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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2015, 03:32:26 PM »
Are there any others opposed?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2015, 10:26:44 PM »
I'm not opposed, but I do think point 4. of your proposal needs some thought. I'm not convinced that people will feel any more engaged than they are right now. We obviously have a few very involved individuals here, but I don't think it's enough to warrant this whole structure of proposals and voting.

Essentially, I do not see the merit of having a ZC at all if they're not expected to do work.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2015, 12:25:56 AM »
All members should be expected and encouraged to contribute in some way, not only 5 elected ones. By designing the membership around community collaboration, it fosters camaraderie.

Do you really want to join a Flat Earth Society and just receive a thank you and a certificate, hearing nothing more, or do you want to join a Flat Earth Society which involves you in community projects and activities which furthers the theory and movement?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2015, 11:12:22 AM »
Do you really want to be part of a Zetetic Council, receive two blue squares, hearing nothing more, or do you want to be part of a Zetetic Council which actually gets something done?

Your idea is ok in theory, but we've already observed the levels of involvement throughout our userbase. Ignoring that in our considerations is a recipe for failure.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2015, 02:53:14 PM »
Why should only 5 members of hundreds of members be expected to contribute to the movement?

This is supposed to be a society, an "organization or club formed for a particular purpose or activity" (Google). The idea that only a small group of people should be responsible for pushing the movement forward while the rest do nothing is antithetical to the concept.

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Offline jroa

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Re: Membership
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2015, 03:41:18 PM »
I agree with Tom.  You (PP) are making it out that he and the rest do nothing, when we are all sitting around doing nothing and Tom is at least trying to get us to discuss something.  Why do you hate yourself so much? 

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2015, 07:58:07 PM »
You (PP) are making it out that he and the rest do nothing, when we are all sitting around doing nothing and Tom is at least trying to get us to discuss something.
I take an issue with you suggesting that I (together with a number of other involved members who would fall under "we all") do nothing. If you'd like to join us in maintaining the site's codebase, social media, the Wiki, the Library, the store, or, you know, anything at all, then please get in touch and get involved. Until then, I'd like to ask that you keep your insults to yourself and let those who actually put something into this effort have a conversation about how to best approach this.

I take your response as a sign that you don't quite understand what's going on around here, and so I'm going to disregard your further remarks on the matter.

Why should only 5 members of hundreds of members be expected to contribute to the movement?
I never said they should - you're trying to respond to a proposal that no one actually brought up.

I said that you shouldn't have an explicit clause of "we're not supposed to do work". To make your words relevant: Why should 5 members of hundreds be expected to not contribute?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 08:04:17 PM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2015, 10:12:13 PM »
Where did I suggest that council members would not contribute? I simply said that they would not be the expected workhorses of any project the society decides to start.

Right now there is an air of assumption that the society is not going anywhere because the Zetetic Council is not out there making documentaries, engaging the world in public debates, and whatever. As if I have the resources to do all of that on my own. Why should the future of the society be put solely on me?

For the society to move forward we need interest and participation of a large group of people, and tying membership into active participation with society activities is the way to do it.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2015, 09:47:41 AM »
Where did I suggest that council members would not contribute? I simply said that they would not be the expected workhorses of any project the society decides to start.
Okay, I guess that's fair enough. I'm still not clear why that would need to be said explicitly. Is there anyone that's "expected" to be the workhorses?

Right now there is an air of assumption that the society is not going anywhere because the Zetetic Council is not out there making documentaries, engaging the world in public debates, and whatever.
I don't think that's quite true. No one expects you to engage in public debates or making documentaries, especially not all by yourself. Reaching out to the media, however, was something we explicitly agreed would be the ZC's job, at least as far as initiating the contact goes. Even the society relaunch press release (a 1-page document, 2 pages at best) has never been completed, despite numerous approaches undertaken. The same goes for the Constitution. Or the terms of how ZC elections would work in the future. Or at least re-electing the 3 ZCs that either resigned or have gone completely inactive. The problem isn't that the ZC isn't making documentaries. The problem is that it does hardly anything at all.

Why should the future of the society be put solely on me?
It shouldn't, it isn't, and you know it. Different people within the Society have assumed different roles. Some of them do their jobs, others don't. I don't understand why the ZC should be allowed to accept a job and then add a clause that says they don't actually have to do it.

For the society to move forward we need interest and participation of a large group of people, and tying membership into active participation with society activities is the way to do it.
I don't see how or why. You keep saying that this is the case, but you're not backing it up in any way.

The people who want to get involved are already getting involved. Thork was annoyed with our inactive Twitter, so he messages us and now he's in charge of it. Blanko wanted a better design for our homepage, so he made it and now it's there. You wanted an annotated ENaG and you've successfully started it, together with others.

What benefits does formal membership bring us in this area?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 09:50:36 AM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2015, 07:28:55 PM »
The problem with the ZC was that it was difficult to get all 5 members available to discuss or vote on issues and discussions stagnated. My solution solves that issue. See Tsunami's post on the subject:

I officially endorse Tom's idea.

The big problem with the ZC, in my experience with it, is that when ideas are brought up all 5 members are never available to discuss it or vote on it, and discussions consistently stagnate. Then the people who were active get tired of yelling into a void and disappear for months and the cycle continues.

If Tom's plan is implemented (presumably after reunification), I see several things happening. First, the ZC process becomes a lot more democratic. If you care enough to be reading this, you would probably be able to vote under Tom's idea. I like that. The regulars here tend to have good ideas. With careful moderation of the ZC board (I would propose, albeit without thinking about the idea too hard, that the ZC members be able to moderate the board), it could be a great place for the society and Flat Earth Theory to prosper. It would fix the stagnation problem, too, because discussion of the ideas would not be limited to ZC members.

The current ZC is an ineffective organization. I think Tom's proposal would fix the main reasons that's the case.

Quote from: SexWarrior
The people who want to get involved are already getting involved. Thork was annoyed with our inactive Twitter, so he messages us and now he's in charge of it. Blanko wanted a better design for our homepage, so he made it and now it's there. You wanted an annotated ENaG and you've successfully started it, together with others.

What benefits does formal membership bring us in this area?

If the entire community was involved in voting and discussion, we might have a better site. I was not involved in the homepage. I have no idea what you or Blanko are doing with the site. Maybe if the community was involved, and everything was up for discussion, you would get offers to create graphics, articles, videos, SEO promotion, and so on.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2015, 09:47:15 PM »
Yes, but that's entirely unrealistic. Writing a document that says "people will be involved from now on" won't actually do anything.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2015, 10:04:14 PM »
People will join the Flat Earth Society to get involved in the Flat Earth activities and the movement. That is what membership will be advertised as, and the main purpose of signing up. That is, you know, what a normal club or society does with its members.

Your position seems to be that membership should be designed solely a novelty, as it is on the .org website, a mechanism for people to sign up, get a certificate and brag that they are part of the Flat Earth Society.

If they want to sign up as a novelty under my plan, fine, but under this vision the purpose of membership would not be merely to have your name on a roster somewhere, and we should not be promoting that type of pathetic society.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2015, 11:14:00 PM »
No, my position has already been stated. You don't need to think and wonder what, oh what, it might be.

I'm not opposed, but I do think point 4. of your proposal needs some thought.

Stating over and over that you're going to advertise membership as something or another will not change the reality of our userbase. If you're not interested in solving that problem, or even discussing it, just say so. Restating the same flawed idea over and over won't suddenly make the flaw go away.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2015, 11:26:41 PM »
I just noticed that I missed this point:

I have no idea what you or Blanko are doing with the site. Maybe if the community was involved, and everything was up for discussion, you would get offers to create graphics, articles, videos, SEO promotion, and so on.
I'm sorry, boo, but you ignoring S&C threads is a problem with you, not others. The community was involved, but you chose to drop a single off-topic post instead of contributing. Now you're acting like that's somehow our fault for carrying on the work despite you not giving a damn.

Oh, and guess what, we did get offers to create graphics and articles. That's why we have them now. Again, no thanks to a magical membership system.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 11:30:26 PM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2015, 12:08:35 AM »
A forum for Suggestions and Concerns merely asks the user to submit a suggestion or concern. This is a wholly different matter than asking the user to contribute and engage in Flat Earth activities and the movement. We are not doing that at all. The community giving you a suggestion on a forum is hardly community participation.

A forum for "Suggestions and Concerns" sends me the message that I should go in and make a post "how about making some videos??" for whoever maintains the website to work on. A society membership which asks members to begin projects and decide on a direction for the movement on an activities forum is a fundamentally different request of the user.

The problem is not lack of effort by a community. The problem is a lack of organization and communication.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2015, 01:19:08 PM »
You know what? This isn't worth my time. You're not answering my questions, and you're clearly not interested in actually getting anywhere here.

Go ahead and roll out your Zetetic Council 3.0. Show us how it's done. The others will hopefully focus on something productive in the meantime.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 01:32:48 PM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2015, 12:59:52 AM »
Your question was answered. People are not contributing because there is no originizational structure for them to do so. We do not ask any involvement at all from our users. There are two elements which will make this a success:

1. Membership will be advertised as a way to become involved with society projects and society affairs. The wording on the main site should invoke the understanding that they are signing up to get involved.

2. You can't expect people to take control of the society when it is controlled by an oligarchy. If the society is democratically controlled there are no limits to the success of the society. It simply doesn't matter if I think that I would rather write a book than send a press release announcing that we are a "competing" Flat Earth Society. The society isn't hung up on me.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 01:11:16 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Membership
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2015, 02:37:20 AM »
If you say so. I'll believe it when I see it.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Membership
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2015, 11:00:13 PM »
Are there any other dissenters?

Re: Membership
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2017, 12:07:34 AM »
If there are any moderators who could assist in this matter please email me at vstapleton82@yahoo.com.  we've been having quite a go on Facebook as of late. I recently started the official flat-earth Indiana page as suggested by Darryel Marble he and a friend around the Washington Flat Earth page.  anyhow I'm going to risk it and go ahead and send this $12 money order to the UK to the PO Box I found in a press release from 2009. I've been trying to get in contact with a guy for about a year now, the name is Daniel hopefully He can get me a certificate and card. I if you guys are now offering this service please let me know and is anybody here with the Zetetic Council?