[sandokhan]

If the Fed raises the rates at least by a quarter point (09/21), then it will greatly help the Trump campaign.

[garygreen]

my favorite trump move, officially, is the one where he says he never said shit that anyone can find video of him saying multiple times.  good1

[Rushy]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/09/18/obama-says-its-personal-insult-if-black-voters-dont-back-clinton.html

Polls are showing Trump has about 20% support from blacks. The result? President Obama engages full blown race baiting.

"Trump's a racist!" Roughly 35% of Hispanics and 20% of blacks don't believe you anymore, idiots. The Hillary Heresy will be destroyed.

[George]

"Trump's a racist!"

That's not what he said.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that every time you've uttered that phrase in this thread, you were responding to an argument that was in reality far more nuanced.  In this case, what Obama was criticizing was Trump's opposition to "our progress," apparently represented by tolerance, democracy, justice, good schools, and ending mass incarceration.  That's so vague it could have been said by any politician.  Disagree with it all you want, but it's far from whatever cynical alt-right buzzword you're describing it as.

But hey, speaking of racism, it's funny to see birtherism back in the news.  Trump's been claiming that Hillary was the one who started the birther nuts off, and that he was the one who put it to rest by getting Obama the state of Hawaii to release his long-form birth certificate back in 2011.  Both of those claims are blatantly false, and the latter is especially easy to debunk from looking at the many tweets he's posted since he supposedly resolved the issue continuing to express skepticism (the article posts a few of them, here's another).  Trump doesn't consider the matter closed at all.  He'd bring it back up again in an instant if he felt it was to his advantage, and his supporters would simply ignore his inconsistency, just like they're currently ignoring his inconsistency on whether he's positive or neutral (not even negative, just neutral!) about Putin.  No, Trump isn't a racist.  He just likes to use racists as his base.

[Pete Svarrior]

Hillary was the one who started the birther nuts off

Indirectly, she was. Tacit approval of shitty things that one's supporter's do is something Trump keeps getting shit for (and here, across the pond, the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn). It's only fair that Hillary receives the same treatment.

[Rushy]

More specifically, Sidney Blumenthal started the birther nonsense. Having your top aide try to make the argument about Obama's heritage and then claiming you didn't start it is pretty hilarious.

And actually, "Trump's a racist!" is pretty much exactly what Obama said. He told an entire race of people not to vote for Trump because... why else? Oh, he's a racist! Race baiting doesn't work anymore and the longer Democrats keep trying to use it the deeper the hole they'll dig.

The paradox of racism: Don't assume all black people act one way because of the color of their skin AND YET expect all black people to act one way because of the color of their skin.

[garygreen]

More specifically, Sidney Blumenthal started the birther nonsense. Having your top aide try to make the argument about Obama's heritage and then claiming you didn't start it is pretty hilarious.

And actually, "Trump's a racist!" is pretty much exactly what Obama said. He told an entire race of people not to vote for Trump because... why else? Oh, he's a racist! Race baiting doesn't work anymore and the longer Democrats keep trying to use it the deeper the hole they'll dig.

The paradox of racism: Don't assume all black people act one way because of the color of their skin AND YET expect all black people to act one way because of the color of their skin.

What is your source that a Clinton aid started the birther movement?

[Rushy]

More specifically, Sidney Blumenthal started the birther nonsense. Having your top aide try to make the argument about Obama's heritage and then claiming you didn't start it is pretty hilarious.

And actually, "Trump's a racist!" is pretty much exactly what Obama said. He told an entire race of people not to vote for Trump because... why else? Oh, he's a racist! Race baiting doesn't work anymore and the longer Democrats keep trying to use it the deeper the hole they'll dig.

The paradox of racism: Don't assume all black people act one way because of the color of their skin AND YET expect all black people to act one way because of the color of their skin.

What is your source that a Clinton aid started the birther movement?

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article102354777.html

Sidney Blumenthal is the one who supposedly spread it as far as he could. He has been a constant aid to Hillary (and still is) even after President Obama blacklisted him from the White House (oh, gee, I wonder what pissed him off?)

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/30/four-sid-blumenthal-emails-in-latest-clinton-release-are-completely-classified/

The original email release (the legal one, from the investigation) had several back-and-forth emails between Hillary and Blumenthal having discussions relating to State department intelligence. Again, this is after Obama blacklisted Blumenthal. Hillary shouldn't be contacting him at all. He was a top aid to her then, and he still is, and it is highly likely he kept the birther issue going. Saying he started it entirely may be stretch, but he definitely had a hand in ensuring it caught fire.

[George]

Hillary was the one who started the birther nuts off

Indirectly, she was. Tacit approval of shitty things that one's supporter's do is something Trump keeps getting shit for (and here, across the pond, the same applies to Jeremy Corbyn). It's only fair that Hillary receives the same treatment.

At worst, Hillary turned a blind eye to her supporters who promoted the birther theories, and she at least publicly disavowed the idea when she was asked about it.  Trump, however, has made a point of publicly remaining neutral and/or playing dumb whenever he's faced with his more unsavory supporters, and has even openly embraced some of them (especially on Twitter).  I could probably make the distinction better with an example of a fellow conservative with some very controversial supporters - Ron Paul.  Like Trump, Paul had some very crazy, racist, and vocal supporters, but he kept his distance from them, and so largely avoided been lumped in with them by the media.  The one issue that he did get into some trouble over was the dubious articles that appeared in his newsletters, because those were officially attached to him.

And actually, "Trump's a racist!" is pretty much exactly what Obama said. He told an entire race of people not to vote for Trump because... why else? Oh, he's a racist! Race baiting doesn't work anymore and the longer Democrats keep trying to use it the deeper the hole they'll dig.

"Why else?"  Are you seriously suggesting that the only reason Obama could give to convince black people not to vote for Trump is that he's racist?  Look, here's the full text of what Obama said:

Our work's not done. But if we are going to advance the cause of justice, and equality, and prosperity, and freedom, then we also have to acknowledge that even if we eliminated every restriction on voters, we would still have one of the lowest voting rates among free peoples. That's not good, that is on us.

And I am reminded of all those folks who had to count bubbles in a bar of soap, beaten trying to register voters in Mississippi. Risked everything so that they could pull that lever. So, if I hear anybody saying their vote does not matter, that it doesn't matter who we elect, read up on your history. It matters. We've got to get people to vote.

In fact, if you want to give Michelle and me a good sendoff, and that was a beautiful video, but don't just watch us walk off into the sunset now, get people registered to vote. If you care about our legacy, realize everything we stand for is at stake, on the progress we have made is at stake in this election.

My name may not be on the ballot, but our progress is on the ballot. Tolerance is on the ballot. Democracy is on the ballot. Justice is on the ballot. Good schools are on the ballot. Ending mass incarceration, that's on the ballot right now.

And there is one candidate who will advance those things. And there is another candidate who's defining principal, the central theme of his candidacy is opposition to all that we have done.

There's no such thing as a vote that doesn't matter. It all matters. And after we have achieved historic turnout in 2008 and 2012, especially in the African-American community, I will consider it a personal insult, an insult to my legacy, if this community lets down it's guard and fails to activate itself in this election. You want to give me a good send off? Go vote! And iI'm going to be working as hard as I can these next seven weeks to make sure folks do.

Hope is on the ballot. And fear is on the ballot too. Hope is on the ballot and fear is on the ballot too.

There's nothing there calling Trump racist.  Maybe it's implied when he said that "tolerance" is at stake, but that's very slim grounds for you to base your generalization on.  It seems more like you saw that this was a negative statement about Trump that also talked about race, so you made your usual knee-jerk assumption that the author was just saying, "Trump is racist!"  Also, could you please define the term "race-baiting" for me?

The paradox of racism: Don't assume all black people act one way because of the color of their skin AND YET expect all black people to act one way because of the color of their skin.

I love how you put this in quote tags as if it's some kind of wise aphorism.  The only thing it's missing is the "I'm not a professional quote-maker..." disclaimer at the beginning.

[Pete Svarrior]

Hillary turned a blind eye to her supporters who promoted the birther theories

Yeah, that's what I meant by "tacit approval"

Also, could you please define the term "race-baiting" for me?

I'll have a stab at it. Race-baiting is using the subjects of race and racism to achieve goals that aren't really relevant. It could be selling a product, achieving a political goal, or pretty much anything else.

A good example is some of the recent BLM activities in the UK - a bunch of white environmentalists disrupting an airport because "the climate crisis is a racist crisis". They used race to try and legitimise their actions, even though they were not black, nor did they do anything that really helps black people.

Obama's "if you're black then vote in the way I told you to or else I'll be offended" can also be an example. Since none of Trump's policies are directly linked to race, choosing who you vote for should be a matter of political views, not race...

[Lord Dave]

While not specifically race... isn't Trump's policy of banning Muslims very similar?

Also, I read what Obama said and he didn't say offended nor about race.  What he said could apply to gays, transexuals, and white people who hate all the cop killings.

There may be a racial subtext there, but there's also a gay subtext so is it really race baiting?

[Rama Set]

Obama was definitely pointing towards the emancipation and civil rights promotions of African Americans as a struggle that needs to be continued.

[Lord Dave]

Obama was definitely pointing towards the emancipation and civil rights promotions of African Americans as a struggle that needs to be continued.

True but we haven't had any similar civil rights movement with regards to transgender or gays.

[Pete Svarrior]

While not specifically race... isn't Trump's policy of banning Muslims very similar?

Arguably, but that's neither here nor there when you're making an appeal to African-Americans specifically.

Also, I read what Obama said and he didn't say offended nor about race.  What he said could apply to gays, transexuals, and white people who hate all the cop killings.

It was the Congressional Black Caucus dinner. He was certainly speaking to a well-defined demographic. And he did say he would take it as a personal insult if they didn't vote - I don't think it's a big stretch to paraphrase that as "he'd be offended".

There may be a racial subtext there, but there's also a gay subtext so is it really race baiting?

I really think it's more than subtext - if he gave the same speech elsewhere, fair enough, I can see how it could go either way.

[Lord Dave]

Ah, I didn't realize where he said it.

Ok, yeah, race card all the way.  Well... race history.

[Rushy]

There's nothing there calling Trump racist.  Maybe it's implied when he said that "tolerance" is at stake, but that's very slim grounds for you to base your generalization on.  It seems more like you saw that this was a negative statement about Trump that also talked about race, so you made your usual knee-jerk assumption that the author was just saying, "Trump is racist!"  Also, could you please define the term "race-baiting" for me?

The paradox of racism: Don't assume all black people act one way because of the color of their skin AND YET expect all black people to act one way because of the color of their skin.

I love how you put this in quote tags as if it's some kind of wise aphorism.  The only thing it's missing is the "I'm not a professional quote-maker..." disclaimer at the beginning.

Obama told an entire race of people to vote a certain way. How is that not race -baiting in the world you live in?

Also, I put a quote box around it because ...surprise!... I'm not the one that said it. That's what quotes are, Saddam. They're things you didn't say yourself.

[Rama Set]

If Obama legitimately believes that Trump presents a real threat to the progress of African-American's then it is not race-baiting.

[garygreen]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article102354777.html

Sidney Blumenthal is the one who supposedly spread it as far as he could. He has been a constant aid to Hillary (and still is) even after President Obama blacklisted him from the White House (oh, gee, I wonder what pissed him off?)

your source doesn't say that it was blumenthal who spread the birther movement.  the only attribution to blumenthal is in a single uncorroborated conversation:

Meanwhile, former McClatchy Washington Bureau Chief James Asher tweeted Friday that Blumenthal had “told me in person” that Obama was born in Kenya.

“During the 2008 Democratic primary, Sid Blumenthal visited the Washington Bureau of McClatchy Co.,” Asher said in an email Friday to McClatchy, noting that he was at the time the investigative editor and in charge of Africa coverage.

“During that meeting, Mr. Blumenthal and I met together in my office and he strongly urged me to investigate the exact place of President Obama’s birth, which he suggested was in Kenya. We assigned a reporter to go to Kenya, and that reporter determined that the allegation was false.

“At the time of Mr. Blumenthal’s conversation with me, there had been a few news articles published in various outlets reporting on rumors about Obama’s birthplace. While Mr. Blumenthal offered no concrete proof of Obama’s Kenyan birth, I felt that, as journalists, we had a responsibility to determine whether or not those rumors were true. They were not.”

i personally have no trouble believing that this conversation took place, but it doesn't really matter.  the birther stuff was already around and already being spread, mostly by folks on the right.  hillary distanced herself from birthers right off the bat.

In fact, there were several people publicly pushing the theory, which was repeated extensively on conservative news outlets. There were the two Clinton supporters, but there is no evidence that Clinton herself or her campaign spread the story.

Patti Solis Doyle, Clinton’s campaign manager during part of the 2008 race, told CNN on Friday that an Iowa campaign worker had passed on an email about the birther conspiracy and that Clinton quickly fired him.

Solis Doyle said she’d called Obama campaign official David Plouffe at the time “to apologize and basically say that this was not coming from us. It was a rogue volunteer coordinator.”

your article also has a link to this page that describes the spread of the movement in 2009.

SPREADING THE STORY

The Internet helped spread the story, through Web sites such as WorldNetDaily.com and dozens of other conservative sites, often repeating charges without evidence or attribution beyond other like-minded Web sites.

"This is abetted by changes in the structure of communications," said Michael Barkun, an expert in conspiracy theories and a political science professor at the Maxwell School at Syracuse University.

"What once would have been fringe ideas are spread very quickly and much more widely than would have been the case even 10 years ago. . . . Ideas that originate in quite small subcultures can very quickly get mainstreamed."

Once the story spread on the Internet, several of the birthers have found a stage on talk radio and cable TV. Lou Dobbs of CNN, for example, has said he thinks the allegation is false, yet he continues airing them.

i think it's absurdly revisionist to say that clinton "started" the birther movement and that trump "finished" it.  it seems the closest anyone can come to substantiating the former is a conversation with someone who isn't hillary clinton that may not have even happened.  the latter is contradicted by copious videos and tweets from donald trump himself over the last five years explicitly stating that he believes obama is from kenya, his birth certificate is fake, etc.

lol but because he says literally one time that he believes obama is am american citizen, suddenly he gets credit for "finishing" the movement?  what?  the movement he's been championing almost single-handedly for five years?  dude you don't have to like hillarly clinton, but do you really have such a boner for the god emperor that you can't admit that, yes, trump has been the primary flag bearer for the birther movement, and he's been doing it for way longer than anyone else? 

[Rushy]

i personally have no trouble believing that this conversation took place, but it doesn't really matter.  the birther stuff was already around and already being spread, mostly by folks on the right.  hillary distanced herself from birthers right off the bat.

Hillary never fully disavowed. She likely fanned the flames in an attempt to pull voters from Obama. Too bad her plan failed, a common occurence.

lol but because he says literally one time that he believes obama is am american citizen, suddenly he gets credit for "finishing" the movement?  what?  the movement he's been championing almost single-handedly for five years?  dude you don't have to like hillarly clinton, but do you really have such a boner for the god emperor that you can't admit that, yes, trump has been the primary flag bearer for the birther movement, and he's been doing it for way longer than anyone else?

Trump took a movement that Hillary started and used it to attack Obama, yes, essentially both are entirely at fault for the birther movement.

[garygreen]

essentially both are entirely at fault for the birther movement.

i can't tell if you're kidding or not.  one of them has never accused obama of being a foreigner and has explicitly decried the notion.  the other has been publicly advancing the same for at least 5 years.  those are equivalent to you?

Hillary never fully disavowed...She likely fanned the flames...her plan failed...a movement that Hillary started

source?