i dont understand someone help please
« on: April 16, 2021, 06:19:29 PM »
I'm, not a flat earth believer btw. okay so ik you guys believe if the horizon is flat then the earth is flat. how does that make sense though since when you go on an airplane and look through the window you can see there is a slight curve which you can see even better from a wider view. basically, that's like saying it's hot outside so the air is spicy. also, you say water doesn't curve but ever heard of a meniscus, or a drop of water running down a window???? someone please explain this to me

Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2021, 09:05:43 PM »
I'm, not a flat earth believer btw.

That's good! Avoid becoming one! Belief is what got us into this mess in the first place. Belief has no place in knowledge/fact, least of all scientific, and is directly across purposes to objective study of any kind. Seek to KNOW instead!

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okay so ik you guys believe if the horizon is flat then the earth is flat.

Some do, others do not. There is little uniformity/consensus across flat earth researchers because they are largely independent researchers with varying approaches and conclusions.  People believe the horizon should curve (and the earth is spherical) because they were conditioned by rote under the guise of education to believe that.  The reverse belief is not much better.

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when you go on an airplane and look through the window you can see there is a slight curve which you can see even better from a wider view.

I highly recommend reading the wiki here! It will address many of your common questions (and misconceptions).  It is not a bible, nor a textbook - but a compilation of many, often disparate, ideas from varying researchers.

The horizon does not curve at any attainable altitude or fov.  You can observe this yourself (as many others have) for around 100 bucks.

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someone please explain this to me

Read the wiki!  Water's surface at rest does not curve the way the globe model requires, the meniscus is a miniscule surface tension artifact and not relevant.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 09:09:57 PM by jack44556677 »

Offline buddha

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2021, 12:09:41 AM »
Oh...
I though this site was for people who belive the earth is flat!
any one know sites for people who belive in flat earth?

Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2021, 07:59:30 AM »
Last year, I was watching the "Live View" of the earth from the ISS, and the earth vanished from the display, but left a white cut-out shape where it should have been.  After about a minute, the feed turned off.  Since that happened, I've wondered if the display is actually from a camera/cameras on the ISS or not, and if it is, whether the huge curve is the actual horizon or just an overlay, as that is what it appeared to be when I saw the glitch.  I'm not out to prove anything, but I thought it was a curiousity.

Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2021, 10:00:06 PM »
I though this site was for people who belive the earth is flat!
This is a site for FE believers, but RE believers come here too, mainly to try and prove the RE.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2021, 03:47:33 PM »

When you live on a globe earth the observed horizon will always be flat unless you are very high up in an airplane.  Commercial passenger aircraft just don't get to a sufficient altitude to make a meaningful observation of any curvature.


That's good! Avoid becoming one! Belief is what got us into this mess in the first place. Belief has no place in knowledge/fact, least of all scientific, and is directly across purposes to objective study of any kind. Seek to KNOW instead!
KNOWING something is great but that doesn't mean that it is correct.  Couldn't you actually KNOW something that's incorrect?  In that case it would be much better to BELIEVE in something that's actually correct!


Read the wiki!  Water's surface at rest does not curve the way the globe model requires, the meniscus is a miniscule surface tension artifact and not relevant.
Here's the example of your KNOWING something that's actually incorrect by doing measurements in the Zetetic manner:  If you take a ship out to sea with access to a couple of very high quality gyroscopes and inspect them day after day as part of your job and actually measure the curvature of the sea, and the earth the water is lying on,  would that process result in KNOWING or BELIEVING?  Those measurements, and many others, from completely different gyros on different ships, consistently indicate that the surface of the sea is curved in the manner consistent with a globe earth.  Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that I now KNOW that the earth is a sphere ???   
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 03:52:18 PM by RonJ »
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Offline fisherman

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2021, 04:10:38 PM »
Quote
That's good! Avoid becoming one! Belief is what got us into this mess in the first place. Belief has no place in knowledge/fact, least of all scientific, and is directly across purposes to objective study of any kind. Seek to KNOW instead!


That comes close to the dumbest thing I have ever heard anybody say.  You can only know something if you have (and understand) all the facts, but you can never know if you have all the facts or that you understand them correctly. You can only believe that you do. 

You can’t know what you don’t know, so by your logic you can’t really know anything.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2021, 04:15:49 PM »
The only difference between "knowing" something and "believing" something is your own perceived degree of certainty.
I have certainly claimed to "know" things in the past which I have subsequently found out were incorrect.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline fisherman

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 04:35:44 PM »
The only difference between "knowing" something and "believing" something is your own perceived degree of certainty.
I have certainly claimed to "know" things in the past which I have subsequently found out were incorrect.

Yes, that's kind of my point.  Knowing and believing are just degrees of certainty.  Not two different things.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2021, 04:39:36 PM »
also, you say water doesn't curve but ever heard of a meniscus, or a drop of water running down a window????
Are you proposing that, in a Round Earth scenario, the curvature of the water is caused by surface tension? I presume we can all agree that this isn't how any of this works.

basically, that's like saying it's hot outside so the air is spicy
Basically, it's not.

I wonder - is the "13" in your username your age, per chance?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 02:26:11 PM »
When you live on a globe earth the observed horizon will always be flat unless you are very high up in an airplane.  Commercial passenger aircraft just don't get to a sufficient altitude to make a meaningful observation of any curvature.

Incorrect.  I was mistaught this as well.  The horizon does not curve at any altitude attainable (including high altitude balloon).  This does not have necessary bearing on the shape of the world; it's simply a demonstrable and reasonably repeatable/observable fact.

One of the reasons we were taught that tripe was to bolster belief (not knowledge) in the globe model.  Often the bs (which is not to say certainly "lies") came directly from nasa which consistently continued to claim, decade after decade for approaching 3/4 of a century now, "it's just a little bit further than you can get to, but trust us - it's totally there". 

Part of the misconception/misunderstanding is somewhat innocent, as lens distortion causes the effect that makes the horizon appear to curve (when it clearly, and logically, doesn't).

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KNOWING something is great but that doesn't mean that it is correct.

Agreed.  Generally/historically speaking, humanity is always wrong about everything.

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In that case it would be much better to BELIEVE in something that's actually correct!

Belief is for fools, wisdom (generalized knowledge) for the wise.  The chances of our vain self-serving belief being correct are consistently infentessimal, and we know this from validating/verifying/testing them over millenia.  The scientific method is carefully crafted to avoid the natural and default self-delusion that belief constitutes.

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If you take a ship out to sea with access to a couple of very high quality gyroscopes and inspect them day after day as part of your job and actually measure the curvature of the sea, and the earth the water is lying on,  would that process result in KNOWING or BELIEVING?

You would know that gyroscopes precess in a specific manner, your tendency (which you must resist to do objective study and learn / obtain knowledge) will be to believe that you have measured the water curving which is itself a conclusion contingent on much more assumption/bias/belief you swallowed long ago. (Like that you understand all the sources influencing the precession of the gyroscopes, for one)


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Those measurements, and many others, from completely different gyros on different ships, consistently indicate that the surface of the sea is curved in the manner consistent with a globe earth.  Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that I now KNOW that the earth is a sphere ???

I do not mean to be dismissive, but you don't have that data ("those measurements") - nor does anyone.  If you did, and others independently repeated/confirmed your measurements then we could begin to talk about such things (which I personally would find fascinating!).  Without the measurements   - we have little to discuss except your interpretation of them should they happen to exist anywhere outside your heart and mind.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 06:54:36 PM »
I do not mean to be dismissive, but you don't have that data ("those measurements") - nor does anyone.  If you did, and others independently repeated/confirmed your measurements then we could begin to talk about such things (which I personally would find fascinating!).  Without the measurements   - we have little to discuss except your interpretation of them should they happen to exist anywhere outside your heart and mind.
This is just another polite way of saying "I don't care how much data you have or what your measuring instruments are, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up".
The next question then would be:  Would you be willing to stake you life on what you think you KNOW?  I KNOW the earth is spherical, I've confirmed it, and on that I'm willing to bet my life on what I KNOW.  Sailors do it often.  Those who live in their mother's basement don't and frequently troll just for fun.  Do you KNOW that?
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Offline fisherman

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2021, 08:03:02 PM »
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The scientific method is carefully crafted to avoid the natural and default self-delusion that belief constitutes.
Yet you reject any conclusion that has been reached by application of the scientific method.

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The chances of our vain self-serving belief being correct are consistently infentessimal, and we know this from validating/verifying/testing them over millenia. 

You judging anybody for being "vain", is just too rich.  ::)
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2021, 09:54:03 PM »
When you live on a globe earth the observed horizon will always be flat unless you are very high up in an airplane.  Commercial passenger aircraft just don't get to a sufficient altitude to make a meaningful observation of any curvature.

Incorrect.  I was mistaught this as well.  The horizon does not curve at any altitude attainable (including high altitude balloon).  This does not have necessary bearing on the shape of the world; it's simply a demonstrable and reasonably repeatable/observable fact.

One of the reasons we were taught that tripe was to bolster belief (not knowledge) in the globe model.  Often the bs (which is not to say certainly "lies") came directly from nasa which consistently continued to claim, decade after decade for approaching 3/4 of a century now, "it's just a little bit further than you can get to, but trust us - it's totally there". 

Part of the misconception/misunderstanding is somewhat innocent, as lens distortion causes the effect that makes the horizon appear to curve (when it clearly, and logically, doesn't).

Quote
KNOWING something is great but that doesn't mean that it is correct.

Agreed.  Generally/historically speaking, humanity is always wrong about everything.

Quote
In that case it would be much better to BELIEVE in something that's actually correct!

Belief is for fools, wisdom (generalized knowledge) for the wise.  The chances of our vain self-serving belief being correct are consistently infentessimal, and we know this from validating/verifying/testing them over millenia.  The scientific method is carefully crafted to avoid the natural and default self-delusion that belief constitutes.

Quote
If you take a ship out to sea with access to a couple of very high quality gyroscopes and inspect them day after day as part of your job and actually measure the curvature of the sea, and the earth the water is lying on,  would that process result in KNOWING or BELIEVING?

You would know that gyroscopes precess in a specific manner, your tendency (which you must resist to do objective study and learn / obtain knowledge) will be to believe that you have measured the water curving which is itself a conclusion contingent on much more assumption/bias/belief you swallowed long ago. (Like that you understand all the sources influencing the precession of the gyroscopes, for one)


Quote
Those measurements, and many others, from completely different gyros on different ships, consistently indicate that the surface of the sea is curved in the manner consistent with a globe earth.  Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that I now KNOW that the earth is a sphere ???

I do not mean to be dismissive, but you don't have that data ("those measurements") - nor does anyone.  If you did, and others independently repeated/confirmed your measurements then we could begin to talk about such things (which I personally would find fascinating!).  Without the measurements   - we have little to discuss except your interpretation of them should they happen to exist anywhere outside your heart and mind.

But Jack, we've been here before. We've talked about gyros, for example - we had a deep conversation about drift nuts in directional gyros, which correct for the drift error caused by the earth's rotation - 15 degrees per hour multiplied by the sine of the latitude. I showed you some links too - you can see for yourself. There's also plenty more information about the various other types of gyro error.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=17655.msg230770#msg230770

What possible physical layout of our planet could possibly account for such an error, other than a rotating globe?

If this stuff wasn't real then these safety critical instruments would perform worse due to the needless compensations - why would that happen? And I won't let you disappear after a vague 'it's due to friction' or whatever - that cannot be the case. Friction and other mech errors manifest in random ways. 15 degrees per hour multiplied by the sine of the latitude is not a random error - there has to be a physical explanation for it. It would make no sense at all on a flat earth - what is special about the equator that would cause the error to be zero, for example? But on a globe earth it makes total sense.

You said before that you were a sceptic. Great. Doesn't this stuff give you cause to think 'maybe it is a globe after all?'.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 02:41:29 AM »
I am familiar with aircraft gyros and they do have drift nuts.  In another lifetime I was a commercial pilot, owned many of my own aircraft, and was also an FAA certified avionics tech.  Marine gyros are more advanced.  The gyros are a bit bigger in size and that makes them more stable.  These gyros are mounted in a sphere that is supported by liquid inside another sphere.  Personnel on the bridge only see the the readout of the current ship's azimuth, which is all they are interested in.  On all the ships I've worked aboard, the gyros were usually located in a separate compartment one deck below the bridge.  Just one of my jobs was to monitor the functions and do any required maintenance on all the gyros.  I did have a laptop with the engineering and maintenance software loaded into it and I could see all the sensor readings on these very complex gyros.  I can see that none of the really relevant questions about gyro operations and/or compensations were even asked so I KNOW that I dealing with someone who is just grasping at straws (and/or strawmen) when trying to discuss the reasons why a gyro can't prove a spherical earth. I could suggest that you look up some of the gyro service manuals that are on line. Sperry has been making them for quite a while, but most all the on line manuals are for gyros that are quite old and obsolete. The ones I worked with were much more advanced.  Friction was brought up as an argument against gyros providing useful readings.  That's completely bogus.  If it will make you feel better, mechanical gyros are being phased out in certain circumstances and new ring laser gyros are being installed in their place.  You won't find too much mechanical friction in a laser beam.  The bottom line is that I KNOW that the earth is a sphere because of the consistent and expected readings that I always got when I reviewed the performance of the ship's gyros after every long haul trip across the Pacific Ocean.  This was normal practice.  These gyros were always overhauled on a fixed/regular schedule just like the airlines do on passenger aircraft.  No one wants a failure at a critical time.  If you don't think that a gyro will detect the earth's rotation just ask Bob Knodel he has a nice video of a ring laser gyro showing the expected 15 degree per hour rotation rate (much to his dismay, I'm sure).   
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 02:45:34 AM by RonJ »
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 06:29:59 AM »
Often the bs (which is not to say certainly "lies") came directly from nasa which consistently continued to claim, decade after decade for approaching 3/4 of a century now, "it's just a little bit further than you can get to, but trust us - it's totally there".

Can you provide a source for this quote, or an approximation of it?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 11:25:25 AM »
Often the bs (which is not to say certainly "lies") came directly from nasa which consistently continued to claim, decade after decade for approaching 3/4 of a century now, "it's just a little bit further than you can get to, but trust us - it's totally there".

Will you be keeping an eye on the upcoming privately-funded SpaceX mission? A private buyer has booked the SpaceX Dragon for a vanity trip, along with two other private citizens, a trip which will take them in an orbit 75 miles above the ISS.

There may well be some footage looking down upon it, framed against the Earth, or part thereof, and maybe this might be of interest to those who have claimed (not necessarily in these forums) that the ISS is just "a light in the sky".

SpaceX is not equal to NASA.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 11:42:04 AM »
I do not mean to be dismissive, but you don't have that data ("those measurements") - nor does anyone.  If you did, and others independently repeated/confirmed your measurements then we could begin to talk about such things (which I personally would find fascinating!).  Without the measurements   - we have little to discuss except your interpretation of them should they happen to exist anywhere outside your heart and mind.
This is just another polite way of saying "I don't care how much data you have or what your measuring instruments are, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up".
The next question then would be:  Would you be willing to stake you life on what you think you KNOW?  I KNOW the earth is spherical, I've confirmed it, and on that I'm willing to bet my life on what I KNOW.  Sailors do it often.  Those who live in their mother's basement don't and frequently troll just for fun.  Do you KNOW that?
The claim that sailors bet their lives on any "fact," the earth is a globe is just plain false.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 12:17:34 PM »
The claim that sailors bet their lives on any "fact," the earth is a globe is just plain false.
I see you have no appreciation of King Neptune and how harsh of a task master he can be.  For centuries navigation at sea was based upon celestial navigation that on its very foundation assumes that the earth is a sphere.  Without accurate navigation a ship can and will run aground.  Today the GPS system is also based upon the same global earth model and electronically does about the same thing as old time sailors used to do with a map, compass and sextant.  Just take a look at the latest news of the boat that turned over near San Diego.  People died.  There are many sea mounts out in the middle of the ocean.  If a ship hits that it will run aground.  I have worked way below deck in the extreme forward bow section with only an inch of steel between me and the sea.  If the ship ran aground during those times I would surely have died.  Would you have the confidence to work in places like that on a ship if you weren't extremely confident in the navigation system and the shape of the earth it's based upon?  If you are on a ship there can be no discussion or debate upon the shape of the earth, that information is KNOWN by all crew members. 
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2021, 12:29:34 PM »
The claim that sailors bet their lives on any "fact," the earth is a globe is just plain false.
I see you have no appreciation of King Neptune and how harsh of a task master he can be.  For centuries navigation at sea was based upon celestial navigation that on its very foundation assumes that the earth is a sphere.  Without accurate navigation a ship can and will run aground.  Today the GPS system is also based upon the same global earth model and electronically does about the same thing as old time sailors used to do with a map, compass and sextant.  Just take a look at the latest news of the boat that turned over near San Diego.  People died.  There are many sea mounts out in the middle of the ocean.  If a ship hits that it will run aground.  I have worked way below deck in the extreme forward bow section with only an inch of steel between me and the sea.  If the ship ran aground during those times I would surely have died.  Would you have the confidence to work in places like that on a ship if you weren't extremely confident in the navigation system and the shape of the earth it's based upon?  If you are on a ship there can be no discussion or debate upon the shape of the earth, that information is KNOWN by all crew members.
Celestial navigation was based on the fact of a celestial sphere, not an earthly sphere.

Just stop with the BS.

Ship navigation today is still performed with Loran, which in turn was based on stuff hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.

You know all this and try to claim some level of experience not necessary for accomplishment, indicating both inexperience and little real world accomplishment.

Fast becoming a tired old joke, regardless of alt.