21

Flat Earth Theory / Re: What on flat earth does the sun think it's playing at?!

« on: February 01, 2016, 09:12:35 AM »

Then explain when the lies end and begin. And explain how you are such an expert on lieing, particularly when it comes to government.
In short, where is your lie detector?

Have another look,  that's the Australian Government Antarctic Division's website..   The Australian Govt isn't smart enough to lie.    Every time they've tried it they get caught out.

22

Flat Earth Community / Re: How do we know the Earth is spherical?

« on: February 01, 2016, 07:01:41 AM »

In case you are too busy to actually read what NASA tells you I will post the part I am referring to:

"The color Earth images are created by combining three separate single-color images to create a photographic-quality imageequivalent to a 12-megapixel camera. The camera takes a series of 10 images using different narrowband filters -- from ultraviolet to near infrared -- to produce a variety of science products. The red, green and blue channel images are used to create the color images"

COMBINING IMAGES = COMPOSITES!!

Why so many composites?

Every digital camera does the much the same.  There are red green and blue CCD sensing elements,  so using your logic,  every digital picture ever taken is a composite, and therefore not **real**

The weather satellites use multiple portions of the em spectrum to identify different aspects of  atmospheric activity.   

In total Himawari-8 uses  16 different spectral bands,  10 of which are in the infrared.   and 6 in the visible portion of the spectrum.

23

Flat Earth Community / Re: How do we know the Earth is spherical?

« on: February 01, 2016, 06:17:15 AM »

The point the poster above is making is that if we have a legitimate space program which has sent many space ships out into space, many which have escaped earth orbit to explore the solar system, why are there so few pictures of the earth as a whole?

It doesn't make sense. That would be one of the obvious things to take when you're putting billions of dollars into a space probe with cameras on it.

There are millions of full disk images of the Earth taken from space,   Since the mid 1970's geostationary weather satellites have been taking full disk images at least every half hour or so, and the latest ones are full colour high resolution full disk images every few minutes.

My rough estimate is somewhere about  4 or 5 million full disk images of the Earth have been taken from space.

24

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: February 01, 2016, 06:11:39 AM »

My opinion is that this laser experiment is really the same water convexity experiment which has been conducted time and time again since the days of Rowbotham. It ridiculous that you ask us to "prove it again" for more concrete evidence immediately after seeing such videotaped evidence of a proof, considering that we have a library with many such observations and claims.

Perhaps you could help me out in that case,  I've yet to see such an experiment where care has been taken to establish a sight line with multiple intermediate points, and consideration given to refractive effects.

If you already have documentation on such an experiment, proving the Earth to be flat I'd be very interested.  I am only aware of such experiments proving the curvature.

PS.  The Definitive Bedford Level Experiment was carried by Henry Yule Oldham,  and it proved the curvature of the Earth.

25

Flat Earth Community / Re: Conspiracies... how long can they really last?

« on: January 31, 2016, 05:51:50 AM »

The Rosenberg case is actually a testament to how readily the public will swallow the official government story. Julius and Ethel were supposed to have effectively handed Ivan the bomb, but there's no actual evidence of atomic espionage on their part even now, let alone back when they were convicted and executed for it.

The consequences of spying is a death sentence.   

Not so. In fact, the Rosenbergs were the only American civilians executed for spying over the course of the entire Cold War.

Correct,  so the consequences for the Rosenberg's spying was a death sentence.    I note they were convicted of espionage not treason.

As far as evidence against the Rosenbergs,  there are books still being written about that case,  I wouldn't trust the official accounts, because the FBI can simply claim that they couldn't present evidence in open court for fear it would reveal the extent to which they had been able to intercept and decrypt  Soviet communications.  Instead they got confessions from co-conspirators in exchange for deals,  a suspect practice at best.

26

Flat Earth Community / Re: Conspiracies... how long can they really last?

« on: January 31, 2016, 02:38:30 AM »

the rosenbergs

I did a Google search for US Atomic Bomb secrets and couldn't find anything. The US Government seems to be doing a good job of keeping them secret from the public, regardless if one secret was transferred from one party to another at some point.

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were mercilessly executed for what they did. They were parents of two small children. The consequence for leaking a US secret is the ultimate one: Death.

I also did a search and came up with thousands of hits,  this one looked the most interesting.

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/about-me/

Here is some more on the Julius Rosenberg story  http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/10/17/riddle-julius-rosenberg/

It's not just leaking US secrets, it's supplying those secrets to the enemy.  The consequences of spying is a death sentence.   
In Australia, it's called high treason, and is a life sentence. 

27

Flat Earth Community / Re: Conspiracies... how long can they really last?

« on: January 31, 2016, 02:12:52 AM »

A leaked Top Secret document won't get very far on the internet. The US Government has the full force of the law, the compliance of media, of ISPs, of foreign nations, and near limitless finances to shut things down. What makes you think they couldn't keep something a secret if they really wanted to?

You mean like Edward Snowden  or Wikileaks.    Remember US Government is not the only force at play here,  there are other foreign governments with cyber warfare capabilities.

The only reason Snowden secrets are allowed in the press is because the NSA was breaking the law and we have a very liberal government in power who doesn't like them. The NSA was loudly complaining that the Obama Administration basically turned their back on them after the leaks happened.

If the government wanted to, they could go after the journalists. I can assure you, if anything critical like Nuclear Secrets were published those news agencies would have been shut down immediately.

Yes,  there are secrets and secrets,  some deeper than others,  and the responses would be different depending of what exactly was at stake.  Some of the wikileaks releases, were no doubt deeply embarrassing for the US government,  but perhaps not in the same league as nuclear secrets.   

28

Flat Earth Community / Re: Conspiracies... how long can they really last?

« on: January 31, 2016, 01:50:55 AM »

Well, yes, if you could convincingly prove that there is a conspiracy, it would no longer be a conspiracy. Your request is ridiculous for the reasons you stated yourself.

Umm,  do you want to rethink that statement for a minute or two...

29

Flat Earth Community / Re: Argument via Empericism

« on: January 31, 2016, 01:49:51 AM »

Empiricism is a view that all concepts originate in experience, that all concepts are about or applicable to things that can be experienced. The tenets of empiricism promotes a back to the basics approach to knowledge, where theoretical concepts are scrutinized for their applicability to the real world. Many believe that only empirical knowledge should be considered truth, as anything less is a diversion into fantasy and conjecture.

In order for a concept to be empirical it must be testable. That is, it cannot exist only in hypothesis or idea. A concept which is completely hypothetical, existing mainly in the imagination, is unemperical. Let us consider the following.

Our Environment

FET predicts that the earth is flat. To test this we need to look out our window. We will see a plane extending farther than the eye can see. - Testable

RET predicts that the earth is at such a convenient size that it creates the illusion of being flat. - Untestable

Gravitation

FET predicts that gravitation is caused by an upwardly accelerating earth. To test this we will need to stand up on the edge of our chair and walk off the edge while observing the surface of the earth carefully. The earth will appear to accelerate up towards the observer - Testable

RET predicts that “graviton particles” no one has ever seen are pulling objects towards the surface of the earth. There should be trillions of tiny graviton particles whooshing around us at every moment of the day creating the illusion of an accelerating earth. - Untestable

Movement of the earth

FET predicts that the earth is still and the celestial bodies whirl above our heads. To test this we simply need to sit on our porch for a while and watch as the sun and stars move through the sky on their own accord as the earth remains still - Testable

RET predicts that the earth is in constant motion, spinning like a top at over a thousand miles an hour at the equator, the appearance of moving celestial bodies being an illusion. – Untestable

Good post.   I agree with the philosophy,  although I'd argue about some of your examples.   

I'd probably argue the gravity is testable, and point to microgravity variations as evidence against universal acceleration.   As to helicentric vs geocentric,  there is a mechanical equivalence  between the two world views,  just a matter of where you choose the origin of the co-ordinate system.  So not easily testable,  you need to look deeper to things like global weather patterns.

30

Flat Earth Community / Re: Conspiracies... how long can they really last?

« on: January 31, 2016, 01:21:19 AM »

A leaked Top Secret document won't get very far on the internet. The US Government has the full force of the law, the compliance of media, of ISPs, of foreign nations, and near limitless finances to shut things down. What makes you think they couldn't keep something a secret if they really wanted to?

You mean like Edward Snowden  or Wikileaks.    Remember US Government is not the only force at play here,  there are other foreign governments with cyber warfare capabilities. 

But there is a deeper insoluble problem,   it is logically impossible to DISPROVE conspiracy,  you can only ever PROVE conspiracy.   

The reason conspiracy can never be disproven, is that any evidence purporting to disprove conspiracy,  could also be part of a conspiracy.   
But there has never been any proof of a conspiracy to hide the shape of the Earth, forgetting the fact that it's a pretty hard thing to hide anyway. 

So,  while I can't say there is no conspiracy,  I can say there has never been any convincing proof of a conspiracy to hide the shape of the Earth.
 

31

Flat Earth Community / Re: why dont you guys put your money where you mouth is and go see earth's curvature

« on: January 29, 2016, 06:23:12 AM »

GPS, I already said that in the link I gave you, which you obviously didn't read.

And please, saying GPS isn't a reliable source is just digging the already pretty deep hole even deeper.

It would be fairly simple to calculate the altitude from the radio signals as there's usually 5 or 6 amateur trackers receiving the signal

And of course GPS does not really exist, it's all faked since, for it to be real there must be satellites in geosynchronous orbit--in space. Space flight as you know, along with every scientific observation that contradicts "flat earth," was faked.  This also makes me wonder how I get my satellite television.

PS. You FE guys are the best metatrolls on the internet. 10/10

Sarcasm is indeed the most intellectual action a human can take within a discussion. It always makes your argument bright and clear and understandable.

See what I did there?

Here, let me do it again...

Ever heard of google? Ever heard of the ionosphere?

It's not possible at all to bounce radio and t.v. images off the ionosphere.

Also, we never had t.v. images transmitted through a clothes hanger stuck into the back of the t.v. while growing up. And digital broadcasts through the air are not happening now.

So how do you get those images on your little box? Hmm... well try turning off your little box and research.

There is a whole lot of information waiting out there and none exist in your little box you call a t.v.

Are you still wondering how your little dish get images onto your little t.v.?

Clothes hangers.... Clothes hangers... if a clothes hanger 30 years ago obtained reception, and provided a clear picture, I don't see how that little dish is any harder to comprehend.

I'd like to go into further details but I may be off topic. PM me if you'd like to know how your little dish really works.

Put a little metal bowl onto your roof and it must be satellites! It can't be anything else!

Sarcasm gotta love it!

I thought it was you....  welcome to the serious debate. 

32

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 29, 2016, 06:03:58 AM »

Your bulge on the RE model blows all curviture calculations OUT OF THE WATER, especially if standing on Lake Ponchatraun...

Let me try and answer one of your objections.

How does the equatorial bulge affect the curvature calculation?   

The equatorial bulge is 26.5 miles,   the diameter of the earth at the equator is 7927 miles.   At the poles it is  7900 miles.

The curvature calculation  ( for distances small relative to the diameter )   h =0.6661*miles²   for D=7927,   and   h = 0.6683*miles²  for D=7900,   h is height in ft.

So the horizon for an observers 5' above the road level,  or lake level  is  2.739 miles,  so they should be able to see the laser for at least 5.479 miles on the east west curvature
repeating the calculation for the north south curvature,  the distance to the horizon is 2.735 miles,  and the total distance the laser would be visible for is 5.470 miles  on the north south curvature.

So the difference is negligible. 

If you want to add the standard refraction correction, then add 1/7 to the curvature.

Seeing as you know so much about laser experiments over water,  can you point me to one where a level was established at multiple points  along the sight line.

Standing on the lake requires much voodoo magic.   A boat is easier.

33

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 12:18:59 PM »

Pongo's observation strikes me as accurate. Round Earthers have a strange sense of entitlement, and him pointing it out was both timely and humorous.

As a side note, you might want to avoid personal insults on this forum. They're not okay here.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't trying to be humorous.   I'm getting the strong impression that flat earthers don't like putting their ideas to independent experiment.

If you would care to point out where I've used a personal insult,  that was not my intent.  I'll happily apologize. 

34

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 11:37:45 AM »

Care to explain,  because if you read the thread, and followed the logical progression,  you would have understood that Pongo's comment was out of step with the discussion.

It may be out of step (I disagree that it is, but I can see why someone like you might think otherwise), but that doesn't change much. He made a very specific point with a very clear meaning, and you erroneously tried tying it to something other than the post he clearly quoted as the one he's responding to.

It's okay. We all make mistakes. Own up and move on.

Pongo took one line of a post out of context and twisted it into a false generalization about round earthers,  I am sure you can read English well enough to understand at least that much. 

"Own up and move on"?  yes you should.   All you've done is derail an interesting discussion about an experiment,   but maybe that was your intent. 

The post that Pongo responded to was this

I think the earth is a sphere so why would I want to prove it's flat?

However, I have devised an experiment that attempts to quantify the degree of curvature of the lake.
If it has flaws then I'm keen to hear them...but as you can see, nobody seems to have come up with any, and I'm confident they won't.

So therefore if the FES are serious, as a society, they should make an attempt to conduct the experiment.
It could give them all the evidence they are looking for.
If they choose not, then maybe they're not so serious about proving the earth flat after all

His response ..

I think the earth is a sphere so why would I want to prove it's flat?

Classic round-earth thought process. "I've been told that the earth is a sphere so why would I ever do anything whatsoever to verify what I've been told?"

Imagine if this applied to all fields of study:
"I think leeches cure diseases so why would I want to prove they don't?"
"I think cars are safe enough without airbags so why would I want to prove they aren't?"
"I think that lead is safe to consume so why would I want to prove that it isn't?"

And you don't see the glaring dishonesty?

35

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 09:42:28 AM »

Umm,  no that's what you did.   You just jumped in the middle of a discussion and contributed nothing of substance.   Try reading properly next time.

Classic round-earth thought process: "I made a mistake? N-no, actually you made the exact same mistake!!!"

Care to explain,  because if you read the thread, and followed the logical progression,  you would have understood that Pongo's comment was out of step with the discussion.

The entire premise of the thread is a discussion on an experimental method for determining if the earth is curved or flat.   Now re-read Pongo's statement...   

36

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 08:31:47 AM »

Right, so it sounds like you only went 1 post back and ignored the context that led up to it. I guess that explains your thought process. Try not to do that, though

Umm,  no that's what you did.   You just jumped in the middle of a discussion and contributed nothing of substance.   Try reading properly next time.
 

37

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 08:00:59 AM »

The hypothesis is:  The Earth is flat.     Now we design an experiment to prove or disprove the hypothesis,  the experiment needs to be carefully designed so as to avoid other factors which could distort the results.

How does this follow from what Pongo was responding to?

I think the earth is a sphere so why would I want to prove it's flat?

My post was a refutation of Pongo's claim that ...

Classic round-earth thought process. "I've been told that the earth is a sphere so why would I ever do anything whatsoever to verify what I've been told?"

My apologies if that wasn't clear to you.    You must not have understood the earlier posts.

38

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 28, 2016, 01:45:59 AM »

Classic round-earth thought process. "I've been told that the earth is a sphere so why would I ever do anything whatsoever to verify what I've been told?"

Not true,   The hypothesis is:  The Earth is flat.     Now we design an experiment to prove or disprove the hypothesis,  the experiment needs to be carefully designed so as to avoid other factors which could distort the results.  Factors like refraction can lead to false results,  so the experiment needs to be designed to avoid those factors.

I did some more investigation into the Pontchartrain Causeway,   and I suspect the flat sections between the humps for the shipping channels might not be long enough.  Ideally we need  something like 10 miles flat.

39

Flat Earth Community / Re: Suggestion for experiment: Lake Pontchartrain

« on: January 27, 2016, 05:34:54 AM »

Here's another idea,  that could be used for a quick check.     

One person is located on the causeway ( out of the traffic ) with a uhf-cb radio and a video camera with a good zoom lens mounted 5' above the roadway. 
A second person is in a car with a second uhf-cb radio and the laser mounted 5' above the road and pointing back at the observer,  the car then drives away from the camera.

When the stationary observer with the zoom lens can no longer see the laser,  he calls the car on the radio and  the driver notes the distance the car has travelled.   

Assuming the video camera and the laser are about 5' above the road surface and the road surface follows the water surface, more or less,  then  the laser should not be visible when the car is more than about 9-10 km or so away.   (  6 miles )

Allowing for some forward scattering and refraction, you might get a few k's more,  but not the full 38 km ( 24 miles )

So if the laser can't be seen after about  9-10 km (6 miles)  or more the earth is curved.  If the earth is flat  ( and the laser powerful enough ) the laser should be visible all the way across the 38km.

You should make sure the observer has the proper laser filter glasses, so as to avoid eye damage if he inadvertently looks at the laser directly.

Be sure to post the video on youtube.

PS  Formula used  C+R = 0.574*d²    or if you prefer 5/0.574 = 8.71 = d²,  d (miles) = 2.95 miles to the mid point.  This allows for the standard 1/7 for downwards refraction of the sight line.
So with both ends of the sight line 5' off the road surface you should get 6 miles or so.  Of course if the earth is flat, you should get all the way across, the full 24 miles.

EDIT:  Looking at pictures of the bridge, there is a rise in the roadway,  probably for shipping,  so you wouldn't actually be able to see all the way even if the earth was flat. 
http://www.thecauseway.us/ So you need to work out which side has the longest flat section before the shipping channel and see if it's long enough to do the experiment.   

40

Flat Earth Community / Re: The Ultimate Proof?

« on: January 27, 2016, 03:29:36 AM »

Thanks for the video Rdrums,
hugely interesting.

Rather than "undocumented fantasies" I found it's use of documented history and facts to support it's hypothesis refreshing.

Nicely done.

That's a twist,  I didn't pick you for one of the reptile people.   

The snow globe theory postulates that aliens built the dome,  and the theory Mark Sargent is pushing is that it's like a global Truman Show,  with the reptiles in charge.   

I find Mark Sargent's style and presentation the best and most convincing of the flat earth youtube brigade,  I don't know why it's presented under a Jeranism lead in?  Is he scamming again?