[rooster]

KKK members also really enjoy toting around the plain old stars and stripes. Under the stars and stripes we achieved a very successful genocide. But hey, genocide is only a part of the symbolism so let's just ignore the part we don't like... oh wait.... We're not allowed to pick and choose in this scenario.

I have lived in TN for 22 years. The Confederate flag means "I'm a redneck" to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean racism since there are plenty of black rednecks as well.

[Pete Svarrior]

Regardless, my background aside, it's ludicrous to argue that the Confederate flag does not mean racism.  I typed in "confederate flag" into Google and the fourth predictive result, right after history, was "confederate flag racist."

Does that surprise you? There's a debate on whether or not the flag is racist. People are looking for resources on the subject. I thought we buried the "Google says so, so it's true" fallacy when Thork started spamming Google Trends graphs all over the place to claim that Microsoft is more relevant than bread and what-not.

But hey, I learned some facts too using your method:



9/11 was, in fact, a conspiracy. After all, "9/11 conspiracy" is the third (objectively more factual than your fourth!!!) suggestion for 9/11.
Homeopathy is legit - after all, if it weren't, the fourth suggestion for it would indicate it somehow.
America is not #1. Shame, I was hoping to move there in a few years.
EDIT: America is also Israel. After all, the two words occurred one after the other, and thus this is the only possible interpretation.

The Confederate Flag means racism.  This should be an axiom.

I'm sorry, but using "my claim should be an axiom" to back up your claim is not gonna work.

Now, I am fully aware that people say that it does not mean racism and I do maintain that they are wrong.  You don't get to hang a swastika somewhere and claim it means environmentalism.

You do, however, get the hammer and sickle somewhere and have it mean "airline".



Unsurprisingly, Aeroflot are not trying to kill Putin and reclaim the power for the proletariat.

You cannot rewrite the meaning of a symbol because you don't like part of it.

You can, and it happens rather frequently.

If you want to have a symbol that represents your Southern heritage and don't want people to think you're racist, then pick something different than a Confederate flag.

Alternatively, stop telling people that you know what they're saying better than they are.

Semiotics is a serious field of study with deep insights into not only how people perceive things, but also the way in which we associate feelings of loyalty, aversion, and pride; to say that all that can be undone by whatever the person flying the symbol thinks is frankly arrogant.

I have just decided that by "semiotics" you mean "vanilla ice cream". That should be axiomatic because of Bing, or something. Your sentence now makes no sense and you should feel really bad for it.

Now, I will fully admit that it's my opinion that the Confederate Flag means racism, but it's not a lonely opinion.

w0w, I never knew! This changes everything and immediately makes you right! After all, the popularity of an idea always determines its truth value.

While it may not mean racism to everyone, one of the core meanings of the confederate flag is racism.

Define "core".

When you use that symbol, you get that meaning.  Plain and simple.  When the KKK uses the swastika, they are achieving the white supremacy meaning that they desire, but they are also getting strong antisemitic feelings attached to that.  If the KKK said that they are just using the swastika to only mean white supremacy (I don't think they would, but lets pretend) they can't change the feelings that the symbol evokes in those that see it.  If the KKK wanted to use the swastika to convey a meaning of only white supremacy, then they are doing a very poor job of communicating.

Restating your claim over and over does nothing to strengthen it.

However, as it turns out, the KKK doesn't mind getting these other elicitations because the symbolism of the swastika so closely aligns with their ideals.  I was criticized for this sounding that I was making an argument for symbols being able to mean different things.  It was in part (they can mean different things, but one meaning does not invalidate the other meanings), but what's really at work here is symbols can mean many things.  Lets say that the swastika means three things: Ayran supremacy, environmentalism, and Nazi Germany.

No, let's say the swastika means four things, and that this list is not exhaustive: Aryan supremacy, the Purushartha, Suparśvanātha and the Sun. See, the funny thing here is that you don't need to make up new meanings for it - you just need to stop being a stuck up American who's only willing to examine the culture of his immediate surroundings.

white supremacy is very close to Ayran supremacy

No, it's not. Please learn some history or something.

People flying the Confederate flag cannot lose the meanings of racism associated with the symbol

They already have. It just looks like the American left wing hasn't caught up with it and are now up in arms over "I don't understand it, therefore it's evil!" I thought that was the Republicans' modus operandi, but the horseshoe theory is as strong as ever.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I do indeed understand the comparison that many of you are making between the Nazi flag and Confederate Battle Flag. As a Jew, I am sensitive to that. At the same time, I also get the fact that for many Southerners, the flag has nothing to do with slavery. Having lived in TN myself, I know that to many, the flag represents Southern pride, and has nothing to do with people per se. And yes, there are the racists.

Somehow, it seems that the the Nazi flag has acqired a strictly negative connotation, whereas the Battle Flag, for many people, has positive connotations of heritage and even honour, in spite of the slavery aspect. No one defends that unless they're psychotic.

[Pete Svarrior]

Meanwhile, the paranoia spreads to viddy games. America is looking as silly as always.

[Pongo]

omg, SexWarrior.  It's going to take me forever to deconstruct all these fallacies.

[Pete Svarrior]

omg, SexWarrior.  It's going to take me forever to deconstruct all these fallacies.

Yes, responding to ~25 sentences is a very arduous task. I heard only the brightest of Mensa members can even attempt it.

[Blanko]

Meanwhile, the paranoia spreads to viddy games. America is looking as silly as always.

This is literally the dumbest thing. I guess forcing your own agenda on others is the politically correct thing to do now.

[Pongo]

omg, SexWarrior.  It's going to take me forever to deconstruct all these fallacies.

Yes, responding to ~25 sentences is a very arduous task. I heard only the brightest of Mensa members can even attempt it.

I didn't say arduous, I said it would take forever.  It would take a long time to dig a mile of trenches, but you don't need the brightest members Mensa to do it.

[Pete Svarrior]

This is literally the dumbest thing. I guess forcing your own agenda on others is the politically correct thing to do now.

Hopefully, they'll take that decision back. Historically, Apple are very reactionary about current events, but once they get enough bad press they get back in line.

I didn't say arduous, I said it would take forever.  It would take a long time to dig a mile of trenches, but you don't need the brightest members Mensa to do it.

A wonderful thing about online forums is you don't need to announce your activity and response times to everyone, since the conversations are known not to be real-time (unless you're Yaakov). How about you just make contributive posts when you're ready for them?

Edit: Also, please look up "arduous". It's my Mensa quip you have a problem with, not my use of that word.

[rooster]

Meanwhile, the paranoia spreads to viddy games. America is looking as silly as always.

This is literally the dumbest thing. I guess forcing your own agenda on others is the politically correct thing to do now.

Oh jesus take the wheel.

This kind of behavior is why I agreed with SexWarrior in the feminist thread. General extreme PC reactions are driving me crazy. It sets a scary precedent in my opinion, which is just a slippery slope fallacy, I know, but damn. I'm a socially progressive person but cleansing out all offensive materials and opinions is frightening.

[Rama Set]

Meanwhile, the paranoia spreads to viddy games. America is looking as silly as always.

This is literally the dumbest thing. I guess forcing your own agenda on others is the politically correct thing to do now.

Oh jesus take the wheel.

This kind of behavior is why I agreed with SexWarrior in the feminist thread. General extreme PC reactions are driving me crazy. It sets a scary precedent in my opinion, which is just a slippery slope fallacy, I know, but damn. I'm a socially progressive person but cleansing out all offensive materials and opinions is frightening.

A socially progressive person should not even be afraid of people being offensive.  Hitchens gave a great talk on free speech outlining why it is in fact the most offensive ideas that require the most protection from censorship.  After all, you do not need free speech rights to talk about how great your country is, for example, you need free speech rights to lay heavy criticism upon ideas, people, etc...

Anyway, being upset over accurately representing history because you think history was bad is literally one of the dumbest positions ever.

[Rushy]

This is still going. Amazing.

[Tau]

I'm still pretty sure that, regardless of revisionist theories about how the civil war wasn't really about slavery, and regardless of whether or not the flag is inherently racist, it's a symbol of high treason and it's, at the very least, in bad taste for a state to fly it in any official capacity.

[beardo]

[Rushy]

I'm still pretty sure that, regardless of revisionist theories about how the civil war wasn't really about slavery, and regardless of whether or not the flag is inherently racist, it's a symbol of high treason and it's, at the very least, in bad taste for a state to fly it in any official capacity.

The civil war was revised by the both north to be about slavery, not the other way around.

[Tau]

I'm still pretty sure that, regardless of revisionist theories about how the civil war wasn't really about slavery, and regardless of whether or not the flag is inherently racist, it's a symbol of high treason and it's, at the very least, in bad taste for a state to fly it in any official capacity.

The civil war was revised by the both north to be about slavery, not the other way around.

This is usually the argument about historical revisionism. There's no question that it happened, just the question of who did the revising. Here, historical documents much more readily support the idea that the civil war was largely to do with slavery. Many high-ranking officials and important documents considered slavery the primary impetus for the war, and arguments against this tend to be... limited.

It's true that the North's only goal was to reunite the nation. Lincoln only gave the Emancipation Proclamation to drum up support for the war effort, and he very notably excluded border states from the order. However, the South's secession was in order to protect its right to own slaves, in order to protect its wealthy from the significant losses that would occur if they lost their slaves. No matter how you turn it, it wouldn't have happened had slavery not been an issue.

Regardless, the flag itself is the symbol of treason. It's no different from building a statue of Benedict Arnold at the UK embassy in DC. The are excuses you can make for why he deserves a statue, but it's still in poor taste to put it in that particular place.

[Rushy]

This is usually the argument about historical revisionism. There's no question that it happened, just the question of who did the revising. Here, historical documents much more readily support the idea that the civil war was largely to do with slavery. Many high-ranking officials and important documents considered slavery the primary impetus for the war, and arguments against this tend to be... limited.

Except the fact that people in the Confederacy, notably General Robert E Lee, argued against slavery; all the while President Lincoln centered an entire speech on the inferiority of the black race.

It's true that the North's only goal was to reunite the nation. Lincoln only gave the Emancipation Proclamation to drum up support for the war effort, and he very notably excluded border states from the order. However, the South's secession was in order to protect its right to own slaves, in order to protect its wealthy from the significant losses that would occur if they lost their slaves. No matter how you turn it, it wouldn't have happened had slavery not been an issue.

The North made the war about slavery because they knew ending slavery after the war would economically crush the South. The South was beginning to rebel long before the North intended on fully banning slavery, especially considering an awful lot of northerners owned slaves at the time. It's the very same reason that General Grant burned his path through the South. The North even made it pretty clear they didn't care at all what actually happened to the slaves after the war.

Regardless, the flag itself is the symbol of treason. It's no different from building a statue of Benedict Arnold at the UK embassy in DC. The are excuses you can make for why he deserves a statue, but it's still in poor taste to put it in that particular place.

The flag is a symbol of states fighting for their rights and losing. Your logic equates to me saying the US shouldn't be allies with the UK because the US flag represents treason to the UK.

[Pete Svarrior]

Regardless, the flag itself is the symbol of treason. It's no different from building a statue of Benedict Arnold at the UK embassy in DC. The are excuses you can make for why he deserves a statue, but it's still in poor taste to put it in that particular place.

Notably, Benedict Arnold does have memorials in the UK - there's no need to invoke embassies. His tomb, also located in the UK, is well upkept, treated with the respect it deserves, and open for visitors.



"The two nations whom he served
in turn in the years of their enmity
have united in this memorial
as a token of their enduring
friendship."

Europeans tend not to value their feelings more than their history. Until recently, this was also true about Americans.

[Tau]

Regardless, the flag itself is the symbol of treason. It's no different from building a statue of Benedict Arnold at the UK embassy in DC. The are excuses you can make for why he deserves a statue, but it's still in poor taste to put it in that particular place.

Notably, Benedict Arnold does have memorials in the UK - there's no need to invoke embassies. His tomb, also located in the UK, is well upkept, treated with the respect it deserves, and open for visitors.



"The two nations whom he served
in turn in the years of their enmity
have united in this memorial
as a token of their enduring
friendship."

Europeans tend not to value their feelings more than their history. Until recently, this was also true about Americans.

There's nothing wrong with that. Benedict Arnold was a great man who did a lot of great things, and he deserves everything you just mentioned. I'm invoking the UK Embassy in the US for a reason. Putting a statue of a man who, in the US, is mostly famous for betraying us to the UK in front of the UK's embassy here would be rather rude. Similarly, putting the flag of the confederacy on your state's flag, or raising it at your statehouse, is rather rude.

[Pete Svarrior]

There's nothing wrong with that. Benedict Arnold was a great man who did a lot of great things, and he deserves everything you just mentioned. I'm invoking the UK Embassy in the US for a reason. Putting a statue of a man who, in the US, is mostly famous for betraying us to the UK in front of the UK's embassy here would be rather rude. Similarly, putting the flag of the confederacy on your state's flag, or raising it at your statehouse, is rather rude.

I don't see what you're trying to say. You're saying that one case of celebraiting traitors in the traitors' homeland is ok, but in another case it's inappropriate. We're not calling for flying the Battle Flag in DC, you know.