Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1100 on: October 23, 2014, 10:09:57 PM »
I'm getting a pretty strong sense that you believe you'll be rewarded with an afterlife for doing menial things such as declining to eat bacon.

Actually, even assuming I believe in an Afterlife, and I don't say that I do, whether I eat bacon or not is not going to determine the eternal future of a person.

We are Jews. We saw God on Mt. Sinai. Its not that Moses claimed to be inspired. Its that we know that 2 million people, our ancestors, saw God, and heard him speak.

Quote
20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'
How does 2 million people hear God yet also claim that if they hear God, they'll die?

Read the text completely. They did indeed hear the voice of God.

"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

Later, you are correct that the people were afraid that if God spoke to them, they would die. One can imagine that they were terrified at hearing the voice of God. I think most reasonable people would be.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1101 on: October 23, 2014, 10:26:01 PM »
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?

2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.

3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1102 on: October 23, 2014, 10:33:46 PM »
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?

I am not so sure they would ACTUALLY die, but only that they THOUGHT they would.

2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.

"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord... 19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

I think it is understood by both Jewish and Christian authorities that God first said that the people would hear him speak to Moses, and then he spoke to Moses, and the people heard him.

3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?

I'm not so sure that that was the relevant part. I think it was more relevant that he did speak. I mean, the Torah is FULL of what God said to Moses. Does it really matter what he said that particular instant?


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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1103 on: October 23, 2014, 10:43:42 PM »
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?
I am not so sure they would ACTUALLY die, but only that they THOUGHT they would.



2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.
Quote
"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord... 19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

I think it is understood by both Jewish and Christian authorities that God first said that the people would hear him speak to Moses, and then he spoke to Moses, and the people heard him.
Saying what he will do then not having even a reaction to the words God said to the 2 million people (they didn't want to hear him speak) is rather odd.

Quote
3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?
I'm not so sure that that was the relevant part. I think it was more relevant that he did speak. I mean, the Torah is FULL of what God said to Moses. Does it really matter what he said that particular instant?
Does it matter what the first words the Jews heard God speak is?  Umm.... yeah.  Kinda a lot actually.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1104 on: October 23, 2014, 10:51:14 PM »
You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.

I've already indicated what Laws non-Jews are expected to follow, and that obedience to such renders them to be as righteous as any Jew. Of course, you don't know the name of the scientist.
The name is Ron Wyatt, I couldn't remember his name because it's useless information which can be looked up in 5 minutes.
You mentioned that eating bacon won't determine someone's access to Paradise, then why follow that commandment if it's pointless?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1105 on: October 23, 2014, 11:02:16 PM »
You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.

I've already indicated what Laws non-Jews are expected to follow, and that obedience to such renders them to be as righteous as any Jew. Of course, you don't know the name of the scientist.
The name is Ron Wyatt, I couldn't remember his name because it's useless information which can be looked up in 5 minutes.
You mentioned that eating bacon won't determine someone's access to Paradise, then why follow that commandment if it's pointless?
Because he's a mindless drone to God.  As he said: Because God said so.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1106 on: October 23, 2014, 11:23:17 PM »
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1107 on: October 23, 2014, 11:35:40 PM »
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?
I am not so sure they would ACTUALLY die, but only that they THOUGHT they would.



2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.
Quote
"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord... 19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

I think it is understood by both Jewish and Christian authorities that God first said that the people would hear him speak to Moses, and then he spoke to Moses, and the people heard him.
Saying what he will do then not having even a reaction to the words God said to the 2 million people (they didn't want to hear him speak) is rather odd.

Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Quote
3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?
I'm not so sure that that was the relevant part. I think it was more relevant that he did speak. I mean, the Torah is FULL of what God said to Moses. Does it really matter what he said that particular instant?
Does it matter what the first words the Jews heard God speak is?  Umm.... yeah.  Kinda a lot actually.

See above.

You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.

I've already indicated what Laws non-Jews are expected to follow, and that obedience to such renders them to be as righteous as any Jew. Of course, you don't know the name of the scientist.
The name is Ron Wyatt, I couldn't remember his name because it's useless information which can be looked up in 5 minutes.

Well, the names of the men I quoted were not that, so, carry on.

You mentioned that eating bacon won't determine someone's access to Paradise, then why follow that commandment if it's pointless?

I never said it was pointless. I merely said that in and of itself, it is not enough to make or break one's eternal existence, if such there be.

An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

I have certainly heard the dispute over the number of people who left Egypt. I personally am uncertain what to think of the number. At present I use the figure "2 million" rather loosely, for any number up to 2 million, but I have resources on my computer that question the number as well. I am prepared to accept the number provisionally, until convinced otherwise.


Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1108 on: October 23, 2014, 11:41:31 PM »
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1109 on: October 23, 2014, 11:44:02 PM »
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.

Care to elaborate?  Also, learn to quote properly.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1110 on: October 23, 2014, 11:56:05 PM »
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.

Care to elaborate?  Also, learn to quote properly.

How many times does one HAVE to elaborate? in 56 pages, I think I've elaborated enough. Modern day liberal so-called "biblical scholarship" attempts to treat the Bible as an ordinary book. It can't be done. The book itself makes certain truth claims about itself. Either those claims are true or they are false. It is that simple. If they are true, then Judaism is a religion that is inspired of God, divinely approved of, and guided rightly. If the truth claims are false, then why are we doing this? We happen to belong to one of the most hated groups on Earth. If the Bible is NOT true, then why are we risking our necks?

If the Bible is true, then the whole world should be Jewish and Noahide. For example, either Jesus is or is NOT the messiah. He can't be both. Either Mohammed is or is not a Prophet. He can't be both. I actually respect other religions that make claims to universalism. I don't agree with them, but at least they are honest.

Just because I think Jesus is NOT the messiah doesn't mean I have to be nasty to a Christian. I don't mind Christians. I am married to one. We don't often talk about religion, and we choose to respect each other's choice. We are not having children, so there are no worries about how to raise them.

But ultimately, it comes back to the Jewish Bible. Either the book's truth claims are right or they are wrong. They can't be analysed from a human perspective, because the book makes divine claims for itself. It is that simple. To compare, it would be like me, an historian, trying to evaluate the work of a mathematics professor. I am not equipped for the task, nor could I ever be. Its out of my paygrade. So there you are.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1111 on: October 24, 2014, 12:22:30 AM »
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1112 on: October 24, 2014, 12:26:38 AM »
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1113 on: October 24, 2014, 12:30:39 AM »
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.

Care to elaborate?  Also, learn to quote properly.

How many times does one HAVE to elaborate? in 56 pages, I think I've elaborated enough. Modern day liberal so-called "biblical scholarship" attempts to treat the Bible as an ordinary book. It can't be done. The book itself makes certain truth claims about itself. Either those claims are true or they are false. It is that simple. If they are true, then Judaism is a religion that is inspired of God, divinely approved of, and guided rightly. If the truth claims are false, then why are we doing this? We happen to belong to one of the most hated groups on Earth. If the Bible is NOT true, then why are we risking our necks?

If the Bible is true, then the whole world should be Jewish and Noahide. For example, either Jesus is or is NOT the messiah. He can't be both. Either Mohammed is or is not a Prophet. He can't be both. I actually respect other religions that make claims to universalism. I don't agree with them, but at least they are honest.

Just because I think Jesus is NOT the messiah doesn't mean I have to be nasty to a Christian. I don't mind Christians. I am married to one. We don't often talk about religion, and we choose to respect each other's choice. We are not having children, so there are no worries about how to raise them.

But ultimately, it comes back to the Jewish Bible. Either the book's truth claims are right or they are wrong. They can't be analysed from a human perspective, because the book makes divine claims for itself. It is that simple. To compare, it would be like me, an historian, trying to evaluate the work of a mathematics professor. I am not equipped for the task, nor could I ever be. Its out of my paygrade. So there you are.

To say it is beyond your pay grade is to have your conclusion as a premise.

1. The bible is either divinely inspired or it is not.
2. Because the book claims to be divinely inspired I do not have the expertise to tell otherwise.

C. The bible is divinely inspired.

This is basically what you are saying and it is utterly flawed. I can most definitely make some assessments about the divinity of the bible. Something supernatural should be obvious merely by its complete disconnection from the natural.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1114 on: October 24, 2014, 12:32:21 AM »
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.

So if God said: go forth and rape all the babies with razor blades, your position is that that would be irrelevant?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1115 on: October 24, 2014, 12:33:34 AM »
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.
No, a rational person would start to question the validity of the book they're reading.  This is a plot hole man and if it's factual, it shouldn't HAVE plot holes.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1116 on: October 24, 2014, 12:42:25 AM »



To say it is beyond your pay grade is to have your conclusion as a premise.

1. The bible is either divinely inspired or it is not.
2. Because the book claims to be divinely inspired I do not have the expertise to tell otherwise.

C. The bible is divinely inspired.

This is basically what you are saying and it is utterly flawed. I can most definitely make some assessments about the divinity of the bible. Something supernatural should be obvious merely by its complete disconnection from the natural.

Something supernatural might not be obvious. For example, if one is a Christian (I am not), Jesus was supernatural, but he certainly did not appear to be for some 30 years of his life.

Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.

So if God said: go forth and rape all the babies with razor blades, your position is that that would be irrelevant?

One with a brain realises that the creator does not recommend raping babies with razor blades, even though I'll admit the Bronze Age could be brutal, but still not that brutal.

Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.
No, a rational person would start to question the validity of the book they're reading.  This is a plot hole man and if it's factual, it shouldn't HAVE plot holes.

That simply makes no sense. If God was speaking to Moses, there would be no reason for the 2 million people to hear what he said. Since the message was not intended for them all to hear, why would you assume they would all hear it. You and I are having a discussion in this thread. Do you therefore assume that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this website is going to be privy to what we are saying to each other?

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1117 on: October 24, 2014, 12:43:26 AM »
Jesus Christ you need to learn how to quote. Enter your response below the [/quote] tag.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1118 on: October 24, 2014, 12:45:28 AM »
Jesus Christ you need to learn how to quote. Enter your response below the
tag.
[/quote]

Yes, that did get a little complicated. My apologies.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1119 on: October 24, 2014, 12:49:00 AM »
Jesus had an angel announce his birth from a virgin. Three magi followed a star on God's command to witness it. What about that could be mistaken for natural?