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Offline Tom Bishop

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Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« on: April 22, 2018, 10:31:35 AM »
There is something that seems wrong with the way the earth rotates around the Sun. Consider the following image that we are taught in school:




Assume that New York City is in its Solar Noon (look at where New York City is in the top and bottom September and March figures in the above illustration). After 6 months the motions suggests that New York City will be in darkness during its noontime.

Some Rough Calculations

Napkin Calculation 1

Day = 24 hours
Year = 365 days

365 days / 2 = 182.5 days in 6 months
24 hours x 182.5 days = 4380 hours in 6 months
4380 hours / 360 (since the sun rotates around the earth 360 degrees in one day) = 12.16666 hour offset

Earth should be offset by 12.16666 hours (similar to the above image)? NYC should be in night?

--- --- ---

Napkin Calculation 2

According to RET particulars, the earth doesn't rotate at exactly 24 hours a day, and the earth doesn't have an exactly 365 day year, which is why we have to change times and add a leap year every 4 years.

Sidreal Day = 23.933333 hours
Sidreal Year = 365.25636 days

365.25636 days per year / 2 = 182.62818 days in 6 months
23.933333 hours per day x 182.62818 days = 4370.90104712394 hours in 6 months
4370.90104712394  / 360 (since the sun rotates around the earth 360 degrees in one day) = 12.14139179 hours offset

Earth should be offset by 12.14139179 hours? NYC should be in night?

--- --- ---

Napkin Calculation 3

Some sources say that the earth "actually" rotates 360.98 degrees per day.

360.98 degrees in a day x 182.62818 days in 6 months
= 65925.1204164 degrees in 6 months
ans / 360.98 = offset is 183.62818 degrees.

Earth should be offset by 183.62818 degrees? NYC should be in night?

--- --- ---

Corrections with the 360.98 figure

Using 360.98 degrees per day in the second calculation, replacing 360 with 360.98, gives an offset of 12.1082 hours. The offset still says that NYC should be in night.

Replacing 360 with 360.98 in the third calculation gives an offset answer of 182.625 degrees. The offset still says that NYC should be in night.

---

I may be going about this entirely wrong. Can I have some help with this seemingly glaring problem?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:58:21 AM by Tom Bishop »

Devils Advocate

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2018, 11:15:49 AM »
Are you dividing the number of hours in six months by the number of degrees the sun rotates in one day?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2018, 11:24:35 AM »
Are you dividing the number of hours in six months by the number of degrees the sun rotates in one day?

Yes, that is the method I am using. I get the number of hours in 6 months and divide by 360 in the first two calculations. I am also dividing by 360.98, which is what some sources allege that the earth rotates in degrees in one day. The offset in both cases seems to suggest that NYC will be in night during its noontime.

Devils Advocate

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 11:30:34 AM »
Not sure why you divide the number of hours in 6 months by no of degrees in one day?
 If you multiply 182.5 by 360 it gives 65700 so now we have total hours in 6 months: 4380 ÷ total degrees in6 months:65700 which gives us 0.0666.
This makes more sense to me and fits with us observed or an I just being thick? (I'm totally open to that being the case here :-) 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 11:38:03 AM »
Not sure why you divide the number of hours in 6 months by no of degrees in one day?
 If you multiply 182.5 by 360 it gives 65700 so now we have total hours in 6 months: 4380 ÷ total degrees in6 months:65700 which gives us 0.0666.
This makes more sense to me and fits with us observed or an I just being thick? (I'm totally open to that being the case here :-)

I'm dividing by 360 or 360.98 because I am dividing to get the offset in a day.

Since you are dividing by the hour, wouldn't that give us the degree offset per hour?

Devils Advocate

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2018, 11:50:36 AM »
How about 182.5÷360 which is total days divided by degrees which gives us 0.5?
I think your sum is mixing variables too much?

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Offline Stagiri

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 12:08:23 PM »
Dear Mr. Bishop,
Could you, please, help me understand why you divide the number by 360°?
Thank you.
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

Devils Advocate

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 12:09:19 PM »
I don't understand. Why would we take six months in days and divide by 360?

Look at Napkin Calculation 3. I am finding out how many degrees the earth spins over 6 months (according to a Sidreal Year), and then I am dividing by 360.98. I am of the opinion that it clearly shows the issue, and I do not mix variables in this calculation:

Quote
Napkin Calculation 3

Some sources say that the earth "actually" rotates 360.98 degrees per day.

360.98 degrees in a day x 182.62818 days in 6 months
= 65925.1204164 degrees in 6 months
ans / 360.98 = offset is 183.62818 degrees.

Earth should be offset by 183.62818 degrees? NYC should be in night?

Right got it, my bad I think I'm on the same page as you now

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 12:15:31 PM »
I was editing and deleted a post. Anyone interested can read it above in Devils Advocate's post.

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 12:23:29 PM »
I don't understand. Why would we take six months in days and divide by 360?

Look at Napkin Calculation 3. I am finding out how many degrees the earth spins over 6 months (according to a Sidreal Year), and then I am dividing by 360.98. I am of the opinion that it clearly shows the issue, and I do not mix variables in this calculation:

Quote
Napkin Calculation 3

Some sources say that the earth "actually" rotates 360.98 degrees per day.

360.98 degrees in a day x 182.62818 days in 6 months
= 65925.1204164 degrees in 6 months
ans / 360.98 = offset is 183.62818 degrees.

Earth should be offset by 183.62818 degrees? NYC should be in night?

I'd like to point out that you multiply 182.62818 [days] by 360.98 [°] and then you divide the answer by 360.98 [°]. So you get 182.62818 [days]. Not very useful, is it? Or did I misunderstand that calculation?
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 12:28:22 PM »
Hundreds upon thousands of astronomers and others in related disciplines have looked at the relative motions of Sun, Earth and Moon over hundreds, or thousands of years.

Their work has been distilled into hundreds, possibly thousands of textbooks, and many of them have used optical instruments and high-level maths in preference to napkins and simple arithmetic.

Rather than using a school-level diagram as your starting point, why not start with a trip to your local library, and peruse some of these textbooks? Rather than using a napkin, look at what astronomers have used, and still use, for their empirical observations.

Why should I/we indulge you, and explain this in great detail, when it has already been detailed?

Your go-to response is to refer globe-earthers to one book, and one book only - ENaG.   I refer you to hundreds, possibly thousands, which deal with this matter. Surely you won't conclude that you're right, and they're all wrong?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 12:33:23 PM »
Napkin Calculation 1

Day = 24 hours
Year = 365 days

365 days / 2 = 182.5 days in 6 months
24 hours x 182.5 days = 4380 hours in 6 months
4380 hours / 360 (since the sun rotates around the earth 360 degrees in one day) = 12.16666 hour offset

Earth should be offset by 12.16666 hours (similar to the above image)? NYC should be in night?

If a day is defined as the period of time in which NY, at solar noon on day 1, returns to solar noon on day 2, and on day 3, then the whole calculation is moot.

6 months later, NY will still be returning to solar noon once per day
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 12:35:45 PM »
Dear Mr. Bishop,
Could you, please, help me understand why you divide the number by 360°?
Thank you.

I divided by 360 and 360.98 in Napkin Calculation #1 and #2 because this is a calculation involving hourly rotation (It started with 24 hours or 23.933333 hours in one rotation) and 360 represents one day. I didn't introduce the concept of a rotation when I introduced the 360 number.

I don't understand. Why would we take six months in days and divide by 360?

Look at Napkin Calculation 3. I am finding out how many degrees the earth spins over 6 months (according to a Sidreal Year), and then I am dividing by 360.98. I am of the opinion that it clearly shows the issue, and I do not mix variables in this calculation:

Quote
Napkin Calculation 3

Some sources say that the earth "actually" rotates 360.98 degrees per day.

360.98 degrees in a day x 182.62818 days in 6 months
= 65925.1204164 degrees in 6 months
ans / 360.98 = offset is 182.62818 degrees.

Earth should be offset by 182.62818 degrees? NYC should be in night?

I'd like to point out that you multiply 182.62818 [days] by 360.98 [°] and then you divide the answer by 360.98 [°]. So you get 182.62818 [days]. Not very useful, is it? Or did I misunderstand that calculation?

What I was going for was to show that when you divide you are facing the opposite way, which is why I stayed with degrees.

The offset is 182.62818 days from the starting point, as you can interpret that result in hours, but isn't the offset also 182.62818 degrees if you interpret the result in degrees since all of this takes place on a big circle?

However, since I was just reversing the calculation I did, I see the apparent weakness in that argument, but still maintain the above explanation.

How would you calculate this?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 12:55:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 01:10:37 PM »
"On a prograde planet like the Earth, the sidereal day is shorter than the solar day. At time 1, the Sun and a certain distant star are both overhead. At time 2, the planet has rotated 360° and the distant star is overhead again (1→2 = one sidereal day). But it is not until a little later, at time 3, that the Sun is overhead again (1→3 = one solar day). More simply, 1-2 is a complete rotation of the Earth, but because the revolution around the Sun affects the angle at which the Sun is seen from the Earth, 1-3 is how long it takes noon to return."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time

The core issue is with how you define a "day", and you didn't define it prior to commencing your napkin calcs.

At solar noon on day 1, and referring to the first image in the wiki above, solar noon has a line from centre of Earth, through observer AT Noon, to the centre of the Sun. Next day, Earth completes its 360 degree rotation, but the same line from centre of Earth to observer to sun is now NOT aligned with the centre of the sun. It has to rotate further to achieve this, because the Earth has moved in its orbit as well as rotating.

So calculations based on 360 degree rotation may well be misplaced.
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 01:29:38 PM »
Tumeni, thank you for participating. I need to go at the moment and can't read through your post and links, but will make a reply later.

Here is another version I came up with a little earlier, which even easier to visualize:

Napkin Calculation #4

We can agree that, according to the image in the OP, after one full route of the earth around the sun, Solar Noon will be in the same place.

Using the simple numbers --

Premise:

- The earth rotates once in a day (a day defined as once every 24 hours).
- One revolution of the earth around the sun is 365 days

Therefore, a day is a whole number in the above scheme.

If we divide 365 by 2 we do not get a whole number of days. We get 182.5 days. Therefore noon will be midnight.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 01:33:02 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 01:36:35 PM »
Tumeni, thank you for participating. I need to go at the moment and can't read through your post and links to give an in depth response, but will make a reply later. I think that I did address sidereal day, sidereal year, and 365.98 degree rotation though, and showed that they do not make much difference in the calculations.

Here is another version I came up with a little earlier, which even easier to visualize:

Napkin Calculation #4

We can agree that, according to the image in the OP, after one full route of the earth around the sun, Solar Noon will be in the same place.

Using the simple numbers --

Premise:

- The earth rotates once in a day (a day defined as once every 24 hours).
- One revolution of the earth around the sun is 365 days

Therefore, a day is a whole number in the above scheme.

If we divide 365 by 2 we do not get a whole number of days. We get 182.5 days. Therefore noon will be midnight.

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2018, 01:42:15 PM »
I don't understand. Why would we take six months in days and divide by 360?

Look at Napkin Calculation 3. I am finding out how many degrees the earth spins over 6 months (according to a Sidreal Year), and then I am dividing by 360.98. I am of the opinion that it clearly shows the issue, and I do not mix variables in this calculation:

Quote
Napkin Calculation 3

Some sources say that the earth "actually" rotates 360.98 degrees per day.

360.98 degrees in a day x 182.62818 days in 6 months
= 65925.1204164 degrees in 6 months
ans / 360.98 = offset is 182.62818 degrees.

Earth should be offset by 182.62818 degrees? NYC should be in night?

I'd like to point out that you multiply 182.62818 [days] by 360.98 [°] and then you divide the answer by 360.98 [°]. So you get 182.62818 [days]. Not very useful, is it? Or did I misunderstand that calculation?

What I was going for was to show that when you divide you are facing the opposite way, which is why I stayed with degrees.

The offset is 182.62818 days from the starting point, as you can interpret that result in hours, but isn't the offset also 182.62818 degrees if you interpret the result in degrees since all of this takes place on a big circle?

(...)

No, it isn't, because 1° does NOT equal 1 day. You can't just interpret things as you please. [day*°] divided by [°] is always [day] and nothing else. You'll have to come up with a different formula.

Tumeni, thank you for participating. I need to go at the moment and can't read through your post and links, but will make a reply later.

Here is another version I came up with a little earlier, which even easier to visualize:

Napkin Calculation #4

We can agree that, according to the image in the OP, after one full route of the earth around the sun, Solar Noon will be in the same place.

Using the simple numbers --

Premise:

- The earth rotates once in a day (a day defined as once every 24 hours).
- One revolution of the earth around the sun is 365 days

Therefore, a day is a whole number in the above scheme.

If we divide 365 by 2 we do not get a whole number of days. We get 182.5 days. Therefore noon will be midnight.

So, you've come to this cońclusion: in New York, 182 and a half days after solar noon it is midnight. Bravo.

EDIT: The problem with your calculations is that you assume the Earth's orbit to be a perfect circle, its speed to be constant and the Sun to be in the exact middle. None of which is claimed by the GE model.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 02:14:40 PM by Stagiri »
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2018, 01:45:43 PM »
tumeni is correct.  sidereal days and solar days have different lengths.

a sidereal day is 4 minutes shorter than a solar day.

4 minutes per solar day * 180 solar days = 720 minutes = 12 hours.

"sidereal noon" will lag behind solar noon by 12 hours after six months.  but we define time according to solar days, not sidereal days.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2018, 01:47:37 PM »
Napkin Calculation #4

Premise:

- The earth rotates once in a day (a day defined as once every 24 hours).
- One revolution of the earth around the sun is 365 days

Therefore, a day is a whole number in the above scheme.

If we divide 365 by 2 we do not get a whole number of days. We get 182.5 days. Therefore noon will be midnight.

Premise;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day

"A day, understood as the span of time it takes for the Earth to make one entire rotation with respect to the celestial background or a distant star (assumed to be fixed), is called a stellar day. This period of rotation is about 4 minutes less than 24 hours (23 hours 56 minutes and 4.1 seconds)..."

Using this premise, if we take 4 mins off each 24 hour day, for each of your 182.5 days, that adds up to (4*182.5)/60 = 12.2 hours. Roughly half a day.

So, where you've taken a day as exactly 24 hours, and concluded this places noon in the wrong place by around 12 hours half a year hence, if you take the actual day length, that places solar noon roughly twelve hours before this, which would be on the side of the Earth facing the sun, not away from it

Napkin calc #1 is therefore rendered moot.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 02:06:03 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2018, 02:30:40 PM »
Napkin Calculation 2

"4370.90104712394  / 360 (since the sun rotates around the earth 360 degrees in one day) = 12.14139179 hours offset"

I fail to see the logic in this. Number of hours divided by number of degrees in a circle yields number of hours taken to cover one degree of that circle, not an "offset" number of hours....
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