Offline Mark_1984

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2017, 04:16:31 PM »

No, you've made the huge claim that waves are always bigger than the hight of your head, but offered no proof whatsoever.  What evidence have you got.  I put it to you that it's merely your personal opinion.  In fact, your claim that waves are always big is even more outlandish that refusing to believe that the sun rise and sun set times on dateandtime.com are inaccurate.  You're the one who's always stating the importance of indisputable evidence.  Here's your chance to walk the talk.

Not interested. The average height of ocean waves is something you can look into for yourself.

Oh dear, poor Tom has run out of options, so is simply refusing to discuss the subject.  I think that's the first time I've seen Tom defeated.

While we're on the subject of sunsets, can you explain to me why the sun falls below the horizon.  If it runs in a circle above the equator (or flat earth equivalent) it should never be lower than about 45 degrees in the sky.  Very approximately speaking of course, I don't want to discuss the exact angle.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2017, 04:19:09 PM »
I think your logic is twisted.  Imagine the sun is like a spotlight, throwing a cone shaped bean of light from it's 3000 mile altitude.  It's goes from a 32 mile diameter to what, say a 3000 mile pool of daylight.  That gives a beam angle of about 90 degrees, or 45 degrees on each side of the beam.  Therefore, if I stand up at the moment of sunset, I should be in darkness.  Or to think it the other way, if I am standing up at sunset, and suddenly sit down, then I should see a second sun set.

That's not how it works.

Quote
As for the dime and the elephant, if I hold a dime so it just obscures the elephant, then stand up, it still just obscures the elephant.  On a round earth I would see farther as I can see the little bit further over the horizon, but on a flat earth it would make no difference at all.

Well, in this scenerio, the dime is on the ground near the horizon and when you increased your altitude you have broadened your perspective lines and have created a new Vanishing Point further back into the distance.

Offline Mark_1984

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2017, 04:22:57 PM »
I think your logic is twisted.  Imagine the sun is like a spotlight, throwing a cone shaped bean of light from it's 3000 mile altitude.  It's goes from a 32 mile diameter to what, say a 3000 mile pool of daylight.  That gives a beam angle of about 90 degrees, or 45 degrees on each side of the beam.  Therefore, if I stand up at the moment of sunset, I should be in darkness.  Or to think it the other way, if I am standing up at sunset, and suddenly sit down, then I should see a second sun set.

That's not how it works.


So how does it work then ?  Please highlight the flaw in my logic.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2017, 04:23:33 PM »
I think your logic is twisted.  Imagine the sun is like a spotlight, throwing a cone shaped bean of light from it's 3000 mile altitude.  It's goes from a 32 mile diameter to what, say a 3000 mile pool of daylight.  That gives a beam angle of about 90 degrees, or 45 degrees on each side of the beam.  Therefore, if I stand up at the moment of sunset, I should be in darkness.  Or to think it the other way, if I am standing up at sunset, and suddenly sit down, then I should see a second sun set.

That's not how it works.


So how does it work then ?  Please highlight the flaw in my logic.

The sun shines light in all directions.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2017, 04:27:53 PM »
I think your logic is twisted.  Imagine the sun is like a spotlight, throwing a cone shaped bean of light from it's 3000 mile altitude.  It's goes from a 32 mile diameter to what, say a 3000 mile pool of daylight.  That gives a beam angle of about 90 degrees, or 45 degrees on each side of the beam.  Therefore, if I stand up at the moment of sunset, I should be in darkness.  Or to think it the other way, if I am standing up at sunset, and suddenly sit down, then I should see a second sun set.

That's not how it works.


So how does it work then ?  Please highlight the flaw in my logic.

The sun shines light in all directions.

Ah - so no more "flashlight" sun?

OK - so still...using the bipolar map of your choice - explain (very approximately) where there is visible sunlight at 00:00 GMT.  A don't see any way that you can avoid it being an annulus...which makes no sense.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2017, 04:33:48 PM »
Oh dear, poor Tom has run out of options, so is simply refusing to discuss the subject.  I think that's the first time I've seen Tom defeated.

The average height of ocean waves is pretty widely available. While the burden of proof is on me on this claim, I have more interesting things to do than find a source for you.

Offline RJDO

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2017, 04:37:33 PM »
This type of phenomenon is normally explained by you having changed and broadened your perspective lines at higher altitudes to restore the sun, but this particular case is explained by the existence of waves.
In what situation would I change and broaden my perspective lines?



Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot. The perspective lines meet at the horizon and are perfect, but the surface of the earth is not perfect.

See, I am telling you, he is on a new level with his trolling. My favorite part of this is the "waves", and whatnot statement. The only flaw I need mention is that waves do not operate the way you need them to for this explanation. Waves do not always travel toward the observer, and you know that. In fact, with this argument what you are describing, when a wave runs anything other than toward the observer, you would see multiple sunsets as waves are exactly that. Waves. Meaning they have a peak and a trough. And we know that a wave is both above and below the average line.

Now, I need help as to "whatnot" is. This needs to be explained so we can better understand your point. Maybe the "whatnot" fills the area between the crest and valley of a wave. Lets hope so!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 04:39:09 PM by RJDO »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2017, 04:52:55 PM »
In fact, with this argument what you are describing, when a wave runs anything other than toward the observer, you would see multiple sunsets as waves are exactly that.

Its also not only one wave. The waves "build up" in the distance creating the solid line of the horizon you would see when looking out at sea.

I think I have helped you guys out quite enough. Refer to forum searches, wiki searches, and Earth Not a Globe if interested in Flat Earth Theory further.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 11:13:38 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Mark_1984

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2017, 04:58:25 PM »
I think your logic is twisted.  Imagine the sun is like a spotlight, throwing a cone shaped bean of light from it's 3000 mile altitude.  It's goes from a 32 mile diameter to what, say a 3000 mile pool of daylight.  That gives a beam angle of about 90 degrees, or 45 degrees on each side of the beam.  Therefore, if I stand up at the moment of sunset, I should be in darkness.  Or to think it the other way, if I am standing up at sunset, and suddenly sit down, then I should see a second sun set.

That's not how it works.


So how does it work then ?  Please highlight the flaw in my logic.

The sun shines light in all directions.

In which case, I should be able to see it 24 hours a day, or at least, it would stay above the horizon but get dimmer. 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2017, 05:03:40 PM »
In which case, I should be able to see it 24 hours a day, or at least, it would stay above the horizon but get dimmer. 

Here you go:

Increasing your altitude changes your perspective lines and allows you to see more distant lands. It will take a further amount of land to reach the Vanishing Point.

This is why it would take longer for the sun to set while you are at higher altitudes, and why the sun can be restored by rapidly increasing your altitude immediately after sunset.

Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot. The perspective lines meet at the horizon and are perfect, but the surface of the earth is not perfect. Any slight increase  in height near the Vanishing Point will allow something to disappear further behind it, much like a dime can obscure an elephant.

I won't be around any longer. I assure you that you can do some simple searches to find answers to your queries.

Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2017, 05:06:50 PM »
In which case, I should be able to see it 24 hours a day, or at least, it would stay above the horizon but get dimmer. 

Here you go:

Increasing your altitude changes your perspective lines and allows you to see more distant lands. It will take a further amount of land to reach the Vanishing Point.

This is why it would take longer for the sun to set while you are at higher altitudes, and why the sun can be restored by rapidly increasing your altitude immediately after sunset.

Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot. The perspective lines meet at the horizon and are perfect, but the surface of the earth is not perfect. Any slight increase  in height near the Vanishing Point will allow something to disappear further behind it, much like a dime can obscure an elephant.

I won't be around any longer. I assure you that you can do some simple searches to find answers to your queries.

Tom Bishop with the mic drop. lol

Tom, before you depart, can you maybe post a diagram of perspectives at different heights for future reference?
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Offline Roger G

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2017, 06:19:02 PM »
So If I am standing on the beach on a fairly calm sea state day the waves typically would be no more than 6ft from crest to trough. Here is a wind and wave finder site used by sailors, kite surfers etc https://www.windfinder.com Pick out the area you want to see for sea conditions in that area then click on one of the dots for a detailed information list. The particular area I was looking at for today was for the Dover to Calais area of the UK English channel which was in fact a maximum of about 3ft today. Let's assume a little higher than that perhaps to my eye level. Given a flat earth, anything above the height of the waves, lets say a low building or promenade should be visible across the 21 mile width between England and France at that point, during good visibility. I am quite happy to concede that with my fairly old eyes it might be a bit distant to pick out, but with even a modest pair of binoculars the low building and promenade would be clearly visible. However on a recent trip to Dover in calmer conditions than today, from the beach I could see nothing of the French coastline, just a clear horizon line. On the other hand, when I went to the top of the 350ft cliffs a few minutes later, I could clearly see many miles of the French coastline even without binoculars. How could that possibly be if the planet is flat? The only explanation is that the landmass is below the horizon when viewed from the lower level which could only be possible in a round earth scenario.

As far as I can see, that is clear and verifiable empirical evidence, personally observed of a round earth.

Roger

Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2017, 07:36:43 PM »
This type of phenomenon is normally explained by you having changed and broadened your perspective lines at higher altitudes to restore the sun, but this particular case is explained by the existence of waves.

Fine then, can I ask, just overall, why would anyone bother to fake this? Fake the real shape of the earth? What possible motivation could you have?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2017, 08:30:21 PM »
The sun, at zenith subtends an angle of about 0.52 degrees.

In RET, that's the size at the horizon too - but in FET, it ought to be smaller because it's further away - but we supposedly have magic perspective AND the magic-bright-object-size-fixer-upper - so it's the same size as it is at zenith there too.

So how high is a wave at the horizon?   Well, if your eye was a foot above the water, the horizon would be 1.2 miles away (6336 feet)...the wave (even at 6' tall) would subtend arctan(6/6336) ...which is 0.054 degrees.

So a 6' wave on the horizon would only obscure maybe 10% of the Sun's disk.  You'd need a 50' wave to cover it completely.

If your eye was closer than a foot, the horizon would be closer - so a smaller wave would do - but you'd literally have to get your eye within 1/10th of an inch of the water surface...and which point even the slightest ripple close to your face would block your view.

Sorry Tom...it's nothing to do with waves.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline Mark_1984

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2017, 12:06:00 AM »
Oh dear, I think we’ve broken Tom !

The waves are completely irrelevant as when you’re laying down you’re looking across a series of peaks, which are all the same height.  You can’t see the troughs.

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Online Rama Set

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2017, 01:06:36 AM »
Oh dear, poor Tom has run out of options, so is simply refusing to discuss the subject.  I think that's the first time I've seen Tom defeated.

The average height of ocean waves is pretty widely available. While the burden of proof is on me on this claim, I have more interesting things to do than find a source for you.

So then you concede your point. Very good. Also...

Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot.

Sig’d this beauty.

Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot.

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Offline Rounder

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2017, 01:35:33 PM »
The average height of ocean waves is pretty widely available.
As are so many of the facts that RE present to you, facts for which you demand ridiculous proof.  How’s that shoe feel on the other foot?

While the burden of proof is on me on this claim, I have more interesting things to do than find a source for you.
Glad I was sitting down, Tom admitted that the burden of proof lies with him?   :o

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Offline Rounder

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2017, 04:07:01 PM »
You want proof of the existence of waves?  ???
Don’t be obtuse. Prove beyond all doubt that the existence of waves give the effect of the sun setting again when you stand up.

It needs to be proven "beyond doubt" that ocean waves are taller than your head when you lay on your belly at the water's edge? Okay...

Sure, waves can be taller than your head.  How about showing us how waves on an obviously calm sea are taller than the height to which a helicopter can fly?
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Offline mtnman

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2017, 10:16:41 PM »

Sure, waves can be taller than your head.  How about showing us how waves on an obviously calm sea are taller than the height to which a helicopter can fly?

Great video, shows altitude brings the sun back into view.

Tom said in a thread that waves and trees and things cause the vanishing point at the horizon. When I said therefore sufficient altitude should overcome this and there would never be a sunset seen from a plane at altitude on FE. No more response from Tom on that thread of course.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An experiment I want every single one of you to explain
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2017, 11:40:14 PM »

Sure, waves can be taller than your head.  How about showing us how waves on an obviously calm sea are taller than the height to which a helicopter can fly?

Great video, shows altitude brings the sun back into view.

Tom said in a thread that waves and trees and things cause the vanishing point at the horizon. When I said therefore sufficient altitude should overcome this and there would never be a sunset seen from a plane at altitude on FE. No more response from Tom on that thread of course.

When you rise in altitude, the horizon rises as well, keeping at your eye level. See this page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Basic_Perspective