Moon's orientation dilema
« on: July 09, 2018, 08:28:14 PM »
OK....here goes....third time at this.

FET states the reason that the moon changes orientation when viewed from different locations is a perspective effect:

Quote
Q: Why does the orientation of the moon look the same to everyone one earth regardless of where they are?

A: It doesn't. The orientation varies depending on your location on earth. In FET this is explained by the different observers standing on either side of the moon. On one side it is right-side up, and on the other side it is upside down.

Imagine a green arrow suspended horizontally above your head pointing to the North. Standing 50 feet to the South of the arrow it is pointing "downwards" towards the Northern horizon. Standing 50 feet to the North of the arrow, looking back at it, it points "upwards" above your head to the North. The arrow flip-flops, pointing down or away from the horizon depending on which side you stand.

I have maintained in numerous posts that this is plainly wrong. Here are a few reasons:

1. Moving North to South in the arrow example assumes we can do the same with the moon. This would mean moving from one side of the moon to the other. In so doing we would pass underneath the moon and then be on the other 'dark side' of the moon. If we do not see this it is because the moon must be very far away. So distant that our location on Earth makes virtually no difference to our relative view. This is of course the real situation.

It is not possible to simultaneously be able to move around a round moon, viewing it from different sides without seeing those other sides. By definition being 'on the other side' implies seeing the 'other side' of something. The fact that we only ever see one side of the moon is because the moon is very far away in terms of the dimensions of the Earths surface. But this of course precludes the perspective effect suggested in the green arrow example.

I am still waiting for a Flat Earther to explain the flaw in this logic. I have been asked to read the FE theory on this matter but the entire FE theory as pertains to the orientation of the moon is contained in the quote above. Unless their are 'other FE theories out there. That seems to happen alot!




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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 08:37:20 PM »
1. Moving North to South in the arrow example assumes we can do the same with the moon. This would mean moving from one side of the moon to the other. In so doing we would pass underneath the moon and then be on the other 'dark side' of the moon. If we do not see this it is because the moon must be very far away. So distant that our location on Earth makes virtually no difference to our relative view. This is of course the real situation.

It is not possible to simultaneously be able to move around a round moon, viewing it from different sides without seeing those other sides. By definition being 'on the other side' implies seeing the 'other side' of something. The fact that we only ever see one side of the moon is because the moon is very far away in terms of the dimensions of the Earths surface. But this of course precludes the perspective effect suggested in the green arrow example
Let's take a step back because it's really not clear what you're trying to get at.



Let's say this coin is taped to your ceiling. From where you're standing you can look up and see it, but you're some way past the top of Lincoln's head. Then you walk forwards, pass it, and now you're standing under where Lincoln's body would be.

What is it that you expect to see, what is the contradiction in your mind?
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 09:55:27 PM »
Let's say this coin is taped to your ceiling. From where you're standing you can look up and see it, but you're some way past the top of Lincoln's head. Then you walk forwards, pass it, and now you're standing under where Lincoln's body would be.

What is it that you expect to see, what is the contradiction in your mind?

1. Past the top of Lincoln's head, looking up at the penny on the ceiling:



2. Walking forward, looking up at the penny on the ceiling:
 


3. Walking forward more, past the spot below the penny on the ceiling, bending backwards to see it on the ceiling:



4. Turning around to look up at the penny without having to bend over backwards:



5. Walking forward, back to the spot below the penny on the ceiling:



6. Walking forward back to your original spot, but bending backwards to see the penny on the ceiling:



7. Turning around to view the penny from your original spot without having to bend over backwards:




That's what I'd expect to see.

Now, how would you explain if from 1-3 and 7, the penny always looked like this:



And from 4-6, it always looked like this:



There are two prevalent Flat Earth answers:

One is that Perspective somehow accounts for the unchanging appearance. That's what the OP is addressing.

Another is that given the distances involved, something called Electromagnetic Accelerator is bending light upwards, altering what you'd think you'd see on a flat surface.

There's a third, less prevalent answer and that is the appearance DOES change as one would expect and neither of the first two explanations are necessary. That might be what your position would be, in which case you don't need to argue with the opening post since it's not addressing that.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 09:58:31 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 10:08:30 PM »
Edit: Nevermind
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 07:09:26 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2018, 12:44:46 AM »
But that's orientation in just one axis.

What I believe the opening post is getting at is the explanation for orientation in a different axis:


I don't know if that's what the OP was asking after, the "It is not possible to simultaneously be able to move around a round moon, viewing it from different sides without seeing those other sides. By definition being 'on the other side' implies seeing the 'other side' of something," just thoroughly confuses me.
On yours, my answer would be mostly analogous to the EAT situation, but I don't want to go into too much detail as I'm trying to see what it is the OP means. If it's their third time posting this (looks like the others were bound for AR) I want to make sure they get their answer, I know firsthand how frustrating it can be when a question gets ignored.
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2018, 12:50:29 AM »
You're right. The topic question isn't about the "rolling" of the moon, which has been the focus of a different topic (currently residing in The Lounge).

I'll edit that 2nd post of mine and butt out of this one, though I'm interested in the discussion.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 07:10:21 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2018, 03:14:47 PM »
Let's take a step back because it's really not clear what you're trying to get at.

IMG

Let's say this coin is taped to your ceiling. From where you're standing you can look up and see it, but you're some way past the top of Lincoln's head. Then you walk forwards, pass it, and now you're standing under where Lincoln's body would be.

What is it that you expect to see, what is the contradiction in your mind?

Let's take another step back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_the_Moon

I don't expect to see anything relevant by sticking a coin to the ceiling, as that's not analogous to the true situation.

There's no contradiction in my mind. The Moon is a globe, some 230k miles from Earth, which humankind has visited with manned and unmanned craft. My personal observations with my own telescope do not convince me otherwise. Assertions that "space travel is not real" just do not wash with me, without some firm proof to back them up.   
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2018, 04:24:33 PM »
Let's take a step back because it's really not clear what you're trying to get at.

IMG

Let's say this coin is taped to your ceiling. From where you're standing you can look up and see it, but you're some way past the top of Lincoln's head. Then you walk forwards, pass it, and now you're standing under where Lincoln's body would be.

What is it that you expect to see, what is the contradiction in your mind?

Let's take another step back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_the_Moon

I don't expect to see anything relevant by sticking a coin to the ceiling, as that's not analogous to the true situation.

There's no contradiction in my mind. The Moon is a globe, some 230k miles from Earth, which humankind has visited with manned and unmanned craft. My personal observations with my own telescope do not convince me otherwise. Assertions that "space travel is not real" just do not wash with me, without some firm proof to back them up.
I am asking the OP about a specific argument. I'm sure there are dozens of other threads that have been made about space travel, and you're perfectly capable of making your own. I don't bring my issues with RET up when they're only tangentially relevant to the subject of the thread, try doing the same.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2018, 04:44:46 PM »
I am asking the OP about a specific argument. I'm sure there are dozens of other threads that have been made about space travel, and you're perfectly capable of making your own. I don't bring my issues with RET up when they're only tangentially relevant to the subject of the thread, try doing the same.

The argument is moot, though, if the Moon is evidently not a flat item equivalent to a coin. There is no "orientation dilemma". 

You can't divorce space travel from a discussion about the appearance of the Moon, when space travel has been all around it and shows you the shape of it and its appearance from multiple angles, surely?
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2018, 04:46:42 PM »
I am asking the OP about a specific argument. I'm sure there are dozens of other threads that have been made about space travel, and you're perfectly capable of making your own. I don't bring my issues with RET up when they're only tangentially relevant to the subject of the thread, try doing the same.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2018, 04:51:23 PM »
I don't know if that's what the OP was asking after, the "It is not possible to simultaneously be able to move around a round moon, viewing it from different sides without seeing those other sides. By definition being 'on the other side' implies seeing the 'other side' of something," just thoroughly confuses me.

There you go, I can quote something with a highlight in bold too.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2018, 05:12:38 PM »
I am asking the OP about a specific argument.

So, in abbreviated form, the OP says;

This is what the Wiki says
(Wiki is quoted)
This (the Wiki) is wrong. This is why;

You can pass under an arrow on your ceiling, and then be on one side or the other of the arrow. You cannot do that with the Moon because the moon is far away. Our location on Earth makes virtually no difference to our view of the Moon. We always see the same side. This is the real situation.

(side note; the distance has been proven by travel to and from it, laser ranging, radio-wave ranging, observational techniques, and possibly other means.)

We cannot move around a globe moon without seeing a different side to that which we saw at our starting point. We only ever see one side of the moon.

(side note; This was shown to you in another thread, where I and others indicated the features)

This precludes the perspective effect suggested in the green arrow example.

The OP is waiting for a Flat Earther to explain the flaw in this logic.

===========================================

Your first response to the OP was "it's really not clear what you're trying to get at. "

So ....

Is it clear what I'm trying to get at?

If not, what do you find unclear?

If it is clear, what do you agree or disagree with?


I genuinely fail to see how you can discuss the shape of, orientation of, or other features of the Moon, without consideration of the last 59 years of lunar space travel.
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2018, 05:14:51 PM »
If you want to talk space travel, start a thread, I will not let you distract from trying to get a clear account of what someone is saying.

That's all I'm going to say until the OP returns.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2018, 05:18:40 PM »
If you want to talk space travel, start a thread, I will not let you distract from trying to get a clear account of what someone is saying. That's all I'm going to say until the OP returns.

So, you're going to ignore the questions in the first 90% of my post on the basis of what I said in the last 10%?

I know firsthand how frustrating it can be when a question gets ignored.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2018, 05:27:46 PM »
If you want to talk space travel, start a thread, I will not let you distract from trying to get a clear account of what someone is saying. That's all I'm going to say until the OP returns.

So, you're going to ignore the questions in the first 90% of my post on the basis of what I said in the last 10%?

I know firsthand how frustrating it can be when a question gets ignored.
What question? You said we only saw the same side of the moon, which I agree with and which the wiki agrees with, and which is kinda key to the whole question I asked the OP. That's not a question.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2018, 07:30:56 PM »
Tumeni put it very well. But I will reiterate in my own fashion. I will pose it as a series of yes/no answers directed at any flat earther that cares to follow the logic:

Q1. In essence the FE wiki argues that the rotation of the moon we see is a perspective effect? Y/N

Q2. The example given is of walking TO THE OTHER SIDE OF A GREEN ARROW. (The wiki is very clear about the OTHER SIDE part)? Y/N

Q3. However, if we did the same with the moon we would be on the OTHER SIDE of the moon looking at the back side of the moon? Y/N

Q4. This of course does not happen and we do not ever see the back side (or any other side) of the moon? Y/N

Q5. The reason is the moon is very far away? Y/N

Q6. The coin example and the arrow example are good examples of the perspective effect. But this cannot happen with the moon because we would need to pass to the other side of the moon and in so doing we would be looking at a completely different side of the moon? Y/N

So, as I understand this part of the theory, there is a conflict of very basic logic here that cannot be resolved. In which case, a fundamental part of the FE theory is clearly wrong. Unless the orientation of the moon can be explained for a FE model we need go no further with it. In fact, scientific logic demands that we go no further with it. The observations are too important and too clear to be ignored. There is no ambiguity.


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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2018, 07:48:36 PM »
1 Y, 2 Y, 3 N, 4 Y, 5 Y/N, 6 N

5 depends on your definition of far away, but the rest is utter rubbish and I can see why the last threads ended up in AR and fully expect this one to go the same way. Can't believe I thought you were making an actual point.
Look at the coin. By your logic standing over the head then walking to stand under it somehow shows you tails.
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Offline MCToon

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2018, 08:33:48 PM »

Q3. However, if we did the same with the moon we would be on the OTHER SIDE of the moon looking at the back side of the moon? Y/N


I think Q3 is the point of confusion.

With the penny on the ceiling near the center of the room.  Stand on one side of the room so that the penny appears to be right side up.  Then walk to the opposite side of the room, not the opposite side of the penny.  Do not bend over backwards, this will require you to turn around while you go to the other side of the room.  It will appear upside down.

Both FET and RET predict the moon to appear rotated when viewing from the northern hemi(spere/plane) versus the southern hemi(sphere/plane).

I see no dilemma with orientation.

I see problems with lunar angular size, distance, shape, illumination, position, phases, eclipses, and other topics discussed on other threads, but orientation doesn't seem to be an issue.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2018, 11:11:52 PM »
Q3. However, if we did the same with the moon we would be on the OTHER SIDE of the moon looking at the back side of the moon? Y/N

JRowe replies 'N'

Why?

If you suspend a sports ball with a small logo from your ceiling, and align it so that from one side of the room it is facing toward you, then without moving the ball, go to the other side of the room, can you still see the logo, or are you looking at the other side of the ball?
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Moon's orientation dilema
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2018, 11:14:38 PM »
Q3. However, if we did the same with the moon we would be on the OTHER SIDE of the moon looking at the back side of the moon? Y/N

JRowe replies 'N'

Why?

If you suspend a sports ball with a small logo from your ceiling, and align it so that from one side of the room it is facing toward you, then without moving the ball, go to the other side of the room, can you still see the logo, or are you looking at the other side of the ball?
And when it's not a sports ball, but a penny?
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.