Offline troolon

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Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: January 28, 2022, 10:45:57 PM »
Hello,

I believe to have found a fully working flat earth model. Anything that can be proven by physics can also be proven in it.
It's very similar to the bendy light/electromagnetic acceleration theory.
All details are on my website including animations of day/night/seasons: https://troolon.com.
But yes, i believe a working flat earth model has finally been developed.

Feel free to have a look.
Troolon

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2022, 08:43:28 PM »
Hello,

I believe to have found a fully working flat earth model. Anything that can be proven by physics can also be proven in it.
It's very similar to the bendy light/electromagnetic acceleration theory.
All details are on my website including animations of day/night/seasons: https://troolon.com.
But yes, i believe a working flat earth model has finally been developed.

Feel free to have a look.
Troolon
And how about meaaured distances?

Offline jimster

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2022, 08:03:40 PM »
Unless you explain the curved light and the distortion of distances (per Gauss' Remarkable Theorem), can you really call it a "working model"?

That's why FE says nobody knows the distances over the oceans (per Tom Bishop), and the Electromagnetic Acceleration FAQ page cites "unknown forces with unknown equations" to explain the bending light. It is why all the maps in the FAQ have wrong distances.

So basically, the FE position is that light bends in exactly the way it needs to for FE but we don't know how or why and we can't know the info necessary to determine the the shape of the earth by distance measurements. Interestingly, this does not prove FE, the earth could be any shape, including round, and we can never know.

Oh, won't someone please figure out the exact way the light is bending and figure out how to measure the distances over the oceans? Perhaps we can never know?
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2022, 10:52:34 PM »
- Distances check out. The model has a special distance metric so Australia's width for example is correct.
- The equations for bended light rays are on my site. https://troolon.com
  In fact i can model anything globe-physics can on a flat earth it's fully equivalent.
-  Fermat's principle explains it i think. Light takes the fastest path, and because of the warped distance metric it checks out.

I wholeheartedly agree the earth can have any shape and we'll never know.
But it can now be shown flat is a possible shape and physics still works when it does.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 11:44:03 PM by troolon »

Offline jimster

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2022, 02:56:36 AM »
Can you make a graphic with the sun 93 million miles away and straight light path? Can you make a graphic of a globe map where all the distances and direction match observed? There are many many of these, I think you can. RE geometry works with straight light rays to explain day/night. Works without unexplained light bending.

The circumference of 80 degrees north or south is much less than at the equator. How does this project/transform/??? to a cylinder? The circumference at every latitude would be the same as the equator. To a disk? That's why Australia is always too large on the FAQ maps. This is possible on a sphere, how can 80 degrees north circumference be so much smaller than 80 degrees south on a disk FE? They should be equal. Per Gauss, you can't project, transform or ??? onto a cylinder or a disk and have both 80 degree circumferences be correct.

Your graphic of disk earth has Australia too big, just like the FAQ maps. Let's see your flat map with accurate size, distance, direction, and constant scale. You have math and graphics skills. Let's see it. Be the first!

Re day/night bendy light, do your equations account for the left/right bending? At noon on the equinox in Kampala, Uganda, the sun is rising in Rio De Janero. It appears to be directly east bearing 90 degrees, but on FE disk map, it looks like the bearing is actually about 45 degrees. And from Perth Australia at the same moment, looks like 270 degrees (directly west), but is actually 315 degrees.

Also interesting is that the light has no left right bending directly north and south. The amount of bend increases as you go south along the line of sunset until it gets to the far corner of the lighted area, where the discrepancy is maximum, then decreases until it is again 0 directly south.

So you need to add that to your model.

Interesting physical phenomenon, bends the opposite way on either side. As the sun moves around, this pattern moves with it. Apparently, the sun throws curveballs?

Now add the dome to your model. When it is sunset in Denver, in Salt Lake City it is still light blue over the entire dome. In St Louis, it is dark and there are stars over the entire sky, including the part of the dome beyond Salt Lake City. If someone in St Louis and someone in Salt Lake City look at the exact same spot over Denver, one sees light blue day sky, the other sees dark night with stars.

So let's see a model that accounts for left/right bending, and shows how someone can see either the entire dome of light blue at the same time as another person a few hundred miles east sees dark and stars, and has circumference of 80 degrees latitude both north and south much smaller than the equator on a flat disk, or cylinder, or anything other than a sphere.

You claim to have the ability to produce a FE map with accurate distance, size, direction, and constant scale. I await your post and will be astounded.










"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

Offline jimster

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2022, 03:05:28 AM »
My apologies, the graphics are small, but maybe you did take left/right into account.

You can't make Gauss Remarkable Theorem untrue by using polar coordinates. You still can't have 80 degrees north and south latitude both be smaller than the equator on a disk or a cylinder.
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2022, 07:31:40 AM »
The map has a different distance metric. Distance is just a formula, it's up to you to choose a meaningful one.
Using the correct metric, the circumference of 80N and 80S is the same as the globe and so it's smaller than the equator.

I believe you might be taking an orthonormal straight ruler and be applying it to a non-orthonormal basis and saying everything's wrong.
Flat earth rulers are curved, the markings are not equally spaced, and you need a different shaped ruler depending on position and direction you're measuring. (not very practical but that's flat earth for ya)
If i were to take this flat-earth ruler to the sphere, it won't make any sense at all either.

Shapes are meaningless without an axis (see attached)
I'm not very familiar with gauss remarkable theorem, but i'm pretty sure it changes when your coord system changes.
IF i'm applying it correctly, the gauss number for my flat earth is 0 though.

If the universe has an orthonormal basis, then the earth is a sphere, however we'll never be able to tell in what coord system the universe is supposed to be seen.
When you look down at your feet, you could see a sphere with straight light,
Or you could see a flat earth with bendy light.
There's no measurement/observation that will ever be able to tell the difference. Both are possible, neither is provable.

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2022, 10:45:33 AM »
The map has a different distance metric. Distance is just a formula, it's up to you to choose a meaningful one.
Using the correct metric, the circumference of 80N and 80S is the same as the globe and so it's smaller than the equator.

I believe you might be taking an orthonormal straight ruler and be applying it to a non-orthonormal basis and saying everything's wrong.
Flat earth rulers are curved, the markings are not equally spaced, and you need a different shaped ruler depending on position and direction you're measuring. (not very practical but that's flat earth for ya)
If i were to take this flat-earth ruler to the sphere, it won't make any sense at all either.


If the Earth is flat, then any flat map (on paper or screen) is just a scale drawing, with a constant scale.  No need for bendy rulers. 

The scale is n, map distance is y, and actual distance is x.  If your formula is more complex than  x=ny, then the Earth isn't flat.

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2022, 10:50:16 AM »
The map has a different distance metric. Distance is just a formula
What do you mean by that? This feels like a completely meaningless statement.
Distance is a physical thing which can be measured.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2022, 12:01:23 PM »
Distances in a non-orthonormal basis may not be measured with an orthogonal ruler.
You need a flat-earth-ruler to measure on a flat-earth map.

In maths: sqrt(xx+yy+zz) is not the correct formula. Apply that to Australia and you'll get gibberish.
You need to use a meaningful distance metric for the map/model you're using.
For the AE map, the conventional distance formula for coordinates expressed as (lat, long) does work as lat/long are preserved by the projection

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2022, 12:56:56 PM »
Distances in a non-orthonormal basis may not be measured with an orthogonal ruler.
You need a flat-earth-ruler to measure on a flat-earth map.

In maths: sqrt(xx+yy+zz) is not the correct formula. Apply that to Australia and you'll get gibberish.
You need to use a meaningful distance metric for the map/model you're using.
For the AE map, the conventional distance formula for coordinates expressed as (lat, long) does work as lat/long are preserved by the projection

You're a bit early with this.  There's still 8 weeks to go before 1st April.

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2022, 01:58:41 PM »
Distances in a non-orthonormal basis may not be measured with an orthogonal ruler.
You need a flat-earth-ruler to measure on a flat-earth map.
Sorry, but this is just gibberish.
If you drive along a straight road and the odometer tells you that you've gone 100 miles then, so long as it's accurate, you have travelled 100 miles.
That is true whether the earth is a sphere or flat. The only difference is on a globe that 100 miles will be part of a circle, on a flat earth it will be a straight line.
I'm ignoring the complications of terrain.
If the earth is flat then it should be possible to make an accurate flat earth map which depicts the shapes and sizes of land masses correctly and the distances between places.
Maps are flat, if the earth is flat too then the only issue should be scale. I have yet to see a flat earth map which does this and on which flight routes make sense.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2022, 02:35:32 PM »
To make an accurate map,
could you perhaps first tell me what coordinate system reality has?
I haven't been able to find the X-axis yet.  :)

But more seriously, i'm trying to make a model of reality, i'm not trying to make a map.
- Coordinate transformations can turn any shape into any other shape
- physics works with coordinate trnasformations
-> physics can be made to work on any shape universe (have a look at http://troolon.com for pictures)
-> There is no test to differentiate between the shapes. In reality we can only observe/measure the physical properties, not the shape.

So have a look around you and try these two views: i'm standing on a globe and lightrays are straight,
or you could say: i'm standing on a flat plane, and light curves to exactly counteract the missing curve.
Your eyes wouldn't be able to tell the difference and there's no physical test to distinguish between the two views, it's just a matter of perception.

It's like the old question: Am i moving, or is the entire universe moving around me? It's just a matter of how you look at the world.

Also this result shouldn't be very surprising. The universe could already be a sphere, a simulation, have no shape (QM), be a restored backup from 5 minutes ago ... We will simply never know the shape of the planet. It can be flat, it can be a globe or even a velociraptor.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 02:41:08 PM by troolon »

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2022, 02:52:30 PM »
Though your animations are nice, they aren't much different in concept than the sunlight animation already shown on the WIKI here.

Others are discussing the distance issue.  I'm curious how your model, appearing to be north pole centric, handles full daylight in the south in winter.  Take a look at the rightmost image here:



In winter, on a flat, north monopole, disc light forms a ring around the outside like depicted.  How does your model propose light does this?
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2022, 03:23:19 PM »
To make an accurate map,
could you perhaps first tell me what coordinate system reality has?
I haven't been able to find the X-axis yet.  :)

But more seriously, i'm trying to make a model of reality, i'm not trying to make a map.
- Coordinate transformations can turn any shape into any other shape
- physics works with coordinate trnasformations
-> physics can be made to work on any shape universe (have a look at http://troolon.com for pictures)
-> There is no test to differentiate between the shapes. In reality we can only observe/measure the physical properties, not the shape.

So have a look around you and try these two views: i'm standing on a globe and lightrays are straight,
or you could say: i'm standing on a flat plane, and light curves to exactly counteract the missing curve.
Your eyes wouldn't be able to tell the difference and there's no physical test to distinguish between the two views, it's just a matter of perception.

It's like the old question: Am i moving, or is the entire universe moving around me? It's just a matter of how you look at the world.

Also this result shouldn't be very surprising. The universe could already be a sphere, a simulation, have no shape (QM), be a restored backup from 5 minutes ago ... We will simply never know the shape of the planet. It can be flat, it can be a globe or even a velociraptor.

Again, it comes down to the point made about distance. If I drive between two points, the distance travelled is the distance travelled, whether it's flat, curved, rectangular or whatever. If it's flat, then it should be easy to lay out all the landmasses and say what the distances are between them, and indeed what size and shape they all are. How far is it, in your system, between the east and west coast of Australia, for example? How far is it from Australia to the southern tip of Africa or South America?

Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2022, 03:55:31 PM »
But more seriously, i'm trying to make a model of reality, i'm not trying to make a map.
A map is a model of reality, or part of one. As SteelyBob said, the distance between places can be measured.
If you know the distance between enough pairs of places you can determine whether it is possible to plot those on a plane. If it is not then one is forced to conclude that the earth cannot be flat.

Quote
There is no test to differentiate between the shapes. In reality we can only observe/measure the physical properties, not the shape.
I'd suggest that astronauts going to space and observing the earth is a pretty good test, and things like GPS are good evidence for the shape of the earth.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2022, 08:49:17 PM »
Though your animations are nice, they aren't much different in concept than the sunlight animation already shown on the WIKI here.

Others are discussing the distance issue.  I'm curious how your model, appearing to be north pole centric, handles full daylight in the south in winter.  Take a look at the rightmost image here:



In winter, on a flat, north monopole, disc light forms a ring around the outside like depicted.  How does your model propose light does this?
Do you mean this one? The only one i haven't encountered yet is the last wobbly one but i suppose that's because i approximated the suns orbit with a circle? If you could give me lat/long of the sun for the last one, i'll whip an image out.

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2022, 08:58:37 PM »
Again, it comes down to the point made about distance. If I drive between two points, the distance travelled is the distance travelled, whether it's flat, curved, rectangular or whatever. If it's flat, then it should be easy to lay out all the landmasses and say what the distances are between them, and indeed what size and shape they all are. How far is it, in your system, between the east and west coast of Australia, for example? How far is it from Australia to the southern tip of Africa or South America?

The AE map has a nonorthonormal basis. We can consider two cases:
For an observer existing within the coordinate system, ie a person in austraiia, the world and distances appear as in reality.
For an observer outside of the coordinate system, you should measure distances with a flat-earth ruler. (which is curved and has non-equal distance markings)
Taking an orthogonal ruler, to a flat-earth coordinate system produces invalid results. Just like taking my bend ruler to your globe would completely invalidate it.
Mathematically: you need to use the corect flat-earth distance metric that compensates for all the distortions.
This is why I asked you about the axis of reality. Globe is the correct shape if the axis is orthonormal. Flat is the correct shape if it's a peculiar other base. As we do not know in what base we're supposed the see the universe, we also do not know what shape the earth really has.


The way this model was constructed was by applying a coordinate transform to globe physics. Coord transforms change the shape of the model, but not the physics.
So if distances work on the globe, they will also work on the flat model, by design.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 11:14:14 PM by troolon »

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2022, 09:03:47 PM »
A map is a model of reality, or part of one. As SteelyBob said, the distance between places can be measured.
If you know the distance between enough pairs of places you can determine whether it is possible to plot those on a plane. If it is not then one is forced to conclude that the earth cannot be flat.
Please check the other post for distance.

Quote
I'd suggest that astronauts going to space and observing the earth is a pretty good test, and things like GPS are good evidence for the shape of the earth.
In this model light curves in exactly the correct way to make the flat earth look curved. This model is globe physics coord transformed. We removed the curve of the earth and contorted the entire universe to compensate for it. Light bends in exactly the correct way so you can't ever tell the difference.

This flat earth model is globe physics made to look like flat. It is indistinguishable from the globe model.

Offline troolon

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Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2022, 09:06:32 PM »
Hey,

This is how you make the any shaped earth:
- coordinate transformations can change the universe to any shape you like
- physics is unaffected by coordinate transformations
-> physics can be made to work on any shape world (see the animations i posted for example)
-> There's no test to distinguish the models, they're designed to be identical
-> It's impossible to ever know the shape of the planet
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 10:21:11 PM by troolon »