[Tom Bishop]

Douglips, why are you posting this in multiple threads? I have already responded to you in the other thread you posted.

You are ignoring the existence of twilight and believe that any light seen is from direct sunlight.

Your data does not really make any sense. Look at what you posted:

Here's one in Enschede Netherlands, where on 22 September of this year it was predicted that sunrise would be 7:18 AM, and sunset 7:30 PM.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20170922
In case they rate limit all of you people from hitting their website and melting it, here's the data from near sunrise:
22/09/17   7:30AM   0.003kWh   0.001kWh/kW   15W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:25AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   4W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:20AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:15AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   -   -   -   -   -   -   
...

But Cairns is kind of North, so let's try South Australia.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=3332&sid=2590&dt=20170922
Millicent, Australia, 37 degrees south latitude.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@2157652?month=9&year=2017
Predicted sunrise/sunset:
5:58 - 6:04

Sunrise data:
22/09/17   6:30AM   0.029kWh   0.009kWh/kW   180W   180W   0.055kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:25AM   0.014kWh   0.004kWh/kW   96W   96W   0.029kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:20AM   0.006kWh   0.002kWh/kW   48W   48W   0.015kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:15AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   24W   -   -   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   - 

15 minutes after sunrise Netherlands reads 0.004kW/kW and 15 minutes after sunrise Australia reads 0.042kWh. Why the big difference? So where is the sun really? How do we know that these either of these areas were not experiencing twilight?

[douglips]

I posted this in multiple threads because I developed the idea in the other thread which was a Q& A thread, and then I saw all the arguing in this thread which was easily resolved, so I posted it here as well.

As to what the difference is:
a) the data is collected at 5 minute intervals. This obviously means that the first collection point could be after 1 minute of power collection (or even less) or 5 minutes of power collection, so you should expect up to a factor of 5 difference in the first reading.
b) The station in Australia doesn't report earlier than 6:15 on that day - it's possible it doesn't report until it has at least a certain threshold of power generated. I do not know the exact specifics of that one power system. Perhaps you would like me to pick one of the other million or so that does include data from when zero power is generated?
c) The columns listed are:
Date   Time   Energy   Efficiency   Power   Average   Normalised   Temperature   Voltage   Energy Used   Power Used
The one I find most interesting is the Power column, in the Netherlands here's a bit more data (again, from that same page that you could visit and see data from all the day:
22/09/17   7:45AM   0.012kWh   0.004kWh/kW   56W   48W   0.016kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:40AM   0.008kWh   0.003kWh/kW   36W   36W   0.012kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:35AM   0.005kWh   0.002kWh/kW   28W   24W   0.008kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:30AM   0.003kWh   0.001kWh/kW   15W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:25AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   4W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:20AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:15AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   -   -   -   -   -   -   

If, for example, the Cairns station does not report when generating less than 5 watts (which is a tiny amount for a 3kW system) you would miss that first data line.

For now, I do not have a way to assert that twilight cannot generate any power, but I'm working on it.
What about my reports for California? I've personally verified when sunrise and sunset is for approximately 100 days of the last 3 years, and from that I have decided that for California, I trust timeanddate.com. I then looked at CalISO's website and saw the solar curve matches very well, so in the case of California solar power, no power is generated at twilight.

Please let me know what proof you would like to confirm that twilight doesn't generate power.

[inquisitive]

Douglips, why are you posting this in multiple threads? I have already responded to you in the other thread you posted.

You are ignoring the existence of twilight and believe that any light seen is from direct sunlight.

Your data does not really make any sense. Look at what you posted:

Here's one in Enschede Netherlands, where on 22 September of this year it was predicted that sunrise would be 7:18 AM, and sunset 7:30 PM.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20170922
In case they rate limit all of you people from hitting their website and melting it, here's the data from near sunrise:
22/09/17   7:30AM   0.003kWh   0.001kWh/kW   15W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:25AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   4W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:20AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:15AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   -   -   -   -   -   -   
...

But Cairns is kind of North, so let's try South Australia.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=3332&sid=2590&dt=20170922
Millicent, Australia, 37 degrees south latitude.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@2157652?month=9&year=2017
Predicted sunrise/sunset:
5:58 - 6:04

Sunrise data:
22/09/17   6:30AM   0.029kWh   0.009kWh/kW   180W   180W   0.055kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:25AM   0.014kWh   0.004kWh/kW   96W   96W   0.029kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:20AM   0.006kWh   0.002kWh/kW   48W   48W   0.015kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:15AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   24W   -   -   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   - 

15 minutes after sunrise Netherlands reads 0.004kW/kW and 15 minutes after sunrise Australia reads 0.042kWh. Why the big difference? So where is the sun really? How do we know that these either of these areas were not experiencing twilight?

Why is it you always find it difficult to see the principle and want to argue about small points.  We know you accept that timeanddate.com is correct which shows how the shape of the earth can be easily determined, other than just understanding the path of the sun.

[Mark_1984]

Hmmm.  The original point of the discussion seems to be whether timeanddate.org is reliable.  Well, the same info has been published in the Nautical Almanac and numerous other sources for years and years, and is used by navigators on a daily basis.  Call this common knowledge, empirical evidence, or what you like.  I’ve seen it used.
Can Tom give us any evidence of a recorded inaccuracy in the sun rise and sun set time predictions.  Just one will do.

[devils advocate]

Hmmm.  The original point of the discussion seems to be whether timeanddate.org is reliable.  Well, the same info has been published in the Nautical Almanac and numerous other sources for years and years, and is used by navigators on a daily basis.  Call this common knowledge, empirical evidence, or what you like.  I’ve seen it used.
Can Tom give us any evidence of a recorded inaccuracy in the sun rise and sun set time predictions.  Just one will do.

Quite so Mark, it would be lovely if TomTom could back up his absurd claim but he can't, as we know hence why he resorts to these desperate denials. If I were to bet I'd say he'll either ignore you or make some wild claim that the burden of proof rests on us not him thus he no obligation to prove anything. Either way it demonstrates there is, and can be no sensible retort to the FACTS presented by time and date, which conflict with any theoretical FE map, which alongside all the other evidence offered recently gives cast iron proof that earth is certainly NOT flat. Tom can no longer argue using facts, all he had is denial. 

[TomInAustin]

This thread has nothing to do with images, you can stand on any point on earth and time day time and night time at twelve hours each.

Any records of that?

Okay fine, it's 12 hours and 8 mins, so the sun must cover 50.8% of the earth. But yes, of course there are records.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/new-zealand/auckland?month=9&year=2017
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/edinburgh?month=9&year=2017

That's a calculator, not a list of observations.

This from the guy that uses a redit post of an old balloon from a random internet post as proof?

[TomInAustin]

Part of me is wondering if you are just trolling about fake-NASA to distract from the original question.
How does this have anything to do with space travel?

I personally found the question to be rather uninteresting. We get the same question all the time. Here are some examples on how this topic will proceed:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6588.0

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6498.msg121460#msg121460

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6919.msg125884#msg125884

Maybe you get the same question because it never gets answered?

I notice your links do not even cover the question.  Are you getting rattled?

[Mark_1984]

Equally to the point, how can the sun cast a circle of light when it radiates in all directions ?

[TomInAustin]

Equally to the point, how can the sun cast a circle of light when it radiates in all directions ?

It's almost like its a giant ball of hot gas fueled by fusion!

[3DGeek]

Equally to the point, how can the sun cast a circle of light when it radiates in all directions ?

A circle of light?   Like this you mean?



(Midnight in Africa).