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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2014, 09:51:39 PM »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2014, 09:57:08 PM »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2014, 03:05:47 AM »
The industry does a pretty good job of that already.

Artists can choose not to sign with a company. They sign to reach a wider audience.
Most artists are not savvy enough to know how badly they're getting screwed by the company until its too late.
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Offline beardo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2014, 05:49:12 AM »
Record companies are the literal devil. You can make professional sounding music in your bedroom with a laptop and some speakers these days, which you only have to pay for once. No need to waste money on a record studio every time you record an album. And Internet makes distributing your music simple.
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2014, 12:32:40 PM »
I see no compelling reason why an artist or any discipline should not receive compensation for their work.
Entertainment and art should be free.
No it shouldn't. If someone is spending all their time trying to entertain others...then they should be compensated.
Entertainment and art should be free.
No it shouldn't. If someone is spending all their time trying to entertain others...then they should be compensated.
An artist should create/perform their art because they love doing so, not because they want to get rich.

you can't perform art without being alive and you can't live without food, water, and shelter.  Money allows you to have what you need to perform art.
People need money to live, beardo. If they can't make a living off of their art, then surely that would affect the quality of their art.
Donations, and a fucking job. Art should be a hobby.

The only compensation an artist or entertainer should require is the knowledge that their work have touched and entertained other people.

Why? If you want to enjoy a sofa, you pay someone for the time and materials it took to make your sofa. If you want to enjoy a song/ film/ book you should pay someone for the time and resources it took to make them. This whole 'artists should do stuff for free' attitude is bullshit. Why don't we aply this to whatever your job happens to be? "teachers should require only the knowledge that they've enlightened a child's life."

I'm currently trying to get a novel published, it took me months of my time to create. If someone gets enjoyment from it, why should that enjoyment be free? I'm not saying I want to be fabulously wealthy, but I would like to be compensated for providing you with entertainment.

Pay the people who make your life richer, you stingy bastard.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2014, 12:46:25 PM »
Why? If you want to enjoy a sofa, you pay someone for the time and materials it took to make your sofa.
A sofa is not art.

I'm currently trying to get a novel published, it took me months of my time to create. If someone gets enjoyment from it, why should that enjoyment be free?
Did you enjoy writing it? If yes, then is that not enough? If no, why did you write it?

I make music because I like making music, and I would never dream of charging people to listen to it. I'm just happy that there are people who like and appreciate it.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 12:53:58 PM by beardo »
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2014, 01:03:23 PM »
Quote
A sofa is not art.

So? You enjoy it.

Quote
Did you enjoy writing it? If yes, then is that not enough? If no, why did you write it?

Mostly, but because I work full-time (despite what my TFES login details might suggest) it took thrice as liong as it needed to, days of my free time were absorbed by it and line-editing isn't enjoyable. I'm not asking to be the next J.K.Rowling, but if you like my work, it would be nice for you to chip a little something in. If it's a print book then I'd expect the price of the materials at the very least and if it was electronic then a small donation would be enough.

That said, I think piracy has its place. when record companies charge as much as they do for their product, you should definitely be able to try the stuff out before you buy it.


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Offline beardo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2014, 01:09:47 PM »
I'm not asking to be the next J.K.Rowling, but if you like my work, it would be nice for you to chip a little something in.
Absolutely. It would be nice. But it shouldn't be a requirement. What if someone buys the book and then think it sucks?


If it's a print book then I'd expect the price of the materials at the very least and if it was electronic then a small donation would be enough.
This sounds fair. I support the usage of donations.
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Re: Piracy
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2014, 01:35:36 PM »
Why? If you want to enjoy a sofa, you pay someone for the time and materials it took to make your sofa.
A sofa is not art.

I'm currently trying to get a novel published, it took me months of my time to create. If someone gets enjoyment from it, why should that enjoyment be free?
Did you enjoy writing it? If yes, then is that not enough? If no, why did you write it?

I make music because I like making music, and I would never dream of charging people to listen to it. I'm just happy that there are people who like and appreciate it.

Why is art and artists a special case?  Do you think that artists get a feeling that no other person gets when doing their work that is a priviledge?  Do you think is more essential to culture?  Do you think everyone should have access to art freely?

I really can't understand what your narrow perception of artists is, please help.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2014, 02:12:16 PM »
Art is a special case because it's non-physical, unless it's a painting, or a sculpture or such, in which case I understand that it can be very expensive to obtain, because the artist has to spend their money on the material needed for such form of art. But in cases with music, films, novels and such things, the art itself is not a physical object unlike a sculpture. The disc or book you hold in your hand is cheap material, which you probably should pay a small sum for in order to compensate the companies who created the physical medium. But since the arts contained within these are non-physical, and simply being copies of the original work, I see no reason why anyone would HAVE to pay for it.
If I decided to make physical copies of my albums, I would probably charge the 1 euro or whatever the CD cost me. But that would be for the disc only. Not for the music.
And this is why I think piracy is OK, because you don't get the physical medium (the only part which should be paid for) when you download a film, album, or even a digital copy of a novel.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 02:14:59 PM by beardo »
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Offline xasop

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2014, 02:39:06 PM »
ITT: We tell other people their opinions are wrong.

Regardless of what should or should not be the case, the freely available global network that makes copying digital media trivial makes it impractical to charge unreasonable sums of money for art. Artists can feel free to try, but the reality is that it's becoming less and less feasible to do so, especially if they try to impose artificial restrictions (be they legal or technical) on the people buying from them, since they then make their product even more inconvenient compared to obtaining it some other way.

However, it's not wrong for them to do that, only stupid. It would be far more reasonable to charge a modest fee and hand over the work in the least cumbersome way possible. For example, I don't want to jump through hoops to watch video encoded with DRM onto a plastic disc just because I run Linux; I'll grab an MKV from a torrent site instead. If the filmmakers charged me $5 for a direct download of that same unencumbered video file, I'd probably pay it.

This isn't philosophy, it's just practicality. For me, the philosophy comes in when the government takes a side. There is no reason, in the context of modern media, for the government to protect antiquated copyright conventions. That is what I object to.
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Re: Piracy
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2014, 02:55:13 PM »
The content distribution business has to get in to line with modern realities so that copyright contravention is a non-issue. Big media companies are dinosaurs on these issues and try to slowly modify their business models. It's total stagnation. Once distribution companies figure put their model they can pay the artists their share.

Artists in a physical medium should charge whatever the fuck they can get because why not?  Saying they should do it for the love if it and not take money is naive, idealistic, patronizing BS.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2014, 03:35:58 PM »
Art is a special case because it's non-physical, unless it's a painting, or a sculpture or such, in which case I understand that it can be very expensive to obtain, because the artist has to spend their money on the material needed for such form of art. But in cases with music, films, novels and such things, the art itself is not a physical object unlike a sculpture. The disc or book you hold in your hand is cheap material, which you probably should pay a small sum for in order to compensate the companies who created the physical medium. But since the arts contained within these are non-physical, and simply being copies of the original work, I see no reason why anyone would HAVE to pay for it.
If I decided to make physical copies of my albums, I would probably charge the 1 euro or whatever the CD cost me. But that would be for the disc only. Not for the music.
And this is why I think piracy is OK, because you don't get the physical medium (the only part which should be paid for) when you download a film, album, or even a digital copy of a novel.

You might not get hold of he actual physical things but in most art, there is expenditure which has gone into making it beyond the artist's time. In films this is the cameras, the sound equipment, the studio hiring costs, the hiring of he army of men and women who don't consider what they do 'art' but contribute to it, props, sets, special effects, etc etc.

Further, would you object to people making money from your art? If a Hollywood studio downloaded your music to use in their soundtrack without paying you, would you not feel in the least bit miffed?

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2014, 03:55:15 PM »
Art is a special case because it's non-physical, unless it's a painting, or a sculpture or such, in which case I understand that it can be very expensive to obtain, because the artist has to spend their money on the material needed for such form of art. But in cases with music, films, novels and such things, the art itself is not a physical object unlike a sculpture. The disc or book you hold in your hand is cheap material, which you probably should pay a small sum for in order to compensate the companies who created the physical medium. But since the arts contained within these are non-physical, and simply being copies of the original work, I see no reason why anyone would HAVE to pay for it.
If I decided to make physical copies of my albums, I would probably charge the 1 euro or whatever the CD cost me. But that would be for the disc only. Not for the music.
And this is why I think piracy is OK, because you don't get the physical medium (the only part which should be paid for) when you download a film, album, or even a digital copy of a novel.

You might not get hold of he actual physical things but in most art, there is expenditure which has gone into making it beyond the artist's time. In films this is the cameras, the sound equipment, the studio hiring costs, the hiring of he army of men and women who don't consider what they do 'art' but contribute to it, props, sets, special effects, etc etc.

Further, would you object to people making money from your art? If a Hollywood studio downloaded your music to use in their soundtrack without paying you, would you not feel in the least bit miffed?

Exactly.  The CEO of Pandora just received 32M in bonuses while Eminem -only- received $210,000 for his song's streams.  It is out of balance.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2014, 04:22:50 PM »
But Eminem shouldn't moan because he should be doing it for the love of rap so anything he gets he should be grateful for. Since art should be free to take and use, the CEO is perfectly within his rights to take the music provided onlline for free, then make a buttload of money, right?

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Offline beardo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2014, 04:50:17 PM »
You might not get hold of he actual physical things but in most art, there is expenditure which has gone into making it beyond the artist's time. In films this is the cameras, the sound equipment, the studio hiring costs, the hiring of he army of men and women who don't consider what they do 'art' but contribute to it, props, sets, special effects, etc etc.
Indeed, but you don't get these cameras, sound equipment, the men and women, props, sets, etc etc when you buy a movie. You just get a piece of plastic with a digital movie stored on it.

Further, would you object to people making money from your art? If a Hollywood studio downloaded your music to use in their soundtrack without paying you, would you not feel in the least bit miffed?
I would object to this. Not because I myself wouldn't get any of the money, but because these people make money by using music that isn't supposed to be used for profit. My music is free, and no one should have to pay to listen to it. Not even in a movie. I wouldn't press charges or sue them, that would take too much effort. And besides, it would bring my music to a wider audience, so that would be good at least.
I would have no problem with it if it was a non-profit film.


Also, if Eminem self-released his music online with a "pay what you want" model, he would probably get a shit-ton more money than $210,000.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 04:52:59 PM by beardo »
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2014, 08:00:50 AM »
Quote
Indeed, but you don't get these cameras, sound equipment, the men and women, props, sets, etc etc when you buy a movie. You just get a piece of plastic with a digital movie stored on it.


Now you're being childish. No, you don't get the paraphenalia but you do get the product of the cameras etc.

It's interesting to note that Radiohead did this with 'In Rainbows.' I wonder why they went back to a traditional model for their next album?

Basically, if you want to give your music away, that's fine. You don't get to decide unilaterally that all artists must have your model.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 08:08:58 AM by Ghost Spaghetti »

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Offline beardo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2014, 09:05:55 AM »
Maybe they were under contract or some bullshit

I obviously don't get to decide, and I'm not trying to. I'm just having an opinion.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 09:07:47 AM by beardo »
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2014, 09:27:54 AM »
Maybe they were under contract or some bullshit

I obviously don't get to decide, and I'm not trying to. I'm just having an opinion.

No, because if you pirate then you are deciding. You have decided that you don't like their business model and that you shouldn't have to pay for this piece of art. That isn't for you to decide.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Piracy
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2014, 09:45:05 AM »
I always buy an album I like if I find one in a record store. And I rarely pirate games anymore either, because steam sales.
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