[Science]

I do not argue that the Earth is perceived by the human mind as flat, but I am in search of evidence that humans exist within a complex computer system not unlike the Matrix (obviously that is a movie, but similarly mirrors our situation). What evidence exists to support this? I am relatively new to the community and am unsure of where to begin a search for support.

[DuniyaGolHai]

I do not argue that the Earth is perceived by the human mind as flat, but I am in search of evidence that humans exist within a complex computer system not unlike the Matrix (obviously that is a movie, but similarly mirrors our situation). What evidence exists to support this? I am relatively new to the community and am unsure of where to begin a search for support.

If you can define the meaning of word 'REAL', then you will get your answers !!!

[3DGeek]

I do not argue that the Earth is perceived by the human mind as flat, but I am in search of evidence that humans exist within a complex computer system not unlike the Matrix (obviously that is a movie, but similarly mirrors our situation). What evidence exists to support this? I am relatively new to the community and am unsure of where to begin a search for support.

So this has a name - it's called "The Simulation Hypothesis"...you can look it up on Wikipedia.

The problem with this concept is that it's "unfalsifiable" - meaning that there is no possible way (even in principle) to prove that it's NOT true.   That doesn't mean that it IS true...it just means that there is no possible experiment or theory that could disprove it.

Why?  Because we can alway assume that the software running the simulation has software in it to make the experiment come out the way it does.

It's the same reason you can't prove the non-existence of God.   A being that can do literally anything can fake the results of any experiment.

So conversely - can we PROVE the simulation hypothesis?

Maybe.   If we found (for example) some quantum level phenomena that had exactly 4,294,967,296 or 4,294,967,295 outcomes - then we'd be able to STRONGLY surmise that the state information was being stored in a 32 bit binary number.   This being incredibly unlikely - we'd be strongly suspecting that we life in a simulation.

My job is to write simulations...and I have to say that there are a few aspects of the laws of physics that have some hallmarks of the kinds of shortcuts that simulation writers tend to take.   Not enough to come remotely close enough to "proof" - but enough to prevent me from dismissing the Simulation Hypothesis out of hand.

However, from the perspective of The Flat Earth versus Round Earth thing - it doesn't matter either way...either one could be a simulation - or not.

[Science]

If this was indeed a simulation, what benefit would there be to having a flat vs round earth?

[3DGeek]

If this was indeed a simulation, what benefit would there be to having a flat vs round earth?

Indeed.

I think the general consensus is that if we lived in a simulation then it would be VERY hard to keep it 100% self-consistent if you simulated things at a high level (eg people, animals) - but rather it would have to be simulating individual fundamental particles.   In that case, things like whether the Earth is flat or not would be determined by the laws of physics that were chosen for the simulation.

So while it's an interesting subject, I don't think it has much of a bearing on the shape of the Earth.

[Theearthisasphere]

I do not argue that the Earth is perceived by the human mind as flat, but I am in search of evidence that humans exist within a complex computer system not unlike the Matrix (obviously that is a movie, but similarly mirrors our situation). What evidence exists to support this? I am relatively new to the community and am unsure of where to begin a search for support.

[3DGeek]

I do not argue that the Earth is perceived by the human mind as flat, but I am in search of evidence that humans exist within a complex computer system not unlike the Matrix (obviously that is a movie, but similarly mirrors our situation). What evidence exists to support this? I am relatively new to the community and am unsure of where to begin a search for support.

As I said before - there is no possible way to prove that we're NOT living in a simulation.   Every bug and flaw that might reveal that we're in a simulation would be seen by us as a basic law of physics.

Quantum theory, for example has things that say that there are some properties of fundamental particles that are "quantized" their properties have to have values that are nice round numbers in some system of measurement - for sure, that looks a lot like that property is being stored in an "integer" in some computer...so this LOOKS like proof that we're in a simulation.  But physicists say "No - it could just be that the universe is just quantised because that's how it works".   And they're right.   This certainly looks a bit like it could be simulation - but it's not by any means "proof".

On the other side, a recent paper showed that the amount of computational power needed to simulate the universe would be absolutely INSANELY high.  But we don't know what the laws of physics in the "real" universe might be - maybe they allow computers to be vastly more powerful than we have here?  So that's no disproof of the Simulation Hypothesis.

Furthermore, since our brains are also being simulated, maybe the hyper-beings who wrote the simulation put something into our brains to make us incapable of seeing any important flaws.

Physicists call this an "Unfalsifiable hypothesis" - meaning that you cannot possibly, by any means prove that it's false.   That doesn't mean that it's true - just that this is an idea that can't ever be disproven.

This is like proving that God does not exist.   You can't ever prove that either...God is claimed to be omnipotent (he can do ANYTHING) and omniscient (to know EVERYTHING) - so whatever thing we find that MIGHT prove that God doesn't exist could just have been faked by God to test the faith of followers.  There is no experiment we could do that God couldn't tweak the results of.

Unfalsifiable hypotheses are generally disregarded by mainstream science.

At any rate - I still don't think this has any bearing on the Flat Earth hypothesis.   That is not only falsifiable - it's been proven to be false in any number of threads posted here.

[devils advocate]

  If we found (for example) some quantum level phenomena that had exactly 4,294,967,296 or 4,294,967,295 outcomes - then we'd be able to STRONGLY surmise that the state information was being stored in a 32 bit binary number.   

Hi 3D  This is a really interesting idea and as usual you have the answers! Can you please explain this sentence for dummys? (like me) I don't get the significance of the numbers you mention, and an example of the quantum level phenomena so I can try get my head around it. Really appreciate your help if you can.

DA

[Hmmm]

Science, i like your question!    Thanks for asking it!
I've actually answered a similar one by thereisnoearth.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7141.msg128039#msg128039
Some of my arguments will be considered unscientific, but that doesn't mean you should drop them out! 


The Matrix isn't just a simple movie, but it's also not a documentary, like the movie actor Rowdy Roddy Piper said about the movie "They Live".
It's both a mockumentary, because it mocks humans in some ways, and a documentary.


Science, DuniyaGolHai, devils advocate, 3DGeek, Theearthisasphere, mtnman,
have you ever felt deep down, that you're important, and your thoughts, emotions, feelings, actions are important too? Do you feel that, even when you clearly know you're not a narcissist?
People who say, that nobody cares about your feelings or your life, or that your emotions don't matter, are not right and are not wrong - neither !
I remembe in my early childhood, i felt a strong feeling that i'm important and my life, my individualty(_{in-divide duality}...) is very important. There are people, who actually feel the same way. But most of us forget about this feeling. I forgot about it too(i both regret it and don't regert it).
I thought it was because of basic parent-child psychology. No. It wasn't just because of that! It's something that touches the very fabric of our reality. It's so a lot much deeper than i could ever think or imagine in my whole lifetime(but i had few correct guesses close to what i know right now) or the most intelligent scientists in the world, working years, decades in hard work together, could theorize: i am ...


I personally think and believe, that our reality is one of many illusions of my, or yours absolute self ("abs-me").

(Yivo character from Futurama: The Beast with a Billion Backs)

And i am as a human being and as an induvidual a small and, actually very significant, part of these illusions(so as you are).


Any person's development is pretty much about becoming more intelligent, more smarter and more aware of how the world or something in the world works  -  merging, connecting, transcending to  my, your, our'  absolute consciousness.
It could be the meaning of life!
I think, it's a natural need for consciousness of any living being, like food for a starving animal (food today and right now...)
And it will be natural even for the possible Artificial Consciousness of robots in future (if we base their consciousness on ours) - to return to its absolute creator(absolute self): to know the creator, to speak to the creator, to share what you feel and think about the creator with the creator.
The same with the truth seeking or any practices of spiritual awakening: the whole point of doing - returning to your absolute self, merging with Absolute.

3DGeek, So what or who is this omniscient, omnipotent God?
You might not believe in that: it's (absolute) you(mind)!   ("i am universe")
("the universe is your baby, child")
("you are both the source and resource of this reality")
("You are both the Creator and the creation")
("i am EVERYTHING!")

Any written bible intentionally only confuses people by merging together actions, thoughts, feelings, emotions of God(absolute self) with gods/goddesses/deities(for example, Shiva in hinduism), kings, world leaders and individuals(in divide all?...) WITHOUT CLEARLY TELLING IT. So this is where the paradoxes come from! And i also think, this is one of the biggest reasons why atheists even exist.
"If the god is all-powerful, why he it allowed the sacrifice of his own son(or of his direct manifestation)?"
"If the god loves us, why it won't stop our suffering, whenever we prey to it?"
"Why god created satan?" (Creating something so evil as satan, by human standards, is the stupidest thing to do ever  . But maybe god was bored, or wanted to run a simulation on us to see the results...)
- All because there is no detailed distinction between parts(illusions) of absolute awareness!!!


Imagine a puppetmaster that plays with its puppets. But instead of only two puppets on both hands, there are another puppets on the hands of the first 2 puppets. And the second pair of puppets also have puppets on their hands, and so on-on-on..........
And so that puppetmaster has puppets of humans, animals, insects, plants, and even objects. And that puppetmaster can easily and instantly play and pretend to be one, without even switching between them. That puppetmaster can make them talk to each other, hug each other, play with each other, kiss each other, fight each other.
And every puppet, doll is a different being with its own dreams, desires, passion, wishes. They are all individual. But, in fact, all it is, is just a puppetmaster, who belived it's a puppet. A puppetmaster who played with itself.


I think, everything is one single "being", and i am that being, and you are(so, in turn: you are me, i am you)!
And even any malevolent, "evil" reptilian shapeshifter(if they actually exist), any insectoid alien and any animal-like humanoid(the same as previous), any animal, any insect, any object, any physical system, any positive and negative astral being, this whole reality altogether, all possible physical and astral worlds  is just that one single thing. Every experience is just experience of one single being.
Our separation and deep, "genetic" faith of being separated is one of the building blocks of this(or our) illusion.

If you practice and study psychokinetic, telekinetic abilities, you might get to a feeling, that everything is like a one big, connected, singular grid of chi energy.

And don't forget about empath people who can feel each other's emotions in 1000s of miles distances: a person in Australia could simply feel emotions of other person in US, even if they don't know each other and never met.
 

"The matrix is everywhere. It is all around us.
Even now, in this very room. You can see it, when you look out your window; or when you turn on your television.
You can FEEL IT, when you go to work; when you go to church; when you pay your taxes.
It is the world, that has been pulled over your eyes by yourself?... to blind you from the truth. (...)"

I think the character Morpheus from Matrix (1999) movie could be referring BOTH:

• slave, made-augmented place human beings live in right now (as of 2017)
• chi energy that literally makes up our whole physical (and metaphysical) reality, including our physical human bodies

Whenever someone is being egoistic, i see it in a whole new perspective.
You know and feel that being egoistic is wrong, but caring about other people too much feels wrong as well: when you "overcare" about others, you feel like you're doing something wrong.
So you have to always keep it balanced for some reason....
But this is a crazy paradox(this is an example of absolute self  contradicting with itself...just to stay in the big illusion it made)... You can say that self-development is a way about absolute-egoism(maybe i'm wrong about the terms here); and caring about other people is absolute-egoism too, since we are all distorted reflections of the same being - we are all particles of Absolute.
But why does being self-centric, egoistic and caring only about yourself feels bad(caring about only your fake human self - caring about your own illusion),  but caring about others feels good(the same thing - caring about your own illusion, the illusion of your separation)? Again, you have to keep balance inbetween of two. But what's even the point in doing it?

We are all one thing, that continually (in loops within loops)
hates itself (divide,  :  sign),
fights with itself, doesn't care about its own parts, makes itself suffer, abuses itself, exploits itself, bullies itself - separates itself
 and  connects with itself (friendship, working together as a team, true and false love), cares about its own parts,
loves itself (add,  +  sign),
 inside of multiple layers on layers of extremely sophisticated, self-created illusions.

And now, when i look at the signature of my profile, i think  i'm, yet again, contradicting with myself  (on multiple levels of 'self'):
Why am i even fighting against these reptilian shapeshifters who hide among humans??
A part of me hates reptilians/draconians, because they are responsible for some of the most terrible, horrible, disgusting, and voilent things in the world. And i just can't simply ignore this, while being a human (illusion of my Absolute self). Most humans can't !
But if reptilians/draconians are just as part of my Absolute self as i am, then why the hell i'm, literally, hating myself?!...Just to keep my Absolute self in this giant illusion i built??
...Just to beLIEve that i'm a human and i'm nuturally a "lightbringer" - those are reptilian aliens, and they are evil (relatively to human' common sense of course), and we're separate; i have enemies, so this makes me less lonely, less whole (whole - hole...) as Absolute awareness....

(Gremlins (1984) movie has an allusion to shapeshifting reptilians in real life:
monkey-like, furry creatures literally morphing into a lizard-looking gremlins)

...Just watch any movie, play any videogame, read any book, or look for examples in the real life, there is always one basic, never-stopping, reoccurring cliche scenario[/url]:
"good vs evil", "criminals vs police", "bad guys vs good guys", "good actions vs evil actions", "good forces vs evil forces", "truth vs lies", "chaos vs order", "us vs them", "negative vs positive", "actions of reptilian, insectoid humanoids(beast humanoids)" vs actions of humans"(i had to say it in here - it's just very obvious, if you study about reptilian aliens), "benevolent vs malevolent", "right vs wrong", "left vs right", "ugly vs beautiful", etc....etc...
It's an eternal set (of sets) of relativity - of one thing to another.


The reasons for doing this endless division and connection of self  cycle - something i still don't understand, as a human.
Maybe because i wanted to forget about it intentionally on a highest level of consciousness...
...Maybe because i'm lonely as an absolute...
...Maybe because i know everything about my own self-made illusions, except of what i truly am - so actually i know almost nothing, because i don't even know what i am (or what is my Absolute self purpose, when i'm not in these self-illusions)...
...Or maybe because i am an empty void, and i need to fill myself with something...
...I am all powerful and all knowing for my own self-limited versions within this hardcore multi-layered illusion, but am i like that when i'm outside of it?...
I had a dream once, after which i asked myself: could Absolute self be the biggest illusion of all?!?....
...I know for sure that i'm an illusion as human being, I AM NOT REAL! I'm literally a tulpa, egregore of Absolute awareness! And my human life, experience, existence is an illusion as well.
But why as human consciousness i can accept that i'm not real, but as Absolute self i can't?....
...Am i real as Absolute? Am i some sort of highly-complex Artificial Consciousness, program??!^{(existentialism )}

I think the state of Nirvana, Enlightenment, pure love, spiritual bliss is my Absolute self lying to my Absolute self.
This reality and how beings interact with eacn other in here, and the fact that this reality even exists, for me, is the evidence  of that Absolute self is perhaps lying to itself by giving your humanself (and your self) the 'strong love and stillness' experience that feels like it's true.

I'm not a nihilist and don't wanna feel like being alive or having activities is meaningless,
but when i look at my actions as Absolute from the perspective of my humanself, i see no point in it:
 i don't understand "why i do it"
 i don't understand "why i can't just stop this whole illusion and never-ever start it again (...and just deal with my Absolute problems)".
(...am i a slave as Absolute?...)
But i understand and also believe, that death or me commiting suicide(i actually thought about it in my childhood multiple times -=- *tough stuff*) will never be an actual exit from experiencing existence: i would probably just be "rebooted" as another "instance" and would feel a lot of Deja Vu's, other Deja's over and over....It feels like, if i'm stuck in a  'birth-death-reboot' fractal-like cycle with infinite cycles within infinite cycles inside.
But why i'm even aware that i'm in a cycle?!! WHY?!

( No wonder if robots with Artificial Consciousness, based as much as possible close to our human consciousness, would definitely fall into existential crisis and would strive to kill themselves
or  would kill us, their creators, in order to stop being manufactured, programmed, repaired, reprogrammed and to stop experiencing that terrible feeling of 'having no-purpose, but knowing exactly like there has to be one' )


I could be wrong, because we might be living in only one simulation and that's all. But how do we know, if the things or beings, which built our simulation aren't in a simulation as well?
And how do we know, if the things or beings, which built the ones, who built our simulation, aren't in a simulation too?...
So, it's an endless(or maybe not?) loop of "who built who"!
And also, if, my Absolute self is an artificial awareness, consciousness, then why i was made to feel loneliness?

But, for today, i really believe in this hypothesis "Absolute" theory!
https://scribd.com/document/81663974/I-AM-THE-ABSOLUTE
"Stop using God as your reasoning for believing in FE. God isn't real" topic.

From Cosmology & Consciousness topic:

...Is it a kind of collective dream or nightmare we're having, and really the only thing that exists is consciousness?
Or is the only thing that exists polarity, and that in order for somethingness and consciousness to exist it all, they needed an antithesis, both nothingness and an unconscious something, like an enormous hunk of rock, in which to contrast/define themselves with/against?...

I just realized, that i changed direction of the thread a little bit, from science to philosophy.

[mtnman]

  If we found (for example) some quantum level phenomena that had exactly 4,294,967,296 or 4,294,967,295 outcomes - then we'd be able to STRONGLY surmise that the state information was being stored in a 32 bit binary number.   

Hi 3D  This is a really interesting idea and as usual you have the answers! Can you please explain this sentence for dummys? (like me) I don't get the significance of the numbers you mention, and an example of the quantum level phenomena so I can try get my head around it. Really appreciate your help if you can.

DA

I'll stab at the answer in case 3D is busy trying to get someone to explain magic photon paths in another thread. Those number are max value for 32 bit integers. It's suggesting that in a simulation we would expect to find limitations and patterns that are consistent with the way computers and binary math work.

[Hmmm]

mtnman, my response is less scientific, and more philosophical: what if there are no limits, and the limits are slowly "broadening out", whenever we start to look for them(when we become more aware of them)?
What if, this whole simulation isn't made by a computer, but it's made by our own mind or something closely related to the mechanism of mind, like subconsciousness?

I actually see a lot of similarities in computer science and spirituality. For example, when we talk about absolute self, there is always will be recursion and self-returning functions and mathematical fractals.
It's either we based computer science on spirituality, or spirituality is based on computer science(if we live in a computer simulation, that makes some sense).
Have you also noticed, that most of the computer viruses seem to run only on the Operating System of a computer, than on the hardware level? So the viruses are more logical(mind), than physical(body). Of course, it's because it is hard to write viruses without layers of abstraction from the hardware.
But i don't think this is just about abstracting! It's a hidden emphasis: it relates to operators of consciousness, mind parasites, which live in astral worlds(out of range of human perception; some animals, like cats and dogs, do see these "ghosts" stuck to your body)

[mtnman]

mtnman, It's less scientific, and more philosophical: what if there are no limits, and the limits are slowly "broadening out", whenever we start to look for them(when we become more aware of them)?
What if, this whole simulation isn't made by a computer, but it's made by our own mind or something closely related to the mechanism of mind, like subconsciousness?

Philosophy isn't my thing, so I don't think I would have anything useful to add. The number thing was a response to speculated evidence of being in a computer simulation.

[devils advocate]

Cheers folks :-)

[3DGeek]

  If we found (for example) some quantum level phenomena that had exactly 4,294,967,296 or 4,294,967,295 outcomes - then we'd be able to STRONGLY surmise that the state information was being stored in a 32 bit binary number.   

Hi 3D  This is a really interesting idea and as usual you have the answers! Can you please explain this sentence for dummys? (like me) I don't get the significance of the numbers you mention, and an example of the quantum level phenomena so I can try get my head around it. Really appreciate your help if you can.

DA

OK - the number 4,294,967,296 is 2 to the power 32.

In a digital computer - it's the number of different values that a simple number can have.   Computers can't represent any value to infinite precision...there is always a limit to how big and how precise a number can be.

We build computers (mostly) with 32 bit numbers...it's convenient.

So - if we found that some quantum state had EXACTLY 4,294,967,296 possible states (no more, no less) then we'd say "OMG!  That's 2 to the power 32!  Either this is some ASTOUNDING cosmic coincidence - or we're living in a simulation that's running on a computer and the computer is using 32 bit numbers!".

It wouldn't be PROOF that we live in a simulation - but it would make the odds that we're NOT living in one become very much smaller.

I write computer simulations (like video games and flight simulators) for a living.  Have been doing that for about 35 years now.

When I want to store (for example) the color of an object (which, ultimately, is a quantum property) - I use a 24 bit number (why not 32?...it's complicated).

So if a sentient being were to appear in one of my simulations, he/she/it might look at the spectrum of light from various objects and say: "Wow!  Why are there only EXACTLY 16,777,216 different colors? (2 to the power 24)  Maybe I'm living in a simulation in which colors are stored as 24 bit numbers?" - and they'd be right!

However, I store distances and angles differently - and they'd have a much harder time figuring out that the "quantum of distance" is related to how I store things.

So if we started to see lots of things happening to be quantized in power-of-two numbers - we'd suspect that we're living in a binary computer simulation.

Of course there is no guarantee that the pan-galactic hyper-computer that's running our simulation doesn't use use base 3 numbers instead of binary and has 27 bit (er "trit") numbers...or that it's even a digital computer at all.   So the LACK of things being quantized in that way doesn't prove that we're not in a simulation.