[Rama Set]

There isn’t much to get. You’re just behaving like another “hurr durr the other side is evil” reductionist.

[Dr David Thork]

Collectivism is fine when applied to people who require help in society. A great example being children. They tend to be shit at most jobs and so we don't make them work any more. This means children don't have any money and it isn't their fault they don't earn any money. They can't realistically earn money. And everyone was at some point a child. So it seems entirely reasonable that everyone should get a free socialised education as a child, and you can start putting back into the system once you are old enough and repay society's investment in you. The same could be said of healthcare and dental for children. They need it, and its not their fault if they have terrible parents who can't earn a living or are dead or whatever. No question, socialism for kids is a great idea.

But socialism for adults is abhorrent. The world does not owe you a living. You had your childhood. Now its time to grow up and stand on your own two feet. Buy health insurance. Get a job. I don't care if your gangrenous foot drops off. Its not my problem. You're an adult. Look after yourself. I don't want to look after you. Stop demanding the government steals my money to make up for your shortcomings. 

Now, back to Biden and why only a pathetic sponge would vote for him.

[Rama Set]

Yeah sorry, I don’t want anyone to live in a world where medical bankruptcy is possible.

[Pete Svarrior]

(dumb alt-right comic)

nazi*

It's not a question of how much disavowing he does, or how many disavowals he makes. His initial response is what was criticized, and nothing he said after the fact changed what his initial response was.

Of course, it's never the question that was expressly asked. If Trump is asked to disavow racism, and then disavows it, then obviously that's not good enough. He should have done something else, something he hasn't done.

[Rama Set]

You understand that when someone disavows racism but then undermines his own comments by saying many of them a fine people, it’s good grounds to think he isn’t sincere?

[Pete Svarrior]

You understand that when someone disavows racism but then undermines his own comments by saying many of them a fine people, it’s good grounds to think he isn’t sincere?

Yes, and if you want to argue that he's done it insincerely, I have no issue with that.

What annoys me is people repeatedly demanding that he stands on a pedestal and says "racism bad", until he eventually caves in and says exactly that. Then the narrative shifts to "okay so he did say it but we didn't actually want him to say it, not like that".

If you think the man's a racist, then demanding that he says otherwise won't change anything. You'd practically be asking him to lie, and you're pretty much guaranteed to be unhappy with any response he makes.

[Dr David Thork]

Yeah sorry, I don’t want anyone to live in a world where medical bankruptcy is possible.

And I don't want to live in world where you never exercise, smoke 20 cigarettes a day, drink 6 litres of coke and have take away meals three times a day until you eat yourself up to the weight of a small family hatchback, and then have you pass me a share of your medical bills. BUY INSURANCE, YOU FAT BASTARD! 

[Rama Set]

That’s just throwing the baby out with the bath water. When you see that the cost of insurance plus taxes in the US is about par with taxes in Canada, there isn’t a strong economical argument for this. Not sure what taxation is like in the UK compared to North America.

[Tumeni]

And I don't want to live in world where you never exercise, smoke 20 cigarettes a day, drink 6 litres of coke and have take away meals three times a day until you eat yourself up to the weight of a small family hatchback, and then have you pass me a share of your medical bills.

... yet the income tax, excise duty, and VAT paid by the fat b*stard still goes to providing ambulance, hospital and similar for you should you happen to get sick or fall victim to assault, car accident or similar.

I take it you don't take out any form of insurance, then, on principle? No home or contents insurance, no motor insurance, health insurance, etc. ...?

[AATW]

But socialism for adults is abhorrent. The world does not owe you a living. You had your childhood. Now its time to grow up and stand on your own two feet. Buy health insurance. Get a job. I don't care if your gangrenous foot drops off. Its not my problem. You're an adult. Look after yourself. I don't want to look after you. Stop demanding the government steals my money to make up for your shortcomings. 

Right. I agree with you to an extent, although as always you've phrased things in a particularly Thorky way.
But there is no doubt that privilege exists. Not "white privilege", but in general.
The video you posted says Bob teleported across the river, implying he didn't have to do anything. That's obviously bollox.
I had to work hard to get my degree and career which has enabled me to buy quite a nice house. It wasn't just given to me.

But, and we've had this conversation before, I recognise that I had advantages from growing up in a stable home with 2 parents and while we weren't rolling in money we were comfortably off.
Dad made some investments for me which helped with the deposit on my first place and I'm old enough that I was able to scramble on the property ladder before the bottom rung went out of reach and that enabled me to take the step up to the place I have now. Kids starting out now have no chance.

You gave some stats about how much black people earn in the US, I had a look and while you're right, that's only 2/3rds of what white people earn. Boo! Racism! Right?
Well no, because Asians in the US earn more than whites, on average. Because they have a real culture of working hard and there's lots of family pressure for them to succeed.
The issue for black people in the US is historic racism means that, on average, their starting point is lower. So while in theory the opportunities for them are the same as for anyone, in practice it's not as easy for them to climb the ladder, they have further to climb, statistically speaking.

[Dr David Thork]

So while in theory the opportunities for them are the same as for anyone, in practice it's not as easy for them to climb the ladder, they have further to climb, statistically speaking.

Well boohoo. 😭

My father abandoned my family when I was 14 and he was dead by the time I was 21. My family was not well off (my mother was an air hostess) and no fairy godmother gave me a wedge of cash. I started, by your metrics, in a far worse position than you did. But because I'm white you don't give a shit about balancing that inequality. In fact you want to take what I have earned and potentially give it to the children of wealthy black folks who couldn't be bothered to work. Giving advantages to any race is a rotten policy and it is why the dems need to die. Come back with a policy for all Americans. Not just the brown and black ones.

[Rama Set]

So while in theory the opportunities for them are the same as for anyone, in practice it's not as easy for them to climb the ladder, they have further to climb, statistically speaking.

Well boohoo. 😭

My father abandoned my family when I was 14 and he was dead by the time I was 21. My family was not well off (my mother was an air hostess) and no fairy godmother gave me a wedge of cash. I started, by your metrics, in a far worse position than you did. But because I'm white you don't give a shit about balancing that inequality. In fact you want to take what I have earned and potentially give it to the children of wealthy black folks who couldn't be bothered to work. Giving advantages to any race is a rotten policy and it is why the dems need to die. Come back with a policy for all Americans. Not just the brown and black ones.

Classic mistake of thinking anecdotes is the singular of data.

Back to your abhorrence of socialism, I’m wondering if you also abhor socialized law enforcement, fire department and civil legal system?

[Dr David Thork]

Back to your abhorrence of socialism, I’m wondering if you also abhor socialized law enforcement, fire department and civil legal system?

No, yes, no ... in that order. Get you own fire insurance. It should be like car insurance ... mandatory with a building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_insurance_mark

You can also socialise the military. And that's it. Don't ask me for a penny more.

[AATW]

My father abandoned my family when I was 14 and he was dead by the time I was 21.

So? In the Covid thread you weren't interested when I started talking anecdotally about some people's experiences of getting the disease, why do you think I'd care about your anecdotes?
I'm interested in data and statistics.

I started, by your metrics, in a far worse position than you did. But because I'm white you don't give a shit about balancing that inequality. In fact you want to take what I have earned and potentially give it to the children of wealthy black folks who couldn't be bothered to work.

I literally have no idea how you got any of that from what I said. I simply think getting people from disadvantaged homes more help is a good thing.
I don't care what race they are. Statistically, any policy in the US which helps disadvantaged people would happen to help more black people.
Not because they're black but because black families tend to be poorer. And that's because of all kinds of historic racism which we can't fix now.
What we can do is try and help poorer people, no matter their race, so that their hard work is more likely to yield a good outcome.

I don't believe in positive discrimination - that is an oxymoron, discrimination is discrimination. I don't believe in "quotas". That's some racist bullshit right there.
I don't want to go for a job and not get it because the other guy is black and they have some quota to fill - I doubt he'd want that either.
Give me a job on merit, or give him it on merit depending on who is better.

[Dr David Thork]

Why do you believe that all poor people need is a little help? They are poor because they are stupid, or lazy, or drug addicts. You just told me you don't care about individual cases. Well the vast majority of the unemployed are unemployed because they choose to be ... so fuck 'em.

An intersting article finishes with the conclusion

So all of my four research projects delivered findings consistent with the view that many unemployed people prefer living on benefits to undertaking jobs which would increase their income, but which they consider unattractive. This has not emerged to anything like the same extent before in social policy empirical literature, and this, I think, is because the vast majority of authors are left-of-centre.

[Rama Set]

Why do you believe that all poor people need is a little help? They are poor because they are stupid, or lazy, or drug addicts.

Apparently you can be stupid and not poor.  You can also be smart and not rich.  You can also work hard and be poor.  It's astounding how myopic your view of the world is.

An intersting article finishes with the conclusion

So all of my four research projects delivered findings consistent with the view that many unemployed people prefer living on benefits to undertaking jobs which would increase their income, but which they consider unattractive. This has not emerged to anything like the same extent before in social policy empirical literature, and this, I think, is because the vast majority of authors are left-of-centre.

There is also evidence that if you provide social assistance that it's effective at reducing unemployment.  This blogger is addressing other conclusions without rebutting the data, but simply by positing an opinion about them.  Not very convincing.

No, yes, no ... in that order. Get you own fire insurance. It should be like car insurance ... mandatory with a building.

So if someone's house burns down, taking yours with it, because there is no fire department, you are cool with that?  Why are you ok with law enforcement being publicly funded?  You aren't committing crimes, so it's money from your pocket for no reason, and you clearly aren't concerned with property protection or you would be in favor of a fire department.  Just get a gun and defend yourself.  It would save you money.  Why are you in favor of a civic legal system?  Shouldn't you want the government to stay out of your business rather than having the ability to impose their beliefs and values on you?

You can also socialise the military. And that's it. Don't ask me for a penny more.

Why are you socializing the military?

[Dr David Thork]

So if someone's house burns down, taking yours with it, because there is no fire department, you are cool with that?

I'm expecting them to do a 5 year stretch for not buying the mandatory fire cover and I'm insured anyway so whatever.

Why are you ok with law enforcement being publicly funded?

Because I want my stuff protected from ruffians. Everyone requires security from crime so crime prevention gets socialised. You can't have people hiring private armies. That's a recipe for mafias and warlords.

Why are you in favor of a civic legal system?

A fundamental tenant of western civilisation is that you have the right to council. This prevents people with lots of money just destroying poor people with baseless accusations in the courts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_counsel
You don't have the right to sit on your backside all day getting paid for that out of my tax contributions. I have said this in about 10 ways now. Why are you so hard of learning? Welfare is abhorrent. I don't like welfare. Most of our money goes on welfare. It's a waste. I want to stop the welfare. What has legal representation or police cover got to do with welfare?

Why are you socializing the military?

See private armies above. Also without a large national army, the vikings would come and take all our stuff again. That's why we formed England in the first place, rather than having about 25 separate kingdoms.

[Rama Set]

So if someone's house burns down, taking yours with it, because there is no fire department, you are cool with that?

I'm expecting them to do a 5 year stretch for not buying the mandatory fire cover and I'm insured anyway so whatever.

Putting aside that you obviously aren't considering how incredibly traumatic and disruptive having your house burn down would be, have you considered that it could kill you as well?

Why are you ok with law enforcement being publicly funded?

Because I want my stuff protected from ruffians. Everyone requires security from crime so crime prevention gets socialised. You can't have people hiring private armies. That's a recipe for mafias and warlords.

But gun ownership is apparently the solution to civil disorder.  You need to talk to the NRA.  Now, why do you want people to pay to protect your property from people, but not fires?  How about you stay consistent in your beliefs or try to explain the massive discrepancy.

A fundamental tenant of western civilisation is that you have the right to council. This prevents people with lots of money just destroying poor people with baseless accusations in the courts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_counsel
You don't have the right to sit on your backside all day getting paid for that out of my tax contributions. I have said this in about 10 ways now. Why are you so hard of learning? Welfare is abhorrent. I don't like welfare. Most of our money goes on welfare. It's a waste. I want to stop the welfare. What has legal representation or police cover got to do with welfare?

A civil court is a way of redistributing wealth for injustices decided by the government.  That is a form of socialism, which you called evil.  You have also said numerous times that you want the government to stay out of your life, but now suddenly it's fine.  You need to go rethink your rhetoric. 

See private armies above. Also without a large national army, the vikings would come and take all our stuff again. That's why we formed England in the first place, rather than having about 25 separate kingdoms.

Cool, you like some forms of collectivism.

[Dr David Thork]

Putting aside that you obviously aren't considering how incredibly traumatic and disruptive having your house burn down would be, have you considered that it could kill you as well?

That's not how it worked. Why don't you ever read the links provided to you? My fire company would just put out my neighbours fire and invoice them. That's how it worked with the uninsured.

But gun ownership is apparently the solution to civil disorder.  You need to talk to the NRA.  Now, why do you want people to pay to protect your property from people, but not fires?  How about you stay consistent in your beliefs or try to explain the massive discrepancy.

Learn how fire insurance worked.

A civil court is a way of redistributing wealth for injustices decided by the government.  That is a form of socialism, which you called evil.  You have also said numerous times that you want the government to stay out of your life, but now suddenly it's fine.  You need to go rethink your rhetoric. 

Court is not government. Court is the legal system. We need law and order ... oh wait, I'm talking to a leftist.  We don't need the unemployed.

Cool, you like some forms of collectivism.

I already said that 2 pages ago. What I don't like is the welfare state.

[AATW]

Why do you believe that all poor people need is a little help? They are poor because they are stupid, or lazy, or drug addicts.

No, they aren't. Stop reading the Daily Mail and watching Benefits Street.

Yes, some people are lazy and prefer to sit on their arses. I don't think that should be encouraged. And I don't think it's as common as some people make out.

As a general principle I'd suggest everyone deserves the same opportunities in life. In practise that's never going to happen. I was never going to go to Eton and it's no coincidence that people who do tend to get further in life. They're not smarter than me, they don't work harder. They just start with a massive advantage over me.

It's impossible to completely level the playing field, but any policies which help to do that are a good thing.

And this is nothing to do with employment. You can be employed in this country and struggling. I know I just told you to stop reading the Daily Mail but it's the first article I found. Basically, people born into wealthy families tend to earn more than people who weren't:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6261249/Children-wealthy-parents-successful-gifted-kids-born-low-income-families.html