[Yonah ben Amittai]

You are of course welcome to think as you wish.

It has nothing to do with what I think, it what the Torah says.

And yes, from the Orthodox perspective you are correct. But, the Conservatives and the Reform have both changed their position, and the Orthodox are beginning to consider the matter.

People can shoehorn the passage all they want, it does not change the fact that the Torah has a ban on homosexual sex and it is supported by the Oral Law.

To be direct, the Torah as directly understood usually forbade sex out of marriage, and since no provision was made for gay marriage, that meant effectively that gay sex wasn't permitted. BUT, and again, that is the key word, you will note that there is no forbidding of women lying with women. If God was forbidding gay sex, wouldn't it have been easier to just say "don't be gay"? I am not arguing how the text was interpreted. I agree that historically, gay sex has been forbidden in Judaism. This is not what is being disputed. What is being disputed is whether GOD forbade it or not. It is my position that the proper interpretation of the text is that he did not. This is also the interpretation of the Conservative (from now on called USCJ) and Reform (from now on called URJ) Movements. The Orthodox are even beginning to ask whether their traditional interpretation of the text is in line with what God intended. In Christianity, the Episcopal Church (from now on called ECUSA) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (from now on called ELCA) have come to the same conclusion as USCJ and URJ.

The reason Christianity is indeed relevant is simple: Christianity in the United States is 86% of the population. And the mainline churches, of which ECUSA and ELCA have been among the most influential, have all been bouncing ideas off the liberal streams of Judaism since the founding of said movements within Judaism. URJ is considered "Mainline" as far as Judaism goes, in this country. USCJ is essentially also "Mainline". Most Jews in the USA that choose to affiliate with a synagogue or temple do so in one
of these two movements. Orthodoxy accounts for only 10% of American Jews who affiliate. So the Mainline Protestants and the Mainline Judaisms have been bedfellows (even if they haven't wanted to admit it) for the last 150 years or so.

I've already said that at present, my views are considered "liberal". I don't dispute that. But I expect that within five to ten years, they will become standard thought within Judaism (and within mainline Christianity as well). In fact, within mainline Protestant Christianity, the Episcopal Church already blesses gay unions, and I expect others to follow. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America already allows the ordination of non-celibate gay ministers (as does the Episcopal Church).

Irrelevant.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

I know only what I read about convergent evolution from the Wikipedia article, but I can see that Thork is NOT correct. Even I can see that much. Sorry, Thork. I don't mean to be nasty, but I think you need to reread the article.

[beardo]

Is the Earth flat?

[DuckDodgers]

Wouldn't another way to look at the whole "man laying with a man but no mention of women" be that they were largely overlooked at that time.  How many women does God speak to in the Bible?  I can't think of any off the top of my head, he is always speaking to men.  If men are his target audience then it makes sense he wouldn't really mention anything about women.  Are there any restrictive laws specifically about woman as there are with men and their beard?

[Yonah ben Amittai]

OH MY GOD! DUDE! You seriously need to read what you call the Old Testament! There are HUGE amounts of material on women. The laws on Niddah (purification after menstruation, and other matters of female purity) alone cover PAGES and PAGES of material. Judaism goes APESHIT over that kind of thing! Its in the Hebrew Bible, and covers a few volumes of the Talmud alone! WOW! And yes. God talked to Eve. He talked to Samuel's mother Hannah. Those are just two examples. There are many more. I am not going to go digging for examples at the moment, but seriously, go get a Bible, and have a look-see.

[Lord Dave]

Wouldn't another way to look at the whole "man laying with a man but no mention of women" be that they were largely overlooked at that time.  How many women does God speak to in the Bible?  I can't think of any off the top of my head, he is always speaking to men.  If men are his target audience then it makes sense he wouldn't really mention anything about women.  Are there any restrictive laws specifically about woman as there are with men and their beard?

Or...
Lesbians are hot.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Wouldn't another way to look at the whole "man laying with a man but no mention of women" be that they were largely overlooked at that time.  How many women does God speak to in the Bible?  I can't think of any off the top of my head, he is always speaking to men.  If men are his target audience then it makes sense he wouldn't really mention anything about women.  Are there any restrictive laws specifically about woman as there are with men and their beard?

Or...
Lesbians are hot.

ROTFLMFAO!!!

[Rushy]

Why doesn't the bible restrict womens' lower beard?

[Yonah ben Amittai]

So where were we? Any further thoughts on previously posted material? Any questions on new topics relating to Judaism in general, serious inquiries only, please?

[Lord Dave]

So where were we? Any further thoughts on previously posted material? Any questions on new topics relating to Judaism in general, serious inquiries only, please?

Why does God give Jews so many rules and everyone else so few?

[Shane]

Why don't Jews adopt a hat that fits?

[Yonah ben Amittai]

THAT is an excellent question! Thank you. There are several arguments about why Jews were given the Torah, with its 613 Commandments, vs non-Jews, with the Seven Laws of Noah only.

Essentially I think it comes down to the following:

Observe:

1. God created man. Man then fell, and was kicked out of Eden (however you wish to interpret that, literally, metaphorically, etc).
2. God saw that man became so evil that he destroyed most of us. Noah and his family lived, and God swore never to destroy man again. He blessed man through Noah, and gave man universal laws.
3. But man could not even keep those laws. Man continued to fuck up.
4. So this time, God decided to have a special nation. He started with Abraham. Abraham was given two children. One was promised a nation, but not land per se. The other was promised a land, namely, Eretz Israel.
5. The Hebrews, even with their own nation, STILL were not faithful to God. So God gave them more and more laws to make them a people set apart from others. By doing this, by making us more obedient, he defined us further as a people, as a nation. Jews became distinctive. By making us a people set apart, he assigned us a special destiny. Just as he gave us a priesthood (the Cohanim and the Levites) to serve the Temple, so did he make us a Priesthood, a Holy Kingdom unto the nations. But just as the Cohanim and the Levites have more commandments (ie, some of the 613 apply only to them and not to the rest of us) to follow than other Jews, so do Jews have more commandments to follow than other persons.

This is the best explanation I have for you. I don't know if that satisfies you or not. But there you go.

[Lord Dave]

So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Rather nastily said, but essentially accurate. NOW, mind you, there are other explanations. By now, I am sure you have realised that Jews can't just have one opinion on anything. Some believe that God offered the Torah to every nation, but only the Jews accepted it. Some few even believe that God threatened us at Sinai with Mt Sinai itself being uprooted and dropped on our heads if we did NOT  accept the Covenant. Of  course, such is a view is fringe.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Have to catch a nap. Be back soon.

[Ghost of V]

So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.

No, someone else got the about a promise of Land wrong, and thought it applied to them.

[Ghost of V]

So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.

No, someone else got the about a promise of Land wrong, and thought it applied to them.

So? It's still boils down to God initially causing the problem. I guess God didn't understand his creations as well as he thought, because he should have known that giving a special group of people a "special place" would cause strife and turmoil. What a dumbass God was.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.

No, someone else got the about a promise of Land wrong, and thought it applied to them.

So? It's still boils down to God initially causing the problem. I guess God didn't understand his creations as well as he thought, because he should have known that giving a special group of people a "special place" would cause strife and turmoil. What a dumbass God was.

No, i don't think God was a dumbass. I think he expects us to find ways out of sticky little "situations".

[Ghost of V]

No, i don't think God was a dumbass. I think he expects us to find ways out of sticky little "situations".

That he causes?