Online SteelyBob

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2021, 09:53:08 PM »
I don't think there is a standard RE map. There seem to be several different ones if you look for them. Many of them offer a very euro-centric view of the world with Europe given greater space than is accurate. How can RE maps be assumed "accurate" if they have these inbuilt biases? FE maps should avoid this pitfall I think.
BTW I'm new so go easy on me!

The ‘standard RE map’ is a globe.

Everything else suffers from some sort of error, and which errors you choose to live with depends on what you need the map for and, yes, bias certainly creeps in - witness the fact that we choose to orientate the earth north-up, for example.

However, the fact that it is impossible to accurately represent a globe earth on a flat map is not in any way an argument to support the contention that the earth isn’t a globe.

Flat earth, on the other hand, shouldn’t have any such problem - it should be easy to create a map of the world, with distances and bearings all accurately represented. The fact is that it can’t be done, and there’s a very good reason for that.

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2021, 11:21:16 PM »
I don't think there is a standard RE map. There seem to be several different ones if you look for them. Many of them offer a very euro-centric view of the world with Europe given greater space than is accurate. How can RE maps be assumed "accurate" if they have these inbuilt biases? FE maps should avoid this pitfall I think.
BTW I'm new so go easy on me!

The ‘standard RE map’ is a globe.

Everything else suffers from some sort of error, and which errors you choose to live with depends on what you need the map for and, yes, bias certainly creeps in - witness the fact that we choose to orientate the earth north-up, for example.

However, the fact that it is impossible to accurately represent a globe earth on a flat map is not in any way an argument to support the contention that the earth isn’t a globe.

Flat earth, on the other hand, shouldn’t have any such problem - it should be easy to create a map of the world, with distances and bearings all accurately represented. The fact is that it can’t be done, and there’s a very good reason for that.

How are you so confident that the "standard" round earth map is so accurate?

I've seen this baseless and shallow argument pop up countless times in these forums.
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Offline stack

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2021, 06:25:17 AM »
I don't think there is a standard RE map. There seem to be several different ones if you look for them. Many of them offer a very euro-centric view of the world with Europe given greater space than is accurate. How can RE maps be assumed "accurate" if they have these inbuilt biases? FE maps should avoid this pitfall I think.
BTW I'm new so go easy on me!

The ‘standard RE map’ is a globe.

Everything else suffers from some sort of error, and which errors you choose to live with depends on what you need the map for and, yes, bias certainly creeps in - witness the fact that we choose to orientate the earth north-up, for example.

However, the fact that it is impossible to accurately represent a globe earth on a flat map is not in any way an argument to support the contention that the earth isn’t a globe.

Flat earth, on the other hand, shouldn’t have any such problem - it should be easy to create a map of the world, with distances and bearings all accurately represented. The fact is that it can’t be done, and there’s a very good reason for that.

How are you so confident that the "standard" round earth map is so accurate?

I've seen this baseless and shallow argument pop up countless times in these forums.

How is the claim baseless?

Peter Winfield

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2021, 07:47:48 AM »
How are you so confident that the "standard" round earth map is so accurate?

I've seen this baseless and shallow argument pop up countless times in these forums.

The RE model explains the South Pole, the motion of the Sun, the Seasons, and the relative sizes of the different continents. It has been accepted for thousands of years and is supported by the overwhelming percentage of the data that has ever been collected. And RE data continues to be collected at a huge rate by thousands of scientific instruments every day.

The baseless and shallow argument is the one the claims it is all a hoax. There is absolutely no evidence for this. There isn't even a plausible theory about how "they" might be able to create such a massive fake.

Online SteelyBob

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2021, 08:51:19 AM »

How are you so confident that the "standard" round earth map is so accurate?

I've seen this baseless and shallow argument pop up countless times in these forums.

How am I so confident? Personally, because I have navigated over large distances, on land, sea and air, using distances and bearings derived from the widely agreed globe earth mapping. Moreover, the shape of the world features in almost aspect of our lives, and on both micro and macro levels I'm not aware of a single example of the dimensions of any country or continent being found to be wrong. Every flight, every long distance truck journey, railway, global shipping operations...they all use this data and don't find it wanting.

So, nobody has ever found a problem with it, and there is not a single FE map that's presented on this website that doesn't have an immediate, obvious problem with it. When these problems are pointed, they get waved away as if the presence of lots of other equally wrong FE maps somehow makes it ok. Falling back on 'we aren't quite sure which map is correct yet' fails to account for the fact that all of the proposed maps and models are wrong - none of them match our observed earth.

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2021, 05:15:59 PM »
I don't think there is a standard RE map. There seem to be several different ones if you look for them. Many of them offer a very euro-centric view of the world with Europe given greater space than is accurate. How can RE maps be assumed "accurate" if they have these inbuilt biases? FE maps should avoid this pitfall I think.
BTW I'm new so go easy on me!

The ‘standard RE map’ is a globe.

Everything else suffers from some sort of error, and which errors you choose to live with depends on what you need the map for and, yes, bias certainly creeps in - witness the fact that we choose to orientate the earth north-up, for example.

However, the fact that it is impossible to accurately represent a globe earth on a flat map is not in any way an argument to support the contention that the earth isn’t a globe.

Flat earth, on the other hand, shouldn’t have any such problem - it should be easy to create a map of the world, with distances and bearings all accurately represented. The fact is that it can’t be done, and there’s a very good reason for that.

How are you so confident that the "standard" round earth map is so accurate?

I've seen this baseless and shallow argument pop up countless times in these forums.

How many millions of intercontinental flights based on RET would it take to convince you?

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2021, 06:11:43 PM »
How are you so confident that the "standard" round earth map is so accurate?

I've seen this baseless and shallow argument pop up countless times in these forums.

I think if any Flat Earth model is to get any lift at all, it will have to accept a few given things.

A flat Earth model will have to accept that we do indeed know the size and shapes of the major continents and incorporate that into their model. I've crossed North America professionally a couple of times and I know my gas consumption and mileage. Many, many everyday people are intimately familiar with the size and shape of the continent they live on.

A flat Earth model will have to embrace the idea that Antarctica does indeed exist as a continent. I have seen Flat Earth models that have a complete map of the North Pole and the South Pole inside the edge of the disk. Of course, the travel distances over the oceans were then massively distorted by orders of magnitude but fewer people are as intimately familiar with crossing the ocean. It would be easier to sell the idea of some Pac-Man effect or navigational hoax in the middle of the ocean.

Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Offline jimster

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2021, 08:38:51 PM »
https://geodesy.noaa.gov/INFO/geodesy.shtml

The US geodetic survey is about determining position over distances large enough that the curve of the earth matters. There are markers all over the US. There is a database that locates them in 3d space.

If you need to know the precise position of points all over the country, you can use this data base. Or you could come to this web site and look at the maps in the FAQ. You could post questions on the forums about how to find distances between places without GPS or the USGS database (being the product of fools or liars, doncha' know, a few sociopathic liars fooling most of their stupid staff sheep, doncha' know).

Not clear whether FE believes gps and distances on google maps. The only thing I have ever found that all FEs believe is that the earth is not round.

Would love to see the meeting where someone says "We can't use the data from the govt agencies, because the earth is flat and it is all a giant hoax. I am researching FE. So far, no consensus on what the map is or distances, but we are watching Jeranism, DMarble, Globebusters, and many others. Please do not tell anyone outside this room because if the NASA thugs find out we are revealing the truth, they will threaten us and our families with whatever force necessary to shut us up."

Peter Winfield

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2021, 10:20:28 PM »
The only thing I have ever found that all FEs believe is that the earth is not round.

Indeed. FEs are defined by what they don't believe, not what they do believe. That is why they spend so much effort trying to prove that RE is wrong, but spend almost no effort trying to prove that FE is right.

That is why (as suggested by the question) there is no standard map of the Earth. FE simply aren't interested in what the Earth actually looks like as long as it is not Round.

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2021, 12:22:39 AM »
How are you so confident that the "standard" round earth map is so accurate?

I've seen this baseless and shallow argument pop up countless times in these forums.

I think if any Flat Earth model is to get any lift at all, it will have to accept a few given things.

A flat Earth model will have to accept that we do indeed know the size and shapes of the major continents and incorporate that into their model. I've crossed North America professionally a couple of times and I know my gas consumption and mileage. Many, many everyday people are intimately familiar with the size and shape of the continent they live on.

A flat Earth model will have to embrace the idea that Antarctica does indeed exist as a continent. I have seen Flat Earth models that have a complete map of the North Pole and the South Pole inside the edge of the disk. Of course, the travel distances over the oceans were then massively distorted by orders of magnitude but fewer people are as intimately familiar with crossing the ocean. It would be easier to sell the idea of some Pac-Man effect or navigational hoax in the middle of the ocean.

Regarding the underlined, I don't see how that's possible considering:
  • The area of the earth (according to RET) is 510.1 million sq km.
  • If the size and shape of continents are agreed upon, the distance from the north pole to the equator is therefore agreed to be 10,000 km.
  • That would create a flat earth disc with a radius of 20,000 km.
  • The area of said disc would be 1,256.637 million sq km.
  • Therefore a flat earth would have 746.537 million sq km more area (2.4635 times) than a globe earth.
  • Because the size and shape of land masses is agreed upon (I assume the shape and size of islands is also agreed upon), ALL of the extra area would have to be ocean.
  • The area covered by ocean according to RET is 361 million sq km. The area in your scenario of FET would therefore be 361 million plus 746.5 million, or 1.107 billion sq km.
  • That comes to slightly more than 3 times as much ocean on a flat earth.
  • Accounting for such a spectacular amount of extra ocean is simply not possible without it creating equally spectacularly changed distances between continents compared to those of RET
The size of land masses, the distance between them, and the direction between any two points of earth can never be reconciled between FET and RET.

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2021, 01:37:23 AM »

The RE model explains the South Pole, the motion of the Sun, the Seasons, and the relative sizes of the different continents. It has been accepted for thousands of years and is supported by the overwhelming percentage of the data that has ever been collected. And RE data continues to be collected at a huge rate by thousands of scientific instruments every day.

The baseless and shallow argument is the one the claims it is all a hoax. There is absolutely no evidence for this. There isn't even a plausible theory about how "they" might be able to create such a massive fake.

Indeed. FEs are defined by what they don't believe, not what they do believe. That is why they spend so much effort trying to prove that RE is wrong, but spend almost no effort trying to prove that FE is right.
You need to read over what you've just said and stop letting your emotions get in the way.

You are the only person making claims here - therefore you need to provide the evidence.

Claim 1: RE model has been accepted for thousands of years - I can't wait to see how you back this claim up
Claim 2: RE has been supported by the overwhelming percentage of the data - What data?
Claim 3: RE data continues to be collected at a huge rate by thousands of scientific instruments every day - name one instrument that proves RE...

How many millions of intercontinental flights based on RET would it take to convince you?
You need to learn how flights work. Airliners use filed flight plans and radar communication with air traffic control. The filed flight plans are based off of years of historic data collection. Nothing here proves the shape of the earth.
Lex I: Corpus omne perseverare in statu suo quiescendi vel movendi uniformiter in directum, nisi quatenus a viribus impressis cogitur statum illum mutare.
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Offline stack

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2021, 03:00:07 AM »
How many millions of intercontinental flights based on RET would it take to convince you?
You need to learn how flights work. Airliners use filed flight plans and radar communication with air traffic control. The filed flight plans are based off of years of historic data collection. Nothing here proves the shape of the earth.

I don't know about "proving" the shape of the earth, but flight systems and navigational protocols rely on Globe earth calculations, maps, and geodesy. For example, see this from the FAA:

Maximum Course Length between Required Navigation Performance (RNP) Waypoints
It is the purpose of this analysis to determine a maximum distance between RNP waypoints, which ensure that overall risk to navigation remains at or below an acceptable level...
Manufacturers of FMS systems were contacted regarding the computational course solution used in their FMS systems, including satellite navigation. Each indicated that the computations used in each of their respective systems are based upon great circles of the volumetric sphere. The paper cited in the references from Smiths Industries also examines the differences between spherical great circle and geodesic WGS-84 ellipsoid solutions. The results shown are consistent with the analysis contained herein...
Similarly, for routes with designed primary widths of 8 NM constructed using Lambert projections and flown with either great circle or WGS-84 geodetic computations, it is recommended that maximum route length between waypoints be set at 100 NM.
[/font][/size]
http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/afs420-92.pdf

I'm sure you're aware what Great Circles are and how they conform to a spherical earth. As well, I'm sure you're familiar with the WGS-84 ellipsoid model. Well, that's what Airliners use.

Here's what Lambert Conformal flight chart looks like:



It, like many others, is a projection from a globe. Here's how a Lambert conical projection is rendered:



In short, Airliners correctly or incorrectly rely on a spherical earth for all things navigation all the way down to calculating required fuel amounts for a given leg. So I'm not sure where you are getting your information from that they don't. But if you have a source, feel free to present it.


Peter Winfield

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2021, 07:34:17 AM »
You are the only person making claims here - therefore you need to provide the evidence.

If you look at the subject line you will see that I am asking a question about FE.

Claim 1: RE model has been accepted for thousands of years - I can't wait to see how you back this claim up
Claim 2: RE has been supported by the overwhelming percentage of the data - What data?
Claim 3: RE data continues to be collected at a huge rate by thousands of scientific instruments every day - name one instrument that proves RE...


1) It was know before the time of Jesus that the Earth was a globe, and this has not been seriously challenged since then. During the religious arguments of the C16 about the motion of the Sun, neither side claimed that the Earth was flat. Many people were prepared to risk their life to challenge the accepted model and say that the Sun is stationary, but nobody was prepared to risk their life to say that the Earth is flat.

2) Detailed measurements of the movement of the Sun and stars support the RE model. If there was a detailed FE model then those measurements would disprove that.

3) Perseverance, GPS, SOHO, a Campbell–Stokes recorder, a time-lapse camera, or even just marks on a piece of paper at the Equinox.

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2021, 12:15:11 AM »

You need to learn how flights work. Airliners use filed flight plans and radar communication with air traffic control. The filed flight plans are based off of years of historic data collection. Nothing here proves the shape of the earth.
[/quote].

We seem to have an oxymoron here; flight plans are based off years of historic data collection (i.e. the distance and vector relationships between all the world's airports), but this tells us nothing about the shape of the world?  Some would argue that this tells us everything about its shape. 

And maybe we need to look again at the role of Air Traffic Control.  The safe navigation of an aircraft is entirely the responsibility of its captain.  He (she) decides the destination and is responsible for ensuring sufficient fuel and adequate means of navigation.  He is assisted in safely making the journey by ATC. 

In this last week, a Boeing of Icelandair carried a group of scientists between Munich and the Norwegian blue-ice Troll airstrip in Antarctica, and return.  It's unlikely that Icelandair has done this before, but they did it by knowing the relative positions of Munich and Troll.  And don't expect much intervention from ATC, as much of the South Atlantic is beyond the range of VHF radio and radar. 
 

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2021, 01:45:49 AM »
Hello everyone my name is Anthony and I am new here.  I have sort of thought the maps we have are wrong but I didn't understand why.  I guess I had other things going on so this issue got put on the back burner for years.  I have always found maps to be very interesting.  Last week I came across a youtube channel about maps from the age of discovery. These guys made some really incredible maps but what they were putting on them did not fit with what we today see as the world we live in.

Well the ancient maps are what got me started looking at the Earth. Then recently I came across a map made from a reflection of the earth on the moon.  Oh wow I cannot describe what was on that map.  If correct then the earth is absolutely flat however that is only half of the prize.  I do not know if I can explain this so you can understand but I will give it a go.  To put it simply the North pole is magnetic so circles out from it at certain distances are how we navigate.  Pretty simple but only half the story.  What if there is something beyond what we know of as Earth? What if there would be a way to get there?  Not by going through the government controlled region around the so called south pole. I believe there is a way to get outside of the known area of earth. Anyone interested? You can email me on here or so the forum says. I have never been the one who had a truly enormous idea, a idea that could really change our world.  I cannot do it alone. 

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2021, 03:56:39 AM »
Round earth theory has a very precise and accurate map of the earth
Who developed this map and where can I find it? I'm interested to know what makes a map "round"
Take a look at WGS-84.  https://www.unoosa.org/pdf/icg/2012/template/WGS_84.pdf 
This should get you started on your requested information.
Any person operating a ship on the high seas will use a series of WGS-84 charts of the earth's surface for navigation.  Each and every day you will see the ship's navigator on the bridge using his dividers and scales to plot the ship's progress on it's route to the next port.  Yes, there's also an electronic version of these same charts and I would update them on a weekly basis.  We were confident of the accuracy of these charts to a couple of meters and they would keep our ship 'off the rocks'.  If this weren't enough, I also had access to the finer details of our navigational gyros.  These gyros were important and greatly reduced the workload of the watch officer and the lookout.  If you took a good look at the data stream from the gyros over a period of time a globe earth shape would be confirmed.  So now you have very detailed and accurate charts drawn from a globe earth projection and a couple of gyros also confirming the shape of the earth.  I am puzzled as to why this evidence would be disregarded as invalid.

You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Peter Winfield

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2021, 09:35:27 AM »
FEs are defined by what they don't believe, not what they do believe. That is why they spend so much effort trying to prove that RE is wrong, but spend almost no effort trying to prove that FE is right.
You need to read over what you've just said and stop letting your emotions get in the way.
I stand by this statement, and I can't see anything emotional about it. From my observations so far, FEs are united about what is wrong the science that says the Earth is round, but they are divided about what is right with the FE model.

“si monumentum requiris, circumspice”

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2021, 05:25:56 PM »
I guess my ideas are so far out there that no one will even think beyond flat or round.  Ya'll know the amount of land, and the size of the earth, or do you?  If the powers that be can hide the very shape of our planet could they not then hide half or more of the landmasses on said planet? 

The round earth police have gotten you into defense mode.  You are so caught up in proving your right and they are wrong you have all missed the larger picture.  I don't care if the earth is round or square or a inside out triangle.  What I do care about is the truth of it.  Not just the truth of the shape but also the size.  Is no one interested in the idea that the earth could be much larger than we have ever dreamed or been told?

Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2021, 06:05:20 PM »
I guess my ideas are so far out there that no one will even ....

It’s nothing to do with how far out there your ideas might be - you’re expected to produce evidence or references which back up those ideas. Perhaps lots of us would be interested in the map you “cannot describe” but if you can’t even tell where to find it then yawn, next please.  ::)

Try to back up what you’re saying first: the rest of us are expected to do it and so should you. There’s more than you with “out there” ideas.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2021, 06:21:14 PM »
I guess my ideas are so far out there that no one will even think beyond flat or round.  Ya'll know the amount of land, and the size of the earth, or do you?  If the powers that be can hide the very shape of our planet could they not then hide half or more of the landmasses on said planet? 

The round earth police have gotten you into defense mode.  You are so caught up in proving your right and they are wrong you have all missed the larger picture.  I don't care if the earth is round or square or a inside out triangle.  What I do care about is the truth of it.  Not just the truth of the shape but also the size.  Is no one interested in the idea that the earth could be much larger than we have ever dreamed or been told?
If you are looking for a 'treasure' then you have to have a map, or at least an idea of where you will start to look.  If you think you know of some land area on the surface of the earth that isn't already known then give us an idea of just where that might be.  Who knows, maybe someone has already looked there and could give you some hints.  Why try to 're-invent' the wheel?  If you have a location on the map where no one has been then you might need some help to mount an expedition.  Again, you have to have a concrete plan and a known area to look.  Please share your detailed ideas, we know you might need some help. 
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!