Max_Almond

Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2018, 10:10:54 AM »
That's why flat earthers won't attempt to answer the question of Polaris's altitude, even though it's far easier than working out the sun's.

As for taking the angles to the sun to figure out the make-up of the diskworld...you can do it, but (if I remember rightly) you end up with a planet about 1.7 million miles in diameter!

Hence why they needed to invent 'bendy light'.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 03:15:21 AM by Max_Almond »

Offline edby

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2018, 09:44:33 PM »
Do we need to discuss if there are 360 degrees in a circle? If so the forum become meaningless.
The old 'math sez' argument. Have you tested every circle to make sure there are 360 degrees in it? This is just a meaningless proof on paper, nothing to do with reality, move on.

Offline SiDawg

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2018, 01:12:35 AM »
I haven't cut every cake in the world but I know they can all be cut in to eight slices :P

360 degrees is essentially an "arbitrary" mathematical decision to split a circle in to a number of even parts. We know that the number "360" exists, and we know a concept of "equal" so we know can make 360 equal divisions...

If we take three cities which are each on consecutive latitude lines, 30, 45, and 60 degrees: the question is not whether those lines are an equal distance apart, the question is are those cities actually on those points and are those cities an equal distance apart.

So yeah if those distances are in doubt then the way they constructed the graph is in doubt, however i would suspect that if you start with the opposite assumption, and assume that all the lines should intersect, then that would give you a "ratio" of distance between different spots on the earth. I suppose as the OP i have to go away and do that work myself dont I lol argh i can't really be bothered... Anyone else? But I'm assuming it's going to show us things like "the distance between france and london is the same as london to new york".... and us REers will say "that's crazy, we know thats not true, the world is not flat" and the FEers will assumedly say "well we know the world is flat, so that must be the true distance", if we get to THAT point... then we can begin to construct a flat earth based on those distances right? (at which point i'm guessing the FE will just say "how do we know those original measurements were correct"...

It would really help if there was a consensus between flat earthers about an acceptable method to measure distance, and thanks Edby for proposing the triangulation method... That's the sort of thing yall need to agree on, and then go out and do. That would require quite a bit of time though so I'm thinking it will be hard to get off the ground. There's no point RE doing the work as it won't be believed :D
Quote from: Round Eyes
Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

Offline edby

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2018, 06:46:29 PM »
I haven't cut every cake in the world but I know they can all be cut in to eight slices :P

360 degrees is essentially an "arbitrary" mathematical decision to split a circle in to a number of even parts. We know that the number "360" exists, and we know a concept of "equal" so we know can make 360 equal divisions...

If we take three cities which are each on consecutive latitude lines, 30, 45, and 60 degrees: the question is not whether those lines are an equal distance apart, the question is are those cities actually on those points and are those cities an equal distance apart.

So yeah if those distances are in doubt then the way they constructed the graph is in doubt, however i would suspect that if you start with the opposite assumption, and assume that all the lines should intersect, then that would give you a "ratio" of distance between different spots on the earth. I suppose as the OP i have to go away and do that work myself dont I lol argh i can't really be bothered... Anyone else? But I'm assuming it's going to show us things like "the distance between france and london is the same as london to new york".... and us REers will say "that's crazy, we know thats not true, the world is not flat" and the FEers will assumedly say "well we know the world is flat, so that must be the true distance", if we get to THAT point... then we can begin to construct a flat earth based on those distances right? (at which point i'm guessing the FE will just say "how do we know those original measurements were correct"...

It would really help if there was a consensus between flat earthers about an acceptable method to measure distance, and thanks Edby for proposing the triangulation method... That's the sort of thing yall need to agree on, and then go out and do. That would require quite a bit of time though so I'm thinking it will be hard to get off the ground. There's no point RE doing the work as it won't be believed :D
Thank you for thanking me. The old picture below shows how it works. You work out the base length of the triangle using a very long extendable ruler ('chain'). Then you work out the two angles between the two points to a 3rd point, and knowing this you can work out the length of the two other sides. Then, knowing the size of this triangle, you can work out the size of a third triangle based on the points of the first. And so on, working all the way down the coast of Spain.

The diagram was from a French experiment to determine the 'arc of the meridian', the length between two different points on the same longitude. This was financed through the French desire to have the meridian pass through Paris (boo) rather than London (hurrah).  London won (hurrah).

Tom Bishop has claimed we don't know the distance from London to Paris. Fair enough but we do know the distance from Paris to Majorca!!!


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Offline MCToon

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2018, 07:47:37 PM »
Turns out someone has already done what the OP wanted to do.  This video was made by a flat earther.  He used airports, published distances between the airports, used flight times to confirm the relative accuracy of the distances between the airports.

I've watched the first two videos so far, it looks like he has several more videos documenting the process.  I don't subscribe to the FE model but, I'm always open to listening with an open mind.  If his map works, he's got something really solid.

He makes some really high claims about this process:

"[take all the international airports] and we line them up and triangulate the positions between each airport to get the most accurate flat earth map that's ever been created.  In fact, probably, this map is going to be the most accurate one ever made.  And I think that this could prove, beyond all doubt, that is is a flat earth because once you've triangulated all these relative positions of these airports, the it's, it's, you can't do that on a globe if it fits the flat earth.  This will offer possibly the greatest proof of all that we do live on a flat earth when this map is finished."

It will be interesting to see what his results are.

I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

Offline edby

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2018, 08:51:01 PM »
I followed this series of videos until he got to the part where he found there were two Australias. Then he realised there was some 'empty space' and had to fold the flat surface, inadvertently proving RE.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2018, 03:19:27 AM »
Turns out someone has already done what the OP wanted to do.  This video was made by a flat earther.  He used airports, published distances between the airports, used flight times to confirm the relative accuracy of the distances between the airports.

I've watched the first two videos so far, it looks like he has several more videos documenting the process.  I don't subscribe to the FE model but, I'm always open to listening with an open mind.  If his map works, he's got something really solid.

He makes some really high claims about this process:

"[take all the international airports] and we line them up and triangulate the positions between each airport to get the most accurate flat earth map that's ever been created.  In fact, probably, this map is going to be the most accurate one ever made.  And I think that this could prove, beyond all doubt, that is is a flat earth because once you've triangulated all these relative positions of these airports, the it's, it's, you can't do that on a globe if it fits the flat earth.  This will offer possibly the greatest proof of all that we do live on a flat earth when this map is finished."

It will be interesting to see what his results are.


It is interesting to note that TigerDan925 is no longer a flat-earther and of course gets castigated by jeranism etc.
Have a look at this series of his videos:
          Flat earth could be a big deception? Liars Scared. MAP SCAM exposed!!! TigerDan925
          Flat Earth Deception Part 2. Exposing Myself & others, TigerDan925 etc.
That caused a bit of a stir in the flat earth YouTube community! TigerDan925 is definitely persona non grata there now.

Flat-earthers most certainly should never research the subject too deeply and with an open mind.
Cikljamas (odiupicku on YouTube) is a similar case. He did careful curvature experiments and convinced himself that the earth was a Globe, albeit a stationary one and he's still very anti-NASA and space missions.
He now posts videos like:
          ERIC DUMBAY'S 201st PROOF-make it viral or stay dumb, odiupicku
          Eric Dumbay's 202nd proof-make it viral or stay dumb, odiupicku
and mirrors Wolfie6020's "Flat Earth" videos like:
          JUST WATCH THIS in silent awe - part 3, odiupicku
So flat-earthers, be warned, don't look too deeply into this stuff.
 

Offline Mark_1984

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2018, 05:50:41 AM »
That's the first converted flat farther I've heard of :o

So Tom, back to the original question.  Why don't you do what this chap did, and use the mountain of available data in the form of flight times, distances, aircraft speeds (Oh yes, the aircraft designers AND the pilots do know what speed a plane flys at) and produce your own flat earth map? 
There's a well known equation, speed = distance/time or distance = speed * time.  I'm sure you're not going to argue the validity of that equation?

Concerned about the effect of wind?  Well, take the east/west flights and the west/east flights and work out the average.  That'll give you an answer which is not 100% accurate, but near enough to prove/disprove your flat earth map. 

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2018, 08:10:02 AM »
That's the first converted flat farther I've heard of :o

So Tom, back to the original question.  Why don't you do what this chap did, and use the mountain of available data in the form of flight times, distances, aircraft speeds (Oh yes, the aircraft designers AND the pilots do know what speed a plane flys at) and produce your own flat earth map? 
There's a well known equation, speed = distance/time or distance = speed * time.  I'm sure you're not going to argue the validity of that equation?

Concerned about the effect of wind?  Well, take the east/west flights and the west/east flights and work out the average.  That'll give you an answer which is not 100% accurate, but near enough to prove/disprove your flat earth map.
You will note that no-one convinced either TigerDan925 or cikljamas/odiupicku that the earth was not flat. They had to convince themselves.
Cikljamas/odiupicku is certainly a good experimenter and in trying to find better evidence for the flat earth instead found enough to convince himself that the earth could not be flat. Mind you he's still a  ;) pain-in-the-neck ;) with his geocentric arguments on https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/.

And you've already seen how TigerDan925 convinced himself while trying to make an accurate flat earth map.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2018, 08:34:58 AM »
That's the first converted flat farther I've heard of :o

Me too. Interesting. And he did so by doing exactly what this thread suggests, trying to create a map and realising it isn't possible.
The only way to cling to flat earth belief is to make crazy assertions that airlines don't know how fast their planes are going so don't really know the distance between places, despite them reliably getting people around the globe every day. Long haul flights have those "time to destination" maps which show you where you are at all times and clearly take real time data because I've been watching them when we've had to circle before landing and the path shows that happening, they're not just representations of where the plane is.

It's telling that the people who are most entrenched on here are the ones who refuse to do any experiments or take any empirical measurements themselves. Any attempt at making a flat earth map would show that the earth cannot be flat.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2018, 02:56:48 PM »
The Flat Earth movement adopted a bi-polar model in the early 1900's after the discovery of the South Pole. You can read about it in Lady Blount's works.

Many people still think that the Monopole model is possible, and have explanations for what is going on with those flights. You can YouTube it.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 05:58:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2018, 03:21:01 PM »
The Flat Earth movement adopted a bi-polar model in 1918 after the discovery of the South Pole. You can read about it in Lady Blount's works.

Many people still think that the Monopole model is possible, and have explanations for what is going on with those flights.
This is not about bipolar or monopolar models. It's about creating a map consistent with the distances.
http://rsnr.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/62/4/355

Quote
You can YouTube it.

Why on earth? This stuff has been understood for hundreds of years. Google anything to do with 'triangulation'.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 03:22:58 PM by edby »

Offline Mark_1984

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2018, 05:30:09 PM »
I'm sorry, but Youtube is no longer acceptable as an argument or reason.  They don't have empirical evidence that is peer reviewed behind them.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2018, 05:37:02 PM »
Didn't you guys just literally link us to a YouTube video to try to show something?

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Offline AATW

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2018, 05:41:00 PM »
Didn't you guys just literally link us to a YouTube video to try to show something?
I think YouTube videos are fair game for both sides, BUT then need to be scrutinised, they're not going to carry the weight of peer reviewed scientific publications.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2018, 05:46:07 PM »
Didn't you guys just literally link us to a YouTube video to try to show something?
Sorry, is it only FEers who are allowed differing opinions on things? TFES hasn't set up any sort of "acceptable evidence" for the fora, so people are bound to disagree on what is. I'm personally with AATW, I'm game for anything, but the same level of scrutiny most be applied. No playing favorites, or confirmation bias.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2018, 06:04:19 PM »
The Flat Earth movement adopted a bi-polar model in the early 1900's after the discovery of the South Pole. You can read about it in Lady Blount's works.

Many people still think that the Monopole model is possible, and have explanations for what is going on with those flights. You can YouTube it.

Oddly the people of earth adopted a round earth model after the discovery of around earth.
Do you have a citation for this sweeping generalisation?

Offline SiDawg

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2018, 02:35:19 AM »
The Flat Earth movement adopted a bi-polar model in the early 1900's after the discovery of the South Pole. You can read about it in Lady Blount's works.

So, this?:

(from https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7548.0)

This exercise applies no matter what flat earth map you believe in right? Incidentally: I've flown Melbourne AU to LA USA (and back): I did not fly over the rest of the world to get there.

Also planning on travelling from Melbourne to Hawaii later in the year: that'll be interesting right? Should be 60% of the time/distance according to RE... according to that map it should be FURTHER than LA, about 115% of the distance? I'll let you know: I'll take photos if you like!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 02:42:42 AM by SiDawg »
Quote from: Round Eyes
Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »
Didn't you guys just literally link us to a YouTube video to try to show something?
Sorry, is it only FEers who are allowed differing opinions on things? TFES hasn't set up any sort of "acceptable evidence" for the fora, so people are bound to disagree on what is. I'm personally with AATW, I'm game for anything, but the same level of scrutiny most be applied. No playing favorites, or confirmation bias.

Which will never happen, as out of the window goes EnaG straight away, and along with it all of his ridiculous hypotheses

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Guide to Creating a Flat Earth Map
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2018, 04:01:15 PM »
The Flat Earth movement adopted a bi-polar model in the early 1900's after the discovery of the South Pole. You can read about it in Lady Blount's works.

So, this?:

(from https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7548.0)

This exercise applies no matter what flat earth map you believe in right? Incidentally: I've flown Melbourne AU to LA USA (and back): I did not fly over the rest of the world to get there.

Also planning on travelling from Melbourne to Hawaii later in the year: that'll be interesting right? Should be 60% of the time/distance according to RE... according to that map it should be FURTHER than LA, about 115% of the distance? I'll let you know: I'll take photos if you like!

This bipolar model doesn't fix the flight problems, it just changes them to a different set of impossible-to-explain flights.  It also doesn't explain the edge of the earth problem as well as the ice-wall solution.  You also get several more problem like the path of the sun/moon, seasons, etc.  The Pac-Man solution* goes past assumptions into fantasy.

The bipolar model is much more difficult to explain and can be confidently discarded.

*Pac-Man solution suggest the sun/moon travel across the face of the flat earth then tunnel instantaneously to the other side of the flat earth.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect