Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2018, 09:14:03 PM »
Thank you for your reply, Stack. You see that link to an actual discussion, people conversing and trying to figure things out is much more of what I was looking for. That discussion is interesting and raises another couple of good questions, as well as calling into question of how Perspective is the cause of sun sets and sun rises. I believe Law of Perspective is being misrepresented in the FET, as while with something a plane flying over head, with perspective you'll always have to look up at something above you, just like you'll always have to look down at something on the ground. The FET Sun is above you, therefore with the Law of Perspective(from how I understand it, as I'm no expert), cannot cross the perspective line, it'll always appear above you. But that's not what I observe when I watch a sun set or sun rise. Then there is also the problem with if the sun is small and only 3000 miles away, when it appears over the horizon at sun rise it'll appear smaller than when its directly over head at Noon. 

Agreed, I haven't seen a distinct and cogent rebuttal from FET as to how the supposed 'Law of Perspective' explains the sun below-lit clouds at sunrise or sunset. As it stands, I'm guessing, from an FET standpoint, the phenomena is unknown. Which you will find for many observable celestial and other occurrences. From the other thread, I think this is a great example; Mt. Ranier (14k ft) is significantly lower than the FET height of the sun - If the sun maintains it's altitude of 3000 miles throughout its path, how does it cast a shadow upward on to the clouds? Perhaps someone with a better understanding of FET will weigh in.



Having watched more than a handful of YouTube Videos on the subject, I know not a credible source, but I've seen this come up in most, if not all of them. They mention Airy's Failure as proof the world is stationary. But this is not the case, Airy's Failure proved that Ether didn't exist. Simply put we believed that because Light is a wave like sound, that it needed a medium to travel through, thus Ether was proposed, Airy's Failure proved that Ether did not exist which led to the Theory of Relativity. Airy's Failure had nothing to do with whether the Earth was moving or not. Even so you claim that Airy's Failure as a means to reject the Theory of Relativity.

This is a whole other topic of discussion that leads down a path of Michelson-Morley, Coriolis, Universal Acceleration, I could go on. Best to break this out into a separate thread.
I've witnessed this phenomena multiple times as I live in the Pacific Coast Mountains and travel a lot. I've also seen this in the Cascades Rocky's and Sierra Nevada along with coastal mountains looking west at the sunset.
Driving west in the evening on a cloudy day, I'm above the clouds and see blue sky and sun shine. A few minute later the sun drops below the clouds and my headlights come on. A few more minutes pass and I drop 2,000 feet in elevation which puts me below the clouds, my headlights go off and I can see the sun once again at the horizon.
As I watch the sun drop below the visible horizon(vanishing point) my head lights come on again and I see the bottom of the clouds illuminated by the sun light. I also look up and see the bottom of jets illuminated along with there contrails casting shadows upward.

Some more honest questions.
#1 Flat Earth has continents to the far west and far east edges. How can we leave the west coast of the west continent flying or sailing west, and not hit the ice wall as it's very close, but some how spin a circle and end up on the east coast of the far east continent.
#2 All RE navigational equipment and technology is fooled by FE forces into believing we are travailing in a straight when, (on FE), we are allegedly spinning a circle, what are these forces and how do they work?     
 

Earthman

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2018, 01:11:39 AM »
Thank you for your reply, Stack. You see that link to an actual discussion, people conversing and trying to figure things out is much more of what I was looking for. That discussion is interesting and raises another couple of good questions, as well as calling into question of how Perspective is the cause of sun sets and sun rises. I believe Law of Perspective is being misrepresented in the FET, as while with something a plane flying over head, with perspective you'll always have to look up at something above you, just like you'll always have to look down at something on the ground. The FET Sun is above you, therefore with the Law of Perspective(from how I understand it, as I'm no expert), cannot cross the perspective line, it'll always appear above you. But that's not what I observe when I watch a sun set or sun rise. Then there is also the problem with if the sun is small and only 3000 miles away, when it appears over the horizon at sun rise it'll appear smaller than when its directly over head at Noon. 

Agreed, I haven't seen a distinct and cogent rebuttal from FET as to how the supposed 'Law of Perspective' explains the sun below-lit clouds at sunrise or sunset. As it stands, I'm guessing, from an FET standpoint, the phenomena is unknown. Which you will find for many observable celestial and other occurrences. From the other thread, I think this is a great example; Mt. Ranier (14k ft) is significantly lower than the FET height of the sun - If the sun maintains it's altitude of 3000 miles throughout its path, how does it cast a shadow upward on to the clouds? Perhaps someone with a better understanding of FET will weigh in.



Having watched more than a handful of YouTube Videos on the subject, I know not a credible source, but I've seen this come up in most, if not all of them. They mention Airy's Failure as proof the world is stationary. But this is not the case, Airy's Failure proved that Ether didn't exist. Simply put we believed that because Light is a wave like sound, that it needed a medium to travel through, thus Ether was proposed, Airy's Failure proved that Ether did not exist which led to the Theory of Relativity. Airy's Failure had nothing to do with whether the Earth was moving or not. Even so you claim that Airy's Failure as a means to reject the Theory of Relativity.

This is a whole other topic of discussion that leads down a path of Michelson-Morley, Coriolis, Universal Acceleration, I could go on. Best to break this out into a separate thread.

It's the Suns' reflection of the Ocean surface. If Earth were a ball, this would be a daily occurrence even without a body of water present.
 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 01:14:42 AM by Earthman »

Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2018, 01:21:39 AM »
Thank you for your reply, Stack. You see that link to an actual discussion, people conversing and trying to figure things out is much more of what I was looking for. That discussion is interesting and raises another couple of good questions, as well as calling into question of how Perspective is the cause of sun sets and sun rises. I believe Law of Perspective is being misrepresented in the FET, as while with something a plane flying over head, with perspective you'll always have to look up at something above you, just like you'll always have to look down at something on the ground. The FET Sun is above you, therefore with the Law of Perspective(from how I understand it, as I'm no expert), cannot cross the perspective line, it'll always appear above you. But that's not what I observe when I watch a sun set or sun rise. Then there is also the problem with if the sun is small and only 3000 miles away, when it appears over the horizon at sun rise it'll appear smaller than when its directly over head at Noon. 

Agreed, I haven't seen a distinct and cogent rebuttal from FET as to how the supposed 'Law of Perspective' explains the sun below-lit clouds at sunrise or sunset. As it stands, I'm guessing, from an FET standpoint, the phenomena is unknown. Which you will find for many observable celestial and other occurrences. From the other thread, I think this is a great example; Mt. Ranier (14k ft) is significantly lower than the FET height of the sun - If the sun maintains it's altitude of 3000 miles throughout its path, how does it cast a shadow upward on to the clouds? Perhaps someone with a better understanding of FET will weigh in.



Having watched more than a handful of YouTube Videos on the subject, I know not a credible source, but I've seen this come up in most, if not all of them. They mention Airy's Failure as proof the world is stationary. But this is not the case, Airy's Failure proved that Ether didn't exist. Simply put we believed that because Light is a wave like sound, that it needed a medium to travel through, thus Ether was proposed, Airy's Failure proved that Ether did not exist which led to the Theory of Relativity. Airy's Failure had nothing to do with whether the Earth was moving or not. Even so you claim that Airy's Failure as a means to reject the Theory of Relativity.

This is a whole other topic of discussion that leads down a path of Michelson-Morley, Coriolis, Universal Acceleration, I could go on. Best to break this out into a separate thread.

It's the Suns' reflection of the Ocean surface. If Earth were a ball, this would be a daily occurrence even without a body of water present.
It is a daily occurrence without being near the ocean. I live in the Pacific Coast mountains and witness this phenomena all the time as I mentioned in the post above.  I've witness this in the Cascades and Sierra's where there is a half dozen mountain ranges and the central valley between the ocean on the mountains. . Look out into the deserts of Nevada from Tahoe and see this. 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 01:28:28 AM by Curiosity File »

Earthman

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2018, 01:28:09 AM »
There is a huge body of water present, west of you.  That's why it happens.

Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2018, 01:29:28 AM »
There is a huge body of water present, west of you.  That's why it happens.
Read my post above I added to
Also this happens with the morning sun in the opposite direction.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 01:33:14 AM by Curiosity File »

Earthman

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2018, 01:37:19 AM »
There is a huge body of water present, west of you.  That's why it happens.
Read my post above I added to
Also this happens with the morning sun in the opposite direction.

If this happens daily and the locations are as you say, there will be tons of pictures. We will be waiting for pictures, locations, times and landmarks to prove direction and to see if a body of water is or is not present.

Thanks,
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 01:45:41 AM by Earthman »

Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2018, 01:55:23 AM »
There is a huge body of water present, west of you.  That's why it happens.
Read my post above I added to
Also this happens with the morning sun in the opposite direction.

If this happens daily and the locations are as you say, there will be tons of pictures. We will be waiting for pictures, locations, times and landmarks to prove direction and to see if a body of water is or is not present.

Thanks,

You can clearly see the angle of shadow and view of the sun is not constant with reflection off the surface of the ocean.
It would be more to the point for you to prove it's reflection since you brought it up.
Do I need to post a picture of a desert sunset reflecting off the bottom of clouds. NO. That's a ridicules request. It would be to your advantage to get out in the world an see for yourself, or at least google search sunset and sun raise pictures from anywhere in the world. 

Here I'll do it for you
https://www.pexels.com/search/sunset/
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 02:02:14 AM by Curiosity File »


Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2018, 02:34:43 AM »
There is a huge body of water present, west of you.  That's why it happens.

In fact the OP picture is of a Mt Rainier SUNRISE.
https://geekologie.com/2011/10/sky-shadows-mt-rainier-at-sunrise-castin.php

Blew your "reflection off the ocean" theory out of the water. Pun intended.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 02:47:08 AM by Curiosity File »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 03:36:11 AM »
In fact the OP picture is of a Mt Rainier SUNRISE.

Lots of pics of Rainier casting this sunrise shadow:


Earthman

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2018, 06:05:12 PM »
There is a huge body of water present, west of you.  That's why it happens.

In fact the OP picture is of a Mt Rainier SUNRISE.
https://geekologie.com/2011/10/sky-shadows-mt-rainier-at-sunrise-castin.php

Blew your "reflection off the ocean" theory out of the water. Pun intended.

Oh, I see, you forget "Snow" is highly reflective. You are going to have to do much better than that.

Find a better argument please!

Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2018, 08:41:39 PM »
There is a huge body of water present, west of you.  That's why it happens.

In fact the OP picture is of a Mt Rainier SUNRISE.
https://geekologie.com/2011/10/sky-shadows-mt-rainier-at-sunrise-castin.php

Blew your "reflection off the ocean" theory out of the water. Pun intended.

Oh, I see, you forget "Snow" is highly reflective. You are going to have to do much better than that.

Find a better argument please!

Earhman to start you do NOT present an argument or opposing theory. You give no evidence or explanation of your claims.
We proved it was NOT a body of water hundreds of miles away that was reflecting sunlight onto the clouds and  mountain in cause casting a shadow.
Now you're saying SNOW somehow casts a shadow? I agree snow reflects light, but that doesn't explain the shadow.
You're are going to have to do better than that.
You need to bring some evidence to the table to back your claims. 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 08:44:54 PM by Curiosity File »

Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2018, 09:04:24 PM »
Mount Shasta is another place you can observe this phenomena and it stands alone, no snow anywhere but on the mountain itself, especially in the summer months.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/comments/5aqp60/sunrise_over_mt_shasta_mt_shasta_california_oc/

https://www.twenty20.com/photos/c9c0345c-42d6-463c-aa54-5fd93eabfd19
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 09:08:56 PM by Curiosity File »

Curiosity File

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2018, 09:31:28 PM »
Here is a good pic of Shasta that shows snow, actually glaciers in ares that never melt while there is no snow anywhere else.
https://hikemtshasta.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/img_3085-custom.jpg?w=639&h=&zoom=2

source

https://hikemtshasta.com/2015/01/27/mount-shasta-sunrise-gallery/
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 09:33:51 PM by Curiosity File »

Offline ChrisA

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2018, 10:39:44 AM »
I too have come here for a discussion regarding flat earth hypothesis (until there is a model that can answer all questions, it is not a theory).

There are also flat earth models in which gravity is real and does exist in the newton/Einstein way.

Even though these explanations require a globe? If this was true then gravity on a flat earth would only point down in the centre. Dropping a ball while at the equator would cause the ball to go sideways and down.
Now, I may not have the best eyes, but this is not what is observed in reality.

You also seem to refer to a different flat earth model for each question answered. If each one cannot answer all the questions, then each one is incorrect.

totallackey

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2018, 01:34:20 PM »
Earhman to start you do NOT present an argument or opposing theory. You give no evidence or explanation of your claims.
We proved it was NOT a body of water hundreds of miles away that was reflecting sunlight onto the clouds and  mountain in cause casting a shadow.
Now you're saying SNOW somehow casts a shadow? I agree snow reflects light, but that doesn't explain the shadow.
You're are going to have to do better than that.
You need to bring some evidence to the table to back your claims.
A couple of facts concerning the area surrounding Rainier.

It is a land with multiple rivers, streams, lakes, and an ocean not too far away.

It is a land surrounded by a national park which receives the highest yearly averages of snowfall in the lower 48.

Now, some facts concerning reflected light of the Sun off of water and snow.

One can receive sunburn from sunlight reflected off both the surfaces of water and snow.

One can go blind looking directly at sunlight reflected off surfaces of water and snow.

Reflected sunlight casts powerful shadows.

totallackey

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2018, 01:42:05 PM »
Mount Shasta is another place you can observe this phenomena and it stands alone, no snow anywhere but on the mountain itself, especially in the summer months.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/comments/5aqp60/sunrise_over_mt_shasta_mt_shasta_california_oc/

https://www.twenty20.com/photos/c9c0345c-42d6-463c-aa54-5fd93eabfd19
Who wrote that snow needs to be nearby?

Offline JCM

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2018, 01:44:50 PM »
Mount Shasta is another place you can observe this phenomena and it stands alone, no snow anywhere but on the mountain itself, especially in the summer months.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/comments/5aqp60/sunrise_over_mt_shasta_mt_shasta_california_oc/

https://www.twenty20.com/photos/c9c0345c-42d6-463c-aa54-5fd93eabfd19
Who wrote that snow needs to be nearby?

You are suggesting that snow needs to be nearby to make these mountains  shadows go upward?  So, if shown that these mountains produce the same effect with no snow, what then? Can you make a diagram of the sun under the horizon shining on snow reflecting upwards to the clouds and wouldn’t this happen anywhere there would be snow and a large object?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 01:46:43 PM by JCM »

totallackey

Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2018, 02:13:30 PM »
Mount Shasta is another place you can observe this phenomena and it stands alone, no snow anywhere but on the mountain itself, especially in the summer months.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/comments/5aqp60/sunrise_over_mt_shasta_mt_shasta_california_oc/

https://www.twenty20.com/photos/c9c0345c-42d6-463c-aa54-5fd93eabfd19
Who wrote that snow needs to be nearby?

You are suggesting that snow needs to be nearby to make these mountains  shadows go upward?
No.

I am not suggesting that.
So, if shown that these mountains produce the same effect with no snow, what then?
Perhaps one would first need to consider the reflectivity of other surfaces.
Can you make a diagram of the sun under the horizon shining on snow reflecting upwards to the clouds and wouldn’t this happen anywhere there would be snow and a large object?
Why would I need to make a diagram of the Sun under the horizon?

I do not believe the sun ever goes under the horizon.

Offline JCM

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Re: Some honest questions from a Round Earth believer.
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2018, 06:05:12 PM »
Mount Shasta is another place you can observe this phenomena and it stands alone, no snow anywhere but on the mountain itself, especially in the summer months.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/comments/5aqp60/sunrise_over_mt_shasta_mt_shasta_california_oc/

https://www.twenty20.com/photos/c9c0345c-42d6-463c-aa54-5fd93eabfd19
Who wrote that snow needs to be nearby?

You are suggesting that snow needs to be nearby to make these mountains  shadows go upward?
No.

I am not suggesting that.
So, if shown that these mountains produce the same effect with no snow, what then?
Perhaps one would first need to consider the reflectivity of other surfaces.
Can you make a diagram of the sun under the horizon shining on snow reflecting upwards to the clouds and wouldn’t this happen anywhere there would be snow and a large object?
Why would I need to make a diagram of the Sun under the horizon?

I do not believe the sun ever goes under the horizon.

So, if the reflectivity is causing the phenomenon, would you say that every tree or for sake of argument... "some trees" beside a large body of water to their west would have  upward slanting shadows at sunset against a larger object to their east?  Surely that's an easy thing to experimentally show.