[douglips]

Folks, slow the heck down. I kind of think I broke this wide open on the other Q&A thread.

There exists a website you can go to to get crowdsourced photovoltaic generation data.

You might have to sign up for an account to see all the pages, they limit how many pages an individual person can see because it's got to be a fairly expensive website to host.

From that site you can find solar installations all over the place.

Here's one in Enschede Netherlands, where on 22 September of this year it was predicted that sunrise would be 7:18 AM, and sunset 7:30 PM.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20170922
In case they rate limit all of you people from hitting their website and melting it, here's the data from near sunrise:
22/09/17   7:30AM   0.003kWh   0.001kWh/kW   15W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:25AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   4W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:20AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:15AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   -   -   -   -   -   -   


And here's the data from near sunset:
22/09/17   7:30PM   10.954kWh   3.580kWh/kW   2W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:25PM   10.953kWh   3.579kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:20PM   10.953kWh   3.579kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:15PM   10.953kWh   3.579kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:10PM   10.953kWh   3.579kWh/kW   11W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:05PM   10.952kWh   3.579kWh/kW   22W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:00PM   10.951kWh   3.579kWh/kW   33W   24W   0.008kW/kW   -   -   -   -   

The "Teams" feature on that page gives you a great way to find different locations. For example, here's someone in Australia:
https://www.pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=5847&sid=4691
Clicking "map" shows this guy is in Cairns.
timeanddate.com says 6:06 AM and 6:12 PM for sunrise/sunset.

Sunrise:
22/09/17   6:40AM   0.048kWh   0.009kWh/kW   252W   192W   0.036kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   6:30AM   0.016kWh   0.003kWh/kW   96W   78W   0.014kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   6:20AM   0.003kWh   0.001kWh/kW   36W   -   -   -   -   -   -   

Sunset:
22/09/17   6:00PM   21.648kWh   4.005kWh/kW   12W   24W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   5:50PM   21.644kWh   4.004kWh/kW   60W   66W   0.012kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   5:40PM   21.633kWh   4.002kWh/kW   96W   120W   0.022kW/kW   -   -   -   -   

OK, so we have Netherlands and Australia, both with 12 hour days.

But Cairns is kind of North, so let's try South Australia.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=3332&sid=2590&dt=20170922
Millicent, Australia, 37 degrees south latitude.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@2157652?month=9&year=2017
Predicted sunrise/sunset:
5:58 - 6:04

Sunrise data:
22/09/17   6:30AM   0.029kWh   0.009kWh/kW   180W   180W   0.055kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:25AM   0.014kWh   0.004kWh/kW   96W   96W   0.029kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:20AM   0.006kWh   0.002kWh/kW   48W   48W   0.015kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:15AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   24W   -   -   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   

Sunset data:
22/09/17   6:05PM   14.725kWh   4.476kWh/kW   -   -   -   20.8C   -   1.192kWh   484W   
22/09/17   6:00PM   14.725kWh   4.476kWh/kW   -   -   -   20.9C   -   1.158kWh   465W   
22/09/17   5:55PM   14.725kWh   4.476kWh/kW   -   -   -   21.0C   -   1.116kWh   938W   
22/09/17   5:50PM   14.725kWh   4.476kWh/kW   -   -   -   21.0C   -   1.067kWh   655W   
22/09/17   5:45PM   14.725kWh   4.476kWh/kW   12W   12W   0.004kW/kW   21.1C   -   1.019kWh   1,159W   
22/09/17   5:40PM   14.724kWh   4.475kWh/kW   12W   12W   0.004kW/kW   21.1C   -   0.959kWh   492W   
22/09/17   5:35PM   14.723kWh   4.475kWh/kW   24W   24W   0.007kW/kW   21.2C   -   0.917kWh   636W   

These things all show a bit of a lag from sunrise to the point where power is actually flowing off of the panels, and they lose power before sunset, but it's clear that power is generated for about 11.5 hours in all these places.

This website has approximately a million such locations recorded.

Now that we have millions of independent observations of equinox actually meaning equinox, can we move on to the next thing, please?

It's also clear by looking at other dates, that timeanddate.com sunrise and sunset times are accurately predicted. Can we stop questioning that as well please?

[3DGeek]

Who? I'm referring to four people whom I know, none of which post on these forums. One in the UK, one in Ireland, one in Australia, and one on the West coast USA.

Let's try this again. I'll go slow. What. Is. Your. Standard. For. Evidence. Of. Timeanddates. Accuracy?

Real records of observations by independent observers are required. "Werks for me and my friends" is not a sufficient response.

So me and my friends can't be counted as independent observers?   Who can?   You don't seem to trust any astronomers, NASA people, map makers, etc.

Who will you trust to make these observations?

We generally accept evidence from all  sources.

Over the years we have seen evidence that NASA and co. seem to be running a phony space program, however, and so a source from them will be looked at in a dim light.

So why do you reject the evidence of "me and my friends"?

[Mark_1984]

Tom, why don’t you check the times for sunrise and sunset at your own location, and verify them for yourself ?  You’ll find the predictions accurate.  I think it’s safe to assume that timeanddate.com don’t know your location, so haven’t fiddled the numbers just to convince you.

As an aside, seafarers have had these predictions available for years and years in the Nautical Almanac.  Long before the invention of computers and the internet, and have used them to navigate successfully.

[3DGeek]

There exists a website you can go to to get crowdsourced photovoltaic generation data.

...
These things all show a bit of a lag from sunrise to the point where power is actually flowing off of the panels, and they lose power before sunset, but it's clear that power is generated for about 11.5 hours in all these places.

This website has approximately a million such locations recorded.

Now that we have millions of independent observations of equinox actually meaning equinox, can we move on to the next thing, please?

This is PERFECT!   Very clever!   I tip my virtual hat to you!

So now we have EXACTLY the kind of evidence that Tom seems to be demanding.   Actual scientific measurements of when the sun was or was not above the horizon at a bunch of different places.

Hence we can now prove the angle of the sun above the horizon for any date we choose using Lambert's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert%27s_cosine_law).

Ooohhh Tom's not going to like the consequences of THAT!   We can blow huge holes in all sorts of his crazy ideas from there!

(Not least "magic perspective"!)

@Tom: See my signature, below!

[douglips]

I think the most interesting aspect of this is that these people don't care about flat earth or round earth, they just want to generate photovoltaic power and share data about it.

It just so happens that they've accidentally installed solar observatories all over the world and connected them up to the internet.

So there can't be any motivation question about whether they're in the conspiracy or whatnot, they just want to generate power.

[3DGeek]

I think the most interesting aspect of this is that these people don't care about flat earth or round earth, they just want to generate photovoltaic power and share data about it.

It just so happens that they've accidentally installed solar observatories all over the world and connected them up to the internet.

So there can't be any motivation question about whether they're in the conspiracy or whatnot, they just want to generate power.

Oh - don't worry, they'll soon end up in the "conspiracy theory" bucket.   Actually, I've recently been accused of being a part of the conspiracy too.  I'm hoping they'll know which government agency I should be applying to to claim my "hush money"...as you can tell, I have been working VERY hard to hide the fact that the Earth is flat!

  ^^^^ This is a joke...OK?

[3DGeek]

I just created an account with PVoutput.org - and gave them a $15 donation to get full access to their service.

Here is what they are:

* An Australian website that collects and records real-time data from "photovoltaic" power generation sites around the world.  Basically they can tell you how much energy each of about a million sites is collecting right this minute - or at any time in the past.

* Because they start generating power from about 15 minutes after sunrise until 15 minutes before sunset - we can figure out the sunrise and sunset times  for any of a million places in the world on any day of the year we choose.  Even on a cloudy day, they generate SOME power.

* These are not just government sites (although some are) - mostly they are small businesses and individuals with solar panels on the roofs of their homes that have appropriate internet power monitoring.

* Each location has a country and a zip-code - as well as a location on a map.

So using this, we have direct evidence of sunrise and sunset times.

We can use this data to demonstrate CONCLUSIVELY that the equinox is a real thing.   It can no longer be denied.

So...having demolished Tom's original objection - and his demand for good data - we're back to the original thread.

Neither the unipolar nor bipolar maps can explain the location of the sun on the equinox.

The Earth is therefore Round.

[douglips]

I'm still waiting to hear what "direct proof" would consist of. I was looking for a video of the sunrise and a PV power meter but I can't find any such thing.
Would one person with solar panels be able to confirm when power starts flowing with respect to sunrise? Or does every individual have to do it? Does this still not count because there are oceans where there are no PV installations?

[GiantTurtle]

Tom, why don’t you check the times for sunrise and sunset at your own location, and verify them for yourself ?  You’ll find the predictions accurate.

He wants the records from people who read clocks for an official body.

[3DGeek]

Tom, why don’t you check the times for sunrise and sunset at your own location, and verify them for yourself ?  You’ll find the predictions accurate.

He wants the records from people who read clocks for an official body.

...because all official bodies can get dumped into the giant conspiracy bucket if all else fails...yeah.  Smart!

[douglips]

Hey, what about this?
I'm a pilot who lives in California, and I regularly check the sunrise and sunset times on timeanddate.com, and often am flying right at sunset or sunrise. I therefore have personally confirmed with about N=100 that time and date sunrise and sunset times are accurate for the San Francisco bay area, and for the LA Basin, and for Las Vegas (just east of California) and for the Lake Tahoe region. So I have personally validated the predictions of timeanddate.com for California.

timeanddate.com for Eureka:
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/eureka
Predicted sunrise on 10 November: 6:58 AM
Predicted sunset: 5:02 PM

Needles:
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@5376358
Predicted Sunrise 6:08 AM
Predicted Sunset 4:36 PM

So, we have a 50 minute bound for predicted sunrise over the entire state of California, and a 30 minute bound for predicted sunset.

If you look at CalISO's output graph, you can see renewables:
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html#Renewables
Here's a snapshot of 10-November-2017's renewables graph, the curve for solar starts ramping up at about 6:20 AM, and finishes ramping down by 5 PM.
EDIT: I left out this  image link:
https://imgur.com/a/VMJpg


No matter where you look, you can't find an error of more than 15-20 minutes.

So everywhere on earth, you get ABOUT 12 hours of sunlight on the equinox.

How exact does it have to be before you admit that this global phenomenon "equinox" which is NAMED FOR WHAT IT IS, ACTUALLY IS WHAT IT IS?

[devils advocate]

Thanks 3DGeek and douglips, this is fantastic real world evidence, untainted and not American-centric thus well out of the NASA get-out clause. Great stuff!! 

[3DGeek]

Thanks 3DGeek and douglips, this is fantastic real world evidence, untainted and not American-centric thus well out of the NASA get-out clause. Great stuff!! 

Please - don't thank me!  Thanks are solely due to doublips for an astoundingly useful breakthrough.

If anyone else can think of any similar web sites, that would be extremely useful.

[devils advocate]

Thanks 3DGeek and douglips, this is fantastic real world evidence, untainted and not American-centric thus well out of the NASA get-out clause. Great stuff!! 

Please - don't thank me!  Thanks are solely due to doublips for an astoundingly useful breakthrough.

Well you started the thread and Douglips gave us further iron proof. No-Homo you guys are fucking awesome. The fact that it's only Tom daring to touch this one says it all; FE have hung out the sacrificial lamb again!

Proof of the equinox has been delivered, proof that the equinox cannot be explained by either FE map has been delivered so its back to the grindstone FE, find us a map that fits with our empirical observations please.

 

[Rounder]

This is PERFECT!   Very clever!   I tip my virtual hat to you!
So now we have EXACTLY the kind of evidence that Tom seems to be demanding.   Actual scientific measurements of when the sun was or was not above the horizon at a bunch of different places.

Proof of the equinox has been delivered, proof that the equinox cannot be explained by either FE map has been delivered so its back to the grindstone FE, find us a map that fits with our empirical observations please.

I am just as impressed with the quality of this evidence as the rest of the RE participants in this thread, but I think celebrations are premature.  The fact that on the day of the equinox one observes equal length day and night periods everywhere in the world has been known for literally thousands of years, but nevertheless that hasn't been enough for Tom.  I don't know why anybody thinks this new evidence will turn the tide. 

All it really does is confirm the RE position to those already on the RE side, and presents new evidence that must be explained away by the FE side.  I look forward to those explanations.

[devils advocate]

I am just as impressed with the quality of this evidence as the rest of the RE participants in this thread, but I think celebrations are premature.  The fact that on the day of the equinox one observes equal length day and night periods everywhere in the world has been known for literally thousands of years, but nevertheless that hasn't been enough for Tom.  I don't know why anybody thinks this new evidence will turn the tide. 

All it really does is confirm the RE position to those already on the RE side, and presents new evidence that must be explained away by the FE side.  I look forward to those explanations.

Watcha Rounder,

Yeah I agree that the chance of turing the tide is minimal HOWEVER, it does take away one of Tom's key deflections; "where's the proof" (for what we all see everyday/monthly/annually etc) at least this should get us back on track on FE answering the question rather than stalling on dubious points within.

[Tom Bishop]

Douglips, why are you posting this in multiple threads? I have already responded to you in the other thread you posted.

You are ignoring the existence of twilight and believe that any light seen is from direct sunlight.

Your data does not really make any sense. Look at what you posted:

Here's one in Enschede Netherlands, where on 22 September of this year it was predicted that sunrise would be 7:18 AM, and sunset 7:30 PM.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20170922
In case they rate limit all of you people from hitting their website and melting it, here's the data from near sunrise:
22/09/17   7:30AM   0.003kWh   0.001kWh/kW   15W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:25AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   4W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:20AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:15AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   -   -   -   -   -   -   
...

But Cairns is kind of North, so let's try South Australia.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=3332&sid=2590&dt=20170922
Millicent, Australia, 37 degrees south latitude.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@2157652?month=9&year=2017
Predicted sunrise/sunset:
5:58 - 6:04

Sunrise data:
22/09/17   6:30AM   0.029kWh   0.009kWh/kW   180W   180W   0.055kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:25AM   0.014kWh   0.004kWh/kW   96W   96W   0.029kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:20AM   0.006kWh   0.002kWh/kW   48W   48W   0.015kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:15AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   24W   -   -   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   - 

15 minutes after sunrise Netherlands reads 0.004kW/kW and 15 minutes after sunrise Australia reads 0.042kWh. Why the big difference? So where is the sun really? How do we know that these either of these areas were not experiencing twilight?

[Tom Bishop]

Furthermore, your data does not even show a full 12 hour days. You assert that "it's clear that power is generated for about 11.5 hours in all these places." This is a clear discrepancy to the Round Earth model. Aside from the fact that you do not consider twilight in your assertion, the sun is supposed to be above the horizon for a full 12 hours according to the calculators. What gives?

[douglips]

Which is it? Does power get generated by twilight, or does power not get generated for a few minutes after sunrise?

If it's consistent at every latitude, that still tells you something about what the equinox is.

How about at the next equinox, you and I can go outside and validate the predicted timeanddate.com sunrise and sunset times, and we can get someone with solar panels to show us their production curve, and we'll have some actual data about how solar panels behave?

[Mark_1984]

Douglips, why are you posting this in multiple threads? I have already responded to you in the other thread you posted.

You are ignoring the existence of twilight and believe that any light seen is from direct sunlight.

Your data does not really make any sense. Look at what you posted:

Here's one in Enschede Netherlands, where on 22 September of this year it was predicted that sunrise would be 7:18 AM, and sunset 7:30 PM.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=37744&sid=34523&dt=20170922
In case they rate limit all of you people from hitting their website and melting it, here's the data from near sunrise:
22/09/17   7:30AM   0.003kWh   0.001kWh/kW   15W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:25AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   4W   12W   0.004kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:20AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   0W   0.000kW/kW   -   -   -   -   
22/09/17   7:15AM   0.001kWh   0.000kWh/kW   0W   -   -   -   -   -   -   
...

But Cairns is kind of North, so let's try South Australia.
https://www.pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=3332&sid=2590&dt=20170922
Millicent, Australia, 37 degrees south latitude.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@2157652?month=9&year=2017
Predicted sunrise/sunset:
5:58 - 6:04

Sunrise data:
22/09/17   6:30AM   0.029kWh   0.009kWh/kW   180W   180W   0.055kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:25AM   0.014kWh   0.004kWh/kW   96W   96W   0.029kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:20AM   0.006kWh   0.002kWh/kW   48W   48W   0.015kW/kW   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   -   
22/09/17   6:15AM   0.002kWh   0.001kWh/kW   24W   -   -   19.7C   -   0.042kWh   - 

15 minutes after sunrise Netherlands reads 0.004kW/kW and 15 minutes after sunrise Australia reads 0.042kWh. Why the big difference? So where is the sun really? How do we know that these either of these areas were not experiencing twilight?

Tom, you’re showing a lack of understanding of solar cells.  Different sized farms, different efficiencies, different latitudes will all give different levels of power generated. The key data is when the power generated rises above 0. This dictates the start of dawn.

Anyway, like I said before, go stick your head out of the window and check the time of sunrise and sunset yourself, and compare the with the on line data.  Or perhaps you think there is some conspiracy to make your watch at different speeds at different times of the day ?