[stack]

4. Plotting on our maps:
PER Perth --> DOH Hamad International --> GRU Sao Paulo --> AEP Buenos Aires

The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.



Here's what it looks like on a globe. Pretty much a match, wouldn't you say?



Why do you have the flight from Qatar to Sao Paulo arcing way up over Spain? Here's the actual route:



Again, pretty much a 1-1 match on a globe. Go figure...



Do you know what a map projection is?

The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.

How is that a valid point for, well, anything? You are arguing that there isn't a direct flight between two cities. So what? Are there direct flights between all cities on the planet?

[jomples]

I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.

Makes sense, thank you for clarifying your argument. Let it be known that we've explained the reasoning behind the lack of direct flights between these places- it's the same reason there won't always be a direct train line connecting two nearby stops. Doesn't make sense to run the tracks if nobody's going to use it. This is doubly true for planes, because they cost a lot more per flight than a train does. Airlines operate flights on fairly thin profit margins, if seats aren't getting filled, the route will be canceled.

I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.

I believe you're aware that these are multistage flights. stack's just shown that your routes aren't quite optimized, but you haven't responded to that as far as I'm aware. Additionally, I did find a shorter route for Auckland to Cape Town that corresponds quite nicely to the Globe Earth, but I'm not sure you saw that. And again, there's a reason that route is circuitous, and it's not because it costs the airlines more.

The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.

We've told you- I've told you- a perfectly suitable explanation for why a direct flight doesn't exist- you dismissed it. Please address it. You are not the moderator of this debate, you're a participant. You've been told why airlines don't fly those routes, and crucially you've been shown routes similar to the ones you proposed which do exist and can be booked- and you dismissed them.

If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.

A touch of disjointed reasoning. You've explained your argument a bit better now, and thanks for that. But please refrain from blind attacks. Or whatever. I'm not a mod, it's not my place to police your behavior.

You talk of blind belief, but then you repeat a single talking point regardless of what others bring up. Yes, these flights take odd routes, because they're odd flights to take. Book a private jet if you want to fly directly from Perth to Buenos Aires, because practically nobody else will. Those few travelers from Perth who do go will hop on a plane to DOH Hamad International, with hundreds of other travelers who are going to Cairo, and Athens. Then they'll fly to to Sao Paolo with hundreds of other passengers who are going to Sao Paolo or Bogota, and came from Bali, and Sydney. And then they'll take a little bunny hop to their final destination. Routes don't exist to get you where you want to go ASAP, they exist to fill seats. That's how they should behave, in any world.

[jomples]

The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.

Funny thing, that, he drew them that way to be straight on a flat Earth. Just saying.

[PraiseGOD]

The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.

Funny thing, that, he drew them that way to be straight on a flat Earth. Just saying.

Ahh very good that you understand that.

[Gonzo]

So let’s get something straight… you come and pick two routes you know don’t have direct flights, in order to make your argument work. But you know it doesn’t, so then you falsify the routes the non-direct flights take, in an attempt to shore up that argument?

Nice.

I’ll ask again, why not start from an actual flight route that’s followed by actual flights?

[AATW]

If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.

I understand what you've done, it's just that it's meaningless. Multiple people have explained why it is.
You picked two cities which are a long way apart on a FE map, found there are no direct flights between them and decided that is evidence for a FE.
It is not and it has been explained to you why it isn't.

There are two train stations near me. I just looked up a route between them on a route planner and it's an hour's journey by train including 2 stops.
You could walk between those stations in 10 minutes. Aha! It must be a great conspiracy!
Except no, obviously not. The stations are on different lines, to get between them you need to go along one line, change a couple of times and then back on the other. The lack of a direct train line between those two stations doesn't prove anything other than that's how they built those train lines.

Now obviously planes are a bit different, they can in theory go between any 2 points. BUT there are practical considerations for airlines - they have to consider demand for particular routes, fuel efficiency, political considerations in terms of airspace, distance to the nearest airport in case of an emergency. Not every airport can handle every aircraft because of runway length. There are lots of factors which go in to route planning for airlines.

I said this above and you ignored it - where there IS a direct flight between two cities you can use data from those flights to investigate the distances between places and whether they match better with a FE or Globe model. Where there is no direct flight it doesn't prove much of anything other than there obviously isn't enough demand for one. And I'm sorry that the pandemic means that you can't currently book a flight between Santiago and Sydney, I picked one account of one, I'm sure you can find others. And hopefully that route will resume at some point in the next year or two and you can then experience it for yourself if you're really serious about investigating this.

[SteelyBob]

I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.

But we've shown that a) the lack of direct flights between two points doesn't necessarily mean a great deal and b) there have been very similar direct flights, such as Sydney - Santiago, in the past. You then went off into conspiracy territory, and then I pointed out that the very same route has been used on this website as evidence for a FE. You haven't addressed this point at all, but everybody reading this can see it.

I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.

I'm not really clear what you mean by this - what do you mean by 'shortest flights available travel the longest way possible'?

The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.

Why is this the standard of proof you demand? Is the fact that Covid has completely trashed flight schedules not credible? Is the abundance of evidence that, for example, Sydney - Santiago flights have happened not enough for you?

If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.

There are hundreds of flights you could look at if you were genuinely interested in this stuff. Take flights across Australia. You can book flights between Brisbane and Perth, for example. The great circle distance on the globe is around 2000nm, which is about 2300 miles or 3700Km. It takes around 4:50 hours or 5:20 hours, depending on which way you fly. If you take the dimensions of the monopole FE map as given in the wiki, then the east-west distance across Australia would be roughly 2.5 times as great as it is on the globe, so around 5000nm. So in order to do that flight in around 5 hours, airliners would have to make a ground speed of around 1000 knots, or around 1150mph, which is roughly twice as fast as subsonic airliners can travel. And no, you can't claim 'anomalous winds', because they do it in both directions, at the same time.

Even if you wish to cling on to a FE argument, how can you look at data like that and believe the monopole FE map to be correct?

[DuncanDoenitz]

A video of a flight from Santiago to Sydney taken by a flat earther, wielding a compass he clearly doesn't understand, is linked to in the wiki as evidence of the earth being flat.

Ha. Nice.
It is interesting how this conversation has gone. It starts with a FE person demanding we look in to flight routes between two pairs of specific cities. When it’s patiently explained that there aren’t direct flights between any two arbitrary cities because of demand and hub-spoke models the FE person says he picked those pairs of cities because of the distance. He then challenges us to find a pair of cities further apart and when that’s done and a video review of someone taking that flight is provided it’s simply implied that could be fake. The logic contradictions and goalpost shifting are bewildering

I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.

I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.

The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.

If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.

No response to my Reply#36?  I presented a 15000km flight from Buenos Aires to Darwin, which trumps your 12500km.  A flight which actually occurred, non-stop, in 2021, by an Antarctic route. 

What, can't book it?  Perhaps if you're not interested in other peoples answers you may be asking the wrong question. 

[stack]

I'm pretty sure you won't get a reply as this seems to be just a troll attempt considering the weakness of the argument:

- "There's no non-stop flight between City A and City B, the world must be a cube!"

It's basically the Mark Sargent argument from like 2015 that has been dismantled 100's of times. There are far better arguments to be had, this one is basically in the kindergarten realm of FE stuff.

[jomples]

The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.

Funny thing, that, he drew them that way to be straight on a flat Earth. Just saying.

Ahh very good that you understand that.

Just wanted to reply- I was off yesterday on a trip to the zoo. The fact you drew them this way reflects a problem which a lot of Flat Earthers and Round Earthers have. This is confirmation bias. The fact is, the flights don't take the routes that would make more sense on a flat earth. Like stack said, their routes make more sense on a round earth. The overall routes for these flights do make a fair bit of sense in a flat world because they seem to take a fairly direct route, and I'll concede that. But in a round world they also make sense, because of the economics of the airline business.

You have achoice when you encounter information that doesn't conform with your world view. You can discard, ignore, or reshape it until your worldview is untouched. That's not a sound method. Or, you can examine it to find out why it works that way. Everything is more than skin deep.

[Edit: I had a section here addressing an argument I misremembered as being part of this thread. I've reposted in the correct channel]

[diegoxx]

It is curious to me how you only mention those two non-stop flights, but you Ignore all the others with stopovers that refute terraplanning.

I was reading and Norwegian Air Argentina applied for and got approval to fly from Buenos Aires to Perth (direct non-stop). This flight would have Antarctica as a route.

However the Norwegian Air Argentina planes were stored in 2020 after the consequences of the Pandemic, and as of today (2023) they are still not operating (at least, so far).

There are many long-haul non-stop flight routes between different continents in the southern hemisphere, without crossing the northern hemisphere. These routes are only possible if the Earth is a sphere, and impossible if the Earth is flat.

Sydney, Australia - Johannesburg, South Africa

Sydney, Australia - Santiago, Chile

Perth, Australia - Johannesburg, South Africa

Auckland, New Zealand - Santiago, Chile

Auckland, New Zealand - Buenos Aires, Argentina

Melbourne, Australia - Santiago, Chile

Sydney, Australia - Buenos Aires, Argentina (route no longer operational)

Johannesburg, South Africa - São Paulo, Brazil

Luanda, Angola - São Paulo, Brazil

We can easily check the existence of these flight routes using any travel booking website.

What happens, is that terraplanists like you who only rely on 2 flights but Ignore the 9 that I mentioned, shows that you rely on the so called "fallacy of incomplete evidence" also called "cherry picking".

This fallacy is committed when you point to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position.

[stack]

Here are a couple from the list. Comparing GE to FE using Google Globe & Mercator projections and the two most common FE "maps" I've seen, the North Pole Centered Lambert Azimuthal Equidistant & Bi-Polar Lambert azimuthal equal-area.



The reasons I've seen from some FEr's are:

- The flights are fake, don't exist
- One from the other site, same as above but with a twist - In order to cull the homeless populations, airlines load them on to these fake flights, fly out over the ocean a bit, flight attendants shove the homeless out the cabin door, then turn around and head back to the origination airport
- The GE maps are wrong/fake in terms of the paths allegedly taken
- The distances are wrong/fake

Interesting to note as well, the two common FE "maps", the North Pole Centered Lambert Azimuthal Equidistant & Bi-Polar Lambert azimuthal equal-area, are actually projections from a globe. I'm not sure how FE reconciles this.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Interesting and topical, don't think I've noticed this before; Latam's 800/801 outbound/inbound Dreamliners between Santiago and Auckland are both airborne at the same time (registration CC-BGD westbound as LAN801, CC-BGB LAN800 eastbound).  Google Maps shows the Great Circle route reaches a maximum declination of around 53deg S; one flight is currently at 47deg S, the other at 54deg S. 

Presumably one of them is benefitting from Tom's winds. 

(Not sure if the other is full of hapless hobos on a one-way ticket to Palookaville).   

[VerraNox]

Its not easy to fly over antarcticaa you know.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Its not easy to fly over antarcticaa you know.

Why?

[markjo]

Its not easy to fly over antarcticaa you know.

Why?

Mostly because there really isn't much need to do so.  There just aren't that many great circle routes between destinations in the southern hemisphere to justify the extra cold weather precautions that would be required on such flights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_route#Operational_considerations