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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1740 on: November 10, 2016, 09:53:37 AM »
The true losers of 2016, besides America, are the pollsters. What the fuck happened? Did everyone decide at the beginning of 2016 to just lie when people ask them how they're going to vote. Jaysus.
The pollsters rely on a number of factors (which I don't understand well enough, so I'll leave them vague) which are simply outdated. For example, they do not take into account the ever-growing number of people who have all but opted out from traditional media, and who instead rely on social-media-based alternatives. A decade ago, the amount of negative publicity Trump received from the media would be the kiss of death for his campaign long before the primaries. But that's just not the case anymore.

This is more or less what happened with Brexit, too. While exceptions apply, the division was mostly between experts and those who have (quite famously by now) had enough of experts. When society as a whole begins to fail certain groups, these groups seek alternatives. Whether you consider them reasonable or not, people like militant MRAs/MGTOWs, the alt-right, or campus SJWs feel that the current order of matters doesn't work for them. They seek alternatives, and when they're sufficiently pissed off, they'll take any alternative that seems like a stern departure from "the system". Such behaviour is difficult to predict unless you're already on the inside of these discontent group.

Also, more and more people cleave to their own kind either on the internet or (for the older generation) in their homes. The explosion of TV channels and internet groups leads counterintuitively to less choice as they can filter out what they don’t want to hear, and as the media seems incapable or unwilling to screen out, (or culpable in) the outrageous lies that politicians increasingly use to shock/scare/irate people to vote for them, this isolation with its lack of balance is hard to breach and it would seem harder to gauge.
Many people (such as my mother) also appear to have a sense of guilt that their views have hardened, whilst others become entrenched and defensive, so if reached by pollsters would probably refuse to answer or downright lie, further skewing results.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1741 on: November 10, 2016, 06:19:38 PM »
http://www.npr.org/2016/11/10/501566466/in-surreal-moment-president-elect-donald-trump-meets-with-president-obama

What.
The.
Fuck.

Ok so what this tells me is that everyone who voted for Trump just got anti-Trump.
I'm actually starting to wonder if Trump may actually become decent.  And that all of his persona during the election was purely an act to get elected.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1742 on: November 10, 2016, 07:27:22 PM »
I'm actually starting to wonder if Trump may actually become decent.  And that all of his persona during the election was purely an act to get elected.

It's not only Trump that should be worrying. He won't be the one making laws. It's the complete lack of Democratic power in, soon, all three branches of government. Go read the GOP platform that was published at the RNC this year. That is the policy that will be passed under a Trump administration, and Trump is not going to veto anything that is in pursuit of the GOP platform.

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Offline xasop

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1743 on: November 10, 2016, 07:47:45 PM »
Ok so what this tells me is that everyone who voted for Trump just got anti-Trump.
I'm actually starting to wonder if Trump may actually become decent.  And that all of his persona during the election was purely an act to get elected.

No, this is just politics. They would be saying this no matter how much they hated each other, because they have another two months to go until Trump takes over, and nobody wants to start a frenzy of media drama for the next two months.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1744 on: November 10, 2016, 08:00:17 PM »
Ok so what this tells me is that everyone who voted for Trump just got anti-Trump.
I'm actually starting to wonder if Trump may actually become decent.  And that all of his persona during the election was purely an act to get elected.

No, this is just politics. They would be saying this no matter how much they hated each other, because they have another two months to go until Trump takes over, and nobody wants to start a frenzy of media drama for the next two months.
I'd believe that if I hadn't seen the last 6 months of Trump's media frenzy.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline xasop

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1745 on: November 10, 2016, 11:51:31 PM »
I'd believe that if I hadn't seen the last 6 months of Trump's media frenzy.

Again, that's politics. That's how campaigns work, which is different from how actual presidential office works. It's not like Hillary Clinton was sitting quietly in a corner the whole time.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1746 on: November 11, 2016, 03:14:52 AM »

George

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1747 on: November 12, 2016, 04:18:56 AM »
The true losers of 2016, besides America, are the pollsters. What the fuck happened? Did everyone decide at the beginning of 2016 to just lie when people ask them how they're going to vote. Jaysus.
The pollsters rely on a number of factors (which I don't understand well enough, so I'll leave them vague) which are simply outdated. For example, they do not take into account the ever-growing number of people who have all but opted out from traditional media, and who instead rely on social-media-based alternatives. A decade ago, the amount of negative publicity Trump received from the media would be the kiss of death for his campaign long before the primaries. But that's just not the case anymore.

This is more or less what happened with Brexit, too. While exceptions apply, the division was mostly between experts and those who have (quite famously by now) had enough of experts. When society as a whole begins to fail certain groups, these groups seek alternatives. Whether you consider them reasonable or not, people like militant MRAs/MGTOWs, the alt-right, or campus SJWs feel that the current order of matters doesn't work for them. They seek alternatives, and when they're sufficiently pissed off, they'll take any alternative that seems like a stern departure from "the system". Such behaviour is difficult to predict unless you're already on the inside of these discontent group.

Also, more and more people cleave to their own kind either on the internet or (for the older generation) in their homes. The explosion of TV channels and internet groups leads counterintuitively to less choice as they can filter out what they don’t want to hear, and as the media seems incapable or unwilling to screen out, (or culpable in) the outrageous lies that politicians increasingly use to shock/scare/irate people to vote for them, this isolation with its lack of balance is hard to breach and it would seem harder to gauge.
Many people (such as my mother) also appear to have a sense of guilt that their views have hardened, whilst others become entrenched and defensive, so if reached by pollsters would probably refuse to answer or downright lie, further skewing results.

I don't agree with this part.  There was very thorough fact-checking from the media throughout the election, and anyone who was so inclined could do a cursory Google search and discover the extensive documentation and debunking of Trump's endless lies.  In some cases, you didn't even need to go online, as the TV news shows fact-checked Trump in their chyrons.  I'm sure we've all seen these hilarious pictures:









For some people, reality simply can't overrule what their intuition tells them.  They live in a "feels>reals world" to borrow Rushy's phrasing.  Trump feels like he's honest.  How could someone so seemingly impulsive and outspoken, always willing to bark out how he feels no matter how people react to it, be a liar?  And Hillary feels like she's dishonest.  How could someone so shrewd and guarded, always carefully choosing her words and trying to maintain good political form at all times, be someone who tells the truth more than the plain-spoken Trump?

That's a cynical outlook, and while I have no doubt that many of Trump's fans fit it perfectly, it can't be entirely accurate.  What SexWarrior said about people simply being disconnected from the mainstream media and/or desperate enough to go with a wild card that promises real change is more likely.  I guess it's hard to care that much about whether or not Trump mocked a disabled reporter when he's the only candidate telling you that he can help you out.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1748 on: November 12, 2016, 05:48:50 AM »
I don't think its "feels".  I think its bending perception to desire.  Trump said what they thought: Illegals took our jobs, Obama and Clinton are evil, X deals are horrible, I will fix your problems with minimal effort from you.


And when you have the conclusion of "Trump is my candidate cause he says it like it is" then you make excuses to dismiss facts.


"Snopes is liberal garbage"
"Mainstream media is owned by Clinton."
"Fact checkers are liars"
Etc...


Its like religion.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1749 on: November 12, 2016, 02:11:35 PM »
There was very thorough fact-checking from the media throughout the election, and anyone who was so inclined could do a cursory Google search and discover the extensive documentation and debunking of Trump's endless lies.  In some cases, you didn't even need to go online, as the TV news shows fact-checked Trump in their chyrons.
I agree with most of your post, but let's not forget that Hillary also exists; and her getting a free pass on the (much fewer, but also more poorly executed) blatant lies did not win the media any friends among the already disenfranchised. Gary's point from a while ago directed at me applies here as well:

in fairness sw, your indigence would be more convincing if it were evenly applied.

It's all well and good that pro-Clinton media were quick to jump on Trump at every possible opportunity, but it doesn't help to convince those who aren't already convinced. It achieves the opposite.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 02:18:49 PM by SexWarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1750 on: November 12, 2016, 03:48:17 PM »
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/did-donald-trump-say-hed-refuse-to-take-a-salary-as-president/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=31071717

Trump already saved the country 1.6 million dollars. Under budget. Ahead of schedule.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1751 on: November 12, 2016, 04:12:18 PM »
we're very early on to be sure, but so far trump's teams appears to be indicating that he's going to let paul ryan control the legislative agenda.  as a mostly-centrist, that actually makes me pretty happy.  i'd much rather ryan set trump's docket for him, so to speak.  but doesn't that run afoul of his campaign message of draining the swamp and not letting washington insiders control the white house?
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1752 on: November 12, 2016, 04:48:18 PM »
we're very early on to be sure, but so far trump's teams appears to be indicating that he's going to let paul ryan control the legislative agenda.  as a mostly-centrist, that actually makes me pretty happy.  i'd much rather ryan set trump's docket for him, so to speak.  but doesn't that run afoul of his campaign message of draining the swamp and not letting washington insiders control the white house?

Anyone who thought the "swamp" was going to be drained was naïve. That ain't happening.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1753 on: November 12, 2016, 04:48:57 PM »
we're very early on to be sure, but so far trump's teams appears to be indicating that he's going to let paul ryan control the legislative agenda.  as a mostly-centrist, that actually makes me pretty happy.  i'd much rather ryan set trump's docket for him, so to speak.  but doesn't that run afoul of his campaign message of draining the swamp and not letting washington insiders control the white house?
Trump has gone 180 from his campaign.
He no longer wants to repeal Obamacare.
He's no longer going to focus on the wall (it'll be built... eventually).
He's not going to make China pay 45% import tax.
And he says Obama is both a fine man AND he'll seek his council.

But of course, his supporters aren't gonna talk about this.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1754 on: November 12, 2016, 05:12:04 PM »
Anyone who thought the "swamp" was going to be drained was naïve. That ain't happening.
So far, he's doing better than others
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1755 on: November 12, 2016, 06:22:43 PM »
we're very early on to be sure, but so far trump's teams appears to be indicating that he's going to let paul ryan control the legislative agenda.  as a mostly-centrist, that actually makes me pretty happy.  i'd much rather ryan set trump's docket for him, so to speak.  but doesn't that run afoul of his campaign message of draining the swamp and not letting washington insiders control the white house?
Trump has gone 180 from his campaign.
He no longer wants to repeal Obamacare.
He's no longer going to focus on the wall (it'll be built... eventually).
He's not going to make China pay 45% import tax.
And he says Obama is both a fine man AND he'll seek his council.

But of course, his supporters aren't gonna talk about this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

Quote
The press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.

Please, we've been saying this for months. The person you (Dave) think Trump represents is actually just a straw man built by the media. They lied to you, and now instead of acknowledging that, you instead seek to lash out.

Quote
“I am blown away!” said one worker, an African American man who asked for anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to speak to the press. “The man I just saw there talking to people is nothing like what I’ve seen, day in and day out, in the news.”

Congratulations on being easily manipulated, Dave. Keep up the good work.

For example you haven't even bothered to look up what you're talking about. When did "I'll keep parts of Obamacare, such as requiring insurance companies to ignore preexisting conditions" turn into "HE ISN'T GOING TO REPEAL OBAMACARE OMG"? Trump is a businessman. He isn't going to actually make black-and-white decisions. He isn't dumb, he isn't literally Hitler, he's a business mogul. Thinking Trump is a retarded version of Hitler is just as bad as thinking Hillary was literally a pedosatanist.

This is going to be 8 long years of cognitive dissonance. Where Trump actually gets things done that are good for the nation (even things the left wanted done themselves!) and they spin it to be bad, more or less what the right did to Obama for eight years.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 06:27:13 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1756 on: November 12, 2016, 07:09:08 PM »
we're very early on to be sure, but so far trump's teams appears to be indicating that he's going to let paul ryan control the legislative agenda.  as a mostly-centrist, that actually makes me pretty happy.  i'd much rather ryan set trump's docket for him, so to speak.  but doesn't that run afoul of his campaign message of draining the swamp and not letting washington insiders control the white house?
Trump has gone 180 from his campaign.
He no longer wants to repeal Obamacare.
He's no longer going to focus on the wall (it'll be built... eventually).
He's not going to make China pay 45% import tax.
And he says Obama is both a fine man AND he'll seek his council.

But of course, his supporters aren't gonna talk about this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-makes-his-case-in-pittsburgh/501335/

Quote
The press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.

Please, we've been saying this for months. The person you (Dave) think Trump represents is actually just a straw man built by the media. They lied to you, and now instead of acknowledging that, you instead seek to lash out.

Quote
“I am blown away!” said one worker, an African American man who asked for anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to speak to the press. “The man I just saw there talking to people is nothing like what I’ve seen, day in and day out, in the news.”

Congratulations on being easily manipulated, Dave. Keep up the good work.

For example you haven't even bothered to look up what you're talking about. When did "I'll keep parts of Obamacare, such as requiring insurance companies to ignore preexisting conditions" turn into "HE ISN'T GOING TO REPEAL OBAMACARE OMG"? Trump is a businessman. He isn't going to actually make black-and-white decisions. He isn't dumb, he isn't literally Hitler, he's a business mogul. Thinking Trump is a retarded version of Hitler is just as bad as thinking Hillary was literally a pedosatanist.

This is going to be 8 long years of cognitive dissonance. Where Trump actually gets things done that are good for the nation (even things the left wanted done themselves!) and they spin it to be bad, more or less what the right did to Obama for eight years.
But I've heard him speak.  I've SEEN his rallies.
Like here:


Repeal and Replace.
Great.  Fine.
But the parts he wants to keep?  That's the parts that are causing the issues.  Insurance premiums aren't spiking because of the new regulations, they're spiking because insurance companies can no longer turn away those who have long term care needs that are greater than their payments.

He's also talked alot about building a wall and how it's so important.

Look, I'll admit the left wing media painted him negatively.  But he didn't exactly help his case either.  He yelled, called for Hillary to be locked up, called her a horrible person, and a liar.  The media can build what they want but at the end of the day, his rallies and the debates speak for themselves.  No amount of media manipulation can change that.  And no amount of media strawmanning is going to suddenly make his very direct words change meaning.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1757 on: November 12, 2016, 07:35:55 PM »
Insurance premiums are spiking because companies have been given monopolies over the states they control. You don't get to choose between companies, so they get to charge you whatever they want. They don't have a price cap, they just have to give the government the prices in advance and say "we're doing this next fiscal year" and that doesn't invalidate their contract.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1758 on: November 12, 2016, 07:50:09 PM »
Anyone who thought the "swamp" was going to be drained was naïve. That ain't happening.
So far, he's doing better than others

I wouldn't call the members of his cabinet short list of Ben Carson, Chris Christie, Rudy Giuliani, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, Stephen Bannon, and Myron Ebell "better." They're almost all part of the Republican establishment. It's not surprising, given that Trump is apparently letting Pence pick his cabinet members for him, but it's far from "draining the swamp."
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 07:57:54 PM by trekky0623 »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1759 on: November 12, 2016, 08:07:41 PM »
Insurance premiums are spiking because companies have been given monopolies over the states they control. You don't get to choose between companies, so they get to charge you whatever they want. They don't have a price cap, they just have to give the government the prices in advance and say "we're doing this next fiscal year" and that doesn't invalidate their contract.
But they didn't spike like they are now.  Not like they suddenly got a monopoly.
And even so, it IS profit prohibitive to allow customers whose medical costs per lifetime exceed their lifetime contribution. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.