[MCToon]

Not having a map is troublesome.  For a flat earth a map is easier than for a globe as there is no projection required.  To help creating a map I have been thinking about what is required.

There are a couple sample FE maps, the AE map and variants has been shown to be incorrect for several reasons, which is not the point of this thread.  A bi-polar map has been proposed, the caveat of the sample map has been that it's not meant top be accurate, just an example showing a north pole and a south pole and antarctica as a continent.  The edges of the world are left off, ice wall or infinite plane are considered, but, again, what's not on the map is not the point of this thread.

This thread is to collect some information on what is required by a map regardless of the layout.  I have several basic real world observations that can be agreed upon by everyone.

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
Requires: The equator must be straight, not curved. 

2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
Requires: The tropic of cancer must be straight, not curved. 

3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
Requires: The tropic of capricorn must be straight, not curved. 

4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
Requires: To be discussed.

5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Requires: To be discussed.

[stack]

Timely. I was writing this up a few days ago, but never got around to posting it:

"How about a working map of the Flat Earth?

FE Society resources are slim, so why not take a leap and try and figure out how a planar earth may actually look and work. I’d like to try and do that.

Problem from the outset:

Models - Which one to choose? You’ve got the mono-pole (I call ‘classic’), the bi-polar (unfortunate name, but so be it), I’ve read about the ‘dual earth’ (I call the ‘Oreo’, no disrespect, but it’s kind of cookie shaped; top, bottom, something in the middle) and the infinite plane. The latter could actually be any of the former, just with ‘more’, infinitely more, as it were. And I’m sure there are others, these are just the ones I’ve read about.

Disclaimer: I’m not trying to start a debate. I will elsewhere, but not for this effort.

So, which model to embark on is the question."

My intent was the same as yours; try to make an FE map. But, as evidenced above, I got hung up on which model. I think it's important to pick one and then start applying your (and others) observations/requirements to it.

[robinofloxley]

The starting point for a map is a model and then a coordinate system, so if you pick a model and can draw lines of latitude and longitude then the rest follows from that.

A while back I was teaching myself the basics of 2D and 3D graphics in the C# programming language for fun and wondered if I could generate my own maps. I came across http://www.geonames.org/ which has a massive database of freely downloadable "features". A feature could be anything, a building, a road, river, gas/oil platform, you name it. Each feature has an associated country code and latitude/longitude location info.

To cut a long story short, I basically wrote a program to read the "all counties" features file (11 million odd features) and plot each feature as a dot on a map with a different colour for each country. What you end up with is a nicely coloured world map based on the model of your choice. I made a spherical 3D globe plus north and south pole centric mono-pole 2D maps and they looked pretty good.

I discovered a few interesting things along the way. Antarctica you can barely make out because so little of it has any features. Parts of the US and Australia are similarly sparse. The interior of Brazil is fascinating because presumably everyone lives on or near the banks of the Amazon or its major tributaries, so pretty much all you see is the spidery outline of the rivers.

For larks, I also added point of view and zoom features to my 3D globe and had a go at recreating the original "Blue Marble" Apollo 17 photo - basically set my point of view 18k miles away and zoomed in - pretty damned perfect match.

Anyway, I digress, the point is forget about a map, with a bit of programming know-how, that'll draw itself. Come up with model and a diagram with latitude/longitude on it that works and the countries can draw themselves.

[MCToon]

Stack, Robinofloxley,
Good points on the model.  However, I'm concerned in the thread about the required elements.

If possible, I would like to see discussion on the 5 observations I mentioned.  I chose these observations because they are easy to understand, they are possible to confirm if someone has doubts, and, lacking doubts, the data is easily available online via timeanddate.com or other sources.  Of greatest importance, is that the observations should be acceptable by people from all camps.

I do not expect the observations will have much or any disagreement.  It would be good to have several people verify my observations.

Observations 4 and 5 are somewhat redundant.  They are slightly different in that #5 is a specific instance of #4.  I left them separate in case the generalized #4 has detractors.

Here are the observations again:

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Does anyone see any problems with these?  Does anyone have any similarly easy to understand and observe things to add that people from all camps will likely accept?

[iamcpc]

There are a couple sample FE maps, the AE map and variants has been shown to be incorrect for several reasons, which is not the point of this thread.  A bi-polar map has been proposed, the caveat of the sample map has been that it's not meant top be accurate, just an example showing a north pole and a south pole and antarctica as a continent.  The edges of the world are left off, ice wall or infinite plane are considered, but, again, what's not on the map is not the point of this thread.

This thread is to collect some information on what is required by a map regardless of the layout.  I have several basic real world observations that can be agreed upon by everyone.

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
Requires: The equator must be straight, not curved. 

2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
Requires: The tropic of cancer must be straight, not curved. 

3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
Requires: The tropic of capricorn must be straight, not curved. 

4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
Requires: To be discussed.

5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Requires: To be discussed.

To me a map is more about distance and direction than equinox position. I have never before seen or used any map that had anything to do with observed equinox position.

Before getting that advanced why don't you just start with basic distances and directions.

Directions:
Is the United states north/south/east/west from Brazil?

Distance
The united states is X miles from Brazil.

These distances and directions should match the distances and directions which have been corroborated by hundreds of thousands of people via travel times, travel distances, navigation, shipping, cartography, surveying etc.


We have determined through hundreds of thousands of measurements and observations in regards to cartography, navigation, shipping times, travel times, etc.  that the distance between Santiago and Sydney is about 7,000 miles and The distance between LA and Sydney is about 7,500 miles.



As an example each one of these maps has a huge problem where the distances don't match observed and measured distances:
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Rowbotham_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Charles_K._Johnson_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Gleason%27s_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Voliva_map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Orlando_Ferguson_Map.jpg

None of these maps can possibly be correct because they all show the distance between LA and Sydney is one half of the distance between Santiago and Sydney which is blatantly incorrect.

[stack]

None of these maps can possibly be correct because they all show the distance between LA and Sydney is one half of the distance between Santiago and Sydney which is blatantly incorrect.

Herein lies the rub as to why an FE map is so difficult. If one attempts to get distances correct, it breaks the sun. If one tries to get the sun right, it breaks distances.  I've been looking at other efforts and no one has been able to crack the code of this paradox, at least that I have found. Not to say it can't be done, but thus far I haven't been able to find a single instance where an FE map has even come close to matching observable reality. 

But you have to start somewhere so I'll go with 'yes' to MCToon's requirements/constraints.

[MCToon]

There are a couple sample FE maps, the AE map and variants has been shown to be incorrect for several reasons, which is not the point of this thread.  A bi-polar map has been proposed, the caveat of the sample map has been that it's not meant top be accurate, just an example showing a north pole and a south pole and antarctica as a continent.  The edges of the world are left off, ice wall or infinite plane are considered, but, again, what's not on the map is not the point of this thread.

This thread is to collect some information on what is required by a map regardless of the layout.  I have several basic real world observations that can be agreed upon by everyone.

1. Observation is that on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
Requires: The equator must be straight, not curved. 

2. Observation is that on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
Requires: The tropic of cancer must be straight, not curved. 

3. Observation is that on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
Requires: The tropic of capricorn must be straight, not curved. 

4. Observation is that on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
Requires: To be discussed.

5. Observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
Requires: To be discussed.

To me a map is more about distance and direction than equinox position. I have never before seen or used any map that had anything to do with observed equinox position.

Before getting that advanced why don't you just start with basic distances and directions.

Directions:
Is the United states north/south/east/west from Brazil?

Distance
The united states is X miles from Brazil.

These distances and directions should match the distances and directions which have been corroborated by hundreds of thousands of people via travel times, travel distances, navigation, shipping, cartography, surveying etc.


We have determined through hundreds of thousands of measurements and observations in regards to cartography, navigation, shipping times, travel times, etc.  that the distance between Santiago and Sydney is about 7,000 miles and The distance between LA and Sydney is about 7,500 miles.



As an example each one of these maps has a huge problem where the distances don't match observed and measured distances:
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Rowbotham_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Charles_K._Johnson_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Gleason%27s_Map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Voliva_map.jpg
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Orlando_Ferguson_Map.jpg

None of these maps can possibly be correct because they all show the distance between LA and Sydney is one half of the distance between Santiago and Sydney which is blatantly incorrect.

Welcome Iamcpc, I was hoping you would participate in this thread.  I like your reasoning about observed distances, it is your discussions that sparked this idea in my mind several weeks ago.

I completely agree, none of those maps work.  The reason I'm going with this list of observations is that they are not disputed.  There are people in the FE community that dispute the distance from New York to Paris.  There are some that claim the southern flights don't exist.  They don't dispute these simple observations and even allow data from timeanddate.com.  So, if we can all agree on a set of observations that are not in dispute, we can then use these to guide us toward methods to lay out a map.

[iamcpc]

Welcome Iamcpc, I was hoping you would participate in this thread.  I like your reasoning about observed distances, it is your discussions that sparked this idea in my mind several weeks ago.

I completely agree, none of those maps work.  The reason I'm going with this list of observations is that they are not disputed.  There are people in the FE community that dispute the distance from New York to Paris.  There are some that claim the southern flights don't exist.  They don't dispute these simple observations and even allow data from timeanddate.com.  So, if we can all agree on a set of observations that are not in dispute, we can then use these to guide us toward methods to lay out a map.

The problem is they are heavily disputed because of things like atmospheric refraction, limitations of the human eye, mirage effects etc.

It's much more difficult to dispute this:

A flight between Santiago and Sydney is about 14 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.


A flight between LA and Sydney is about 15 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.





https://www.icontainers.com/ship-container/sydney/


The amount of time it takes to ship something via sea from LA to Sydney is about 22 days
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.


https://www.movehub.com/cl/international-shipping/australia/
The amount of time it takes to ship something from via sea is about 22 days



Why are these travel and shipping times so vastly different than what is predicted in the flat earth maps? It's because they are horribly inaccurate. Until you can reconcile known distances to a flat earth map what we debate on in terms of the position of a perceived position of a light in the sky is a moot point.


This is one of the more accurate flat earth map I've found. It follow the infinite repeating plane flat earth model which is the only one that makes any sense to me.
http://earth3dmap.com/
During the winter solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn and during the summer solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn.

[MCToon]

Welcome Iamcpc, I was hoping you would participate in this thread.  I like your reasoning about observed distances, it is your discussions that sparked this idea in my mind several weeks ago.

I completely agree, none of those maps work.  The reason I'm going with this list of observations is that they are not disputed.  There are people in the FE community that dispute the distance from New York to Paris.  There are some that claim the southern flights don't exist.  They don't dispute these simple observations and even allow data from timeanddate.com.  So, if we can all agree on a set of observations that are not in dispute, we can then use these to guide us toward methods to lay out a map.

The problem is they are heavily disputed because of things like atmospheric refraction, limitations of the human eye, mirage effects etc.

It's much more difficult to dispute this:

A flight between Santiago and Sydney is about 14 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.

A flight between LA and Sydney is about 15 hours.
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.

https://www.icontainers.com/ship-container/sydney/

The amount of time it takes to ship something via sea from LA to Sydney is about 22 days
Hundreds of thousands of people can corroborate this. Limitations of perspective or optical effects don't apply here.

https://www.movehub.com/cl/international-shipping/australia/
The amount of time it takes to ship something from via sea is about 22 days

Why are these travel and shipping times so vastly different than what is predicted in the flat earth maps? It's because they are horribly inaccurate. Until you can reconcile known distances to a flat earth map what we debate on in terms of the position of a perceived position of a light in the sky is a moot point.

This is one of the more accurate flat earth map I've found. It follow the infinite repeating plane flat earth model which is the only one that makes any sense to me.
http://earth3dmap.com/
During the winter solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn and during the summer solstice the sun is over the tropic of Capricorn.

Flight and shipping times certainly are damning for FE, however, we still have FE proponents that claim the times are padded or otherwise faked because it involves people.  People that can be in on the big lie.  The traversal of the sun across the sky doesn't involve people, it can't lie.

I addressed your map in this post, lets keep that discussion there:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10743.msg167027#msg167027

[iamcpc]

Flight and shipping times certainly are damning for FE, however, we still have FE proponents that claim the times are padded or otherwise faked because it involves people.  People that can be in on the big lie.  The traversal of the sun across the sky doesn't involve people, it can't lie.

They are not damning for FE. They are damning for the FE maps presented in this thread. Again I fail to see the point of sun position on the map of the earth. If there was no sun we could still make a map of the earth.

I've never seen anyone claim that times are padded as I have to know what time the plane takes off to board the plane and when I land someone had to know what time the plane lands to pick me up from the airport.

The observation of the sun across the sky does involve people making an observation with our limited perceptive ability under very chaotic atmospheric conditions has been debated with no headway. Just because you observe a sun to be in a certain position at a certain time does not mean that it's really there.

Sun observations mean nothing when they get lost in a logic loop of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path. These are real measurable observable scientific/optical phenomenon that both flat earth and round earth people agree have a significant impact on observations made. In addition any claims to fake/fabricated evidence claims can also be made about sun observations.




I observed one arrow facing left while an observer under different atmospheric conditions could see an arrow facing a different direction, while being a different size or in a different position.

[stack]

The observation of the sun across the sky does involve people making an observation with our limited perceptive ability under very chaotic atmospheric conditions has been debated with no headway. Just because you observe a sun to be in a certain position at a certain time does not mean that it's really there.

Sun observations mean nothing when they get lost in a logic loop of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path. These are real measurable observable scientific/optical phenomenon that both flat earth and round earth people agree have a significant impact on observations made. In addition any claims to fake/fabricated evidence claims can also be made about sun observations.

Fair point. However, I would argue that the sun, moon and stars have been successfully used for navigation purposes for 100's if not 1000's of years. So, in essence, the heavenly bodies are just as important to a map as are port-to-port distances.

[MCToon]

Flight and shipping times certainly are damning for FE, however, we still have FE proponents that claim the times are padded or otherwise faked because it involves people.  People that can be in on the big lie.  The traversal of the sun across the sky doesn't involve people, it can't lie.

They are not damning for FE. They are damning for the FE maps presented in this thread. Again I fail to see the point of sun position on the map of the earth. If there was no sun we could still make a map of the earth.

I've never seen anyone claim that times are padded as I have to know what time the plane takes off to board the plane and when I land someone had to know what time the plane lands to pick me up from the airport.

The observation of the sun across the sky does involve people making an observation with our limited perceptive ability under very chaotic atmospheric conditions has been debated with no headway. Just because you observe a sun to be in a certain position at a certain time does not mean that it's really there.

Sun observations mean nothing when they get lost in a logic loop of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path. These are real measurable observable scientific/optical phenomenon that both flat earth and round earth people agree have a significant impact on observations made. In addition any claims to fake/fabricated evidence claims can also be made about sun observations.

I observed one arrow facing left while an observer under different atmospheric conditions could see an arrow facing a different direction, while being a different size or in a different position.

I welcome claims of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path for the sun travel.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.  Regarding the video, I have seen no claims or evidence of large refractive objects on the sky.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

I have intentionally chosen sun paths that are apparently nearly perfectly straight.  This makes it exceedingly unlikely to claim any effect is curving light east or west.  If something appears straight but is, in reality, curved, the thing causing it to appear straight has to be very perfectly aligned.  As there are numerous simultaneous observers from different locations this refractive thing would have to be amazingly complicated.  Only the most desperate of straw grabbing will suggest this, and, claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

I like your flight and ship timings and distances.  This is a different take at it.  From what I have seen, the observations of the sun's path are well accepted.  Iamcpc, if you don't like this take at it, that's fine.  I think it has great merit to guide the layout of a FE map.  For example, observation #1 requires a straight equator, removing the AE map variants from consideration.  Observations #2 and #3 require the tropics to be straight, removing the common bi-polar map from consideration.  Both of these observations keep your
earth3dmap.com in the running. 

[iamcpc]

I welcome claims of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path for the sun travel.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.  Regarding the video, I have seen no claims or evidence of large refractive objects on the sky.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

When creating a map of the earth, perceived position of the  Sun has nothing to do with it. An experience cartographer/surveyor can work easily at night or even during a cloudy day.

Yet if you insist on the position of the sun over the map then that's already been done. Here is an infinite repeating plane model showing the position of the sun for anywhere on earth any day.


http://suncalc.net/#/51.508,-0.125,2/2018.09.26/17:28



On this map all of the following conditions hold true.
1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

[stack]

On this map all of the following conditions hold true.

It's not straight, but arc'd, at least how I'm interpreting it:

[Tom Bishop]

You need to demonstrate your premise.

Where are the world-wide observations that back up your assertions that the sun does all of these things exactly as you claim it to do?

[stack]

Kind of not helpful. I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps. This effort is to try and construct a working, meets observable reality, FE map.

More constructive would be:
A) How might you demonstrate the premise?
B) Lay out what about the premise you disagree with and why.

Take for example, does FET agree or disagree with "on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.”? If so, cool, 4 to go. If not, why not and where does the sun path on the equinox for FET?

And so on.

[Pete Svarrior]

I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps.

I'm not sure how you can say that, given that the concept behind the monopole model long predates the popularisation of RET. The fact is that all maps are maps of the Earth. I could similarly assert that all of your maps are maps of the Flat Earth, and it would be an equally genuine argument.

[MCToon]

You need to demonstrate your premise.

Where are the world-wide observations that back up your assertions that the sun does all of these things exactly as you claim it to do?

That's the point of this thread.  I have tried to select observations that are already well accepted and easy to confirm without fancy or expensive equipment.

For example, in Ecuador, there is the Quitsato sundial, it's directly on the equator.  On the equinoxes the sun traces a straight path over this location.  This is easy to verify.  Many people have seen this and will attest to the correctness of this claim.  I don't expect anybody would disagree with this observation.  For this location on the equator.

More information on the Quitsato sundail:
http://www.quitsato.org/?lang=en

This details the construction of the sundial and placement of two indicators identifying due east and due west for confirmation on the equinox.  Document is in Spanish.
https://www.scribd.com/document/97475201/Documento-Posicionamiento-Reloj-Solar

So, given this example, do people agree that this can be generalized to all locations on the equator for observations 1 and 5?

This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

[MCToon]

I welcome claims of refraction, mirage effects, and photon travel path for the sun travel.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.  Regarding the video, I have seen no claims or evidence of large refractive objects on the sky.  Claims without evidence will be dismissed, it's the Zetetic way.

When creating a map of the earth, perceived position of the  Sun has nothing to do with it. An experience cartographer/surveyor can work easily at night or even during a cloudy day.

Yet if you insist on the position of the sun over the map then that's already been done. Here is an infinite repeating plane model showing the position of the sun for anywhere on earth any day.

http://suncalc.net/#/51.508,-0.125,2/2018.09.26/17:28

On this map all of the following conditions hold true.
1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Cool, thanks for the reference. I'll check it out to see if it supports the observations.

[Tom Bishop]

This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

What observation? Who made it? Where can we see records of this observation?

"We can all agree on these hypothetical observations" is not good enough.