidenced by annexation of the Donbass regions and the billions in international aid and weaponry necessary to keep Ukraine afloat.

This does not look like winning to me, tbh:

(https://i.imgur.com/5k6yrCi.png)
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lexi on October 19, 2022, 06:23:47 PM
Hey, Tom bishop.
Lets bomb cities and schools in the US to protect us. It's because we need to protect ourselves and bomb innocent children for fun.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 19, 2022, 10:55:51 PM
Looks like the residents of the newly annexed regions are so excited about now being part of Russia that they had to declare martial law.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/19/putin-martial-law-annexed-ukraine-regions/
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 19, 2022, 11:28:17 PM
C'mon!  Tom's YouTube video from an Iranian news outlet with an interview with one woman and no sources for their claims is super-duper compelling.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Iceman on October 20, 2022, 12:35:11 AM
That meme sold me. Team Bear now! No one who has to ask for help can possibly win, nor could they be in the right.

Join me on the winning team, Comrades
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 21, 2022, 04:53:25 PM
C'mon!  Tom's YouTube video from an Iranian news outlet with an interview with one woman and no sources for their claims is super-duper compelling.

So what do you think is happening there exactly? They paid a woman to lie about her child and create a fake cemetery ceremony?

The interviews literally are the sources, and evidence that there has been an ongoing conflict and that ethnic Russians in Donbass have been claiming that Ukraine has been killing them for years.

Here is a video from 2015 from AFP News, of people in Donbass gathering to pay tribute to children killed in the clashes between Ukraine and the separatists - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9C1Bn5stCw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9C1Bn5stCw)

Here is a video from 2019 from CBC News "Inside one of Ukraine's separatist battlegrounds" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7XiGMBjuc8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7XiGMBjuc8)

Transcript:


It looks and sounds pretty bad. This is further evidence that there was already an ongoing conflict in Ukraine before the Russian invasion that prompted this. Russia did not invade Ukraine out of the blue as a naked act of aggression, like the cartoonish narrative parroted. People were already dying in an ongoing civil war between Ukraine and Russian separatists. Russia's military entered into the conflict directly to defend the breakaway regions.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 21, 2022, 06:08:46 PM
It sounds like you are back tracking on your claim that it’s all Ukraine’s fault the Donbas is a terrible place to be.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lexi on October 21, 2022, 06:25:03 PM
Hey, Tom bishop.
Lets bomb cities and schools in the US to protect us. It's because we need to protect ourselves and bomb innocent children for fun.

C'mon, Tom. Tell me what you think about Russia bombing innocent people.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 22, 2022, 12:11:04 AM
Amnesty International studied this and explained why civilians are being killed. Ukrainians are choosing to fight from residential areas even when other options are available to them and Russian soldiers were sent out with wide area weapons such as rockets which are not precise enough to avoid civilian casualties. This is a bit on the long side, but a full citation is required for the full scope -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

- Military bases set up in residential areas including schools and hospitals
- Attacks launched from populated civilian areas
- Such violations in no way justify Russia’s indiscriminate attacks, which have killed and injured countless civilians

' Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today.

Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians, as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure.

“We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.

“Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law.”

Not every Russian attack documented by Amnesty International followed this pattern, however. In certain other locations in which Amnesty International concluded that Russia had committed war crimes, including in some areas of the city of Kharkiv, the organization did not find evidence of Ukrainian forces located in the civilian areas unlawfully targeted by the Russian military.

Between April and July, Amnesty International researchers spent several weeks investigating Russian strikes in the Kharkiv, Donbas and Mykolaiv regions. The organization inspected strike sites; interviewed survivors, witnesses and relatives of victims of attacks; and carried out remote-sensing and weapons analysis.

Throughout these investigations, researchers found evidence of Ukrainian forces launching strikes from within populated residential areas as well as basing themselves in civilian buildings in 19 towns and villages in the regions. The organization’s Crisis Evidence Lab has analyzed satellite imagery to further corroborate some of these incidents.

Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas. In the cases it documented, Amnesty International is not aware that the Ukrainian military who located themselves in civilian structures in residential areas asked or assisted civilians to evacuate nearby buildings – a failure to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians.

Launching strikes from populated civilian areas

Survivors and witnesses of Russian strikes in the Donbas, Kharkiv and Mykolaiv regions told Amnesty International researchers that the Ukrainian military had been operating near their homes around the time of the strikes, exposing the areas to retaliatory fire from Russian forces. Amnesty International researchers witnessed such conduct in numerous locations.

International humanitarian law requires all parties to a conflict to avoid locating, to the maximum extent feasible, military objectives within or near densely populated areas. Other obligations to protect civilians from the effects of attacks include removing civilians from the vicinity of military objectives and giving effective warning of attacks that may affect the civilian population.

The mother of a 50-year-old man killed in a rocket attack on 10 June in a village south of Mykolaiv told Amnesty International: “The military were staying in a house next to our home and my son often took food to the soldiers. I begged him several times to stay away from there because I was afraid for his safety. That afternoon, when the strike happened, my son was in the courtyard of our home and I was in the house. He was killed on the spot. His body was ripped to shreds. Our home was partially destroyed.” Amnesty International researchers found military equipment and uniforms at the house next door.

Mykola, who lives in a tower block in a neighbourhood of Lysychansk (Donbas) that was repeatedly struck by Russian attacks which killed at least one older man, told Amnesty International: “I don’t understand why our military is firing from the cities and not from the field.” Another resident, a 50-year-old man, said: “There is definitely military activity in the neighbourhood. When there is outgoing fire, we hear incoming fire afterwards.” Amnesty International researchers witnessed soldiers using a residential building some 20 metres from the entrance of the underground shelter used by the residents where the older man was killed.

In one town in Donbas on 6 May, Russian forces used widely banned and inherently indiscriminate cluster munitions over a neighbourhood of mostly single or two-storey homes where Ukrainian forces were operating artillery. Shrapnel damaged the walls of the house where Anna, 70, lives with her son and 95-year-old mother.

Anna said: “Shrapnel flew through the doors. I was inside. The Ukrainian artillery was near my field… The soldiers were behind the field, behind the house… I saw them coming in and out… since the war started… My mother is… paralyzed, so I couldn’t flee.”

In early July, a farm worker was injured when Russian forces struck an agricultural warehouse in the Mykolaiv area. Hours after the strike, Amnesty International researchers witnessed the presence of Ukrainian military personnel and vehicles in the grain storage area, and witnesses confirmed that the military had been using the warehouse, located across the road from a farm where civilians are living and working.

While Amnesty International researchers were examining damage to residential and adjacent public buildings in Kharkiv and in villages in Donbas and east of Mykolaiv, they heard outgoing fire from Ukrainian military positions nearby.

In Bakhmut, several residents told Amnesty International that the Ukrainian military had been using a building barely 20 metres across the street from a residential high-rise building. On 18 May, a Russian missile struck the front of the building, partly destroying five apartments and damaging nearby buildings. Kateryna, a resident who survived the strike, said: “I didn’t understand what happened. [There were] broken windows and a lot of dust in my home… I stayed here because my mother didn’t want to leave. She has health problems.”

Three residents told Amnesty International that before the strike, Ukrainian forces had been using a building across the street from the bombed building, and that two military trucks were parked in front of another house that was damaged when the missile hit. Amnesty International researchers found signs of military presence in and outside the building, including sandbags and black plastic sheeting covering the windows, as well as new US-made trauma first aid equipment.

“We have no say in what the military does, but we pay the price,” a resident whose home was also damaged in the strike told Amnesty International.

Military bases in hospitals

Amnesty International researchers witnessed Ukrainian forces using hospitals as de facto military bases in five locations. In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals. In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.

A Russian air strike on 28 April injured two employees at a medical laboratory in a suburb of Kharkiv after Ukrainian forces had set up a base in the compound.

Using hospitals for military purposes is a clear violation of international humanitarian law.

Military bases in schools

The Ukrainian military has routinely set up bases in schools in towns and villages in Donbas and in the Mykolaiv area. Schools have been temporarily closed to students since the conflict  began, but in most cases the buildings were located close to populated civilian neighbourhoods

At 22 out of 29 schools visited, Amnesty International researchers either found soldiers using the premises or found evidence of current or prior military activity – including the presence of military fatigues, discarded munitions, army ration packets and military vehicles.

Russian forces struck many of the schools used by Ukrainian forces. In at least three towns, after Russian bombardment of the schools, Ukrainian soldiers moved to other schools nearby, putting the surrounding neighbourhoods at risk of similar attacks.

In a town east of Odesa, Amnesty International witnessed a broad pattern of Ukrainian soldiers using civilian areas for lodging and as staging areas, including basing armoured vehicles under trees in purely residential neighbourhoods, and using two schools located in densely populated residential areas. Russian strikes near the schools killed and injured several civilians between April and late June – including a child and an older woman killed in a rocket attack on their home on 28 June.

In Bakhmut, Ukrainian forces were using a university building as a base when a Russian strike hit on 21 May, reportedly killing seven soldiers. The university is adjacent to a high-rise residential building which was damaged in the strike, alongside other civilian homes roughly 50 metres away. Amnesty International researchers found the remains of a military vehicle in the courtyard of the bombed university building.

International humanitarian law does not specifically ban parties to a conflict from basing themselves in schools that are not in session. However, militaries have an obligation to avoid using schools that are near houses or apartment buildings full of civilians, putting these lives at risk, unless there is a compelling military need. If they do so, they should warn civilians and, if necessary, help them evacuate. This did not appear to have happened in the cases examined by Amnesty International.

Armed conflicts seriously hamper children’s right to education, and military use of schools can result in destruction that further deprives children of this right once the war ends. Ukraine is one of 114 countries that have endorsed the Safe Schools Declaration, an agreement to protect education amid armed conflict, which allows parties to make use of abandoned or evacuated schools only where there is no viable alternative.

Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces

Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.

The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks. All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.

“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.

Amnesty International contacted the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence with the findings of the research on 29 July 2022. At the time of publication, they had not yet responded. '
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 22, 2022, 12:42:16 AM
Thank you.  Intel like this certainly clears a lot up.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 22, 2022, 01:52:29 AM
“Such violations in no way justify Russia’s indiscriminate attacks, which have killed and injured countless civilians”
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 22, 2022, 02:15:07 PM
For anyone silly enough to have read Tom’s essay and thought he had a good point, even though Ukraine is using dangerous tactics, that still doesn’t give Russia license to invade it. Let’s remember these tactics are in response to a larger power invading their sovereign borders.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 22, 2022, 02:27:45 PM
I mean, Russian soldiers have a very credible alternative to killing civilians: they could go back to their own country, and reunite with their families.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 22, 2022, 02:45:53 PM
I mean, Russian soldiers have a very credible alternative to killing civilians: they could go back to their own country, and reunite with their families.

Great idea. We can have an investigation in to potential war crimes on both sides afterwards! Let’s wrap it up with a neat bow and see that those who deserve justice get it.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 22, 2022, 08:05:09 PM
I mean, Russian soldiers have a very credible alternative to killing civilians: they could go back to their own country, and reunite with their families.
If only Putin could have them do that and still save face.

*edit*
I think that I may have found a minor flaw in Putin's "denazification of Ukraine" narrative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/if-russia-serious-about-de-nazification-it-should-start-home/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SqSkP2scQU
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on October 26, 2022, 10:14:16 PM
Since Russia's denazification program is going so well, now is the time to desatanize Ukraine just for good measure.
https://censor.net/en/news/3376209/russian_security_council_declares_a_necessity_of_ukraines_desatanization
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 28, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
This does not look like being on the right side of history to me: The western powers are trying to maintain their narrative by prosecuting dissenters. An independent German journalist has been interviewing people in the Donbass area who supported the referendums to join Russia and published their complaints, relaying interviews and statements that Ukraine has been harassing and attacking them for the last 8 years, and that Ukraine has been engaged in a genocide against them.

This journalist is now being persecuted by her government -

https://twitter.com/hobeets/status/1538483854842990593

https://newkontinent.org/germany-labels-journalist-criminal-and-seizes-her-bank-accounts-for-reporting-from-ukraine/

Germany Labels Journalist ‘Criminal’ And Seizes Her Bank Accounts For Reporting From Ukraine


Earlier this month a there was a demonstration in Berlin in support of Lipp:

https://globaleuronews.com/2022/10/04/free-journalism-is-not-a-crime-demonstration-in-berlin-against-persecution-of-alina-lipp/

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 28, 2022, 05:46:37 PM
MarkJo you have a good point about the "denazification" program by Russia and using "Nazi's" to do it...   I hate that word, lets just use "nationialists"...

Ukrainian nationalists who love there country are fighting hard to defend it...  Russian "nationialists" are fighting in Ukraine to protect Russian interests and Russian speaking citizens there.

I'm not sure what else can be said until a deal between the two countries is made.

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 28, 2022, 06:03:04 PM
Nothing needs to be said. The orcs need to stop invading sovereign countries. Then we can talk about how to best resolve the war crimes they've committed.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tron on October 28, 2022, 06:21:40 PM
Pete I hear you - Some of my response to Tom's post below addresses your point.

The problem with the German Journalist's video's as outlined in the German legal notice, is that she seems to have broken away from "Journalistic" neutrality and has started to pick sides.

Now, I suppose under free speech a person is allowed to go into another war-torn country and report on what they see is happening there. 

Is she allowed to hold an opinion after spending six month's in Donbas?  I suppose.

But I think shen she speaks of Genocide, she needs to remember that the current Ukrainian government is fighting for terrority lost from sepratists and russians following the Maiden Revolution...  The current Ukrainian government might actually be fighting for people in Eastern Ukraine who don't want to leave Ukraine and declare themselves another state.  Not to mention violations to international law and of sovereign boundaries!  But if humanitarian issues are occuring underneath this all then that must be considered.

Lastly, I presume she understands the western narrative?  If she does, then I see no way to prosecute her.  She looked at both sides and reported.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 28, 2022, 07:09:56 PM
We have seen no details of Alina Lipp's lawsuit. All we have is her own allegations that she's been sued, and a good number of personal blogs that echo it without evidence. This is four months after it allegedly happened - doesn't it strike you as strange that there is no reliable reporting on the matter?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 28, 2022, 07:31:46 PM
It's not just an allegation. The documents and details of the court action are available and are looked at here at 1:17. It contains contact information of the chief prosecutor, details of the offenses, etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGsDnliynJg&t=77s
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 28, 2022, 08:42:44 PM
It's great that there is a YouTube video of someone looking at a printed piece of paper, I'm sure; but, much like with the rest of your tendency of favouring random people talking shit on the Internet when it suits you, it just doesn't even begin a meritorious conversation on the subject.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on October 28, 2022, 09:27:38 PM
Tom, why don’t you find the actual criminal complaint from their courts website?
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 29, 2022, 12:38:43 AM
It's not fake. There is already evidence here that it's real; her claim of being persecuted and the government documents. You denialists could have also just done some basic research to see that some media outlets are covering it, and that major outlets have reached out to the German prosecutor's office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Online

"t-online.de is a German news portal, owned and published by digital multi-channel media company Ströer. It reaches over 179 million visits per month[1] coming from 29 million unique visitors.[2]"

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_92326694/putins-deutsches-sprachrohr-alina-lipp-behoerden-ermitteln-wegen-kriegspropaganda-.html

"According to information from t-online , there have been several criminal charges against Alina Lipp since February. The Lüneburg public prosecutor's office then took up the investigation , as a spokeswoman for t-online confirmed. A few days ago, the public prosecutor's office in Göttingen took over the case - the central office for hate crime on the Internet is located there. The investigation has not yet been completed.

According to the public prosecutor's office, Alina Lipp constantly shows her solidarity with Russia's war against Ukraine . It is about a large number of contributions that she regularly posts on social networks. The investigators apparently name two as examples: On February 24, she happily wrote on Telegram: "The denazification has begun," and on March 12, she spoke in a video about the Russian troops liberating regions affected by "genocide."

The public prosecutor's office apparently considers the statements suitable to heat up the climate in Germany and to dissolve social cohesion due to at least distorted, partly untruthful representations. Aline Lipp has 150,000 subscribers to the Telegram messenger service, and her posts are also shared in "lateral thinker" circles. In her opinion pieces and her impressions of the life of the people in Donbass, she also mixed foreign articles with untruths, some of which she deleted again after they were discovered. For example, she spread the fictitious story that a young Russian man had been killed by Ukrainian refugees.

Lipp had already indicated a few days ago that there could be investigations against her. She had reported outraged that the German authorities had simply debited money from her without informing her. The public prosecutor's office had told t-online that Lipp had of course been informed - via her registration address in Lüneburg.

The DKV-Bank booked just over 1,600 euros from its German account to another account, where it is kept. The public prosecutor confirms that there was a corresponding order. The money was therefore confiscated to secure it for possible later confiscation. Money can be confiscated if obtained through a criminal offense."

Here is another article:

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/parteien/id_100035872/putins-deutsche-kriegerin-alina-lipp-erhaelt-unterstuetzung-von-afd-verein.html

'The public prosecutor's office in Goettingen told t-online that Lipp had "continuously expressed her solidarity with Russia's war of aggression". Certain statements are no longer covered by the freedom of expression, but "suitable for inciting the psychological climate within the population of Germany and because of distorted, sometimes untruthful representations (...) to dissolve social cohesion."'
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 29, 2022, 08:32:35 AM
It's not fake.
Nobody says it is (but it's interesting you felt the need to highlight this). You just need to adequately document it.

Not that she's being investigated. Not that she's a known Russian shill who repeatedly lied about the situation in Ukraine (but thanks for highlighting that, always good to know how independent your "independent journalists" are). Not that a small sum of illegal earnings was seized. But, specifically, what she's being sued for (if she is), and how the lawsuit is going (it's supposedly been 4 months!), using primary sources.

We can't discuss random allegations of bloggers that you mistook for journalists. We'd be here forever.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 29, 2022, 09:09:15 AM
It was clear from the very first video from the reporter that it had validity. She is an independent journalist who was presenting government documents and a series of events. Typically this is enough for the foundation of a claim. Her claim had evidence behind it. The suggestion of it being false had no evidence. Yet this denialist narrative was doubled down upon with zero evidence, while simultaneously denying the evidence that existed.

Usually when there is evidence for something, that evidence stands until something contradicts it. In the case of the anti-Russia posters here it appears that there is a severe bias, with frequent emotional outbursts in this thread about "orcs" and a hate for Russia. This is not an impartial judge.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 29, 2022, 09:16:31 AM
Tom, things that are "clear" to you are the gold standard of untrustworthy propaganda around here. In fact, you'd do your narrative a huge service if you just didn't sabotage it by saying "it seems to me like X", or "it is clear that Y".

You're gonna have to present some evidence before your allegations can be meaningfully discussed. It's not yet a matter of whether what you're saying is true or false - you haven't gotten far enough for anyone to make that call. So far, you gave us 2 reputable articles which explain that she might be a criminal, that she regularly peddles untruths, and that she's on Russia's payroll. No evidence of what she's being sued for, or how the lawsuit is going. I wonder why that might be.

So, present your evidence, or move on to the next troll post.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2022, 01:30:16 AM
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
No evidence of what she's being sued for

This was given and explained in the last link I gave:

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/parteien/id_100035872/putins-deutsche-kriegerin-alina-lipp-erhaelt-unterstuetzung-von-afd-verein.html


She is being prosecuted for inciting the psychological climate within the population of Germany. This statement from the prosecutor agrees with the governement document (https://vk.com/doc423403042_639512059?hash=9zlewb4p7dcuBoUU79mF8Y7I4F8V9IXm78SWIBzrQZ8) that the Anna Lipp provided. According to Google Translate the last paragraph of the second page says:


Her Telegram posts risk shaking apart the trust in the institution and the trust in the democratic system as a whole. Those must be some posts.

Two examples are cited by the prosecutors, where she spoke of Donbass regions being affected by genocide and where she wrote "denazification has begun":

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_92326694/putins-deutsches-sprachrohr-alina-lipp-behoerden-ermitteln-wegen-kriegspropaganda-.html


These examples are also cited in the document. Apparently if you are a German journalist living in Donbass and you publish an editorial siding with the people there, or if you condone the invasion, repeat the claim of Nazism, and say that there was genocide in Donbass, it is deserving of criminal prosecution by the German government. You are not allowed to have an opinion which sides with the opposition.

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
she's on Russia's payroll.

It does not say that anywhere.

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
how the lawsuit is going

If you are truly interested in this then you should probably subscribe to her Telegram channel for the latest updates. The legal system can be quite slow, and she will likely provide updates there as she sees fit.

From a t-online.de article from 08/10/2022 (October 8th, 2022 - Europe uses DD/MM/YYYY) we read that a lawyer in Berlin named Michel Adam has taken up her case, and t-online reached out to him for comment. He did not indicate that there has yet been a court appearance, but affirmed that he was representing Alina Lipp and provided explanation for why he was representing her:

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/deutschland/parteien/id_100035872/putins-deutsche-kriegerin-alina-lipp-erhaelt-unterstuetzung-von-afd-verein.html

Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 30, 2022, 02:50:20 AM
This is another piece of evidence that Germany is engaged in political prosecution and is going after people like Alina Lipp for these kind of offenses.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-police-probe-displays-of-support-for-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/a-61502540


You are not allowed to have an opinion that sides with Russia in regards to Ukraine. If you side with the opposing narrative it's a "criminal offense".
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: stack on October 30, 2022, 03:22:37 AM
I’m pretty sure you can’t walk around waving a flag with a swastica on it in Germany. It’s not really known as a bastion of free speech. She’s an apparent font of Russian propaganda. I don’t see what the issue is. Germany is cancelling her. Whatevs, she’s just some Russian blogger of no real import.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 30, 2022, 09:28:17 AM
Tom, that's a lot of REEEEEing and attempting to change the subject, but we asked for evidence regarding her lawsuit. If crying about "political prosecution" (more accurately, investigations which will likely lead to nothing) is your best approach, it's probably time to take the L.

Plenty of people, including yourself, are under investigation for peddling Russian propaganda, especially if, like Lipp, you've accepted money from Russia (thanks for documenting that, by the way). Doesn't mean you're going to jail anytime soon.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: J-Man on November 15, 2022, 07:00:49 PM
Kiev..Lights out ! Was Poland an attempt by the midg man to bring NATO into fight since the place is dark and getting darker?

Probably shoulda negotiated?  G20 votes for Russia to rebuild Zel's backyard. Putin is going to loose all finances held by NATO, so....

I guess he takes Ukraine and ALL its asset.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 16, 2022, 08:30:01 AM
I guess he takes Ukraine and ALL its asset.
Yes, that's been going swimmingly so far.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rushy on November 20, 2022, 11:11:22 PM
I like how Western media consistently portrayed Russia as being able to do things like invade both of America's coasts or burn down the White House. Then, as it turns out, Russia has trouble holding cities mere kilometers from their own border. When Obama called Russia a "regional power" in 2014, he was mocked for underestimating Russia. Now, in hindsight, we can only conclude that he was vastly overestimating them instead.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Lord Dave on November 21, 2022, 05:18:23 AM
I like how Western media consistently portrayed Russia as being able to do things like invade both of America's coasts or burn down the White House. Then, as it turns out, Russia has trouble holding cities mere kilometers from their own border. When Obama called Russia a "regional power" in 2014, he was mocked for underestimating Russia. Now, in hindsight, we can only conclude that he was vastly overestimating them instead.

Its not just western media.  Governments all over did.  Hell, Putin was probably told the same thing.

Russia is really good at propoganda, even against itself.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on November 21, 2022, 12:13:00 PM
I like how Western media consistently portrayed Russia as being able to do things like invade both of America's coasts or burn down the White House. Then, as it turns out, Russia has trouble holding cities mere kilometers from their own border. When Obama called Russia a "regional power" in 2014, he was mocked for underestimating Russia. Now, in hindsight, we can only conclude that he was vastly overestimating them instead.

It’s a bit of both though. They ostensibly have enough nukes to burn America down but then would take a few months to arrive in their rowboats.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: crutonius on November 21, 2022, 03:50:49 PM
And for some reason a lot of Western pundits keep cowering in fear of Russia as if the last 9 months didn't happen.

It's like their minds are trapped in 1945.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: Rama Set on November 21, 2022, 03:55:22 PM
And for some reason a lot of Western pundits keep cowering in fear of Russia as if the last 9 months didn't happen.

It's like their minds are trapped in 1945.

Incorrect.  Their minds are trapped in trying to own the Biden administration.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on November 22, 2022, 12:48:12 AM
And for some reason a lot of Western pundits keep cowering in fear of Russia as if the last 9 months didn't happen.

It's like their minds are trapped in 1945.
August 6, 1945 to be precise.
Title: Re: Russia doesn't invade, they recognize Donbass Republics: send in peacekeepers !
Post by: markjo on November 27, 2022, 05:03:37 PM
Is Russia running out of their own conventional cruise missiles?
Quote from: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/russia-ukraine-mod-james-cleverly-vladimir-putin-b2233407.html
Depleted Russia removing nuclear warheads from old missiles to hit Ukraine – MoD
The strategy is ‘unlikely to achieve reliable effects’ and shows how Vladimir Putin’s forces are struggling, officials said.


Also, it looks like the Ukrainian civilians aren't the only ones in for a rough winter.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/11/27/russian-soldiers-are-freezing-to-death-in-eastern-ukraine/