Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #180 on: May 10, 2020, 09:56:10 PM »


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And that's observed to be constant. So we're all agreed that there is no problem with UA, then?

No it contradicts UA.  If the earth was accelerating it wouldn’t be consistent.

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Why are you explaining this? Nobody asked for an explanation of how the experiment works. Indeed, I would hope that all involved understand it by this point.

You may understand how it works but you don’t understand the significance of the results



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Yet again you are making this claim with zero justification. How many times do I need to ask why?

And yet again I have to explain because that is how relative velocities work.  Logic doesn’t need to be justified. If the proper velocities of moving objects change, then so do their relative velocities.  That’s either a valid conclusion or it’s not.  Perhaps you can explain why you think it is not a valid conclusion.

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Only if you make an assumption about the relative velocity of the muons today and the muons a week from now. You keep insisting that you are making no such assumption, and therefore UA does not present a problem for this experiment.

No assumptions necessary because the velocity of muons has been directly measured and it is consistently measured at .98c.  If the earth were accelerating that wouldn’t be the case.

Why do you think otherwise?

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #181 on: May 10, 2020, 10:15:55 PM »
No it contradicts UA.  If the earth was accelerating it wouldn’t be consistent.

I am just going to start typing "why?" every time you say this. It's going to save me some RSI.

You may understand how it works but you don’t understand the significance of the results

It is very difficult to understand when you don't explain yourself.

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Yet again you are making this claim with zero justification. How many times do I need to ask why?

And yet again I have to explain because that is how relative velocities work.  Logic doesn’t need to be justified. If the proper velocities of moving objects change, then so do their relative velocities.  That’s either a valid conclusion or it’s not.  Perhaps you can explain why you think it is not a valid conclusion.

No, that's a diversion because that is not our point of contention. The point of contention is whether this scenario is applicable to the muon experiment.

Why don't we try this instead. Please identify, specifically, the two objects that you claim change relative velocity over the course of, say, a week, as it applies to the muon experiment.

No assumptions necessary because the velocity of muons has been directly measured and it is consistently measured at .98c.

I agree. Indeed, this is my entire position.

If the earth were accelerating that wouldn’t be the case.

Why do you think otherwise?

Because we observe otherwise. My conclusion is based directly on scientific observations, while yours is based on something that you are refusing to state for some reason.
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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2020, 02:05:26 AM »
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Why don't we try this instead. Please identify, specifically, the two objects that you claim change relative velocity over the course of, say, a week, as it applies to the muon experiment.

The relative velocity between the earth and muons cascading at time "X" and the relative velocity between the earth and the muons cascading at time "Y". 

The relative velocity between muons and the earth is always .98c range, as evidenced by how many muons survive. It doesn't change between time "X" and time "Y". Basic logic tells us that if relative velocity doesn't change, then the proper velocities have not changed.   What does that tell you about earth's velocity?

[/quote]It is very difficult to understand when you don't explain yourself.
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I did explain myself.  The calculations on that page clearly show that as the relative velocity between the earth and muons increase, the number of muons surviving to reach earth increases.  We don't see this.  From this we can conclude that the relative velocity between the earth and muons is not increasing and if that is the case, the proper velocities of the earth and muons are not changing. If the proper velocity of earth is not changing, its not accelerating.   



« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 02:26:10 AM by pricelesspearl »

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2020, 09:55:34 AM »
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Why don't we try this instead. Please identify, specifically, the two objects that you claim change relative velocity over the course of, say, a week, as it applies to the muon experiment.

The relative velocity between the earth and muons cascading at time "X" and the relative velocity between the earth and the muons cascading at time "Y".

Nope, you've identified more than two objects there. That's not what I asked for.

Please either identify two specific objects whose relative velocities change, or concede that we are talking about more than two objects.
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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #184 on: May 11, 2020, 11:37:31 AM »
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Nope, you've identified more than two objects there. That's not what I asked for.

Please either identify two specific objects whose relative velocities change, or concede that we are talking about more than two objects.

I am talking about the relative velocity between two objects at two separate times. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.


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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #185 on: May 11, 2020, 01:38:38 PM »
I am talking about the relative velocity between two objects at two separate times. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm not talking about anything. I am just asking you to identify for me what those two objects are. Your first attempt at responding to this involved identifying the Earth and "muons", plural. More than one muon plus the Earth is at least three objects.
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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #186 on: May 11, 2020, 02:20:35 PM »
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I'm not talking about anything. I am just asking you to identify for me what those two objects are. Your first attempt at responding to this involved identifying the Earth and "muons", plural. More than one muon plus the Earth is at least three objects.

I did identify them. RV between the earth and muons that are cascading at time X (plural because there are millions cascading any given moment) at time x, and the earth and the muons that are cascading at time Y.

The RV between the earth and "the cascade of muons" at time X and the "cascade of muons" of muons at time "Y", if that makes it easier for you.  But it doesn't really matter...the RV between the earth and one single muon at time X and one single muon at time Y, the same principle applies.  If the RV between doesn't change between time X and Y...proper velocities haven't changed, therefore the earth isn't accelerating.

You seem to think that the RV between muons has some bearing on this. I don't believe it does, can you explain why you think otherwise"

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #187 on: May 11, 2020, 03:10:44 PM »
But it doesn't really matter...the RV between the earth and one single muon at time X and one single muon at time Y, the same principle applies.

No it does not.

Suppose you are driving your car on a road. In front of you is a blue car travelling at 70 km/h, and in front of that one is a red car travelling at 90 km/h. You overtake the blue car at 80 km/h, and relative to you, it is moving backwards at 10 km/h. You then accelerate to 100 km/h and pass the red car, which is now moving backwards at 10 km/h relative to you.

Is it reasonable to assume that you were actually moving at the same speed the whole time just because you passed two other cars at the same relative speed?
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Offline BRrollin

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #188 on: May 11, 2020, 03:15:54 PM »
But it doesn't really matter...the RV between the earth and one single muon at time X and one single muon at time Y, the same principle applies.

No it does not.

Suppose you are driving your car on a road. In front of you is a blue car travelling at 70 km/h, and in front of that one is a red car travelling at 90 km/h. You overtake the blue car at 80 km/h, and relative to you, it is moving backwards at 10 km/h. You then accelerate to 100 km/h and pass the red car, which is now moving backwards at 10 km/h relative to you.

Is it reasonable to assume that you were actually moving at the same speed the whole time just because you passed two other cars at the same relative speed?

That’s a fair point.

So in RE, the muons could be accelerating in between being created and reaching the Earth, and so this could hide many aspects of the motion in between.

I agree with that. Is there any evidence that the muons DO accelerate, if you are indeed making this claim?
“This just shows that you don't even understand the basic principle of UA...A projectile that goes up and then down again to an observer on Earth is not accelerating, it is the observer on Earth who accelerates.”

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Groit

Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #189 on: May 11, 2020, 04:20:54 PM »
Suppose you are driving your car on a road. In front of you is a blue car travelling at 70 km/h, and in front of that one is a red car travelling at 90 km/h. You overtake the blue car at 80 km/h, and relative to you, it is moving backwards at 10 km/h. You then accelerate to 100 km/h and pass the red car, which is now moving backwards at 10 km/h relative to you.

Is it reasonable to assume that you were actually moving at the same speed the whole time just because you passed two other cars at the same relative speed?

Those cars are all moving in the same direction, the Earth and the muons are travelling towards each other.

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #190 on: May 11, 2020, 04:43:36 PM »
Those cars are all moving in the same direction, the Earth and the muons are travelling towards each other.

In which frame of reference?
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Groit

Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #191 on: May 11, 2020, 04:57:42 PM »
Those cars are all moving in the same direction, the Earth and the muons are travelling towards each other.

In which frame of reference?

Ok, so you are saying that the Earth is accelerating and overtaking cosmic rays that are travelling in the same direction?

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #192 on: May 11, 2020, 06:43:41 PM »
Ok, so you are saying that the Earth is accelerating and overtaking cosmic rays that are travelling in the same direction?

I'm saying that it depends on your frame of reference. Two objects moving at 10 m s-1 relative to each other are moving in the same direction at 5 m s-1 and 15 m s-1 from one possible frame of reference, in opposite directions at 5 m s-1 from another frame of reference, and at 5 m s-1 and 15 m s-1 in the same direction (but the opposite direction to the first case) from yet another.

There is no such thing as absolute velocity, only relative velocity. This is a fundamental concept in both Newtonian and Einsteinian mechanics.
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Offline BRrollin

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #193 on: May 11, 2020, 06:57:12 PM »
Ok, so you are saying that the Earth is accelerating and overtaking cosmic rays that are travelling in the same direction?

I'm saying that it depends on your frame of reference. Two objects moving at 10 m s-1 relative to each other are moving in the same direction at 5 m s-1 and 15 m s-1 from one possible frame of reference, in opposite directions at 5 m s-1 from another frame of reference, and at 5 m s-1 and 15 m s-1 in the same direction (but the opposite direction to the first case) from yet another.

There is no such thing as absolute velocity, only relative velocity. This is a fundamental concept in both Newtonian and Einsteinian mechanics.

Then it is probably critical for a proper consideration by REers to understand what reference frame UA is relative to.

What is the 9.8 acceleration relative to?
“This just shows that you don't even understand the basic principle of UA...A projectile that goes up and then down again to an observer on Earth is not accelerating, it is the observer on Earth who accelerates.”

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #194 on: May 11, 2020, 07:31:42 PM »
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No it does not.

Suppose you are driving your car on a road. In front of you is a blue car travelling at 70 km/h, and in front of that one is a red car travelling at 90 km/h. You overtake the blue car at 80 km/h, and relative to you, it is moving backwards at 10 km/h. You then accelerate to 100 km/h and pass the red car, which is now moving backwards at 10 km/h relative to you.

Is it reasonable to assume that you were actually moving at the same speed the whole time just because you passed two other cars at the same relative speed?

If you predict how long it would take you to overtake the cars without taking acceleration into account and that prediction turned out to be right…then yes, it would be a reasonable assumption.

If muons accelerate, the time dilation calculations that assume they don’t accelerate, wouldn’t be able to accurately predict how many survive to reach Earth’s surface.  But the calculations do accurately predict, indicating muons do not accelerate.

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What is the 9.8 acceleration relative to?

Oy...here we go again.   ::)

Acceleration is not relative.  As an FE proponent...how do you know that the earth is accelerating?  and how do you know how fast it is accelerating?

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #195 on: May 11, 2020, 08:01:18 PM »
If you predict how long it would take you to overtake the cars without taking acceleration into account and that prediction turned out to be right…then yes, it would be a reasonable assumption.

If muons accelerate, the time dilation calculations that assume they don’t accelerate, wouldn’t be able to accurately predict how many survive to reach Earth’s surface.  But the calculations do accurately predict, indicating muons do not accelerate.

I notice you completely avoided answering the question. Well done.
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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #196 on: May 11, 2020, 10:59:07 PM »
If you predict how long it would take you to overtake the cars without taking acceleration into account and that prediction turned out to be right…then yes, it would be a reasonable assumption.

If muons accelerate, the time dilation calculations that assume they don’t accelerate, wouldn’t be able to accurately predict how many survive to reach Earth’s surface.  But the calculations do accurately predict, indicating muons do not accelerate.

I notice you completely avoided answering the question. Well done.

I didn’t avoid.  I answered that under certain circumstances it would be reasonable to assume your hypothetical car was maintained a constant speed.

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #197 on: May 11, 2020, 11:43:42 PM »
I didn’t avoid.  I answered that under certain circumstances it would be reasonable to assume your hypothetical car was maintained a constant speed.

The circumstances were given in the hypothetical. You chose to ignore the hypothetical and provide an answer to a different question. You did not answer the question I asked.
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Groit

Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #198 on: May 12, 2020, 08:10:47 AM »
Ok, so you are saying that the Earth is accelerating and overtaking cosmic rays that are travelling in the same direction?

I'm saying that it depends on your frame of reference. Two objects moving at 10 m s-1 relative to each other are moving in the same direction at 5 m s-1 and 15 m s-1 from one possible frame of reference, in opposite directions at 5 m s-1 from another frame of reference, and at 5 m s-1 and 15 m s-1 in the same direction (but the opposite direction to the first case) from yet another.

There is no such thing as absolute velocity, only relative velocity. This is a fundamental concept in both Newtonian and Einsteinian mechanics.

Don't forget that cosmic rays travel in all directions, there will be some of them travelling towards the accelerating Earth as well as those in the opposite direction. how would we measure the relative velocities?

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Offline xasop

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Re: The Math for universal Acceleration IS INCORRECT
« Reply #199 on: May 12, 2020, 10:51:43 AM »
Don't forget that cosmic rays travel in all directions, there will be some of them travelling towards the accelerating Earth as well as those in the opposite direction. how would we measure the relative velocities?

What?
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