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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #100 on: April 23, 2018, 06:33:06 PM »
I predict #95 will be Tom's "claim of victory" post, and nothing further will be forthcoming.
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #101 on: April 23, 2018, 06:36:00 PM »
What are you trying to prove here Tom? That there isn't a whole number of days in one orbital year/period? We know this, hence leap year. That this somehow invalidates...something? How? Why? What? Why can't the rate of rotation NOT be an even ratio to the rate of orbit? What prevents this?

Look up the definition of a Solar Year. The sun needs to return to its same position. Solar Noon needs to be the same after a Solar Year.
Oh, awesome. We can /thread this then, because if you haven't noticed the equinoxes don't occur on the same day every year. Because our calendar system isn't defined by solar noons. In fact, solar noon for any location isn't even regular in time between them, due to variances in the Earths orbit and rotation mostly. See: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/solar-noon.html Elastic Solar Noon.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #102 on: April 23, 2018, 06:39:36 PM »
This is simple math.

This is condescension

A grouping of Twenty Four 24 hour days has 576 hours.
24 x 24 = 576
A year has 8765.76 hours in it.
365.24 x 24 = 8765.76
The ratio is 8765.76 hours / 576 hours

What ratio? All you've done is divide the number of hours in a year by the number of hours in 24 days. Why would you do this?

Can we see if a grouping of Twenty Four 24 hour days (576 hours) fits into a year that is 8765.76 hours long?
8765.76 hours / 576 hours = 15.21. No. It does not fit.

So what? What does that prove?

This is the same ratio as 365.24 / 24, and gives the same answer.

Again, all you're doing with this calculation is deriving one twenty-fourth of a year. You're not deriving any 'ratio' between anything that needs to be ratioed. You're calculating that 1/24th of a year is 15.21 days.

You are right. It also represents 15.21 days. 1/24th of a year is 15.21. It can also be interpreted like that. But division of this manner can also be interpreted on how many times the smaller number on the right fits into the bigger number on the left. The result should be a whole number.

The rest of this thread seems to be just clarification about how division and ratios work, to check if the math of dividing years by days was correct.

... but you didn't divide years by days.

You've persistently divided 365.24 by 24  (days by hours) to arrive at a number of days that represents one twenty-fourth of a year (15.21).

We already know that a day of 24 hours doesn't fit exactly into a year of 365.24 days. The clue is in the 0.24. Otherwise the year  would be 365 days (365 sets of 24 hours), an exact number. Dividing this by 24 still gives one twenty-fourth of a year. This is why we have leap years. 

362.24 / 24 is equivalent in ratio to as if we broke this out by hours, as I wrote about on the previous page.

A Solar Day needs to fit exactly into a Solar Year of 365.24 days because the sun needs to be in the same place in the sky at that point. 12 PM Solar Noon at the start needs to end up at 12 PM Solar Noon at the end.

What are you trying to prove here Tom? That there isn't a whole number of days in one orbital year/period? We know this, hence leap year. That this somehow invalidates...something? How? Why? What? Why can't the rate of rotation NOT be an even ratio to the rate of orbit? What prevents this?

Look up the definition of a Solar Year. The sun needs to return to its same position. Solar Noon needs to be the same after a Solar Year.
Oh, awesome. We can /thread this then, because if you haven't noticed the equinoxes don't occur on the same day every year. Because our calendar system isn't defined by solar noons. In fact, solar noon for any location isn't even regular in time between them, due to variances in the Earths orbit and rotation mostly. See: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/solar-noon.html Elastic Solar Noon.

If you try to use the amount of time the earth "actually rotates at" in relation to the stars, the Sidreal Day, it doesn't work either.

The Solar Year isn't based on the 365 day calendar. The Solar Year is ~365.24 days. Leap year is incorporated into the 365 day calendar to try and account for that.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:44:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #103 on: April 23, 2018, 06:43:25 PM »
You are right. It also represents 15.21 days. 1/24th of a year is 15.21. It can also be interpreted like that. But division of this manner can also be interpreted on how many times the smaller number on the right fits into the bigger number on the left. The result should be a whole number.
WHY?! Why should it?
Why should the number of DAYS in a year divided by the number of HOURS in a day be a whole number?! They are completely different units.

The number of HOURS in a year divided by the number if HOURS in a day (if we are simplifying and assuming exactly 365 days and using that to calculate the number of hours in a year) will be a whole number because the unit is the same. But if you mix up the units you get a completely meaningless number.

Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #104 on: April 23, 2018, 06:44:19 PM »
No-one but you is saying that a solar day should fit exactly into a solar year though.

This is extraordinary.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #105 on: April 23, 2018, 06:47:25 PM »
You are right. It also represents 15.21 days. 1/24th of a year is 15.21. It can also be interpreted like that. But division of this manner can also be interpreted on how many times the smaller number on the right fits into the bigger number on the left. The result should be a whole number.

Only if the units used on each side of the divisor MATCH. They do not.

At least two others have stated your calculation to be meaningless as well as I, but you persist.

What do you claim to have 'proved' here?
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #106 on: April 23, 2018, 06:48:51 PM »
No-one but you is saying that a solar day should fit exactly into a solar year though.

This is extraordinary.
Thing is, even if it did all that would mean would be a year is exactly 'x' days where 'x' is an integer.
How 'x' is divided into 'y' hours is irrelevant and 'x/y' would still be a meaningless number whether it happened to be an integer or not.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #107 on: April 23, 2018, 06:49:44 PM »
You are right. It also represents 15.21 days. 1/24th of a year is 15.21. It can also be interpreted like that. But division of this manner can also be interpreted on how many times the smaller number on the right fits into the bigger number on the left. The result should be a whole number.
WHY?! Why should it?
Why should the number of DAYS in a year divided by the number of HOURS in a day be a whole number?! They are completely different units.

The number of HOURS in a year divided by the number if HOURS in a day (if we are simplifying and assuming exactly 365 days and using that to calculate the number of hours in a year) will be a whole number because the unit is the same. But if you mix up the units you get a completely meaningless number.

I have already broken it out by hours. If you take a group of 24 days compared to the 365.24 day year, the number of hours in both is equivalent in ratio to 365.24 days / 24 hours.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
This is simple math.

A grouping of Twenty Four 24 hour days has 576 hours.

24 x 24 = 576

A year has 8765.76 hours in it.

365.24 x 24 = 8765.76

The ratio is 8765.76 hours / 576 hours

I am no longer using the year / day calculation.

Can we see if a grouping of Tewenty Four 24 hour days (576 hours) fits into a year that is 8765.76 hours long?

8765.76 hours / 576 hours = 15.21. No. It does not fit.

This is the same ratio as 365.24 / 24, and gives the same answer.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:54:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #108 on: April 23, 2018, 06:52:55 PM »
If you take a group of 24 days compared to the 365.24 day year, the number of hours in both is equivalent in ratio to 365.24 days / 24 hours.

Of course it is.   365.24 / 24 gives the same result as (365.24*24) / (24*24)

So what, though? Why take a group of 24 days in the first place?

A week is seven days. It's not a multiple of that.
It's not the number of days in any month of the year.

It seems to be an arbitrary number you've picked at random.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:58:16 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #109 on: April 23, 2018, 07:06:13 PM »
Let me have another go. Let's assume there are:
'd' days in a year,
'h' hours in a day,
'm' minutes in an hour and
's' seconds in a minute.

Out of those only 'd' is a number dictated by the globe earth, it's the number of days it takes the planet to orbit its star. And let's pretend it's a whole number.

h, m and s are all arbitrary.
You can divide a day how you like
You can divide an hour how you like
You can divide a minute how you like.
We as humans have agreed on 24, 60 and 60 but we could have equally chosen other numbers and it would make no difference.

Hours in a year = d x h
Minutes in a year = d x h x m
Seconds in a year = d x h x m x s

It's not particularly useful to know the number of seconds in a year but it does at least mean something.
And you can divide that by d, h, m or s and get a whole number, because it is the product of the 4 numbers.

Divide by s and you get back to minutes in a year.
But if you divide by h, what do you get? It would be an integer but is it a meaningful one?
I'm not sure it would be, it doesn't represent anything. It would be a 24th of a year, in seconds.
I guess it's the number of seconds between, say, midnight and 1am each day in a year.
So what? It doesn't mean anything.

The point is there is a hierarchy in time, year, day, hour, minute, second.
You can't just arbitrarily divide one of these by another and expect to get a result which means anything.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 07:08:48 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #110 on: April 23, 2018, 07:20:30 PM »
OK, so what informs the assumption that you must have a whole number of days in a year. Put another way, why must the orbital period of a planet, and the rotational period of a planet, be evenly divisible? I have a planet that takes 12 hours to complete a full rotation. It takes 117 hours to complete an orbital cycle. Can this planet exist? Why or why not?

Earth happens to have a relatively close relationship between the two. But it's not exact. This is why the equinoxes vary year to year, why we need leap years, and why local noon doesn't always correspond to solar noon. These are conventions and similar to adjust for the fact that, as you've pointed out, there isn't an even ratio between a rotational period, and an orbital period.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #111 on: April 23, 2018, 07:30:43 PM »
i see what's happening here.  tom is assuming too much about this diagram:


tom, this diagram is schematic.  you're assuming that the earth returns precisely to position 1 (the top position, let's say) at the end of a full period.  it doesn't.
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2018, 07:36:56 PM »
To be fair that diagram even says that each point isn't the same day each year so there is a clue there.
Without leap days it would drift over time.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Macarios

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #113 on: April 23, 2018, 07:46:33 PM »
Division of the number of days in a year and the number of hours in a day ( Days in a Year / Hrs in a Day ) must be a whole number because each Day in the Year is a representative of 24 Hours. If this is true then the ratios must relate.

"Year in calendar" is specific number of days, not specific number of degrees that Earth travelled around Sun.
We are tryig to make them fit, that's why our calendar year sometimes has additional day.

"Tropical year" is not in calendar, it is in astronomy, and it is not based on whole number of solar days.
It is based on location in orbit, regardless of the direction in which the same meridian looks.

Calendar year and Tropical year are two different things.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 07:48:35 PM by Macarios »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #114 on: April 23, 2018, 08:00:32 PM »
If you take a group of 24 days compared to the 365.24 day year, the number of hours in both is equivalent in ratio to 365.24 days / 24 hours.

Of course it is.   365.24 / 24 gives the same result as (365.24*24) / (24*24)

So what, though? Why take a group of 24 days in the first place?

A week is seven days. It's not a multiple of that.
It's not the number of days in any month of the year.

It seems to be an arbitrary number you've picked at random.

It is not a random number. When you are multiplying the Year by 24 then you are breaking out the units that are contained within the Day. You need to multiply the day by 24 as well to maintain the equivalence.

Devils Advocate

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #115 on: April 23, 2018, 08:19:41 PM »
You need to multiply the day by 24 as well to maintain the equivalence.

Tom there is NO equivalence! You're trying to balance two completely separate events! If this thread was an animal any decent vet would put it out of its misery... :-[
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 08:29:33 PM by Devils Advocate »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #116 on: April 23, 2018, 08:26:40 PM »
If you take a group of 24 days compared to the 365.24 day year, the number of hours in both is equivalent in ratio to 365.24 days / 24 hours.

Of course it is.   365.24 / 24 gives the same result as (365.24*24) / (24*24)

So what, though? Why take a group of 24 days in the first place?

A week is seven days. It's not a multiple of that.
It's not the number of days in any month of the year.

It seems to be an arbitrary number you've picked at random.

It is not a random number. When you are multiplying the Year by 24 then you are breaking out the units that are contained within the Day. You need to multiply the day by 24 as well to maintain the equivalence.
Then you're not doing anything to the equation. So of course it gives you the same answer back.

24/8=3
(24*8)/(8*8)=3

The issue is the units you're using. Currently you're dividing days by hours. Which doesn't give a meaningful answer. f.e. 7 days/24 hours=0.2916 days/hours. What is that? Nothing. It has no inherent meaning.

When you multiply you get the same issue. (7 days*24 hours)=168 hours/wk. (24 hours*24 hours)=576 hours. Sure they're both ostensibly in hours, but you've still go that 'wk' bit technically. You can't do anything with the pair of them that means anything.

Again, your claim is that x solar rotations, must go evenly into 1 orbital cycle. Unfortunately, you're just incorrect. They have no required correlation.

Devils Advocate

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #117 on: April 23, 2018, 08:33:42 PM »
your claim is that x solar rotations, must go evenly into 1 orbital cycle.

Tom, is this what you are asserting or do you wish to retract this ideal?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #118 on: April 23, 2018, 08:54:38 PM »
It is not a random number. When you are multiplying the Year by 24 then you are breaking out the units that are contained within the Day. You need to multiply the day by 24 as well to maintain the equivalence.

At least three others assert this to be meaningless. Why are you persisting with it?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #119 on: April 23, 2018, 10:18:42 PM »
Again, I see that you guys are trying to divide smaller numbers by bigger numbers to disprove this. You can't do that in division. The first number needs to be the biggest hierarchical group in the situation and the largest number.


You need to multiply the day by 24 as well to maintain the equivalence.

Tom there is NO equivalence! You're trying to balance two completely separate events! If this thread was an animal any decent vet would put it out of its misery... :-[


1 Year = 365.24 Days
1 Days = 24 Hours

365.24 Days / 24 Hours <--- You say this is invalid

But look at these:

--- --- ---

1 Dollar = 10 Dimes
1 Dime = 10 Pennies

10 Dimes / 10 Pennies = 1  <--- But this is correct. We got a whole number. 10 Dimes fits into 10 Pennies 1 time. 10 fits into 10 1 time.

--- --- ---

1 Mile = 5280 Feet
1 Foot = 12 inches

5280 Feet / 12 inches = 440  <--- This is correct as well. We got a whole number. 12 inches can fit neatly into 5280 feet 440 times. 12 fits neatly into 5280 440 times.

The 1 Foot = 12 inches is implicit in the above equation.

--- --- ---

I just divided unlike units and got a right answer  :o
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 03:24:52 PM by Tom Bishop »