[Rushy]

I don't think that you can say it is a false interpretation of free will based on the fact that there are a multitude of interpretations of free will and they all claim to be correct.
I am getting at the idea that if my actions are determined by decisions made by the thoughts I experience in my head, and I have no control over these thoughts, I therefor have no control over the actions I commit. This is why I don't believe in free will.

If you truly feel that you have absolutely no control over the thoughts in your own mind then I highly suggest seeing a psychiatrist. While all humans have intrusive thoughts that they cannot control, to have nothing but intrusive thoughts is a symptom of various disorders.

[Imheretoo]

I don't think that you can say it is a false interpretation of free will based on the fact that there are a multitude of interpretations of free will and they all claim to be correct.
I am getting at the idea that if my actions are determined by decisions made by the thoughts I experience in my head, and I have no control over these thoughts, I therefor have no control over the actions I commit. This is why I don't believe in free will.

If you truly feel that you have absolutely no control over the thoughts in your own mind then I highly suggest seeing a psychiatrist. While all humans have intrusive thoughts that they cannot control, to have nothing but intrusive thoughts is a symptom of various disorders.

Abnormal psychology is extremely different from mindfulness. I defined control as an ability to direct them. I have not yet been able to find a me that is separate from my thoughts and can thus direct them. This is why I say that "I" do not have "control" over my thoughts. Do you agree with my reasoning?

[Dr David Thork]

These are behaviors that domestic animals are more likely to exhibit than wild ones. It would be impossible for us to know this if they were unpredictable. Also, have you ever made a stupid decision on purpose? Probably not, because it would be stupid. Every decision you make is made based on reasoning and the smartest decision you could come up with is made. This fits very nicely into determinism.

No. Sometimes I make decisions based on impulse ... like eating a bag of crisps. I don't need to eat the crisps. I know they aren't good for me. I choose to eat them cos they taste nice. Sometimes I make decisions based on lust. These are always terrible decisions. Like telling a client I have the hots for them or asking my sister if she wants to share a bath. The sensible thing would be to choose NOT to do that. Sometimes I choose to sleep in when I should be working. Sometimes I choose to not clean my room when it is dirty and I'm doing nothing else. Sometimes I choose to just stare into space and do absolutely nothing when anything else would be more productive. Sometimes I choose to tell a lie in my posts on TFES. Can you spot the lie in this post? I did it because I can. Because it amused me. It might not amuse you. You may have already stopped reading because you only skim the first sentence before replying to a post. But all of these things are free choices. As are choosing things that might improve your life like applying for a better job or saving some money.

[Imheretoo]

These are behaviors that domestic animals are more likely to exhibit than wild ones. It would be impossible for us to know this if they were unpredictable. Also, have you ever made a stupid decision on purpose? Probably not, because it would be stupid. Every decision you make is made based on reasoning and the smartest decision you could come up with is made. This fits very nicely into determinism.

No. Sometimes I make decisions based on impulse ... like eating a bag of crisps. I don't need to eat the crisps. I know they aren't good for me. I choose to eat them cos they taste nice. Sometimes I make decisions based on lust. These are always terrible decisions. Like telling a client I have the hots for them or asking my sister if she wants to share a bath. The sensible thing would be to choose NOT to do that. Sometimes I choose sleep in when I should be working. Sometimes I choose to not clean my room when it is dirty and I'm doing nothing else. Sometimes I choose to just stare into space and do absolutely nothing when anything else would be more productive. Sometimes I choose to tell a lie in my posts on TFES. Can you spot the lie in this post? I did it because I can. Because it amused me. It might not amuse you. You may have already stopped reading because you only skim the first sentence before replying to a post. But all of these things are free choices. As are choosing things that might improve your life like applying for a better job or saving some money.

Reasons for doing things don't always have to be based on long term benefit, that is called system one decision making. A concept that I would like for you to think about is that idea that people will always pick the perceived path of pleasure. This means that the path is not actually the right one, but it appears to be that way for the person at the time they are making the decision.

Also I sincerely hope the lie was taking a bath with your sister.

[Rushy]

I don't think that you can say it is a false interpretation of free will based on the fact that there are a multitude of interpretations of free will and they all claim to be correct.
I am getting at the idea that if my actions are determined by decisions made by the thoughts I experience in my head, and I have no control over these thoughts, I therefor have no control over the actions I commit. This is why I don't believe in free will.

If you truly feel that you have absolutely no control over the thoughts in your own mind then I highly suggest seeing a psychiatrist. While all humans have intrusive thoughts that they cannot control, to have nothing but intrusive thoughts is a symptom of various disorders.

Abnormal psychology is extremely different from mindfulness. I defined control as an ability to direct them. I have not yet been able to find a me that is separate from my thoughts and can thus direct them. This is why I say that "I" do not have "control" over my thoughts. Do you agree with my reasoning?

I agree that you still need to see a psychiatrist.

[Dr David Thork]

Reasons for doing things don't always have to be based on long term benefit, that is called system one decision making. A concept that I would like for you to think about is that idea that people will always pick the perceived path of pleasure. This means that the path is not actually the right one, but it appears to be that way for the person at the time they are making the decision.

I go to the gym. I hate it. It hurts. It makes me sweaty. It uses up my day. Its really boring. It isn't the path of pleasure. I do it because its good for me. My brother who also likes baths doesn't go to the gym. He chooses not to. We have the exact same choice. And we choose differently. We have free will.

Also I sincerely hope the lie was taking a bath with your sister.

Erm, Ok. I mean who the hell would tolerate a dirty bedroom but whatever. 

[Imheretoo]

I don't think that you can say it is a false interpretation of free will based on the fact that there are a multitude of interpretations of free will and they all claim to be correct.
I am getting at the idea that if my actions are determined by decisions made by the thoughts I experience in my head, and I have no control over these thoughts, I therefor have no control over the actions I commit. This is why I don't believe in free will.

If you truly feel that you have absolutely no control over the thoughts in your own mind then I highly suggest seeing a psychiatrist. While all humans have intrusive thoughts that they cannot control, to have nothing but intrusive thoughts is a symptom of various disorders.

Abnormal psychology is extremely different from mindfulness. I defined control as an ability to direct them. I have not yet been able to find a me that is separate from my thoughts and can thus direct them. This is why I say that "I" do not have "control" over my thoughts. Do you agree with my reasoning?

I agree that you still need to see a psychiatrist.

That is noted. Please tell me the flaw in my reasoning, or if we simply disagree on definitions.

[Imheretoo]

Reasons for doing things don't always have to be based on long term benefit, that is called system one decision making. A concept that I would like for you to think about is that idea that people will always pick the perceived path of pleasure. This means that the path is not actually the right one, but it appears to be that way for the person at the time they are making the decision.

I go to the gym. I hate it. It hurts. It makes me sweaty. It uses up my day. Its really boring. It isn't the path of pleasure. I do it because its good for me. My brother who also likes baths doesn't go to the gym. He chooses not to. We have the exact same choice. And we choose differently. We have free will.

Also I sincerely hope the lie was taking a bath with your sister.

Erm, Ok. I mean who the hell would tolerate a dirty bedroom but whatever. 

This is an example of system two decision making: There are not immediate benefits to your action but you see in the long term it will benefit you. This is combined with the fact that you probably feel great satisfaction after a good workout. If you perceived absolutely no pleasure to be gained from going to the gym then you would not do it.

[Dr David Thork]

Reasons for doing things don't always have to be based on long term benefit, that is called system one decision making. A concept that I would like for you to think about is that idea that people will always pick the perceived path of pleasure. This means that the path is not actually the right one, but it appears to be that way for the person at the time they are making the decision.

I go to the gym. I hate it. It hurts. It makes me sweaty. It uses up my day. Its really boring. It isn't the path of pleasure. I do it because its good for me. My brother who also likes baths doesn't go to the gym. He chooses not to. We have the exact same choice. And we choose differently. We have free will.

Also I sincerely hope the lie was taking a bath with your sister.

Erm, Ok. I mean who the hell would tolerate a dirty bedroom but whatever. 

This is an example of system two decision making: There are not immediate benefits to your action but you see in the long term it will benefit you. This is combined with the fact that you probably feel great satisfaction after a good workout. If you perceived absolutely no pleasure to be gained from going to the gym then you would not do it.

So masochists don't exist? Or are you going to tell me that is system 3 decision making?

[Dr David Thork]

You can't just say ... you tend to make logical choices and therefore your life is auto-determined. I make logical choices because I am not insane. Mad people make utterly illogical choices.

Sanity isn't the definition of determinism. And if you want to make it so, I give you exhibit A ... mad people. Who make bonkers choices. Are they the only people with free will?

[Imheretoo]

Reasons for doing things don't always have to be based on long term benefit, that is called system one decision making. A concept that I would like for you to think about is that idea that people will always pick the perceived path of pleasure. This means that the path is not actually the right one, but it appears to be that way for the person at the time they are making the decision.

I go to the gym. I hate it. It hurts. It makes me sweaty. It uses up my day. Its really boring. It isn't the path of pleasure. I do it because its good for me. My brother who also likes baths doesn't go to the gym. He chooses not to. We have the exact same choice. And we choose differently. We have free will.

Also I sincerely hope the lie was taking a bath with your sister.

Erm, Ok. I mean who the hell would tolerate a dirty bedroom but whatever. 

This is an example of system two decision making: There are not immediate benefits to your action but you see in the long term it will benefit you. This is combined with the fact that you probably feel great satisfaction after a good workout. If you perceived absolutely no pleasure to be gained from going to the gym then you would not do it.

So masochists don't exist? Or are you going to tell me that is system 3 decision making?

Let me make this easy for you: Masochists are people whose PERCEIVED PATH OF PLEASURE is pain. Also the dual-process model of decision making is widely accepted by psychiatrists.

[Imheretoo]

You can't just say ... you tend to make logical choices and therefore your life is auto-determined. I make logical choices because I am not insane. Mad people make utterly illogical choices.

Sanity isn't the definition of determinism. And if you want to make it so, I give you exhibit A ... mad people. Who make bonkers choices. Are they the only people with free will?

No, they are not the only one's with free will because they have even less control over the thoughts in their head. I would argue that rational thinking is directly linked to determinism. It is making a decision based on reasoning with presented information, which part of that leaves room for free will, since you will obviously not make a stupid decision?

[Dr David Thork]

Chaos theory is a thing.

You cannot determine the outcome of something that is chaotic. Therefore you cannot determine people's lives. They react and adjust and make decisions in the moment. There is nothing written saying what will happen.

If I flip a coin it might come up heads. If I flip it again that doesn't mean it has to be tails this time. The universe doesn't remember the coin toss that already happened. I could flip 10 heads in a row. It is still 50/50 that the next flip will be a head. It isn't determined.

[Imheretoo]

Chaos theory is a thing.

You cannot determine the outcome of something that is chaotic. Therefore you cannot determine people's lives. They react and adjust and make decisions in the moment. There is nothing written saying what will happen.

If I flip a coin it might come up heads. If I flip it again that doesn't mean it has to be tails this time. The universe doesn't remember the coin toss that already happened. I could flip 10 heads in a row. It is still 50/50 that the next flip will be a head. It isn't determined.

If people's lives were chaotic the world would be in complete anarchy. I do agree with everything else though but I'm confused how this demonstrates free will.

[Dr David Thork]

If the universe isn't keeping a ledger, it isn't ordering things. Things happen as they happen. It isn't predetermined. Probability teaches us this.

I'll ask you another way. Are you helpless?

If everything just happens to you, you are a helpless victim of the universe. You have no say. Do you feel helpless? Like there is nothing you can do in any situation to make your life better? Or do you just sit about waiting for awful things to happen to you?

[Imheretoo]

If the universe isn't keeping a ledger, it isn't ordering things. Things happen as they happen. It isn't predetermined. Probability teaches us this.

I'll ask you another way. Are you helpless?

If everything just happens to you, you are a helpless victim of the universe. You have no say. Do you feel helpless? Like there is nothing you can do in any situation to make your life better? Or do you just sit about waiting for awful things to happen to you?

I do not know how you could contend for a second that the universe does not order things. Laws of thermodynamics? Motion? The forces like friction or buoyancy? If things were not ordered then what stops me from falling through the floor? Of course things happen based on things that happened before them. While one flip of a coin does not determine the outcome of another flip, what does determine the outcome is air density, force of flick, height, etc.
I do not feel helpless. I may have not made my position clear but I believe that I am not separate from my thoughts. This means I cannot exhibit control over them but it does not mean that I can attempt to experience them to their full potential, and causally the actions which result from them. I am not in any less control than you are, and the fact that I am aware of it does not change it.

[Dr David Thork]

If you have no control and everything is determined, why not just do the easiest thing in every situation. Don't get a job. Don't go to uni. Don't bother cooking dinner. These things were all going to happen anyway, right? Just let whatever happens happen. But you don't. You try. Because you know you can change the course of your future. you know this. We all do. This reductionist argument about everything being preordained and therefore you've no responsibility for anything that happens because you are just an cog in a machine with no say is nonsense. Its nihilism for dummies.

Rules are not the same as a predetermined sequence of events. A coffee shop has rules. Pay for your drinks. Don't shout at the staff. Piss in the toilet and not on the floor. That doesn't determine which customers visit on any particular day.

[Imheretoo]

If you have no control and everything is determined, why not just do the easiest thing in every situation. Don't get a job. Don't go to uni. Don't bother cooking dinner. These things were all going to happen anyway, right? Just let whatever happens happen. But you don't. You try. Because you know you can change the course of your future. you know this. We all do. This reductionist argument about everything being preordained and therefore you've no responsibility for anything that happens because you are just an cog in a machine with no say is nonsense. Its nihilism for dummies.

Rules are not the same as a predetermined sequence of events. A coffee shop has rules. Pay for your drinks. Don't shout at the staff. Piss in the toilet and not on the floor. That doesn't determine which customers visit on any particular day.

First of all, this is a terrible argument because it does nothing to disprove my claim, it just tries to guess how I should live my life based on it.
Secondly, I don't know why you refuse to understand this but I beg you to try: People pick their perceived path of pleasure. My belief that I am predestined to have a certain kind of dinner in no way diminishes the fact that I enjoy dinner, I need dinner, and it will be my (say it with me now) perceived path of pleasure.
The coffee shop analogy doesn't work because the rules only apply to that coffee shop, not the entire world.
And finally my notion that I don't have free will does not make me value myself or anyone else any less. I still find inherent value in the things that I do and other people do because of the potential of each of us to experience pleasure or pain. I will always decide to pick pleasure, even if my perception of which path I should choose is wrong.

[Dr Van Nostrand]

I have worked over the course of my life to be a better person. I aspire to be better and I know I'm more aware, caring, and honest than I was as a snotty teenager. I believe it was my freewill choice to take that course rather than let my emotions, instinct and appetites guide my actions.

The threat to my freewill comes from the deterministic idea that all events in the world are caused by prior events. As I am an series of events in the world, my current actions can be traced to previous events traced to previous events traced to previous events all the way back to the beginning of time. Everything was predestined by the shape of a nugget at the heart of the big bang. It is my personal arrogance that makes me believe I have free will.

However, when we create a frame of reference that is so large as to encompass all that is possibly knowable, it leaves us with an unknowable void that we can fill with anything we choose. We can't know or affect anything beyond all that is knowable so insert the forces, deity or emptiness of your choice.

In the words of one neo-classical philosopher, "I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose free will."

[J-Man]

Dark energy really wanted me to ingest some high calories or carbs as I past through the kitchen. Instead I grabbed a hard boiled egg and made a salad. I was rather piggy yesterday, so my will to be the beautiful being I should be, munched down on healthy.

The pop tarts will have to wait bitchez. Without FreeWilly I would be an Orca !