Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #160 on: April 24, 2018, 12:46:42 PM »

1 Dollar = 10 Dimes
1 Dime = 10 Pennies

10 Dimes / 10 Pennies = 1  <--- But this is correct. We got a whole number. 10 Dimes fits into 10 Pennies 1 time. 10 fits into 10 1 time.

1 = 10 dimes/dollar
1 = 10 pennies/dime

10 dimes / (10 pennies/dime) = 1 dimes^2/pennies

The only reason you think this calculation makes sense is because both factors are 10.

If you had a different money system that was still based on whole numbers, it wouldn't work.

1 pound = 20 shillings
1 shilling = 12 pence

20 shillings / (12 pence/shilling) = (5/3)(shillings^2/pence)

Does this mean the old english money system was invalid?

Quote

--- --- ---

1 Yard = 5280 Feet
1 Foot = 12 inches

5280 Feet / 12 inches = 440  <--- This is correct as well. We got a whole number. 12 inches can fit neatly into 5280 feet 440 times. 12 fits neatly into 5280 440 times.

The 1 Foot = 12 inches is implicit in the above equation.

1 nautical mile = 6076.12 feet
1 foot = 12 inches

1 nautical mile / 12 (inches/foot) = 506.34 nautical mile * feet/inches

Does this mean nautical miles don't exist?

--- --- ---
Quote
I just divided unlike units and got a right answer  :o

I can do that too:
The speed limit on I-5: 70 miles/hour
Number of days in a week: 7 days / week

70 miles/hour  /  7 days/week = 10 miles*week/hour*days

It's a whole number, it has to mean something.

How about

7 days in a week
24 hours in a day
60 minutes in an hour

7 days / 60 minutes/hour  = 7/60  (days*hours/minutes)

7 days / 24 hours / day = 7/24  (days^2/hours)

Does this mean weeks don't exist?


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #161 on: April 24, 2018, 03:12:59 PM »

1 Dollar = 10 Dimes
1 Dime = 10 Pennies

10 Dimes / 10 Pennies = 1  <--- But this is correct. We got a whole number. 10 Dimes fits into 10 Pennies 1 time. 10 fits into 10 1 time.

1 = 10 dimes/dollar
1 = 10 pennies/dime

10 dimes / (10 pennies/dime) = 1 dimes^2/pennies

The only reason you think this calculation makes sense is because both factors are 10.

If you had a different money system that was still based on whole numbers, it wouldn't work.

1 pound = 20 shillings
1 shilling = 12 pence

20 shillings / (12 pence/shilling) = (5/3)(shillings^2/pence)

Does this mean the old english money system was invalid?

Quote

--- --- ---

1 Miles = 5280 Feet
1 Foot = 12 inches

5280 Feet / 12 inches = 440  <--- This is correct as well. We got a whole number. 12 inches can fit neatly into 5280 feet 440 times. 12 fits neatly into 5280 440 times.

The 1 Foot = 12 inches is implicit in the above equation.

1 nautical mile = 6076.12 feet
1 foot = 12 inches

1 nautical mile / 12 (inches/foot) = 506.34 nautical mile * feet/inches

Does this mean nautical miles don't exist?

--- --- ---
Quote
I just divided unlike units and got a right answer  :o

I can do that too:
The speed limit on I-5: 70 miles/hour
Number of days in a week: 7 days / week

70 miles/hour  /  7 days/week = 10 miles*week/hour*days

It's a whole number, it has to mean something.

How about

7 days in a week
24 hours in a day
60 minutes in an hour

7 days / 60 minutes/hour  = 7/60  (days*hours/minutes)

7 days / 24 hours / day = 7/24  (days^2/hours)

Does this mean weeks don't exist?

The reason for my example with dollars, dimes and the example with pennies and with miles, feet, and inches work to get whole numbers is because both are constant measuring systems (There is also the furlong between the gap of feet and miles, but no one uses that anymore).

My examples make sense. A large number of feet should divide into a whole number of inches. Diving by different variables does work.

Some measuring systems or the units in them may not work, since they are not constant. If you are going to go around testing them all you will find issues, sure. The point is that systems that are based on multiples can be divided to get whole numbers.

Per the earth hours and days in the year, those should be multiples too. There should be some multiple where the number of hours in a day fits into the days in a year that is defined by the Sun cycle returning to the same spot in the sky after one north/south seasonal cycle (although, I see that someone refuted that definition in this thread). The whole cycle, seasons and all, should be divisible by the hour.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:33:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #162 on: April 24, 2018, 03:55:24 PM »
A large number of feet should divide into a whole number of inches. Diving by different variables does work.

Right so...2939 feet divided by 12 inches = 244.916666

Help! I broke distances!

Quote
Per the earth hours and days in the year, those should be multiples too.
OK, once again: Why would you think that the number of days in a year (which is the number of times the earth rotates in one orbit and an accurate value of which is not itself an integer) should be a multiple of 24, an arbitrary division of a day made up by the ancient Egyptians.
They are two completely unrelated numbers.

Quote
The whole cycle, seasons and all, should be divisible by the hour.

If you measure the year in hours, sure. Then that should divide by 24 (if you've simplified and used an integer number of days to do the calculation).
But if you don't, or if you mix up days and hours you'll get a meaningless answer.
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #163 on: April 24, 2018, 04:06:42 PM »
The reason for my example with dollars, dimes and the example with pennies and with miles, feet, and inches work to get whole numbers is because both are constant measuring systems.

...and our system of seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc isn't?

One works on multiples of 10 and the other system works on multiples of 8 (there is also the furlong between the gap of feet and miles, but no one uses that anymore).

Actually, someone does. Horse races are measured in furlongs.

My examples make sense.

There are many here who disagree


A large number of feet should divide into a whole number of inches.

etc etc

The whole cycle, seasons and all, should be divisible by the hour.

Why? Says who, apart from you?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #164 on: April 24, 2018, 05:00:34 PM »
A large number of feet should divide into a whole number of inches. Diving by different variables does work.

Right so...2939 feet divded by 12 inches = 244.916666

Help! I broke distances!

You are right. I made a mistake. Let me see if I can clear that up.

I should have said "A large number of inches will divide into a small number of feet with a whole number, if those feet fit".

2939 inches divided by 12 inches in a foot = 244.916666 feet. The foot does not fit into 2939 inches.

If we try another number that is divisible by an appropriate factor, it does work.

2928 inches divided by 12 inches in a foot = 244 feet. The foot does fit into 2928 inches.

Addressing my previous example:

Quote
1 Miles = 5280 Feet
1 Foot = 12 inches
5280 Feet / 12 inches = 440

This works because there is a common multiple between miles and feet and inches.

Quote
34 Miles = 179520 Feet
34 Feet = 408 Inches

179520 Feet / 408 Inches = 440

Change both the numbers on the left to 34 (or another number), compute the number of feet and inches, and we get the same ratio.

Again, it doesn't work with all units of measurement. There must be a common multiple. Not all measurement systems are constants.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:11:44 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #165 on: April 24, 2018, 05:09:21 PM »
Again, it doesn't work between all units of measurement. There must be a common multiple. Not all measurement systems are constants.
Right!

And here's the point. There is no common multiple between days in a year and hours in a day.
They are defined completely separately in different ways for different reasons.
The first of them, if we're being accurate, isn't even an integer.
This is why your divisions aren't working.
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Offline Stagiri

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #166 on: April 24, 2018, 05:11:01 PM »
Dear Mr. Bishop,
Could you, please, help me understand why you think a single orbit around the Sun should consist of an integer of rotations (of the Earth, of course)? Thank you.
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #167 on: April 24, 2018, 05:56:22 PM »
Dear Mr. Bishop,
Could you, please, help me understand why you think a single orbit around the Sun should consist of an integer of rotations (of the Earth, of course)? Thank you.

I second that request.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #168 on: April 24, 2018, 06:15:15 PM »
I will attempt an explanation.

--- --- ---

Step 1.

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it (lets call them Sub-Degrees), 24 Sub-Degrees should fit neatly into the 360 degree circle.

360 degrees / 24 sub-degrees = 15

The result should be a whole number.

The 360 degree circle is the highest hierarchical entity of the sub-degree, similar to how 100% of a pie is the highest hierarchical entity of the pie slices that fit within it.

--- --- ---

Step 2.

Now lets cut the line of the circle in Step 1. and lay the line out flat on a flat surface. Lets also rename Degrees to Mega-Lengths and Sub-Degrees to Sub-Lengths now for less confusion.

We have a line that is 360 Mega-Legths. Each Mega-Length has 24 Sub-Lengths in it.

360 Mega-Lengths / 24 Sub-Lengths = 15

The Sub-Length fits neatly into the 360 Mega-Length. Same thing, we are just mentally visualizing it as lengths now to show that the scenario can be laid out flat.

--- --- ---

Step 3.

The 365.24 days year is like that 360 degree circle. The extra 5.24 days was added for for, I believe, the elongation of the earth's route along the sun.

It's an oval. But ovals still have 360 degrees in them, so the analogy with Step 1 is maintained.

Lets now consider the 365.24 day year as the length of the oval. We can call the days Mega-Lengths and the hours Sub-Lengths for less confusion. Each Mega-Length has 24 Sub-Lengths.

Now cut the oval and lay the lines down on a flat surface. We are working with lengths now, like the in Step 2.

We have a line that has 365.24 Mega-Lengths in it. Each Mega-Length has 24 Sub-Lengths.

365.24 Mega-Lengths / 24 Sub-Lengths = 15.21

This is not a whole number. The Sub-Length does not fit into the whole Mega-Length.

--- --- ---

Does that make a little more sense?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 12:20:29 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Stagiri

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #169 on: April 24, 2018, 06:18:10 PM »
I will attempt an explanation.

--- --- ---

Step 1.

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it (lets call them Sub-Degrees), the 24 sub-degrees should fit neatly into the 360 degree circle.

360 degrees / 24 sub-degrees = 15

The result should be a whole number.

The 360 degree circle is the higher hierarchical entity of the sub-degree, similar to how 100% of a pie is the higher hierarchical entity of the pie slices that fit within it.

--- --- ---

Step 2.

Not lets cut the circle in Step 1. and lay the line out flat on a circle. Lets also rename Degrees to Mega-Lengths and Sub-Degrees to Sub-Lengths now for less confusion.

We have 360 Mega-Legths. Each Mega Units has 24 Sub-Lengths.

360 Mega-Lengths / 24 Sub-Lengths = 15

The Sub-Length needs to fit into the 360 Mega-Length. Same thing, we are just visualizing it as lengths now to show that the scenario can be laid out flat.

--- --- ---

Step 3.

The 365.24 days year is like that 360 degree circle. The extra 5.24 days was added for for, I believe, the elongation of the earth's route along the sun.

It's an oval. But ovals still have 360 degrees in them, so the analogy is maintained.

If we consider the 365.24 days year as the length of the oval. We can call the days Mega-Lengths and the hours Sub-Lengths.

Now lay the lines down on a flat surface. We are working with lengths now, like the above analogy.

We have 365.24 Mega-Units.

We want to see if 24 Sub-Units fit into it..

365.24 / 24 = 15.21

This is not a while number. The Sub-Units does not fit into the whole Mega-Unit length.

--- --- ---

Does that make a little more sense?

You've misunderstood what I've written. I understand your calculations (possible flaws aside). I'm asking you why this would pose a problem to the GET.
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #170 on: April 24, 2018, 06:21:21 PM »
2939 inches divided by 12 inches in a foot = 244.916666 feet. The foot does not fit into 2939 inches.

Look! You just did units correctly!
Quote
If we try another number that is divisible by an appropriate factor, it does work.

2928 inches divided by 12 inches in a foot = 244 feet. The foot does fit into 2928 inches.

Addressing my previous example:

Quote
1 Miles = 5280 Feet
1 Foot = 12 inches
5280 Feet / 12 inches = 440

This works because there is a common multiple between miles and feet and inches.

Now you're doing units wrong again.
5280 feet / 12 (inches/foot) = 440 foot^2/inches

This is only an integer coincidentally. There is no reason the mile could not have been defined as 5380 feet or 5281 feet.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #171 on: April 24, 2018, 06:35:42 PM »

The 365.24 days year is like that 360 degree circle. The extra 5.24 days was added for for, I believe, the elongation of the earth's route along the sun.

You have that backwards. The 365.24 days in the year came first, and the degrees in the circle came as an approximation to that. Nobody knows for sure who did it, but it's pretty clear that it was chosen because 360 is a nice number that is divisible by lots of factors. It's even possible that some civilizations thought that the year was 360 days long. If so, it is because they either hadn't perfected astronomy or they let dogma drive their decisions.

That doesn't change the fact that the number of days in a year is 365.24

Quote

It's an oval. But ovals still have 360 degrees in them, so the analogy with Step 1 is maintained.

If we consider the 365.24 days year as the length of the oval. We can call the days Mega-Lengths and the hours Sub-Lengths.

Now lay the lines down on a flat surface. We are working with lengths now, like the above analogy.

We have 365.24 Mega-Units.

We want to see if 24 Sub-Units fit into it..

365.24 / 24 = 15.21

This is not a while number. The Sub-Units does not fit into the whole Mega-Unit length.

--- --- ---

Does that make a little more sense?

Consider the nautical mile. This is defined as the distance between 1 minute of latitude lines on the earth. I know that you believe that latitude is a real thing that can be measured by looking at the angle to the north star, independent of whether there's a globe or not.

So, people went out and measured  and determined that the nautical mile is 6072.12 feet. Would you insist that this can't be true because the nautical mile must be an integer number of feet?
People went out and measured and determined that the year is 365.24 days long. Why would you insist this can't be true because it can't be evenly divided by 360 or any factors thereof?

Neither number is nice and divisible, but the universe is under no obligation to use nice round numbers or to be easily understandable by humans.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #172 on: April 24, 2018, 06:51:40 PM »
Step 1.

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it (lets call them Sub-Degrees), the 24 sub-degrees should fit neatly into the 360 degree circle.
No!  :D

Are you doing this deliberately?!

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it then all that means is that there are
360 x 24 = 8640 sub-degrees in the circle. That is literally all that means.

360 DOES happen to exactly divide into 24 but that's only because you happen to have picked two numbers where one is the multiple of the other.

360 degrees in a circle is a definition - it may be related to the days in a year, there is some debate about that, other theories are that some ancient civilisations used a base 60 numbering system and it's related to that.

24 hours in a day is also a definition - it seems to be something to do with the ancient Egyptians.

Both are highly divisible numbers which may also be a reason for those numbers being defined that way, so it's not such a reach that 360 happens to divide exactly by 24. But they are defined in different ways for different historic reasons, there is no particular reason one should divide neatly into the other.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #173 on: April 24, 2018, 09:34:50 PM »
I will attempt an explanation.

--- --- ---

Step 1.

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it (lets call them Sub-Degrees). 24 Sub-Degrees should fit neatly into the 360 degree circle.

360 degrees / 24 sub-degrees = 15

The result should be a whole number.

The 360 degree circle is the higher hierarchical entity of the sub-degree, similar to how 100% of a pie is the higher hierarchical entity of the pie slices that fit within it.

--- --- ---

Step 2.

Now lets cut the line of the circle in Step 1. and lay the line out flat on a flat surface. Lets also rename Degrees to Mega-Lengths and Sub-Degrees to Sub-Lengths now for less confusion.

We have a line that is 360 Mega-Legths. Each Mega-Length has 24 Sub-Lengths in it.

360 Mega-Lengths / 24 Sub-Lengths = 15

The Sub-Length needs to fit into the 360 Mega-Length. Same thing, we are just visualizing it as lengths now to show that the scenario can be laid out flat.

--- --- ---

Step 3.

The 365.24 days year is like that 360 degree circle. The extra 5.24 days was added for for, I believe, the elongation of the earth's route along the sun.

It's an oval. But ovals still have 360 degrees in them, so the analogy with Step 1 is maintained.

Lets now consider the 365.24 day year as the length of the oval. We can call the days Mega-Lengths and the hours Sub-Lengths for less confusion.

Now cut the oval and lay the lines down on a flat surface. We are working with lengths now, like the in Step 2.

We have 365.24 Mega-Lengths.

We want to see if 24 Sub-Lengths fit into it..

365.24 / 24 = 15.21

This is not a whole number. The Sub-Length does not fit into the whole Mega-Length.

--- --- ---

Does that make a little more sense?

 The earth doesn't orbit the sun at a constant speed, so how would that ever work unless the earths spin varied its speed to match?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #174 on: April 24, 2018, 09:40:26 PM »
Step 1.

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it (lets call them Sub-Degrees), the 24 sub-degrees should fit neatly into the 360 degree circle.
No!  :D

Are you doing this deliberately?!

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it then all that means is that there are
360 x 24 = 8640 sub-degrees in the circle. That is literally all that means.

360 DOES happen to exactly divide into 24 but that's only because you happen to have picked two numbers where one is the multiple of the other.

360 degrees in a circle is a definition - it may be related to the days in a year, there is some debate about that, other theories are that some ancient civilisations used a base 60 numbering system and it's related to that.

24 hours in a day is also a definition - it seems to be something to do with the ancient Egyptians.

Both are highly divisible numbers which may also be a reason for those numbers being defined that way, so it's not such a reach that 360 happens to divide exactly by 24. But they are defined in different ways for different historic reasons, there is no particular reason one should divide neatly into the other.

You are saying that it's a "coincidence" that 360 is a multiple of 24. But the reason for defining it that way doesn't matter. It's a multiple.

We can divide by the two for the exact same reason we can divided dollars by dimes and cents, despite being units of different names. There is a common factor. Since there is a common factor, the measuring system is constant. It is not just meaningless numbers being divided together.

Addressing my previous example:

Quote
Quote
1 Miles = 5280 Feet
1 Foot = 12 inches
5280 Feet / 12 inches = 440

This works because there is a common multiple between miles and feet and inches.

Now you're doing units wrong again.
5280 feet / 12 (inches/foot) = 440 foot^2/inches

This is only an integer coincidentally. There is no reason the mile could not have been defined as 5380 feet or 5281 feet.

Sure, there is no hard reason it could not have been defined differently; but people who defined it wanted some kind of ratio or common factor to other smaller units of measurements. It is not the greatest idea to define your units willy nilly. The Imperial System isn't entirely constant with some of the unit types either, which is why there is a (failed) push in the US to change to the Metric System which is constant all throughout.

1 kilometer = 1000 meters
1 meter = 100 centimerers

There is a common factor between the two numbers which is good for a measuring system.

1000 meters / 100 centimeters = 10. Whole number. 100 fits into 1000 10 times. We can compare "unlike" units of measurements because there is a common factor.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:53:46 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #175 on: April 24, 2018, 09:41:54 PM »
I will attempt an explanation.

--- --- ---

Step 1.

If you take a circle that is 360 degrees around and imagine that each of those degrees had 24 sub units in it (lets call them Sub-Degrees), 24 Sub-Degrees should fit neatly into the 360 degree circle.

Yes, (24*360) 8640 of them will. 24 sub-degrees still only fills one degree, though.

360 degrees / 24 sub-degrees = 15

Only an integer because you've picked two numbers which neatly fit. 36/24 = 1.5, so 360/24 = 15.

One twenty-fourth of 360 is 15.  24 times 15 = 360. So what?   


 
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #176 on: April 24, 2018, 09:45:53 PM »
You are saying that it's a "coincidence" that 360 is a multiple of 24.

No, I think you picked those figures to fit your calculation. No coincidence involved, other than in your head

But the reason for defining it that way doesn't matter. It's a multiple.

It's not just meaningless numbers being divided together.

That's exactly what it is
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #177 on: April 24, 2018, 09:49:29 PM »
It doesn't matter what you call the units, or the history on how it was defined. The numbers are multiples and therefore can be divided to get whole numbers.

If we had a system that was composed of multiples of 8 it would work as well.

1 SuperLegoBlock = 64 MegaLegoBlocks
1 MegaLegoBlock = 16 SmallLegoBlocks

64 MegaLegoBlocks / 16 SmallLegoBlocks = 4. Whole number. 16 SmallLegoBlocks will fit into 64 MegaLegoBlocks.

It doesn't matter what you call it. 64 and 16 share a common multiple. Different units of this measuring system can be divided in this manner.

360 and 24 share a common multiple, and so these units, whatever you call them, can be divided. This measuring system is based on multiples. You can call it the Spinning Ball Earth Measuring System or the Piles of Popcorn Measuring System. It is a good measuring system which gives consistent results when you manipulate it in this fashion.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:54:33 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #178 on: April 24, 2018, 09:55:26 PM »
I've been trying to follow the discussion, but I've lost the thread. Seems there's some meta-debate.

But as for solar vs. sidereal days, I sketched this up to try to illustrate the relationship between the rotation of the earth vs its orbit about the sun.
 


Might help resolve the meta issue. Might not. Not sure.

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #179 on: April 24, 2018, 09:58:02 PM »
It doesn't matter what you call the units, or the history on how it was defined. The numbers are multiples and therefore can be divided to get whole numbers.

If we had a system that was composed of multiples of 8 it would work as well.

1 SuperLegoBlock = 64 MegaLegoBlocks
1 MediumLegoBlock = 16 SmallLegoBlocks

64 MegaLegoBlocks / 16 SmallLegoBlocks = 4. Whole number.

It doesn't matter what you call it. 64 and 16 share a common multiple. Different "units" of this measuring system can be divided in this manner.

360 and 24 share a common multiple, and so these units, whatever you call them, can be divided. This measuring system is based on multiples. You can call it the Lego Block Measuring System or the Piles of Popcorn Measuring System. It is a good measuring system which gives consistent results when you manipulate it in this fashion.

Great, you've discovered multiplication tables and such. 

Tell us what bearing this has upon the rotational duration of the Earth and its orbit around the Sun.
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