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Offline Roundy

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #720 on: September 13, 2021, 10:26:31 PM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die. I know it's crude to put it that way but it's that simple. Idiots who refuse to get the vaccine are clogging up hospital beds. Give those beds to the responsible people who did what they could to prevent getting the virus. If you refused to do something that would have prevented you from being on life support, and somebody else needs that system, sorry about your luck.

Besides, everyone dies, right? They will die eventually whether on life support or not. According to reasoning you've used in this argument, it doesn't make a bit of difference when they die, so stop fearmongering!   >:(
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 10:33:56 PM by Roundy »
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline stack

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #721 on: September 13, 2021, 10:27:00 PM »
There is no FDA approved vaccine.

FDA approval means biological approval.

If there was biological approval for the Pfizer vaccine, then the other versions would be pulled from the market and the EUA's revoked.

That hasn't happened.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but you're wrong:

"Reuters reported on Aug. 23 that the FDA had granted full approval to the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for use in people aged 16 and older. It would be marketed under the name Comirnaty (here).
The FDA state that Comirnaty has the same formulation as the EUA-approved (Emergency Use Authorization) Pfizer vaccine and is interchangeable (here).

“With full FDA approval, the company can officially give the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine a brand name, and that name is Comirnaty. So, people getting the vaccine can feel confident that it is both safe and effective”, Smith wrote.

The FDA told Reuters via email that one point of continuity is that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine will still be covered by the EUA for children aged 12 to 15 years old and for third doses to immunocompromised individuals aged 12 and older.
"

The confusion about the EUA still existing has to do with the last paragraph above.
As usual, you're wrong.

Emphasis on the words, AS USUAL.

So the guy on the right is saying that the law (Federal) states that if FDA approval is given to one vaccine then all of the EUA's for other vaccines are automatically revoked. I'm having a hard time finding that "law". Can you please point us to said law and not to just some tax attorney saying there is a law?

Since you never seem to provide any real sources, I'll help you out. I'm guessing the guy on the right is referring to this from the FDA:

d. No Alternatives

For FDA to issue an EUA, there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative to the candidate product for diagnosing, preventing, or treating the disease or condition. 
A potential alternative product may be considered “unavailable” if there are insufficient supplies of the approved alternative to fully meet the emergency need.  A potential alternative product may be considered "inadequate" if, for example, there are contraindicating data for special circumstances or populations (e.g., children, immunocompromised individuals, or individuals with a drug allergy), if a dosage form of an approved product is inappropriate for use in a special population (e.g., a tablet for individuals who cannot swallow pills), or if the agent is or may be resistant to approved and available alternative products.

https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/emergency-use-authorization-medical-products-and-related-authorities#medproducts

Key phrasing here, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative..." As we've seen Modern, Pfizer, & J&J all received EUA's. Why? Well, for one, each may not have been adequate on their own, they weren't approved, obvi, and availability is always an issue. Se they all got EUA's.

Now fast-forward to Pfizer's getting FDA approval for 16 an up. One, they still get to keep the EUA for between 12-16. For two, again, return to the phrase, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative". Moderna and J&J still get to keep their EUA's even though Pfizer is approved because:

- May not be adequate, ex., Moderna has had some issues regarding myocarditis with mostly teens (Pfizer too I think, but maybe not as pronounced as Moderna). J&J doesn't seem to have this issue.
- May not be available, ex., I could only get Pfizer at the time as Moderna and J&J were not available in my area. It's the other way around for a lot of folks.

So, unless your Tax Attorney is pointing to some other "law" I can't find, he is either woefully mis-informed or is deliberately mis-informing.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #722 on: September 13, 2021, 11:38:29 PM »
Yeah, the guy on the right is a tax lawer and the guy on the left is a Canadian litigator of some sort.
Seen videos from the bloke on the left before.
He spent months being wrong about the merit of all the cases Trump and his allies were filing. It’s nice to see he’s now turned his attention to (probably) being wrong about this.

To be fair, he’s probably just grifting people like Tom and Total Lackey for ad dollars.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #723 on: September 14, 2021, 04:11:57 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/13/1036521499/covid-workers-resign-new-york-hospital-stops-baby-delivery

Basically a bunch of baby healthcare staff quit instead of get a shot.
I hope they get no Unemployment and they starve! 

Fucking whiny bitches.

Those hospitals are far better off without them. Unvaccinated they would not be healers but killers.

Except now maternity services are suspended and other staff are stretched thin.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #724 on: September 14, 2021, 04:15:34 AM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

I mean... Your insurance company and the hospital already have this power.  And you're afraid of the guys who need your support every 2-4 years?  As opposed to the guys you can't live without? (And can't change because they're all the same)
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #725 on: September 14, 2021, 10:07:57 AM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #726 on: September 14, 2021, 10:09:51 AM »
There is no FDA approved vaccine.

FDA approval means biological approval.

If there was biological approval for the Pfizer vaccine, then the other versions would be pulled from the market and the EUA's revoked.

That hasn't happened.

I'm not sure where you get your information, but you're wrong:

"Reuters reported on Aug. 23 that the FDA had granted full approval to the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for use in people aged 16 and older. It would be marketed under the name Comirnaty (here).
The FDA state that Comirnaty has the same formulation as the EUA-approved (Emergency Use Authorization) Pfizer vaccine and is interchangeable (here).

“With full FDA approval, the company can officially give the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine a brand name, and that name is Comirnaty. So, people getting the vaccine can feel confident that it is both safe and effective”, Smith wrote.

The FDA told Reuters via email that one point of continuity is that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine will still be covered by the EUA for children aged 12 to 15 years old and for third doses to immunocompromised individuals aged 12 and older.
"

The confusion about the EUA still existing has to do with the last paragraph above.
As usual, you're wrong.

Emphasis on the words, AS USUAL.

So the guy on the right is saying that the law (Federal) states that if FDA approval is given to one vaccine then all of the EUA's for other vaccines are automatically revoked. I'm having a hard time finding that "law". Can you please point us to said law and not to just some tax attorney saying there is a law?

Since you never seem to provide any real sources, I'll help you out. I'm guessing the guy on the right is referring to this from the FDA:

d. No Alternatives

For FDA to issue an EUA, there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative to the candidate product for diagnosing, preventing, or treating the disease or condition. 
A potential alternative product may be considered “unavailable” if there are insufficient supplies of the approved alternative to fully meet the emergency need.  A potential alternative product may be considered "inadequate" if, for example, there are contraindicating data for special circumstances or populations (e.g., children, immunocompromised individuals, or individuals with a drug allergy), if a dosage form of an approved product is inappropriate for use in a special population (e.g., a tablet for individuals who cannot swallow pills), or if the agent is or may be resistant to approved and available alternative products.

https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/emergency-use-authorization-medical-products-and-related-authorities#medproducts

Key phrasing here, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative..." As we've seen Modern, Pfizer, & J&J all received EUA's. Why? Well, for one, each may not have been adequate on their own, they weren't approved, obvi, and availability is always an issue. Se they all got EUA's.

Now fast-forward to Pfizer's getting FDA approval for 16 an up. One, they still get to keep the EUA for between 12-16. For two, again, return to the phrase, "there must be no adequate, approved, and available alternative". Moderna and J&J still get to keep their EUA's even though Pfizer is approved because:

- May not be adequate, ex., Moderna has had some issues regarding myocarditis with mostly teens (Pfizer too I think, but maybe not as pronounced as Moderna). J&J doesn't seem to have this issue.
- May not be available, ex., I could only get Pfizer at the time as Moderna and J&J were not available in my area. It's the other way around for a lot of folks.

So, unless your Tax Attorney is pointing to some other "law" I can't find, he is either woefully mis-informed or is deliberately mis-informing.
You remain wrong, because you want to ignore the word approved.

You can't find anything.

Not only are you wrong, you're just trolling the thread.

Nothing new from you here. All the same type of behavior we have seen from you in the past.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 12:31:51 PM by Action80 »

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #727 on: September 14, 2021, 11:01:41 AM »
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #728 on: September 14, 2021, 11:10:56 AM »
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 11:26:18 AM by jack44556677 »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #729 on: September 14, 2021, 02:55:39 PM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???

Have you had a change of heart? Does a few extra years of life suddenly mean something to you? Please, at least solidify your own intent so we can understand your position better!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 03:03:39 PM by Roundy »
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #730 on: September 14, 2021, 03:23:27 PM »
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf


Children's Health Defense is an American activist group mainly known for anti-vaccine activities and has been identified as one of the main sources of misinformation on vaccines.

.... and you think we're the ones being manipulated by the media?
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #731 on: September 14, 2021, 03:52:16 PM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.
Have you had a change of heart? Does a few extra years of life suddenly mean something to you? Please, at least solidify your own intent so we can understand your position better!
We all know your position.

On your knees or bent over.

Mine is standing up.

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #732 on: September 14, 2021, 03:53:55 PM »
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf


Children's Health Defense is an American activist group mainly known for anti-vaccine activities and has been identified as one of the main sources of misinformation on vaccines.

.... and you think we're the ones being manipulated by the media?
Misinformation.

Rather than make that blanket statement, go ahead and point out exactly what is misinformation they issue regarding vaccines.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #733 on: September 14, 2021, 04:46:30 PM »
Even if the severe side effects for the vaccine are rare, some people have low immunity and bad health, fall into that risk area, and are being forced to endanger their health with an experimental vaccine.


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Offline Roundy

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #734 on: September 14, 2021, 04:48:01 PM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be a libertarian. I'm full-on liberal, always have been.

I guess I don't understand why you think life support is even important. It doesn't save someone from dying after all, since we all die. So why does it make a difference to you at all who the government would allow to use it?

That's why you're fearmongering here. You're hyping up a situation as overreach even though you don't believe in the usefulness of the situation anyway. If we all die anyway and it doesn't make any difference how or when (again, just using an argument you made previously here), why would such a hypothetical situation as you imagined I created bother you so?

Please, stop fearmongering.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #735 on: September 14, 2021, 04:55:59 PM »
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

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Offline stack

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #736 on: September 14, 2021, 05:16:32 PM »
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf

I'm sure there are a lot of cases being brought regarding vaccines, masks, mandates, etc. But to simply say "there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product" is not doing any due diligence into how the laws are written.

In the case you cited it states, "The FDA purportedly managed to do what the law forbids: "approve" a vaccine but not revoke any Emergency Use Authorized vaccines for the same indication." Just because they wrote that in their complaint doesn't mean that it is a fact.

And they reference their interpretation of what I copied and pasted from the FDA regarding EUA's and "approvals". This particular case, sponsored by this "childrens health defense", from the complaint, they have previously filed to have Pfizer not get FDA approval and requested all EUA's be revoked. If you read the complaint it's a lot more about making it so mandates can't be mandated, so to speak. And this "can't have an approved vaccine and EUA's at the same time," business is sort of a trojan horse to get the real issue addressed: Mandates, especially in the private sector.

Obvi the courts will decide this, but I see no where where you can't have EUA's and Approved vaccines at the same time - Especially regarding the FDC's wording around , "available" & "adequate". It comes down to the language.

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #737 on: September 14, 2021, 05:20:37 PM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be a libertarian. I'm full-on liberal, always have been.

I guess I don't understand why you think life support is even important. It doesn't save someone from dying after all, since we all die. So why does it make a difference to you at all who the government would allow to use it?

That's why you're fearmongering here. You're hyping up a situation as overreach even though you don't believe in the usefulness of the situation anyway. If we all die anyway and it doesn't make any difference how or when (again, just using an argument you made previously here), why would such a hypothetical situation as you imagined I created bother you so?

Please, stop fearmongering.
I am not fearmongering.

I am making a statement regarding what I believe to be ill-based government policy decisions made by fiat and not based on scientific reality.

I am not afraid.

Offline Action80

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #738 on: September 14, 2021, 05:22:32 PM »
I don't know what you are talking about regarding tax law but there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product.

It's all in the lawsuit, check it out! https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/CHD-v.-FDA-Submitted-Complaint-8.31.21.pdf

I'm sure there are a lot of cases being brought regarding vaccines, masks, mandates, etc. But to simply say "there are several laws/statutes violated by holding an EUA and FDA approval simultaneously for the same product" is not doing any due diligence into how the laws are written.

In the case you cited it states, "The FDA purportedly managed to do what the law forbids: "approve" a vaccine but not revoke any Emergency Use Authorized vaccines for the same indication." Just because they wrote that in their complaint doesn't mean that it is a fact.

And they reference their interpretation of what I copied and pasted from the FDA regarding EUA's and "approvals". This particular case, sponsored by this "childrens health defense", from the complaint, they have previously filed to have Pfizer not get FDA approval and requested all EUA's be revoked. If you read the complaint it's a lot more about making it so mandates can't be mandated, so to speak. And this "can't have an approved vaccine and EUA's at the same time," business is sort of a trojan horse to get the real issue addressed: Mandates, especially in the private sector.

Obvi the courts will decide this, but I see no where where you can't have EUA's and Approved vaccines at the same time - Especially regarding the FDC's wording around , "available" & "adequate". It comes down to the language.
Yeah, more double speak.

You like to bring up available and adequate but ignore the word approved.


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Offline Roundy

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #739 on: September 14, 2021, 05:37:55 PM »
If government has the authority to do this, then they will also have authority to pull you off life support.

If it was from someone who refused to get the vaccine, to save the life of someone who got the vaccine, I'd be all for it.

If you're gonna be a dumbass about something that could save your life you deserve to die.
Roundy's position = Pull life support from anyone for any cause, not just Covid!

Thanks for solidifying your evil intent for all, Roundy.

Can you explain how it's evil, when they were going to die anyway? Whether pulled from life support or not those people are going to die, just like me and you! Why are you fearmongering all of a sudden?  ???
I am not making a fear mongering statement.

This is a statement regarding what should and should not be allowable for a government to require of its citizenzry.

You know, the shit you are always whining zabout.

Not so much of a libertarian after all, are you.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be a libertarian. I'm full-on liberal, always have been.

I guess I don't understand why you think life support is even important. It doesn't save someone from dying after all, since we all die. So why does it make a difference to you at all who the government would allow to use it?

That's why you're fearmongering here. You're hyping up a situation as overreach even though you don't believe in the usefulness of the situation anyway. If we all die anyway and it doesn't make any difference how or when (again, just using an argument you made previously here), why would such a hypothetical situation as you imagined I created bother you so?

Please, stop fearmongering.
I am not fearmongering.

I am making a statement regarding what I believe to be ill-based government policy decisions made by fiat and not based on scientific reality.

I am not afraid.

No, you're trying to make other people afraid. Obviously you're not afraid, you're railing against something your previously stated personal philosophy suggests you're actually indifferent to. That kind of makes your fearmongering worse.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)