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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2018, 02:32:19 AM »
I will come back to the VSOP program in a bit. I have added three new sections to the article:

    - The Zeroth Step
    - Very Sensitive Solutions
    - Official Explanation: Divine Intervention

https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Mechanics_Cannot_Predict_The_Solar_System#The_Zeroth_Step
Your writing is either incompetently misinterpreting the material you cite or painfully dishonest, Tom. You write that they found over 16,000,000 solutions to the 3-body problem and cherry-pick that a few thousand are exotic. And why is Newton’s personal belief in divinity at all relevant other than to serve your editorial mission? Is your argument so weak that you can’t make it cohesive without fallacies and dishonesty?

The article says that they tested 16,000,000 orbits to find the stable ones. They did not find 15,998,777 stable heliocentric orbits. What happened to the other ones that were not the 1223 they found? They flew apart! There is no dishonesty about it. The article illustrates that Celestial Mechanics is on step zero. They can't model it. They can't even create a simple Sun-Earth-Moon system.

The model of astronomy is based on divine intervention, as stated by Newton himself. This is the only explanation that I have seen.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 02:39:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2018, 02:36:39 AM »
I will come back to the VSOP program in a bit. I have added three new sections to the article:

    - The Zeroth Step
    - Very Sensitive Solutions
    - Official Explanation: Divine Intervention

https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Mechanics_Cannot_Predict_The_Solar_System#The_Zeroth_Step
Your writing is either incompetently misinterpreting the material you cite or painfully dishonest, Tom. You write that they found over 16,000,000 solutions to the 3-body problem and cherry-pick that a few thousand are exotic. And why is Newton’s personal belief in divinity at all relevant other than to serve your editorial mission? Is your argument so weak that you can’t make it cohesive without fallacies and dishonesty?

The article says that they tested 16,000,000 orbits to find the stable ones. They did not find 15,998,777 stable heliocentric orbits. What happened to the other ones that were not the 1223 they found? They flew apart! There is no dishonesty about it. The article illustrates that Celestial Mechanics is on step zero. They can't model it. They can't even create a simple Sun-Earth-Moon system.

My mistake on the numbers, but your objection is still feeble. They can model it, they do model it. You constantly mistake, either willfully or out of plain inability to understand, why there is a limitation on calculating a three-body system.

Quote
The model of astronomy is based on divine intervention, as stated by Newton himself. This is the only explanation I have seen.

This is trash. It’s an argument from authority at the beginning and just a plain lie at the end. The model of astronomy, is based on observation, even if you roll it back to what the Babylonians were doing, and you are perfectly aware of that. Why do you feel the need to stoop down to the basest, most dishonest level?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2018, 06:15:24 AM »
The heliocentric solar system cannot be modeled. That is the entire basis of the n-body problem. The greatest minds in human history have tried and tried and failed and failed.

The reason it cannot be modeled is because of Chaos Theory. I have a Three Body Problem Chaos Theory demo in the article.

Newton's answer of divine intervention for this is a very important point. Newton is credited for bringing the laws of physics to the solar system.

http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/virtualmuseum/ita/05_1.shtml

Quote
Isaac Newton (1642-1727) who brought the laws of physics to the solar system. Isaac Newton explained why the planets move the way they do, by applying his laws of motion, and the force of gravitation between any two bodies, letting the force decrease with the square of the distance between the two bodies.

If this solar system of his does not work, and is, by his own words, based on divine intervention, then that is a fact that everyone should know.

Newton's physics of the solar system is "GOD DID IT!"
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 02:15:03 AM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2018, 07:06:51 AM »
Except that just a couple of paragraphs before you cite an article that gives thousands of stable solutions and as Gary has written ad nauseam that not having an analytical solution is not the same as not having any solution, nor is it the same as the solar system model, of which you have presented one in this very thread, doesn’t work. Just because Newton said something 300 hundred years ago, doesn’t mean that is the current state of affairs as well. Furthermore, Newton didn’t even say, “God did it!” He merely expressed his lack of knowledge of how it worked. He may have introduced some major physical laws, but that doesn’t mean he is meant to have all the answers.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2018, 04:06:57 AM »
The Heliocentric Theory is a very sensitive theory that simply does not work. See these quotes Sandokan provided:

As Poincare experimented, he was relieved to discover that in most of
the situations, the possible orbits varied only slightly from the initial
2-body orbit, and were still stable, but what occurred during further
experimentation was a shock. Poincare discovered that even in some of the
smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His
calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body
might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.

Here is Poincare describing his findings:

While Poincare did not succeed in giving a complete solution, his work was so impressive that he was awarded the prize anyway. The distinguished Weierstrass, who was one of the judges, said, 'this work cannot indeed be considered as furnishing the complete solution of the question proposed, but that it is nevertheless of such importance that its publication will inaugurate a new era in the history of celestial mechanics.' A lively account of this event is given in Newton's Clock: Chaos in the Solar System. To show how visionary Poincare was, it is perhaps best if he described the Hallmark of Chaos - sensitive dependence on initial conditions - in his own words:

'If we knew exactly the laws of nature and the situation of the universe at the initial moment, we could predict exactly the situation of that same universe at a succeeding moment. but even if it were the case that the natural laws had no longer any secret for us, we could still only know the initial situation approximately. If that enabled us to predict the succeeding situation with the same approximation, that is all we require, and we should say that the phenomenon had been predicted, that it is governed by laws. But it is not always so; it may happen that small differences in the initial conditions produce very great ones in the final phenomena. A small error in the former will produce an enormous error in the latter. Prediction becomes impossible, and we have the fortuitous phenomenon.' - in a 1903 essay 'Science and Method'

You can test it out for yourself in the simulation I provided in my article. The slightest change causes the system to fall apart. You see it first hand for yourself.

The 'thousands of stable solutions' are scenarios where the bodies have the same mass or where one of the bodies is mass-less. All of these scenarios are incredibly sensitive, and none represent anything that looks like a heliocentric system. They are crazy loopy orbits, based on situations that would not happen in nature, and which fall apart with the slightest breeze.

Newton couldn't figure out how to make his system work. The greatest mathematicians couldn't figure out how to make it work. Supercomputers could not provide the solution. The problems are insoluble. The heliocentric systems of Copernicus, Newton, and Kepler do not work. The current state of affairs is that it doesn't work at all. It is a fantasy.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 04:22:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2018, 05:23:54 AM »
There are two intractable problems with the 1,223 periodic solutions found by the team of Chinese mathematicians (no, not the fact that two of the three bodies have the same mass, or that they remain in the same plane).

The orbits will immediately exhibit homoclinic tangles at the slightest perturbation; that is, the orbital stability has not been tested/analyzed. The heliocentric planetary system features perturbations which are not slight; in fact, the perturbations in the solar system are far too large to apply KAM theory (which is valid for "sufficiently" small perturbations).

The second unsolvable problem concerns the fact that the initial conditions of the RE heliocentric planetary system are completely unknown: to show the importance and the dependence on the sensitivity of the initial conditions of the set of differential equations, an error as small as 15 meters in measuring the position of the Earth today would make it impossible to predict where the Earth would be in its orbit in just over 100 million years' time. A difference in the initial position of 1 cm grows to ∼1 AU (= 1.496 x 10^11 m) after 90–150 million years.

And the RE system of equations feature not three, but nine nonlinear ordinary differential equations.

The moral of the story is this: the RE heliocentric planetary orbits of motion cannot be described at all by the theory of nonlinear ordinary differential equations.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 05:27:25 AM by sandokhan »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2018, 09:21:43 AM »
3 body problem is completely unrelated to the heliocentric model.
And sure, we can't calculate precise orbits without precise measurements.
We can easily make the simulation though. Nothing wrong with the heliocentric model.

BillO

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2018, 02:39:46 PM »
Newton couldn't figure out how to make his system work. The greatest mathematicians couldn't figure out how to make it work. Supercomputers could not provide the solution. The problems are insoluble. The heliocentric systems of Copernicus, Newton, and Kepler do not work. The current state of affairs is that it doesn't work at all. It is a fantasy.
Is your issue with the model, or with the idea that things can orbit at all?

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2018, 03:44:46 PM »
No, Tom thinks that because there are no analytical solutions to the three-body problem that the heliocentric solar system is not a viable model. Despite having it explained to him numerous times, he still does not understand, or refuses to admit, that this is not a failure of the model but rather an inherent limitation of the math used to solve such problems.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2018, 05:21:57 PM »
This has nothing to do with the analytical solution in specific.

The analytical solution is the ability to predict where bodies will be based on starting parameters, which is admitted to be impossible.

The numerical solution is essentially the ability to model or simulate where bodies will be, by accounting for the gravitational influences of the bodies at small incremental time steps.

In such simulations the orbits of three bodies with unequal masses will fly apart, and  the available solutions to the numerical three body problem assume unrealistic scenarios-- such as the Restricted Three Body Problem, which assumes that one of the bodies is mass-less.

From a Celestial Mechanics university course we read the following at http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/celestial/Celestial/node79.html

Quote
Three Body Problem

What about a system containing three gravitationally interacting point masses? Despite hundreds of years of research, no useful general solution of this famous problem--which is usually called the three-body problem--has ever been found. It is, however, possible to make some progress by severely restricting the problem's scope.

The following pages show what is meant by "restricting the problem's scope." If we assume that bodies are massless, or that bodies have identical masses, then sure, a "stable orbit" can be created (a 'stable orbit' that look nothing like a heliocentric orbit, mind you). These are unrealistic scenarios in astronomy, but it is the best that can be done to study the matter of basic orbits.

As Poincare discovered, and as was communicated in Sandokan's quote, any slight inequality causes the entire thing to fall apart.

The field of Celestial Mechanics is not even in its infancy. The field of Celestial Maechanics has shown that the basic ideas are invalid and the heliocentric solar system does not even work at all.

Despite having it explained to him numerous times, he still does not understand, or refuses to admit, that this is not a failure of the model but rather an inherent limitation of the math used to solve such problems.

The "limitation of the math" means that they cannot predict where bodies will be in the solar system.

The "limitations of the math" also means that they cannot even simulate a stable system  without assuming unrealistic scenarios.

"Limitations of the math" is an admission of defeat! The system cannot be modeled or predicted.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 05:39:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2018, 05:47:49 PM »
As has been pointed out to you ad nauseam, n-body problems are routinely solved numerically. Analytically there is no way, currently to get a 100% accurate answer. The solar system has been modeled and even with the limitations of the three-body problem, scientists and mathematicians can get to greater than 99% accuracy. The remaining amount is filled in with constant observation. The model works.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 05:56:29 PM by Rama Set »

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2018, 06:09:55 PM »
As has been pointed out to you ad nauseam, n-body problems are routinely solved numerically. Analytically there is no way, currently to get a 100% accurate answer. The solar system has been modeled and even with the limitations of the three-body problem, scientists and mathematicians can get to greater than 99% accuracy. The remaining amount is filled in with constant observation. The model works.
This explains it well.


Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2018, 06:36:49 PM »
Orbital equations of motion = theory of nonlinear ordinary differential equations

The model works.

Let's see what the experts in the field have to say.

“Kolmogorov (1954) made the momentous discovery that catastrophes in planetary systems
are all too likely when he found that the minor terms in Newcomb’s series used to
solve the n-body problem for planetary motion in Newtonian mechanics were, in
fact, easily subject to random, unpredictable perturbations which could quickly lead
to turbulence; cf. Arnol’d (1997). In the meantime, the buzzword ‘chaos’ is applied
to such turbulence – also called ‘catastrophe,’ to the dismay of Shapley and many
other astronomers sharing Newton’s dream of an eternally stable solar system . . .
Subsequently, in the later fifties, Siegel & Moser (1971) and Moser (1973) further
extended mathematical knowledge of divergent [orbits of planets], Newcomb
series.

That ‘deterministic’ systems, like those obeying Newtonian mechanics, should
be subject to unpredictable catastrophes came as a real shock.

Next came pioneering computer simulations of planetary – system evolution
by Hills (1969). Wisdom (1981), finding even more advanced numerical methods
and using faster computers, achieved the breakthrough of repeatedly observing
chaos (or catastrophes) in computer-simulated planetary orbits, splendidly
confirming Kolmogorov and putting the dream of Newton  in an absolutely stable
and orderly cosmos to rest in a way most astronomers could not have previously
imagined. All experts now agree that even apparently stable [planetary] orbits will
occasionally experience unpredictable chaotic disturbances.”

E. Köhler, Induction and Deduction in Science

 “these [stability] models neglect solar mass loss and the effect of passing
stars . . . [whose perturbations] should shorten the lifetimes of the systems [change to instability]
by several orders of magnitude.”

J. J. Lissaur, Q. N. C. Lin, “Diversity of Planetary Systems and Unsolved Problems,” From Extrasolar
Planets to Cosmology: V. L. T. Opening Symposium

“Instead of using full equations of motion, Laskar focused on a special
formulation that spotlights gradual but cumulative changes in an orbit’s shape
[eccentricity] and orientation [inclination]. He worked with equations that smooth
out the recurring wiggles and wobbles in planetary orbits leaving only long term
trends . . .

“By applying a similar strategy to celestial curves [eccentricities], Laskar could
isolate these [non-gravitational] parts of a planet’s motion that correspond to lasting
changes in key characteristics of its orbit.”

Ivars Peterson, Newton’s Clock

“This differential system is a close approximation to the real solar system, and in
particular, the inner solar system . . . but the exact meaning of ‘close’ is still difficult to evaluate.”

J. Laskar

When one employs non-gravitational theory instead of “full equations of motion” to prove
stability, one has removed the solution of the problem from reality. But even believing in these
non-gravitational equations, Laskar cannot tell what a “close approximation” is. It is a theoretical
construct that comes out of non-gravitational math.

C. Ginenthal

Repeatedly the eccentricities and inclination of the positions of the orbits of the planets
in the solar system are relied on to determine whether or not there was stability in the past or
stability in the future. Because this tool, that is not based strictly on gravitational theory using
only masses and their separations, is the basis for all reckoning of stability, it is essentially a great
fudge factor that has been swallowed hook, line and sinker by astronomers, never noticing the
distinction between their heuristic mathematics and the underlying forces that should have been
employed in the first place.

C. Ginenthal

“Efforts to settle the question of the solar system’s stability face a serious,
perhaps insurmountable obstacle. As Scott Tremain has remarked: ‘In some sense,
you end up having to deal with probabilities. You can never rule anything out
completely. Even if a [planetary] system is well behaved, there’s always a small
chance of its wandering by some narrow path to just about any configuration.’ In
other words, with a mathematical model that automatically incorporates chaotic
behavior, there’s no way to prove, with absolute certainty, that something can’t ever
happen.”

Ivars Peterson, Newton’s Clock

“From a physical point of view, this model [of the solar system] is obviously
hard to accept, but cannot escape these conclusions, if one idealizes the problem
mathematically . . . In fact, the [mathematical] idealization goes further: We are not
talking about the motions of planets under realistic forces, but of the n-body
problem taking into account only Newton’s force laws and referring to mass points
with some smallness restriction on masses.”

Jurgen Moser (one of the giants in the field, proved the exceedingly difficult KAM theory)

J. Moser, “Stability in Celestial Mechanics,” The Stability of the Solar System and of Small Stellar
Systems Symposium

“The word ‘chaotic’ summarizes many fundamental concepts characterizing
a dynamical system such as complex predictability and stability. But above
all, it acts as a warming of the difficulties which are likely to arise when trying to
obtain a reliable picture of its past and future evolution. As an example, a
commonly accepted definition states that a system is ‘unstable’ if the trajectories of
two points that initially are arbitrarily close . . . diverge quickly in time. This has
strong implications, as small uncertainties in initial conditions . . . might [also] be
consistent with completely different future trajectories: The conclusion is that we
can exactly reproduce the motion of a chaotic system only if WE KNOW, WITH
ABSOLUTE PRECISION, THE INITIAL CONDITIONS – A STATEMENT
THAT, IN PRACTICE, CAN NEVER BE TRUE."


Alessandra Celletti, Ettore Perozzi, Celestial Mechanics: The Waltz of the Planets

Sussman and Wisdom's 1992 integration of the entire solar system displayed a disturbing dependence on the timestep of the integration (measurement of the Lyapunov time).

Thus, different researchers who draw their initial conditions from the same ephemeris at different times can find vastly different Lyapunov timescales.

Wayne Hayes, UC Irvine

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2018, 06:43:22 PM »
No one solved the n-body problem

Where is the Nobel Prize?

Just as the author of that video above says, the attempt to simulate the solar system, or predict it, was an utter failure in the history of science, so they gave up and instead are looking at the special perturbations of the bodies in the heavens (which the heliocentric fantasy is now calling "due to gravity").

This is the method of prediction that the Ancient Babylonians used: Patterns in the Sky.

Statistics... interpolation.. curve fitting.. "of chaos," etc.

They are inferring things about the patterns of the planets in the sky to determine whether they are stable or unstable, and to predict where they will go. They entirely gave up on the n-body problem. They admitted defeat!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 05:00:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2018, 06:55:35 PM »
Words to the effect of they are now merely looking at perturbations are given in the video.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perturbation_(astronomy)

Special Perturbations

In methods of special perturbations, numerical datasets, representing values for the positions, velocities and accelerative forces on the bodies of interest, are made the basis of numerical integration of the differential equations of motion.[6] In effect, the positions and velocities are perturbed directly, and no attempt is made to calculate the curves of the orbits or the orbital elements.[2] Special perturbations can be applied to any problem in celestial mechanics, as it is not limited to cases where the perturbing forces are small.[4] Once applied only to comets and minor planets, special perturbation methods are now the basis of the most accurate machine-generated planetary ephemerides of the great astronomical almanacs.[2][7] Special perturbations are also used for modeling an orbit with computers.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 07:01:42 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2018, 07:02:14 PM »
That’s actually not what was said in the video Edby posted at all. It was stated quite clearly that our model of the solar system is accurate and runs how we have modeled it until you get 100,000,000s of years in to the future when something like the butterfly effect starts to be relevant. As such the model can only be expressed in statistical terms and that the solar system is 99% likely to be stable.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2018, 07:14:44 PM »
That’s actually not what was said in the video Edby posted at all. It was stated quite clearly that our model of the solar system is accurate and runs how we have modeled it until you get 100,000,000s of years in to the future when something like the butterfly effect starts to be relevant. As such the model can only be expressed in statistical terms and that the solar system is 99% likely to be stable.

I watched the video. Where does he say that the n-body problem was solved?

After a history of the utter failure of science he does use the word perturbations at some point and starts saying they switched over to "following the paths" (let me help you: IN THE SKY) to see that the solar system is stable, and are using various methods to determine if there is chaotic activity that will tear the system apart.

Total fantasy. If you disbelieve, where is the flipping Nobel Prize for solving the greatest unsolved issue in science?

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2018, 07:17:50 PM »
As has been stated to you, and as he said in the video, they didn’t solve it analytically but numerically. Using the initial conditions and laws of motion. It’s been said to you enough that there currently is no analytical solution but numerical solutions are trivial and commonplace. Do you understand?

FYI Nobel prizes are not good metrics. Einstein didn’t get one for his most popular contribution: Relativity.

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2018, 07:28:19 PM »
Henri Poincare won a big prize for showing that the the basic orbits made by bodies are unstable, fragile, and are easily turned chaotic at a whiff.

This is not merely about trying to find an analytic or numeric solution. The basic orbits of the bodies is fragile, unstable, and unable to be modeled.

The author of the video admits as much, and transitions into them now following the paths (in the sky) and looking at chaos. The Solar System can't be modeled with orbital elements.

The above quote I gave shows that the astronomical almanacs are using special perturbations, which do not use orbital elements, and this is what the person in the video is talking about. None of it is based on the heliocentric model of orbits and gravity.

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2018, 07:48:54 PM »
This explains it well.

It does not, on the contrary.

Scott Tremaine's arguments rest totally on Jacques Laskar's numerical simulations.