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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #300 on: July 21, 2021, 05:36:20 PM »
Anyway, back on topic, France is upping the ante.

Macron is done politely pleading with the French to get vaccinated.

He is now playing hardball and came with the shock announcement that life for the unvaccinated will become miserable.

"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

The prospect of not being able to do anything fun during the summer and beyond made people jump into action.

In the first 24 hours after the speech, more than a million people booked vaccination appointments – 20,000 per minute. A record since the start of the campaign.

Vive la France!

Please familiarize yourself with the Nuremberg Code.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:05:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #302 on: July 21, 2021, 06:10:50 PM »
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:39:49 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #303 on: July 21, 2021, 11:10:31 PM »
Please familiarize yourself with the Nuremberg Code.



That's not what the New England Journal of Medicine think it's for.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199711133372006
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #304 on: July 21, 2021, 11:28:26 PM »
That's not what the New England Journal of Medicine think it's for.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199711133372006

The article says that it applies to ulterior form of constraint and coercion, not just direct forced injection:

Quote
1.The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.

This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision

It then goes on to give an example with the malaria treatment from Andrew Ivy, co-author of the code:

Quote
Ivy explained that these common-sense principles mirrored the understanding shared by everyone in practice in the medical community.12 The first principle was that a physician would never do anything to a patient or subject before obtaining his or her consent. Ivy also asserted that, unlike Leibbrand, he did not consider prisoners to be in an inherently coercive situation and thus unable to give consent, because in democratic countries where the rights of individuals are respected, prisoners can always say yes or no without fear of being punished.12 He testified:

"The American malaria experiments with 800 or more prisoners were absolutely justified, scientifically, legally and ethically even if they bring with them danger to human life. To treat malaria was an important scientific problem, and so long as the subjects volunteer and are explained the hazards of the experiments, there is no ethical reason against it. . . . If prisoners condemned to death are volunteers, then it was ethical to do just that."

During cross-examination, Ivy acknowledged that there were no written principles of research in the United States or elsewhere before December 1946 and that the principles adopted by the American Medical Association were expressly formulated for the Doctors' Trial.12 Ivy also recognized that the right of the research subject to withdraw from an experiment may not always exist, as in the malaria experiments in which the subjects had already been infected, or in dangerous experiments in which the subjects could be severely injured or fatally harmed. Ivy agreed with Leibbrand that researchers must refuse to conduct experiments on human beings when ordered by the state in order “to save lives,” because in such cases subjects would not be volunteers. He declared that “[t]here is no justification in killing five people in order to save the lives of five hundred” and that “no state or politician under the sun could force [him] to perform a medical experiment which [he] thought was morally unjustified.”12 Ivy also stressed that the state may not assume the moral responsibility of physicians to their patients or research subjects, arguing that “[E]very physician should be acquainted with the Hippocratic Oath [which] represents the Golden Rule of the medical profession in the United States, and, to [his] knowledge, throughout the world.”12

See the last bolded piece. It doesn't matter if the treatment saves many lives. It's still unethical to coerce people into taking it.

The article also emphasizes the right to withdraw:

Quote
Medical Ethics and Human Rights

The judges at Nuremberg, although they realized the importance of Hippocratic ethics and the maxim primum non nocere, recognized that more was necessary to protect human research subjects. Accordingly, the judges articulated a sophisticated set of 10 research principles centered not on the physician but on the research subject. These principles, which we know as the Nuremberg Code, included a new, comprehensive, and absolute requirement of informed consent (principle 1), and a new right of the subject to withdraw from participation in an experiment (principle 9). The judges adopted much of the language proposed by Alexander and Ivy but were more emphatic about the necessity and attributes of the subject's consent and explicitly added the subject's right to withdraw.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:45:07 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #305 on: July 22, 2021, 10:27:27 AM »
The repeated word/phrase in the code is experiment/experimentation.

Applying a vaccine to prevent the spread of a pandemic is not experimentation. It's a treatment.

Wikipedia;

"The Nuremberg Code (German: Nürnberger Kodex) is a set of research ethics principles for human experimentation created by the USA v Brandt court as one result of the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War. In a review written on the 50th anniversary of the Brandt verdict, Katz writes that "a careful reading of the judgment suggests that" the authors wrote the Kodex "for the practice of human experimentation whenever it is being conducted.""
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 10:29:22 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #306 on: July 22, 2021, 10:56:15 AM »

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Did you deliver groceries then? I did stay home and have groceries delivered to me often. Maybe it was you delivering them, which is nice.

Has anyone said how covid actually gets us away from capitalism or did I miss that part? Because I remember corporations getting a lot of handouts during the lockdown. And-

"U.S. billionaires have gotten about $1.2 trillion richer during the pandemic."
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," (I thought for the libtards, the concept of everyone being worthwhile, therefore = essential," was a hill worthy to be won in the SJW fight) received theirs much the same.

All musings uttered by such people are so philosophically and intellectually disingenuous it beggars belief.

You, quite obviously, have no clue as to what constitutes free market capitalism (or worse yet, purposefully) choosing to describe any current world economic system in use (including that of the US), as capitalism.

It isn't.

I mean... Its regulated capitalism, but still based on the accumulation of profit.  Not like... Communism or barter system.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #307 on: July 22, 2021, 04:31:55 PM »
The repeated word/phrase in the code is experiment/experimentation.

Applying a vaccine to prevent the spread of a pandemic is not experimentation. It's a treatment.

Wikipedia;

"The Nuremberg Code (German: Nürnberger Kodex) is a set of research ethics principles for human experimentation created by the USA v Brandt court as one result of the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War. In a review written on the 50th anniversary of the Brandt verdict, Katz writes that "a careful reading of the judgment suggests that" the authors wrote the Kodex "for the practice of human experimentation whenever it is being conducted.""

The vaccines haven't been tested long term. They are new, and involve never before deployed genetic programming which permanently reprograms our bodies to produce a substance it does not normally produce. How in the world is that not experimental?

It usually takes a long period of time to test drugs and vaccines:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK24645/

Drug Animal Testing:

"This stage of safety testing usually takes about 4 years. Drug companies test for mutagenicity (ability to cause genetic changes) and carcinogenicity (ability to cause cancer). The drugs are also tested to confirm that they do not cause infertility (inability to have children) or birth defects. This stage of safety testing takes many years, because it may take a long period of time for animals to develop cancer or infertility as a result of a toxic drug."

It takes years for a reason.

The whole process of human drug testing typically takes a long time:

"Clinical testing is complex and time-consuming, averaging 14 years to complete Phase I through III testing to gain FDA approval."

Typical vaccine development:

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

So it takes 10 to 15 years normally. Why is that? Because they don't want to give people things which might cause adverse effects down the line.

Obviously if Nazi Germany was claiming that its experiments during WWII were "approved" and "fine", and "in our estimation it's safe" and "we tested it on some mice for a short time," that would still violate the Nuremberg Code when they forced it on people. The government's opinion is irrelevant. They are still experiments, no matter what the government claims.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 07:10:33 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #308 on: July 22, 2021, 07:24:05 PM »
The mRNA vaccine platform has been tested on humans since at least 2008 and shown to be safe. The question is whether the spike protein replication is safe; this is not an entirely settled question.

Regardless, the decision was made to allow emergency use. I find citing international agreements to be a bit disingenuous, since the US flagrantly gives no fucks about them in a number of areas, so clearly an adherence to this particular one is merely politically motivated.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #309 on: July 22, 2021, 07:31:06 PM »
Regardless, the decision was made to allow emergency use. I find citing international agreements to be a bit disingenuous, since the US flagrantly gives no fucks about them in a number of areas, so clearly an adherence to this particular one is merely politically motivated.
The Nuremberg Code isn't even an international agreement. It's a set of guidelines some people wrote down 70 years ago, and which has inspired various treaties and laws, but by itself it has no power, legal or otherwise, anywhere in the world.

I was trying to ignore this obviously terrible troll, but apparently other people have decided to engage, so I've said my piece now.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #310 on: July 22, 2021, 08:09:02 PM »
The vaccines haven't been tested long term.

For blatantly obvious reasons. One of which was the loss of 600k American lives. Many others worldwide.

They are new, and involve never before deployed genetic programming which permanently reprograms our bodies to produce a substance it does not normally produce. How in the world is that not experimental?

It is not for the purpose of an experiment. It is to save lives.

It usually takes a long period of time to test drugs and vaccines: .... 10 to 15 years normally. Why is that? Because they don't want to give people things which might cause adverse effects down the line.

600k deaths in less than a year should make it clear to you that the standard 10 to 15 years were not available.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #311 on: July 23, 2021, 06:22:10 AM »
The Hypocratic Oath isn't legally binding either. People value it for reasons other than legality.

Quote from: Tumeni
It is not for the purpose of an experiment. It is to save lives.

So the Nazis just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

Quote from: Tumeni
600k deaths in less than a year should make it clear to you that the standard 10 to 15 years were not available.

China didn't have a problem with extinguishing Covid without forcefully or coersively injecting experiments into people. Their pandemic only lasted about a month and a half or so. What's the problem with your country?

« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 10:19:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #312 on: July 23, 2021, 10:24:32 AM »
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #313 on: July 23, 2021, 10:52:26 AM »
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.
Yes, it's interesting that Tom now thinks China are the bastions of truth.
How'd ya like them cherries?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #314 on: July 23, 2021, 12:38:07 PM »
So the Nazi's just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

False equivalence.

Germany had invaded Poland first, and then other countries within Europe. There was a war on, with France, UK, and latterly the USA, all joining as allies to fight back the Germans, defend their own countries, and halt what the Germans were doing to the Jews and others.

None of that applies here and now.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #315 on: July 23, 2021, 08:01:05 PM »
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.

Pretty sure forced quarantine is more morally justifiable than forced experimental injection.
 
What do you think happens to you when you are on board a ship and your shipmates are found to be communicating a contagious disease? Quarantine.

How is it that China knew what to do, but other countries led many thousands to their deaths?

So the Nazi's just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

False equivalence.

Germany had invaded Poland first, and then other countries within Europe. There was a war on, with France, UK, and latterly the USA, all joining as allies to fight back the Germans, defend their own countries, and halt what the Germans were doing to the Jews and others.

None of that applies here and now.

Uh, what? The Nuremberg Code was created because of Germany, but wasn't directed only at Germany. Not sure why you think only the Nazis can do unethical things.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 09:32:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline scomato

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #316 on: July 23, 2021, 11:05:06 PM »
If you've ever eaten fast food, it's hypocritical to be anti-vax, since that burger patty contains just as much animal vaccine, growth hormone, and antibiotic substances than you could ever fit in half a milliliter of vaccine.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #317 on: July 24, 2021, 12:20:25 AM »
The correct risk control behavior is to:

1. Not take the vaccine, wear a mask when necessary and avoid social gatherings
2. Encourage other people to take it (as long as they aren't family or friends)

Then, you successfully take full advantage of having others shoulder the burden of possible vaccine side effects while acquiring herd immunity.

Please get vaccinated, by the way.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 12:22:10 AM by Rushy »

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #318 on: July 24, 2021, 01:19:26 AM »
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.

Pretty sure forced quarantine is more morally justifiable than forced experimental injection.

Are people being held down and injected?
 
Quote
What do you think happens to you when you are on board a ship and your shipmates are found to be communicating a contagious disease? Quarantine.

Lol.

Quote
How is it that China knew what to do, but other countries led many thousands to their deaths?

Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
« Reply #319 on: July 24, 2021, 04:25:27 AM »
Are people being held down and injected?

Pretty much. They are being told that they can't go to the hospital or to shopping centers if they don't get the injection:

Quote
"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

Quote from: Rama Set
Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.

Just a few posts ago you were arguing in favor of breaking the Nuremberg Code to force or coerce people into taking the experimental vaccines. Now you are arguing that being put into quarantine infringes on rights.  ::)