1

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« on: May 02, 2024, 07:27:17 PM »

I showed you the calculation at Reply#2.  Average the groundspeeds of 2 aircraft flying in opposite directions at a similar airspeed in a similar airspace; for each aircraft the difference from the average is the headwind/tailwind speed component. 

2

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« on: May 02, 2024, 06:55:21 PM »

Those numbers are around the plane's cruise speed. But the plane should not be traveling at a speed around its cruising speed, since we know that on long haul flights planes across the oceans planes use jet streams to reach their location. It would be traveling the plane's cruising speed + jet stream.

Jetstreams even enable supersonic flight for commercial aircraft.

On the flight trackers there have been some interesting anomalies. Jeran shows at the 1h32m mark of the following video about the flight between Auckland and Santiago that True Airspeed can be seen to far exceed ground speed. Over the course of the flight the True Airspeed is either "N/A" or shows quite fast speeds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKKHY72x3ZU

A jetstream is just a wind, and I accounted for it in my calculation.  A look at any jetstream map will show that they are predominently westerly in the southern hemisphere, which corresponds with my previous statement and, if it is assisting the eastbound flight will it not be hindering the westbound which is occuring simultaneously and at similar latitudes? 

We've also done Jeran's thing before.  Simultaneous to the "supersonic" speeds is a series of altitude changes which an F-16 would struggle with.  Its just a batch of missing data on aircraft position; when it recovers the position data it integrates the delta-position over time to determine speed.   

3

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« on: May 02, 2024, 09:12:36 AM »

"... faster winds in the south ....".  Ah yes, we've been here before. 

Amongst others at the moment, (now, 0912UTC on 2 May 2024) LAN-Chile has 2 Boeing 787 Dreamliners airborne over the South Pacific. 

Reg CC-BGG is operating as LAN801 from Santiago to Auckland, a route planned as about 5300NM.  The aircraft is just under halfway and estimates completing the journey with a flight time of 12 hours, giving an average ground speed of 440 kts. 

Its sister ship, CC-BGH is operating as LAN804 from Melbourne to Santiago, a route planned as about 6200NM.  The aircraft is about halfway and estimates completing the journey with a flight time also of 12 hours, giving an average ground speed of 520 kts. 

Taking the average of the westbound and eastbound flights, 480 kts, would suggest an westerly wind component of 40 kts acting as a headwind hampering LAN801 and assisting LAN804.  Wikipedia lists the cruising speed of a Dreamliner as 488 to 516 kts. 

As the captains of both aircraft would not have departed unless they were sure of the distance and fuel needed, I would suggest that calculating the distance from South America to Australasia has been calculated in considerably less than "20 to 30 years", and that the windspeeds are well understood. 

4

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I am wondering why I do not see...

« on: April 01, 2024, 01:22:34 PM »

As I understand the Saros theory, if there is an eclipse in your state that is not on this table, it will be part of a different Saros Cycle; this table only refers to Saros Cycle Number 145.  Or did you think that only 16 eclipses would occur globally over a 260 year period? 

5

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Wiki Spam

« on: March 23, 2024, 11:41:15 PM »

Many correspondents on these pages would contend that most of the Wiki's content is a load of old nonsense, but the fact is that FEers have devoted considerable time and effort to construct, amend and develop the information therein, and that it forms the public crystalisation of your credo. 

That some faceless, mindless morons can feck-around with it to this extent is, sadly, a typical electronic example of the modern vandalism that sees Banksies defaced, objects dropped from highway bridges, and so on. 

Sincerely hope that you can sort it out. 

6

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Conspiracy Theory of Space Travel being a Hoax

« on: February 27, 2024, 07:21:23 PM »

Agreed on this example BillO, and refutes Action80's assertion that

It is important to note the routes taken today have remained essentially unchanged.

Examples are even more different in the southern hemisphere (Hemiplane?).  Witness Qantas QFA864 (B787, VH-ZNN), currently around 51S 60E en-route J'burg-Sydney; a route which didn't exist in the early 20th Century. 

7

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Conspiracy Theory of Space Travel being a Hoax

« on: February 26, 2024, 07:19:25 PM »

Need to play Devil's advocate here BillO; the proof is not in this particular pudding. 

The reason for the 1920s/30s routing was, as you say, to accommodate the relatively short range of the aircraft involved (and incidentally goes some way to explaining the current hodge-podge of middle-east politics, as the British Empire ran roughshod over emirates and sheikhdoms in order to provide an air-route to British southern Africa and to India). 

Your Directflights map is not an air-route at all, its a travel agent's illustration of a hypothetical link between the 2 cities, in the same way that the London Underground Map joins Waterloo to Paddington.  Its not a navigational map.  If you look at a tracking site like Flightradar24 you'll find that the normal route is typically Balkans, eastern Med, Egypt, northern Red Sea, Ethiopea, Kenya, Tanzania, and all well to the east of a Great Circle.  The reason for this is to related to common sense as well as insurance requirements; most aviation insurance excludes flight over war-zones, rogue-states and specifically some countries such as North Korea, Libya, Yemen.  Hence, very similar to Imperial Airways, in fact, but in hours rather than days, and not a pith-helmet in sight. 

I agree 100% with your concept of modern air-routes generally being more direct, but you'll likely be looking at oceanic examples to get your point over.  Glad you're feeling better btw. 

8

Science & Alternative Science / Re: New Report on WTC 7

« on: February 19, 2024, 08:56:49 PM »

Google search - "how much fuel did ua 175 carry"

1st up = "UA 175 was also a Boeing 767-200ER and had also left Boston, bound for Los Angeles. It flew into WTC 2 carrying about 9,100 gal (62,000 lb) of jet fuel, evenly distributed between the inboard portions of the left and right wing tanks."

That is less than 10,000.

Your "book," is way, way off...perhaps in the section called "fiction."

So, "62,000 lb ........ that is less than 10,000".  Please explain.  Are you introducing gallons into this debate, when jet fuel is measured by mass, just to maintain your assertion that Mahogany is a liar? 

9

Science & Alternative Science / Re: New Report on WTC 7

« on: February 19, 2024, 07:57:12 PM »

Both 767s were destined for LAX.  According to Mr Google, a 767 uses around 13,000 pounds of fuel per hour.  Flight time of 5 hours from passing NY, plus 40 min reserves, would suggest that each 767 was carrying around 70,000 pounds of Jet-A1; kerosene if you will, at impact.  "Tens of thousands" in my book. 

Although Mahogany did not specify units, aircraft of US origin normally measure fuel load in pounds; European generally in kilograms.  Fuel quantity on commercial and military aircraft is always quantified by mass (not volume) since that is directly related to its calorific value. 

Can you be a little more specific about his alleged lie? 

10

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: February 18, 2024, 10:06:03 PM »

"When they came for the Estonians, I was not Estonian, so I did nothing". 

And so on, and so forth. 

11

Science & Alternative Science / Re: New Report on WTC 7

« on: February 18, 2024, 09:42:34 PM »

Titled ".... WTC BUILIDING 7 ..." (sic). 

Obviously a critique with this level of peer-review deserves our full attention. 

12

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Conspiracy Theory of Space Travel being a Hoax

« on: February 07, 2024, 10:04:35 PM »

Yes they are.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/blue-marble-photo-50th-anniversary-snap-scn/index.html

[/quote]

The iconic photo, known as “Blue Marble,” was taken by NASA astronauts Eugene “Gene” Cernan, Ronald Evans and Harrison Schmitt on December 7 using a Hasselblad camera and a Zeiss lens, about 45,000 kilometers (28,000 miles) away from home, as the Apollo 17 crew made its way to the moon.

"Oh my God, look at that picture over there! There's the Earth coming up. Wow, is that pretty!" Bill Anders shouted at fellow astronaut Jim Lovell. "You got a colour film, Jim? Hand me a roll of colour, quick, would you?"
"That's a beautiful shot," said Lovell as Anders clicked the shutter and captured what has become one of the world's most famous photographs.

There's little doubt that the Earthrise image has been chopped about and digitally altered to enhance its impact in the modern age, but it was first published in 1969.  Adobe Photoshop was developed by Thomas Knoll, born 1960.  You think maybe NASA saw his potential and brought him onboard at age 9?

13

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Conspiracy Theory of Space Travel being a Hoax

« on: February 01, 2024, 11:25:25 PM »

Ferguson's Map; indeed.  Other brands also available.

Is it not clear to you that I am not debating the multitude of possible forms of map, but directly Action80's contention that the Earth is flat, "everywhere (he) goes". 

Like his desk.  And most of the maps. 


(Oh, and "zealot" btw?  Thank you; "praise indeed"). 

14

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Conspiracy Theory of Space Travel being a Hoax

« on: February 01, 2024, 09:43:21 PM »

Pete, I already discounted the grain and blemishes (the mountains and valleys, if you will).  My suggestion is that Action80's desk probably has an overall curvature.  He proposed it as an analogy to the observed Earth (despite the fairly obvious difference in perspective) and stated that it is flat, but has so far provided no evidence to this effect. 

(4 years; my my).   

15

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Conspiracy Theory of Space Travel being a Hoax

« on: February 01, 2024, 08:59:51 PM »

The "desk" thing is another interesting analogy.  Is it actually flat?  How do you know?  Have you measured it?  To what degree of accuracy? 

"It looks flat". 

I'm not talking about minor blemishes (maybe its wooden, does it have a grain, a surface texture)?  What I'm talking about is the overall flatness; x axis and z axis, edge to edge, corner to corner, and to a selection of datum points across its surface.  Is it cheap or of good quality.  Have you applied a certified straight-edge and measured for bow and sag?  You seem pretty sure, wonder if that's justified. 

Clever money says its not very flat at all. 

16

Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Conspiracy Theory of Space Travel being a Hoax

« on: January 30, 2024, 02:13:06 PM »

Indeed, I think the immediate evidence with my own eyes is more likely to be reliable than pictures from many thousands or more of miles away. I guess it's more of a philosophical position than anything else. If I perceive the Earth to be flat while I'm right up against it, why should I blindly assume that the alternative evidence is better?

This is a curious approach to science (or, indeed, philosophy).  Being close to an object certainly permits a better focus on detail, texture, and might facilitate touch, taste, smell, etc, but actually reduces the ability to perceive its shape.  To visually determine the form of an object, one actually needs to stand back from it, so that it can be seen in its entirety. 

If you were placed at a corresponding proximity to the United Nations building, the Pentagon and the Great Pyramid of Giza, you would peceive all of them to be planar in nature, but have no idea whatever of their shape. 

17

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Get a haircut, you hippie!

« on: January 25, 2024, 02:47:32 PM »

Not my country, not my legal system, not my school board and not my choice of tonsorial elegance but, ffs, what is this; the 1960s?  Isn't a State court a rather heavy steamhammer against bad hair?  Jeepers, if your hair/attire/adornments aren't endangering or offending the public, what's the problem? 

18

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 11, 2023, 03:25:00 PM »

So, the rifle bullet thing; 

https://www.uu.edu/dept/physics/scienceguys/2002Sept.cfm

Union University uses a machine gun as an example of a closed system. 

19

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 10, 2023, 11:59:57 PM »

@Action80.  A system can comprise several entities.  For example the Joule Experiment, which you sometimes quote, comprises a cylinder, a gas, and (depending on the form used) a piston.  All Markjo is suggesting, and which you apparently find derisible, is that some of these components within the sysem can form a force-pair.  The system as a whole is not "acting against itself", but 2 independant entities within the CLOSED system acting against each other.   

Whilst I'm here, can I ask what you believe the nature of the "plume" to be?  By that, I mean is it a gas, does it have substance, does it have mass?  Would you agree that it is formed from the exhaust material of the rocket motor?  Would you agree that, as it is constantly being generated by the motor, that it must be dispersing at an equal rate?  Where is it going? 

Finally, and this is not part of the debate though it's something another couple of people have mentioned; I've no idea of your education level, nor indeed of any of the correspondents on this thread with the possible exception of RonJ who, like myself, says he is a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Technician.  What I believe, however, is that everyone debating with you is expressing genuinely held opinions.  Some people may have misunderstood what they have learnt, and everyone seems to have misread what you have written, to the extent that we talk BS, make false claims, lie, strawman and gaslight.  You, on the other hand, are a paragon of truth, despite making repeated claims about the voracity of the "plume" thing, and how it is widely accepted by jet engine manufacturers and your nephew (though entirely without any citations to that effect).  I wonder if the disrespect and aggression shown in your replies is founded in a lack of confidence in your stated opinions. 

Without exception I, and the other correspondents, have treated you with utmost respect.  Like a closed system, it would be nice if this were recipricated. 

20

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 09, 2023, 08:03:50 PM »

And yes, a force pair is still required. A closed system cannot form a force pair internal to itself. In the case of both jets and rockets, that force pair can only be formed with an outside environment that has measurable air pressure. The rocket can form a working plume in an environment that has less air pressure than a jet (jets are probably capped at an altitude of of 15 miles or so), probably at around 190,000 ft. or so.

Better check again the definition of a Closed System; it is entirely isolated from its environment. 

A rifle cartridge is, and remains, a closed system; bullet goes one way, case and rifle go the other.  Force pair.  Muzzle blast irrelevant.   

A rocket motor is a closed system; combustion gases go one way, motor goes the other.  Force pair.  Plume irrelevant.