[Yaakov ben Avraham]

'the Jew'... I'm not sure how to take that, Alex... *wondering whether I should laugh or be offended*

[Ghost of V]

How is "I think he exists ergo he does" an argument?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Phrased incorrectly like that, it isn't an argument. Here is the proper phrasing. Premise 1: I can conceive of a Being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived. Premise 2: Existence is greater than non-existence. Conclusion: God exists. & no, the argument does NOT hold for large tvs, or stereos, or what have you. Such things are not the greatest Thing. Only God is that.

[Ghost of V]

Phrased incorrectly like that, it isn't an argument. Here is the proper phrasing. Premise 1: I can conceive of a Being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived. Premise 2: Existence is greater than non-existence. Conclusion: God exists. & no, the argument does NOT hold for large tvs, or stereos, or what have you. Such things are not the greatest Thing. Only God is that.

Could you explain this to me like I'm five? Because I really don't see an argument here. I see a bunch of false statements that amount to: "I think he exists therefore he does".

Does this same argument apply to other supernatural beings? I can conceive Cthulhu, does that mean he's a real being sleeping under the ocean?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Not being certain what Cthulu is, aside from a literary reference, I'll ignore this. Re: the Ontological Argument, you're making it harder than it is. Remember that God alone is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, & omniscient. Cthulu are not. A Being w/ the 3 Omnis is necessary to the creation &  maintenance of a stable universe.

[Ghost of V]

A Being w/ the 3 Omnis is necessary to the creation &  maintenance of a stable universe.

Why? Please explain further.

[fappenhosen]

There is nothing uniquely great about NFL players or television sets,

Yes there is. Imagine a television set. Now imagine the greatest television set. Imagine a footballer, now imagine the greatest footballer. Its easy.

Pleading that TVs cannot be great, or footballers cannot be great, yet a sky fairy can be, is pleading a special case. You won't get anywhere with that.

Where you run aground is that you are unable to describe what it is that makes a god great, other than describing it as "great+1".

And we've drifted far far away from the Jewish god, or the Christian god, or the FSM (sauce be upon Him).

You should concentrate on proving that your god, as described in your old book exists, not that there might be some logic somewhere that means there might be something like a god as described in the most general terms.

If you refuse to engage in anything but the Jewish god, then we can't allow you to depart from the Jewish god. Fair's fair now.

[Shmeggley]

Phrased incorrectly like that, it isn't an argument. Here is the proper phrasing. Premise 1: I can conceive of a Being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived. Premise 2: Existence is greater than non-existence. Conclusion: God exists. & no, the argument does NOT hold for large tvs, or stereos, or what have you. Such things are not the greatest Thing. Only God is that.

First, I don't see why this argument applies only to gods and not other things. Since existing in my living room is greater than existing in anyone else's living room, the greatest possible TV set should be in my living room. I mean, it's OK, but...

Second, the greatest possible God I can conceive of also makes his existence plain to everyone and appears regularly on the news in person. He also doesn't require gratuitous suffering. So why doesn't that god exist?

Third, why would human conception of Him have anything to do with his actual existence in the first place? Since presumably He created us and everything, there was a time when there was there was no one around to conceive of him. Therefore the concept of the greatest God and the actual existence of such a God can't be related.

[Rama Set]

Phrased incorrectly like that, it isn't an argument. Here is the proper phrasing. Premise 1: I can conceive of a Being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived. Premise 2: Existence is greater than non-existence. Conclusion: God exists. & no, the argument does NOT hold for large tvs, or stereos, or what have you. Such things are not the greatest Thing. Only God is that.

Premise 1. is terrible since you it places a self-imposed limit of human comprehension.  Well, it is conceivable that another species could conceive of something we cant, who might be dwarfed by another species and so on, and so you get in to an infinite progression.

[Ghost of V]

Vauxhall is dismissing an argument based on an irrelevant perceived character trait. Even if the jew were trolling (although I'm not sure why anybody would think so), that would be irrelevant to the substance of his argument.

Trolling is not a character trait, it's an action that can be performed by many.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

There is nothing intrinsic to a television that makes it great. Rather the reverse, since it can break or malfunction. The same would apply to a football player, subject to injury as he is. God is the most perfect being.

[beardo]

The only reason people who belive in God is not considered mentally insane is because there are so many who believe in God.

[fappenhosen]

There is nothing intrinsic to a television that makes it great. Rather the reverse, since it can break or malfunction.

The greatest television doesn't break or malfunction.

The same would apply to a football player, subject to injury as he is.

The greatest footballer is not subject to injury.

[Shmeggley]

There is nothing intrinsic to a television that makes it great. Rather the reverse, since it can break or malfunction. The same would apply to a football player, subject to injury as he is. God is the most perfect being.

There's nothing intrinsic to a god that makes it great either. I have read about many imperfect and seriously terrible gods. Some of which are explicitly mentioned in the bible. Which brings to mind another question - if the bible is from the god Yahweh, how do we know it's not just propaganda for Yahweh?

[fappenhosen]

http://www.alternet.org/12-craziest-most-awful-things-god-did-old-testament

lol

(Keeping it OT style as requested by Yaakov)

[Ghost of V]

God is the most perfect being.

God is the most perfect omnibenevolent being who: floods humanity (Genesis 7:21-23), forces people to commit murder to "test their faith"  (Genesis 22:5 and 22:8 ), turns people into salt pillars and burns down people's homes (Genesis 19), slaughters every Egyptian firstborn (Exodus 12:29), sends a plague to kill people after they complained to God that He was killing too many people (Numbers 16:41-49), killed 42 helpless children by sending bears to dismember them (Kings 2:23-24), kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow (Genesis 38:9-10), and endowed several groups of worshipers with His holy power to commit mass genocide (Joshua 6:20-21, Deuteronomy 2:32-35, Deuteronomy 3:3-7, Numbers 31:7-18, 1 Samuel 15:1-9).

Should I go on? 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Well, proving that 1 God w/ the 3 omnis exists is necessary 1st. After that, I would have to prove that God made the Jews his Chosen People. In order to do this, I would have to prove the Hebrew Bible to you. Knowing that I could find you the original scrolls written by Moses & you'd still refuse to believe just makes me not choose to bother. If you, in good conscience & curiosity, want to know about Judaism, I'll gladly help you. But I'm not getting into pointless disputes that profane the G-d of Israel. You want knowledge? I'll help. But I expect you to act nicely.

[Rama Set]

http://www.alternet.org/12-craziest-most-awful-things-god-did-old-testament

lol

(Keeping it OT style as requested by Yaakov)

This was amazing.  Especially the rendition of Job's plight.

[fappenhosen]

Well, proving that 1 God w/ the 3 omnis exists is necessary 1st.

There are 4 omnis:
    Omnipresence
    Omniscience
    Omnipotence
    Omnibenevolence

Which one is your god missing?!?! 

This thread is Atheism vs. Religion. The title indicates a combative style. But friendly enough I hope. I don't think you're a dick for being wrong. I do think you're wrong. I do think the things you align yourself with are dickish.

Anyway, feel free to do all the things you listed. If you do Religion will surely vanquish Atheism and I will buy an apartment in the Golan Heights.

[Shmeggley]

http://www.alternet.org/12-craziest-most-awful-things-god-did-old-testament

lol

(Keeping it OT style as requested by Yaakov)

This was amazing.  Especially the rendition of Job's plight.

Exodus 4:24-26 (AKA "Holy shit God, WTF is wrong with you, man?!)

24 At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it. “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said. 26 So the Lord let him alone.

Can this be, in any way, shape or form, how the "greatest possible being" behaves? I'm serious here. And seriously disgusted.