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Offline beardo

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1000 on: July 21, 2016, 09:51:01 AM »
The God-Emperor, duh
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1001 on: July 21, 2016, 09:56:44 AM »
I don't know if he's tough enough to take on bear wrestler Putin.
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Offline beardo

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1002 on: July 21, 2016, 10:58:45 AM »
He will deploy his golden armada.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1003 on: July 21, 2016, 12:24:52 PM »
But Putin is like diamond, which can break gold.
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Offline beardo

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1004 on: July 21, 2016, 01:00:35 PM »
What's he gonna do? Launch diamonds into orbit?
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1005 on: July 21, 2016, 01:19:10 PM »
No, Putin will challenge Trump to a one on one.  Trump would lose his hair.
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Offline beardo

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1006 on: July 21, 2016, 01:31:33 PM »
Can't stump the Trump.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1007 on: July 21, 2016, 02:50:18 PM »
Don't need to stump, just throw in the dump.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1008 on: July 21, 2016, 05:29:01 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/politics/donald-trump-issues.html?_r=0

let's make america great again by turning our foreign policy apparatus into an extortion racket.  that'll work.  hey maybe we can squeeze a few extra bucks out of estonia.

ffs.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1009 on: July 21, 2016, 05:48:48 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/politics/donald-trump-issues.html?_r=0

let's make america great again by turning our foreign policy apparatus into an extortion racket.  that'll work.  hey maybe we can squeeze a few extra bucks out of estonia.

ffs.

....

Ok, in fairness, this may actually be a good idea to reduce American hatred.  Yes, it's going to cause millions to suffer in the long run but getting America out of sticking it's nose into other countries business is the first step in making them not hate us as much.

Of course, I doubt this would apply to oil rich nations.  Trump is a businessman, after all.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1010 on: July 21, 2016, 08:23:20 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/politics/donald-trump-issues.html?_r=0

let's make america great again by turning our foreign policy apparatus into an extortion racket.  that'll work.  hey maybe we can squeeze a few extra bucks out of estonia.

ffs.

....

Ok, in fairness, this may actually be a good idea to reduce American hatred.  Yes, it's going to cause millions to suffer in the long run but getting America out of sticking it's nose into other countries business is the first step in making them not hate us as much.

Of course, I doubt this would apply to oil rich nations.  Trump is a businessman, after all.

if anything i think such a policy would only add to the list of people irritated with us, and it kinda puts our noses right in the middle of foreign budgets.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1011 on: July 21, 2016, 09:19:27 PM »


It stands to reason that these nations shouldn't get to benefit from NATO and not actually have to shoulder any burdens. It's a defense treaty, not a welfare club.

Quote from: Donald Trump
Our allies must contribute toward the financial, political and human costs of our tremendous security burden. But many of them are simply not doing so. They look at the United States as weak and forgiving and feel no obligation to honor their agreements with us.

In NATO, for instance, only 4 of 28 other member countries, besides America, are spending the minimum required 2% of GDP on defense.

We have spent trillions of dollars over time – on planes, missiles, ships, equipment – building up our military to provide a strong defense for Europe and Asia. The countries we are defending must pay for the cost of this defense – and, if not, the U.S. must be prepared to let these countries defend themselves.

The whole world will be safer if our allies do their part to support our common defense and security.

Note he said 4 of 28 as Estonia's numbers sometimes vary. They are pretty much at the minimum threshold, so the number may instead be 5.

He said 4 besides America; I am a big dumb.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 10:01:09 PM by Rushy »

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1012 on: July 22, 2016, 03:03:53 AM »
It stands to reason that these nations shouldn't get to benefit from NATO and not actually have to shoulder any burdens. It's a defense treaty, not a welfare club.

this is a very shortsighted and naive view of nato specifically and defense treaties in general; but, even if i accept the premise, then trump's rhetoric is still counterproductive at best and dangerous at worst.  if the us is interested in reducing those expenses, then it should negotiate to those ends in future cost-share agreements.  it shouldn't retroactively decide that it isn't happy with the cost-share agreement that it already negotiated and use the threat of violence of extract concessions from our allies (real allies this time for realsies).
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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1013 on: July 22, 2016, 09:59:54 PM »
negotiate to those ends in future cost-share agreements

The cost-sharing has already been negotiated and it has been ignored. What you're calling for is forgiving these nations for not living up to the treaty, exactly what Trump is pointing out. These countries know that much of the current government doesn't mind that they don't pay their fair share. People like yourself don't mind. You consider their non-payment to be worth their supposed alliance. I don't. If a country can't defend itself and instead wants us to defend them instead, we should just annex their country or abandon it entirely. Clearly they don't consider their country to be in danger, right?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 10:02:20 PM by Rushy »

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1014 on: July 23, 2016, 03:29:40 AM »
negotiate to those ends in future cost-share agreements

The cost-sharing has already been negotiated and it has been ignored. What you're calling for is forgiving these nations for not living up to the treaty, exactly what Trump is pointing out. These countries know that much of the current government doesn't mind that they don't pay their fair share. People like yourself don't mind. You consider their non-payment to be worth their supposed alliance. I don't. If a country can't defend itself and instead wants us to defend them instead, we should just annex their country or abandon it entirely. Clearly they don't consider their country to be in danger, right?

none of what you're saying is very congruent with how nato funding works.  the nato common fund (the one to which member states contribute directly) is small.  the total us contribution to the common fund is ~$750 million, so there's virtually nothing to recoup there.

the 2% figure that your graphic cites is individual member nation defense spending as a percent of gdp.  that means there's nothing to recoup.  we're not gong to cut our own defense budget because albania or whatever decided to spend more.  trump is categorically wrong that we "[spend] trillions of dollars over time – on planes, missiles, ships, equipment – building up our military to provide a strong defense for Europe and Asia."  we spend trillions of dollars on our military to support our own national interests.  we support nato because it's in our national interest.  defending europeans is incidental.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1015 on: July 23, 2016, 05:34:19 AM »
If Trump wants to cut military spending, he should just say so.
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Offline beardo

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1016 on: July 23, 2016, 06:29:51 AM »
Leave him alone, he knows what he's doing. :(
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Offline Woody

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1017 on: July 23, 2016, 06:30:04 AM »
I can think of one good way to start a war with Russia. 

Say you might not live up to obligations agreed to by NATO.

Putin then wondering how the US will respond decides to take a little more of the Ukraine.  To test the waters.

If the US does not initially respond, he goes for more.  Then looks at other countries Russia can take.

If the US responds tension rises and relations worsen. Russia refuses to back down and return the land grabbed. Egos on both sides led to force being used.

Saying the US will live up to its obligation to members of NATO, answers Putin's question without the need to see what he can get away with.

It is disconcerting to me that a candidate for POTUS  has very little understanding of NATO.  It is not that they owe money, as others have already pointed out.  There is no obligation not being met. Just not meeting what some people came up with what they thought would be ideal on military spending.  The US will still spend what we think is needed on the military, just as other countries do.

 

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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1018 on: July 23, 2016, 09:09:07 AM »
we're not gong to cut our own defense budget because albania or whatever decided to spend more.
Please back this claim up. Otherwise, we'll be looking at an endless "no u" fest between you two. Right now it's "Yah huh, if our allies contribute more to our collective strength then we can contribute less without losing said collective strength" vs "NUH HUH THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE I PICKED A SMALL COUNTRY LIKE ALBANIA AND THAT'S FUNNY".

I can think of one good way to start a war with Russia.
But they're our ally!
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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1019 on: July 23, 2016, 03:06:47 PM »
negotiate to those ends in future cost-share agreements

The cost-sharing has already been negotiated and it has been ignored. What you're calling for is forgiving these nations for not living up to the treaty, exactly what Trump is pointing out. These countries know that much of the current government doesn't mind that they don't pay their fair share. People like yourself don't mind. You consider their non-payment to be worth their supposed alliance. I don't. If a country can't defend itself and instead wants us to defend them instead, we should just annex their country or abandon it entirely. Clearly they don't consider their country to be in danger, right?

none of what you're saying is very congruent with how nato funding works.  the nato common fund (the one to which member states contribute directly) is small.  the total us contribution to the common fund is ~$750 million, so there's virtually nothing to recoup there.

the 2% figure that your graphic cites is individual member nation defense spending as a percent of gdp.  that means there's nothing to recoup.  we're not gong to cut our own defense budget because albania or whatever decided to spend more.  trump is categorically wrong that we "[spend] trillions of dollars over time – on planes, missiles, ships, equipment – building up our military to provide a strong defense for Europe and Asia."  we spend trillions of dollars on our military to support our own national interests.  we support nato because it's in our national interest.  defending europeans is incidental.

By not spending the appropriate amount of funding on their military, they're opening themselves up to being attacked by outside forces, which then we have to intervene. An analogy would be you have car insurance and the insurance company says you must change your oil at least every 10,000 miles or your insurance claim might not be approved. You've chosen to change your oil every 25,000 miles instead, putting your engine and car at higher risk of damage. Assuming the company knows you did this, they'd dismiss any insurance claims you make because you neglected to handle your own risk profile.

These countries believe that since the US is backing them up, then they don't need to put forward an expected amount of their own people, equipment, or infrastructure to fight off enemies. Again, why should the US defend someone not even interested in defending themselves? If this is all about the US' best interest, then clearly we can do whatever we want without NATO since the other countries in NATO have an almost nonexistent military regardless.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 03:09:07 PM by Rushy »