Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« on: September 06, 2017, 04:22:47 PM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2017, 04:32:06 PM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
timeanddate.com

Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2017, 05:27:15 PM »
timeanddate.com

I've been to that site, which is based on RE math. I am looking for an equivalent from the FE community based on the math behind their models.

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2017, 05:39:04 PM »
timeanddate.com

I've been to that site, which is based on RE math. I am looking for an equivalent from the FE community based on the math behind their models.
Sorry, but such equations don't exist. FE doesn't even have a definitive map, much less the ability to make the equations for the purpose of fulfilling your request.

Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 12:18:24 AM »

Sorry, but such equations don't exist. FE doesn't even have a definitive map, much less the ability to make the equations for the purpose of fulfilling your request.

I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.

*

Offline juner

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10178
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 02:46:10 AM »

Sorry, but such equations don't exist. FE doesn't even have a definitive map, much less the ability to make the equations for the purpose of fulfilling your request.

I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.

We don't have a YouTube, and I imagine you may have had the wrong Twitter account. So, "their" forum may be a bit of a misnomer.

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 08:18:25 AM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.

This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.

=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3

Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.

In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.

During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 08:37:27 AM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.

This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.

=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3

Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.

In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.

During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 12:33:49 PM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.

This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.

=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3

Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.

In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.

During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.

Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.

During the equinox:
   1) The sun will follow a path directly over the equator.
   2) Day length at all latitudes is 12 hours.
        3) Sunrise and sunset for the round Earth model will be due East and due West at all latitudes.

Assume you are 0° N, 0° W – South of Ghana, Africa. (Map below)
At solar noon the sun is directly overhead.
In 6 hours (sunset) the sun will travel to 0° N, 90° W (1/4 the circumference of the equator).

The deviation (N) of the sun from due West at sunset can be calculated by:

Deviation (N) from due West = arctan (D1/D2)
   D1= distance from observer to North Pole = 10,000 km
   D2 = distance from sunset position (equator) to North Pole = 10,000 km

   Arctan (10,000/10,000) = 0.785 radians
                  = 0.785*57.3
                       = 45°

D1 was modified to accommodate any latitude.
   D1 = (90 - Latitude)*111.1 km
      Latitude = latitude of observer (for South latitude used negative value).
      111.1 = km/degree latitude (10,000 km / 90°)
   
   D2 = 10,000 km

Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
             = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3

The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 12:47:53 PM by Rational »

Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2017, 04:35:44 PM »

I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.

We don't have a YouTube, and I imagine you may have had the wrong Twitter account. So, "their" forum may be a bit of a misnomer.
I didn't make any statement about the authors or ownership of the YouTube video's where I made comments.

The Twitter account I was referring to is @FlatEarthOrg which is listed as belonging to Flat Earth Society (with Twitter's verification indicated). Is that not the same organization that operates this web site and forum?

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2017, 04:41:50 PM »

I've asked the question on a few YouTube video comments and on Twitter without a response. Thought I might have more luck on their forum.

We don't have a YouTube, and I imagine you may have had the wrong Twitter account. So, "their" forum may be a bit of a misnomer.
I didn't make any statement about the authors or ownership of the YouTube video's where I made comments.

The Twitter account I was referring to is @FlatEarthOrg which is listed as belonging to Flat Earth Society (with Twitter's verification indicated). Is that not the same organization that operates this web site and forum?
I would suspect it's run by the Flat Earth Society that runs the other forum. Why they have two forums, I don't know. Those guys are over here for reference.

Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2017, 05:03:51 PM »

I would suspect it's run by the Flat Earth Society that runs the other forum. Why they have two forums, I don't know. Those guys are over here for reference.
There is a difference between Flat Earth Society (http://www.tfes.org/), and THE Flat Earth Society (https://theflatearthsociety.org)???

Is this for real?

The Twitter home for @FlatEarthOrg that I referred to points to tfes.org (this site) as their homepage and also links to faq.tfes.org. So I believe am I addressing the correct site.

*

Offline juner

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10178
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 05:19:55 PM »
I would suspect it's run by the Flat Earth Society that runs the other forum. Why they have two forums, I don't know. Those guys are over here for reference.
No one who runs the other forum has anything to do with running this one (except Pongo being a mod on both). Us old timers came from there back in late 2013. Our admin Parsifal previously ran this as a place to go to when the other site went down (happened fairly often, still does). After some particular incompetence, a group of us just moved over here for good. Also, their social media accounts are absolutely unrelated to ours.


There is a difference between Flat Earth Society (http://www.tfes.org/), and THE Flat Earth Society (https://theflatearthsociety.org)???

Is this for real?

The Twitter home for @FlatEarthOrg that I referred to points to tfes.org (this site) as their homepage and also links to faq.tfes.org. So I believe am I addressing the correct site.


Yes, it is for real.

You have the correct Twitter, but we still don't have a YouTube channel. Our very own Pete Svarrior graciously dedicates his time to running our social media.


EDIT: Link to a brief history -  https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6087.msg116584#msg116584
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 05:25:07 PM by junker »

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 07:39:33 PM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.

This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.

=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3

Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.

In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.

During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.

Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.

During the equinox:
   1) The sun will follow a path directly over the equator.
   2) Day length at all latitudes is 12 hours.
        3) Sunrise and sunset for the round Earth model will be due East and due West at all latitudes.

Assume you are 0° N, 0° W – South of Ghana, Africa. (Map below)
At solar noon the sun is directly overhead.
In 6 hours (sunset) the sun will travel to 0° N, 90° W (1/4 the circumference of the equator).

The deviation (N) of the sun from due West at sunset can be calculated by:

Deviation (N) from due West = arctan (D1/D2)
   D1= distance from observer to North Pole = 10,000 km
   D2 = distance from sunset position (equator) to North Pole = 10,000 km

   Arctan (10,000/10,000) = 0.785 radians
                  = 0.785*57.3
                       = 45°

D1 was modified to accommodate any latitude.
   D1 = (90 - Latitude)*111.1 km
      Latitude = latitude of observer (for South latitude used negative value).
      111.1 = km/degree latitude (10,000 km / 90°)
   
   D2 = 10,000 km

Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
             = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3

The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.
Are your results consistent with actual observations and those in timeanddate.com?

Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 08:07:21 PM »

Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.

...

Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
             = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3

The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.

Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.

What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?

Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 10:44:14 PM »

Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.

...

Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
             = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3

The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.

Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.

What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?

Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?

57.3 is to convert the results from radians to degrees. It's 180/Pi

My results for latitude 30.22749 (N) is 34° (rounded) north of West. Not sure what happened. You can PM me if you'd like or I can send you my Excel spreadsheet.

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2017, 07:00:18 PM »
If you are using a magnetic compass you need to factor in the declination between magnetic North and true North. It can be as much as 20° East or West in the US.

Here is a quick explanation:
https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/compass-declination.html

Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2017, 03:34:03 PM »

Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.

What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?

Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?

57.3 is to convert the results from radians to degrees. It's 180/Pi

My results for latitude 30.22749 (N) is 34° (rounded) north of West. Not sure what happened. You can PM me if you'd like or I can send you my Excel spreadsheet.

I did get the same math result (34 degrees rounded) I just didn't describe it well. I had 56 being the compass heading for sun rise (34 degrees from due east, 90-34=56) then I changed to talking about sun set. Sorry for the confusing result.

If the hurricane clears out soon enough I will be able to visit the ocean next week and I'll take a compass with me to check this. And I will adjust for the magnetic variance. Thanks.

Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2017, 03:23:48 AM »

Trying to understand the math here. I understand the 0.01111 now as it is basically a multiplier used to convert number of degrees of latitude into a distance from the north pole, in order to find the length of one of the legs of the right triangle.

What is the 57.3 number supposed to represent?

Taking that number for granted, using the latitude 30.22749 (N) this formula calculates to a value of 56 degrees (rounded) north of west (sunset example), which then equates to a compass heading of 304 degrees. That would be roughly north west. Do you agree with that result?

57.3 is to convert the results from radians to degrees. It's 180/Pi

My results for latitude 30.22749 (N) is 34° (rounded) north of West. Not sure what happened. You can PM me if you'd like or I can send you my Excel spreadsheet.

I did get the same math result (34 degrees rounded) I just didn't describe it well. I had 56 being the compass heading for sun rise (34 degrees from due east, 90-34=56) then I changed to talking about sun set. Sorry for the confusing result.

If the hurricane clears out soon enough I will be able to visit the ocean next week and I'll take a compass with me to check this. And I will adjust for the magnetic variance. Thanks.

The deviation North for both the sunset and sunrise is the same. The angles are the same, just mirror image of each other. In your case, both are 34° (N) of due East and due West.

The autumnal equinox is September 22. Next week will be a little early but shouldn't make much difference. Stay safe and good luck with your measurements.

Offline mtnman

  • *
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2017, 04:08:31 AM »

The deviation North for both the sunset and sunrise is the same. The angles are the same, just mirror image of each other. In your case, both are 34° (N) of due East and due West.

The autumnal equinox is September 22. Next week will be a little early but shouldn't make much difference. Stay safe and good luck with your measurements.
Correct, if I can make it there, will be a few days ahead of the equinox. But still fairly close, thanks.